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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 1947

Vol. 34 No. 11

Superannuation Bill, 1947 ( Certified Money Bill )— Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The object of this Bill is to provide for the adjustment of Civil Service superannuation awards granted during the period in which Civil Service salaries were subject to the Civil Service (Stabilisation of Bonus) Regulations.

Civil Service salaries were stabilised at a cost-of-living figure of 185 from the 1st July, 1940, to the 31st December, 1944, and at 210 from the 1st January, 1945, with certain modifications which allowed of the payment of emergency bonus. All superannuation awards made during these two periods were in the first instance calculated by reference to whichever of these figures applied at the time. The Emergency Powers (No. 354) Order, 1945, permitted the pensions of those who retired in the second half of 1940 to be adjusted to a bonus figure of 205—the then actual cost-of-living figure—and those awarded from 1941 to the end of 1944 to a bonus figure of 210—the adjusted pensions becoming payable as from the 1st January, 1945. The Order contained a clause prohibiting the adjustment of the lump sum and gratuity awards. Awards of pensions, lump sums and gratuities made during the remainder of the stabilisation period, that is, from 1st January, 1945, to the 31st October, 1946, have been assessed on the basis of a cost-of-living figure of 210. Awards since the 1st November, 1946, have been related to the new consolidated salary rates.

I propose in this Bill to provide for two things: first, for the adjustment of pensions as on and from the 1st November, 1946, in relation to the cost-of-living figure appropriate at the date of retirement on pension subject to the limitation that in no case will the pension be readjusted by reference to a cost-of-living figure higher than 270 which is the figure by reference to which Civil Service salaries have been consolidated; secondly, for the setting aside of the prohibition in the Emerand gratuity awards and the adjustment of all statutory awards of lump sums and gratuities made since the 1st July, 1940, on the same basis as the pensions adjustment.

I can perhaps best illustrate the effects of the Bill by indicating the bonus figures by reference to which the pensions, lump sums and gratuities covered by the Bill will be adjusted.

Awards in respect of the period 1st July, 1940, to 31st December, 1943, will be adjusted to the appropriate actual cost-of-living figure as follows:—

2nd half of year

1940

205

1st ,,,,

1941

210

2nd,,,,

1941

220

1st ,,,,

1942

230

2nd,,,,

1942

235

1st ,,,,

1943

260

2nd,,,,

1943

270

The pensions awarded in the second half of the year 1940 and the first half of the year 1941 have been already adjusted to the appropriate actual cost-of-living figure under the Emergency Powers (No. 354) Order, 1945. The provisions of the Bill will therefore operate in these cases only to adjust the lump sum and gratuity awards.

The actual cost-of-living figure for each of the half-yearly periods from 31st December, 1943, to 31st October, 1946, was over 270 and accordingly the pensions, lump sums and gratuities awards in respect of this period will be adjusted to the figure of 270 on which consolidation of salaries was finally based.

I may add that apart from the benefits provided in the Bill I have directed that the lump sum and gratuity awards which fall to be adjusted under the Bill will be calculated by reference to 100 per cent. of the appropriate bonus. The practice since 1921 has been to reckon only 75 per cent. of the bonus in the calculation of lump sum and gratuity awards. This practice was modified as from the 1st January, 1944, in the case of awards made after that date. I propose to extend this concession to apply to the awards made from the date of bonus stabilisation, that is, from the 1st July, 1940. Furthermore, it is not intended that these revised awards should be subject to variation by reference to any future changes in the cost-of-living index figure.

The Minister for Justice intends to introduce a Bill to provide for the adjustment of Garda Síochána pensions on the same lines as those contained in this Bill.

This Bill is designed to remedy, and I gladly recognise that it does remedy in very substantial measure, the injustice inflicted by the stabilisation of the bonus on retired civil servants who were superannuated during the stabilisation period, i.e., between 1st July, 1940, and 31st October, 1946. The effect of Section 2, which is the main section, and which may be said to embody the principle governing the other provisions of the Bill, is to provide that, as from the 1st November, 1946, a retired civil servant shall receive the pension which he would have been receiving if there had been no stabilisation, subject to one limitation viz: that in calculating his revised pension the cost-of-living index must be taken to be not more than 270, i.e. 170 per cent. above the index as at July, 1914. We know that, even after making allowance for the reductions recently effected in the prices of flour, bread, tea and sugar, the index figure is still over 300; but I am not objecting to the adoption of the figure of 270 for the purpose of the Bill. As Senators will, probably, be aware, the Minister has recently effected an arrangement with serving civil servants for consolidation of their salaries, that is to say, the bonus has been abolished and absorbed into the salary, new scales of salary being fixed. In determining the new scales, an index figure of 270 was, after discussion with the service associations, adopted, and it is reasonable that the same index figure should be adopted for the purpose of determining pensions. My criticism of the Bill is that it does nothing whatever for the older pensioners, many of them very advanced in years and all of them hard hit by the high cost of living. It appears to me that, as a matter of simple justice, these older men who retired before July, 1940, should come within the scope of this Bill. In order to explain why I hold this view, it will be necessary to explain the nature of the so-called "bonus" and the nature of the pension and to refer to the British Acts under which civil servants become entitled to pensions.

Speaking in this House on the 17th July, 1946 (Official Debates, column 765) I said :—

"The Civil Service bonus is not a bonus in the sense in which we ordinarily understand the term ‘bonus' in the business world. It is simply a sliding scale adjustment by reference to variations in the purchasing power of money calculated by reference to the cost-of-living index. All basic salaries of civil servants in this country are still fixed in terms of 1914 monetary values and an addition to the salary, computed by reference to changes in the cost of living and called a ‘bonus' is paid to the officer. The bonus takes full cognisance of such changes only in the case of the lowest paid officers and is progressively scaled down as the basic salary rises."

Now, what is the pension? Payment of pensions to retired employees of the larger concerns in the world of business is nowadays quite usual. In some cases, the cost of pensions is met wholly by the employer. In some cases, a superannuation fund is created, to which both the employer and the employees contribute, and pensions are paid out of this fund. But, in all cases, the arrangement is simply a matter of business. There is no element of charity or philanthropy involved. The fact that a pension will be payable is held out to the candidate for employment as a valuable consideration for his services and, in one way or another, that fact is reflected in the salary paid to him during his service. If there were no prospect of a pension, his salary would be higher. If there is going to be a pension, that fact will be taken into account both by the employer and the employee when fixing the scale of salary. The pension, therefore, is simply further pay for past services and is of precisely the same nature as the salary paid to an employee during his period of active service. I do not imagine the Minister will differ from me on this point. He is, no doubt, aware of the view of the Revenue Commissioners on the subject of pensions. When dealing with a business concern which, by contract or established custom, pays pensions to retired employees, the commissioners regard such payments, and also normal annual payments by an employer to a duly constituted superannuation fund, as ordinary business expenses of precisely the same nature as wages and salaries and, therefore, admissible as proper deductions in determining the trading profit of the concern. Similarly, in the hands of the pensioner, his pension, under the provisions of the Income Tax Act of 1918, ranks as earned income—income earned in the past—and he is entitled to earned income relief when his pension is being assessed.

Civil Service pensions are, in the main, still governed by the provisions of the Superannuation Act of 1859 and the Superannuation Act of 1909. The Act of 1859 provided for the grant of a pension equal to one-sixtieth of the retiring officer's salary and emoluments for each year of approved service, subject to a maximum of forty-sixtieths (or two-thirds) for 40 years' service. The 1909 Act continued the chief provisions of the 1859 Act, but, for future male entrants, it substituted an annual pension of one-eightieth for each year of approved service subject to a maximum of forty-eightieths, plus a lump sum on retirement. Existing civil servants were allowed to elect to be superannuated under the provisions of the 1909 Act if they signified their election at once and it may be assumed that all those with whom we are concerned did so elect and, therefore, that, apart from what is or may subsequently be put into this Bill, the maximum pension any of them can receive at any time is a pension equal to half the annual remuneration he was receiving when he retired. This has come to be known as the "overriding maximum". It is most important, however, to bear in mind that, when the Acts of 1859 and 1909 were passed, economic conditions were completely stable. There were no appreciable variations in the cost of living and the provisions of the Acts, in the circumstances then prevailing, were perfectly fair and equitable. Then came the 1914-1918 War and the cost of living rose steadily. After some very half-hearted attempts to mitigate the hardships inflicted on civil servants by the reduction in the purchasing power of money, this so-called bonus scheme was introduced when the cost-of-living index was 230, i.e., 130 per cent. above the figure as at July, 1914. In November, 1920, it was 276 and it then started to drop.

The bonus was regarded as a normal part of the remuneration of a civil servant, as, in fact, it was, and, therefore, had to be taken into account when fixing the pension of the retiring officer. But, as the index figure started to fall as from November, 1920, and it was obvious that it would continue to fall the British Treasury decided that only 75 per cent. of it should be taken into account for the purpose of computing pensions. The practice had always been that, once a pension had been awarded, the amount of it was never varied. The Acts contained no provision for any variation. A pensioner might lose his pension if he were guilty of certain offences against the law but, as long as he behaved as a law-abiding citizen, his pension was regarded as sacrosanct.

In 1921, when the cost of living was still high but was showing signs of a continuous fall, staffs were being reduced and, in addition to the ordinary retirements under the age limit, officers were being encouraged to retire on abolition terms—i.e. with added years of service. In these circumstances, the commercial interests in England took the view that the fixed pensions being granted constituted an unreasonable burden on the Exchequer and pressed for an alteration in the practice. After resisting any change for some time, the Government finally gave way and on the 21st February, 1922, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury announced in the House of Commons that, in the case of civil servants who retired as from that date, pensions would be computed by taking into account the full amount of the bonus but would be varied periodically by reference to variations in the cost of living. In reply to questions, he made it quite clear that the pensions would be increased as well as reduced. He said that every pension granted in future—I am quoting his words—would be—

"granted on such a basis that it shall be brought by periodic reassessment into relation with the cost of living."

He also said that a scientific scheme based on the cost of living must allow for "bilateral movement".

This scheme as outlined by the responsible Minister, and accepted by the House of Commons, was perfectly fair. It guaranteed the pensioner that the real value of his pension would not vary. On the other hand, it guaranteed the Exchequer against having to pay an unreasonably large pension at a time when, owing to a continuing fall in the cost of living, the purchasing power of money would have increased. If the Minister's undertakings had been implemented, much hardship to elderly pensioners in this country would have been avoided and I should not have been compelled to take up the time of the House to-day. Unfortunately, they were implemented only in a partial and one-sided fashion, with the result that the Exchequer got its guarantee, but the pensioner did not get his.

What happened was this: The Treasury had power to award a pension subject to a provision that it would be reduced if the cost of living fell. Owing to the maximum laid down in the Superannuation Acts to which I have already referred it had no power to grant any increase in the pension originally granted if the cost of living rose, and fresh legislation would have been necessary to give effect to the undertakings which the Minister had given in the House of Commons. Everyone concerned took the view at the time that the point was not material. Great Britain and her allies had just won the war that was to end war. Another world war was regarded as inconceivable. The cost of living was falling month by month. In fact, it went on falling continually in this country until 1933, when the index was only about 50 per cent. above the 1914 figure, and there was no increase in the index in Great Britain until 1938. When, therefore, on the 20th March, 1922, the Treasury promulgated a scheme for superannuation which indicated that the pension originally awarded would have to constitute an "overriding maximum" the provision was regarded as unimportant, because it was assumed that the cost-of-living index would never again show an increase and consequently the overriding maximum would never operate to the detriment of any pensioner.

Unfortunately for the elderly pensioners in this country the optimistic forecasts prevalent in 1922 have been falsified, another world war has driven the cost of living to an undreamt-of-height, and the provisions of an Act passed into law 88 years ago, provisions which were perfectly reasonable and equitable at that time, but which are utterly anachronistic in the conditions of to-day, have been retained on the Statute Book to inflict gross injustice on men who had not been born when they were enacted.

In this Bill the Minister takes power to get away from the overriding maximum in relation to the superannuation awards of men who retired between 1st July, 1940, and 31st August, 1946; but he refuses to take power to remedy the even greater injustice suffered by men who retired before July, 1940. Let me give one example, by no means an extreme type of case, that of a junior civil servant with a salary of £200 per annum who reached the age of 65 on the 30th June, 1940. The cost-of-living index was then 85 per cent. above the July, 1914, figure. His bonus would have been £120, so that his total remuneration would have been £320. His pension is therefore £160, just over £3 a week. He is now 72 years old. Instead of the percentage increase of 85 by reference to which his pension was computed, the percentage increase in the cost-of-living index is now over 200; but he cannot get one penny of increase in his pension. On the other hand, if his retirement had come about three years later, under this Bill, he would have been entitled, as from the 1st November, 1946, to have his pension increased by reference to a percentage increase of 170.

I have shown that pensions are precisely the same as salaries in their nature. The Minister has full power to increase salaries by reference to increases in the cost of living. Yet, apart from the limited field to which this Bill applies, he persists in keeping himself shackled by the out of date provisions of this ancient Act of the United Kingdom Parliament, so that he shall have no power to do justice in relation to pensions.

The Minister, speaking in the Dáil on the 30th October, defended his attitude in these words (Parliamentary Debates, column 1212):—

"My first submission is that we cannot guarantee, on any permanent basis, the value of pensions in relation to goods."

Now I suggest that this argument ignores the facts.

The pension is made up of two figures, which are separately worked out and, in fact, separately shown in the official minute awarding the pension. The first figure is the basic pension called the "annual allowance". This is based on the salary and does not vary. The second figure which is called the "supplementary annual allowance" is based on the cost-of-living bonus and does vary. Is there any sense in paying a separate allowance calculated by reference to cost-of-living bonus except to provide for adjusting the pension in relation to the prices of goods? The answer, of course, from the Minister's point of view, is that the variation of the supplementary allowance is to be in one direction only, that is to say, downwards. The Exchequer must have a guarantee that the pensioner shall not gain through an increase in the value of his pension in terms of goods, but the State must not give any converse guarantee to the pensioner.

I can illustrate by reference to the example I have already given. It will be remembered that the officer's salary when he retired was assumed to be £200 and his bonus £120. The minute sent to his Department would have stated that the Minister.

"has been pleased to grant to Mr. ——an award of (1) an annual allowance (pension) of £100 a year, plus a supplementary annual allowance, reassessable in the usual manner subject to an overriding maximum of £60."

The pensioner was told in effect: "You are getting a fixed pension of £100 and a bonus pension of £60. If the cost of living goes down, your bonus pension will be reduced; but, owing to something embedded in an Act passed before you were born, your bonus pension will never go up, however much the cost of living rises."

I hope to move a recommendation on the Committee stage of the Bill next week and I would earnestly urge the Minister to reconsider the matter sympathetically in the meantime. It seems fairly obvious that the cost of removing the hardship imposed on the men for whom I am speaking would be comparatively small. They are all advanced in years and the cost would be diminishing rapidly in future, as they retired at 65 and now are around 72 and upwards. I would not suggest at the present time any increase in public expenditure if I were not convinced that a principle of justice were involved. Civil servants are employees of the State, that is, of the people, and the standard set by the State should not be lower than that of the best employer. No good employer would differentiate between his employees and his ex-employees in an arbitrary manner by taking a date and ignoring the circumstances of the case.

The Minister argued in the Dáil that he could not deal with the case of these Civil Service pensioners without dealing with the case of other State pensioners also. There is no other section of State pensioners whose pension scheme is designed to reflect automatically periodic changes in the cost of living, and if my information is correct, as I think it is, the Minister's argument fails. I will endeavour to draft a recommendation dealing with this on the Committee Stage of the Bill and I would earnestly urge the Minister to reconsider the position sympathetically in the meantime.

In the main, I am in agreement with the view expressed by Senator Douglas. The Minister has met only part of the reasonable claim that has been made for an increase in the allowances made to State pensioners—he has met the claim only in respect of a limited section of the persons affected, those who retired on pension subsequent to July, 1940. There again the teachers are excluded and I think that the Gardaí are excluded also. Those with small pensions, who retired 10 years ago or prior to 1937, require to have their cases reviewed and require a considerable increase in the rate of pension awarded to them.

The State has some responsibility for the manner in which the value of these pensions has deteriorated. The State levies its taxation on the pensioner with a small income just as it does on the pensioner with a very substantial income. For instance, the civil servant, teacher, Garda officer or Garda who retired on pension in 1937 was then paying 1/- for a packet of 20 cigarettes and if he smoked one packet per day, that luxury—if we are to call it a luxury— meant an outlay of 7/- a week. If he continues now, when he is 72, 75 or 80, he has to pay 14/-. The additional 7/ is deducted from his pension by the State which has levied that tax on a small income of £2, £3 or £4 per week.

This Bill meets a claim in respect of certain sections of the community, but omits dealing with an equally pressing claim in respect of the very large section of old people who are adversely affected by an inflationary process and by the taxation levied on their incomes by the Minister and his colleagues in the Government. If a remedy is to be found for the hardships endured by all the old people now on pension, whether teachers, civil servants or others, it would cost a lot of money. But that is hardly a defence where the Minister is concerned. If the Minister desires to increase judges' salaries or pensions or make some other increase, it would come out of the taxpayers' pockets and the Minister would justify it on the ground that it is equitable and fair and tell us the community must bear the expense. Part of the community on whom the cost of these other imposts is levied consists of people on very small pensions, from 30/- to £2 a week, and at this age of their lives they have no other income to live on.

The Minister will find grave difficulty in justifying to Senators here a policy which draws a line of distinction, the month of July, 1940, between those who retired prior to that date and those who retired subsequently. There is no case for this Bill if there is no case for granting an increase in pension to the people who retired in 1937, 1935 or 1930. Very few of those who retired in 1930 are still living and those who are living, particularly those in the lower income groups of the Civil Service, have very little to live for or very little to live on. If the Minister proceeds with this Bill, I would urge him to introduce a supplementary Bill immediately for the purpose of giving relief to the sections to which I have referred and with whose claims the great majority of the members of this House are in complete sympathy.

Ba mhaith liom cabhrú leis an méid adúirt an Seanadóir Ó Dubhthaigh, nuair a luaigh sé go speisialta cás no seanmhúinteoiri scoile d'éirigh as an seirbhís níos mó ná seacht mbliana ó shoin. Is dóigh liom go bfuil caoi ag an Aire anois rud éigin a dhéanamh dóibh sin. Is fíor—ní féidir é a sheacaint—go bhfuil fuascailt ag teastáil uathu agus gá acu le haon fhuascailt is féidir a dhéanamh, i dtaobh an cruatain atá tagtha orthu trí mhéadú an chostais bheatha ón uair a chuadar amach ar pinsean.

Tá aithne agam ar roinnt daoine a thuill buíochas na tíre agus buíochas an Rialtais, atá anois teanntaithe, ceal a ndóthain ioncuim acu cun maireachtáil as an bpinsean atá fachta acu ón Stáit. Ní dóigh liom go bhféadaimisne seasamh le cuid mhaith d'oifigigh poiblí d'fhuascailt ón gcruatain sin agus gan an fhuascailt chéanna a thabhairt d'oifigí a chuaigh as an Seirbhís ar fad 'sna blianta roimhe sin —roimh 1940.

Do mholfainn don Aire féachaint anois le díombáidh agus dea-mhéinn ar iarrataisí na sean-mhúinteoirí sin. Is dóigh liom go mbeifí ar aon aigne leis sin agus go mbeifí sásta fóirithint orthu. Ní dóigh liom go bhféadaimisne seasamh go daingean nó go sábhálta ar an bpolasaí gur ceart dúinn fuascailt a thabhairt do na daoine sin agus gan é a thabhairt do na daoine roimhe sin. Do mholfainn don Aire caoi a ghlacadh anois chun fóirithint ar na seanmhúinteoirí scoile seo go speisialta.

Do thagair an Seanadóir Ó Dubhthaigh do na Gardaí. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil mórán Gardaí—den tsaghas nua Gardaí—a chuaigh ar pinsean roimh an aois sin, nó roimh an dáta sin, mar, do réir mar is eol dúinn, fir óga ar fad a tháinig isteach i seirbhís na nGarda i dtosach na haimsire seo agus ní bheadh an aois phinsin sroiste acu, ach ag fíor-bheagán, roimh 1940, Ach tá a lán de na sean-mhúinteoirí scoile —fir agus mná—i gceist agus iad ag iarraidh maireachtaint ar an bpinsean a ceapadh dóibh 10 mbliana nó 12 bhlian ó shoin, agus an costas beatha ardaithe san aer ar fad ó shoin. Tá an saol ródhian orthu agus níl caoi ar bith anseo chun éinní breise a thabhairt dóibh.

Cuid den mhéid a bhí le rá agamsa, tá sé ráite ag an Seabhac. Bhíos chun tagairt do na seana-mhúinteoirí. Chomh fada agus atá a fhios agam, níl aon tagairt do na múinteoirí san mBille seo, go bhféadfadh an tAire teacht i gcabhair orthu. There is an Irish proverb which runs: "Mar a thugais an choinneal, tabhair an t-orlach", and it is translated into English as: "When you give the candle, give the butt".

I think that when the Minister was undertaking to do what he is doing in this Bill he might have gone a step further and have included the civil servants who retired before 1940. They are now of an average age, I presume, of over 70, and are, in the nature of things, a diminishing class. The liability, therefore, upon the State of bringing them into the Bill would be a diminishing one. I do not know whether there is an estimate of how much that would cost, but one might even argue that the precise cost is not a matter at issue. The Minister for Finance, in the nature of things, has a very difficult task. Indeed, there is a kind of standard speech which all Ministers for Finance, irrespective of their political origins or affiliations, make and, I think, with great reason, namely, that they cannot, by the nature of their task, satisfy everybody. I agree that is so, but at the same time, on the question now at issue, the Minister can, of course, with a Parliamentary majority do almost anything. It should, however, be clear that there are a great many things that should not be done, and that we must have regard not only to the strictly legal bonds upon ourselves, but also to certain moral principles.

As has been explained—I do not want to go over the matter again— civil servants' pensions are deferred pay. A person entering the Civil Service has held out to him the prospect of a pension to compensate him for the smallness of salary, in a great many instances, and so, in this case, I think, what is happening is that a particular British precedent is being used against certain pensioners while the actual things which the British themselves are doing in favour of these pensioners are not being followed. That is to say, they are getting the rough side but they are not getting the smooth side as well.

I think the Minister might very well yield to the pleas that have been made to him on the grounds of justice and on the ground that the older a person is the more harshly the cost of living falls on him and the less remedy he has against it. I think that you could make these people's lot considerably better without entirely cushioning them against the increased cost of living which all must bear. It must be remembered, also, that a considerable amount of the increased cost of living which these pensioners, as well as other people, are being asked to bear arises from the incidence of greatly increased taxation.

In addition to these people, the Minister has told us that the Minister for Justice, whose business it is, is bringing in a Bill to adjust Garda pensions in the same way. It has to be remembered, of course, that the Minister for Justice could not bring in such a Bill without the consent of the Minister for Finance, so that, in effect, what the Minister told us to-day is that a decision has been taken by the Department of Finance to adjust Garda pensions. As has been explained by Seanadoir O Siochfhradha the need, while I recognise it, is in the nature of things not as great in their case as it is in the case of the civil servants or in the case of the pensioned teachers who have been alluded to because the average age of a Garda in 1922 was, I think, rather low. I quite agree that justice should be done to them.

I hope—reverting again to my Irish proverb: "Mar a thugais an coinneal, tabhair an t-órlach"—that, since the Minister has gone so far with regard to civil servants and the Gardaí, he might also meet the peculiarly lamentable case of a certain number of very old teachers who retired on very small salaries or before they were adjusted, and who are now in a very bad condition indeed. Their condition is quite different from the position of civil servants in the legal sense. They were not getting either a salary or a pension on a cost-of-living bonus, but apart from the legal consideration there is the human consideration. They are in an extremely difficult plight. I feel that the Minister might deal with this flaw in the Bill which, otherwise, does in fact remedy a great many difficulties from a particular date in 1946. He might add the people who retired before 1940, and as well as considering the Guards he might at any rate make some improvement in the position of pensioned teachers.

Proinsias MacAogáin

Ba mhaith leis an Seanadóir Ó hAodha cead coinneal do thabhairt do na daoine seo.

Ní headh: bun na coinneala adúirt mé.

Proinsias MacAogáin

Tá i bhfad níos mó ná "bun" i gceist sa méid adúirt an Seanadóir. The situation is that we have a large number of pensioners of all sorts. We have two classes of pensioners whose pay was related to the cost of living on a sliding scale—civil servants and Gardaí. During the emergency in 1940 a stop was put, by an Emergency Powers Order, to the salaries of civil servants and of Gardaí rising with the cost of living. They had, by tradition or contract, the right to have their pay adjusted according to the cost-of-living index figure. The Government and the Oireachtas thought it wise to impose a standstill on the adjustment of wages upwards with the rising cost-of-living index figure. That was not abolished until 1946. It started in 1940 and continued until 1946. As pensions are related to the salaries which are being drawn by civil servants or Gardaí at the time of their retiral, and as their salaries had not gone up with the cost of living after 1940, they had lower pensions than would have been justified had their salaries been allowed to rise according to the cost-of-living index figure. It is to remedy that particular breach of contract that this Bill is being introduced and that the Minister for Justice will introduce a Bill to treat the Garda pensioners in a similar fashion. That is why this Bill is confined to civil servants and does not include teachers or other State servants whose salaries and pensions were not related to a cost-of-living index figure.

Senator Douglas and Senator Hayes referred to this as deferred pay and Senator Douglas said that, when a business concern awards a pension, there is no element of charity or philanthropy in it. There is no element of charity or philanthropy in a Civil Service pension. If this were a social service, involving a means test, the State would be entitled to examine a civil servant's income and ascertain if he had an income from other sources, and, if so, to reduce his pension and, if not, perhaps to increase it, if that seemed right. Suppose that, instead of the State carrying its own pension burden, it had got an insurance company to undertake the liability to pay pensions at the same rates as the State pays, the State would pay to the insurance company every year 12 or 15 per cent. of salaries and the insurance company would undertake to give the forty-eightieths and so on, but the company would not undertake, if the value of money depreciated, to pay more money.

No, but they would not make any reduction if there was a decrease, as is the case of civil servants.

That is true, but they would not undertake to increase it, and if we could guarantee the value of money to everybody in the State, the ex-civil servants would have their pensions guaranteed as well as the rest of the community. It would be easy enough for the State to pick out a particular section, particularly if it were a small section, and guarantee that the value of their money would always remain the same, but the community as a whole can only guarantee the value of its money if it is prepared, and has the opportunity, to make the volume of goods produced fit the volume of money in circulation. Our whole trouble for the past few years has been that, through many causes which I need not go into here, we have not, as a community, been able to keep our pound worth the same amount of wheat, coal, iron or whatever other commodity you like to take, as it was worth in 1939. Senators want me to guarantee the value of the ex-civil servant's pound. If I do, it has to be done by making somebody else's pound less, because the volume of production at the moment will not give everybody in the State the standard of life they had in 1939. We have had to improve the standard of income of farmers and others in order to get them to produce the goods which the community require. Because of prices for home produce and the prices we were forced to pay and are now being forced to pay for foreign imports, the value of other people's pounds has fallen. All we can hope to do is to increase the total level of production so that the cost of living will fall again and the civil servant's pound and everybody else's pound will increase in value.

It is not right, I think, to say, as Senator Douglas said, that pensions are precisely the same as salaries in their nature.

I think that what I said was that the Revenue Commissioners so treat them for income-tax purposes.

They treat them as earned income. It is a concession which, I expect, was won by people on pension, and, having been granted as a concession, it cannot be used to establish a right to something else. That is the unfortunate thing which Ministers for Finance have to look out for. This Bill will cost the State £24,600 for pensions every year and £143,000 for the readjustment of the lump sums, which, of course, will be one sum. We have to do it because we interfered with the contract the civil servants who retired since 1940 had and it is only for that reason that the Bill has been introduced. As we cannot guarantee the value of the pound to the farmer, to the person whose income is derived from money he had either in the bank or in State securities, or the person who has a fixed income of any kind, we cannot undertake to keep the value of the pound which is in the possession of people with whom we have no contract to do so up to the level of that of 1939.

Could the Minister say what amount of money is involved in this business of putting into this Bill the civil servants who retired before 1940, or is that a fair question?

That has not been calculated, but the fact is that the State in one way or another will be paying something like £2,400,000 a year, and, while it may only cost some tens of thousands of pounds to make the provision with regard to civil servants who retired before 1940, every other pensioner in the State—the figure I have given is exclusive of old age and blind pensions—would naturally ask the same thing and the Senator can calculate what it would cost when I tell him that we are paying £2,400,000 at present.

Would the Minister state the cost of providing an increase similar to what is provided in this Bill for the pensioners with, say, £5 per week and under?

There would not be much difference between doing that and dealing with the entire number.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

All stages this day week.

Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 19th November.

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