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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 1947

Vol. 34 No. 14

Irish Shipping Limited Bill, 1947—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The main purpose of this Bill is to give effect in permanent legislation to the provisions of a number of Emergency Powers Orders. These Orders were made during the war in connection with the establishment of Irish Shipping Limited, and to meet various difficulties that arose from time to time in its operations. These Orders were continued in the Supplies and Services Act, but at some stage that Act will cease to operate and it is desirable that the Orders should be placed in permanent legislation in accordance with the general policy of the Government. The only important new provision in the Bill is that it enables an increase to be made in the company's capital. The capital at present is out of all relation to the company's assets. It has an authorised capital of £200,000, all of which is held by the Minister for Finance except the qualifying shares held by directors.

The assets of the company now run into several million pounds, and it is proposed to increase the capital to £5,000,000. It is not contemplated that the company will require new capital at present. They have very substantial reserves and it is from these reserves that they are financing the provision of new tonnage. They were built up during the war largely out of their marine insurance operations. These tonnage replacement reserves are now being expended in the purchase of seven new ships, on order, three of 9,000 tons dead weight, two of 7,500 tons dead weight and two of 2,000 tons dead weight. There are further assets available to the company from which they can get new tonnage if required. It is contemplated not merely as being desirable to relate the capital of the company more closely to the assets, but it is contemplated that a stage may come when the development of the activities of the company will require it to obtain new capital.

It is possible that it will be regarded as desirable that the company should consider the possibilities of the cross-Channel trade. At present it is engaged entirely on deep-sea operations, but if it should be regarded as desirable that the company should enter the cross-Channel trade, or if it should propose to extend its deep-sea operations considerably beyond present plans, then further capital would be needed.

The Bill provides for the payment of subsidies to the company. At present it is operating at competitive rates, and doing so profitably, and there is no prospect that subsidies will be required. There is power to pay subsidies under the Emergency Powers Order, although it was never utilised. I think it is desirable to maintain that provision in the Bill as an intimation that the Government intends to support this company to the limit. It may be that circumstances which existed before the war will reappear, and that other companies engaged in the same trades as this company, will be inclined to cut freights or adopt other unfair tactics for the purpose of driving it out of business.

I think it is desirable to have notice given here, that they are up not merely against this company but the Government of the State, that we regard it as of essential national interest that we should develop the merchant shipping service and keep it in existence. We hope that all countries will agree to maintain competition in shipping on a basis of fair trading, but if other Governments resort to subsidising, or if other companies adopt methods which are capable of being described as unfair, then we will have to consider what support this company may require in order to ensure its continued existence and to maintain its operations.

At the present time all countries which are operating shipping on the routes upon which this company is engaged are subscribing to the general principle of fair competition without subsidies, without price cutting, without any national regulations designed to favour ships of a particular flag in preference to others. How long these good resolutions will last it is difficult to say, if a touch of depression comes.

I want to explain the reference to subsidies as indicating merely a declaration of the intention to support the company if necessary, and not as representing any present intention of doing so. Of course no money exists to pay subsidies and would not be available unless voted by the Dáil. There is also power to guarantee borrowing. It is clear from the financial position of the company that it will not have recourse to borrowing for any purpose in the near future. The proposal is to give power to guarantee borrowings by the company to enable it to get credit more readily and on more reasonable terms than might otherwise be possible. The company is a very interesting illustration of successful State enterprise which will gladden the heart of Senator Duffy. It was of course formed during the war, and for a time it charged high freights. These freights which were fixed provisionally in the early stages, were progressively reduced until very shortly after the company beginning operations they were fully competitive with freights charged by other companies on the same routes. Their freights are still fully competitive and any business which the company gets is in competition.

There is no preferential system or any obligation on Irish merchants to use these ships. We hope they will have the good sense to do so, even if they can get an occasional cut freight from other competitive lines because it is as much in their interest as anyone else's to keep the company in operation. I want it to be quite clear that it is operating on the basis of free competition with all comers, charging competitive freights, and getting whatever business it gets from the suitability of the service it renders.

At a stage during the war the company went into the marine insurance business very largely to meet a difficulty which could not be otherwise overcome. Senators will remember that during the war we imported goods from South America via Lisbon. Neutral ships were running from South America to Lisbon, but they would not come beyond Lisbon, or to any port in this country. We arranged there a sort of supply channel by which goods were brought to Lisbon and stored there until shipped into Irish ports in small ships, a very large number of which we lost in this operation. Because of the fact that the flow of goods into Lisbon was often much stronger than the flow out to this country, supplies began to accumulate there during the war and at one period traders could not get the necessary war risk cover for those goods. Insurance companies in Great Britain and elsewhere feared that the German forces might enter the Iberian peninsula and consequently it became impossible to effect insurance against the risk of storing the goods in Lisbon. There was a danger that this would cut that supply line to this country because traders naturally would not incur the risk of having goods at Lisbon that were uninsured. Consequently, Irish shipping, having an interest in the matter, went into the business itself and said: "We will insure you against storing those goods in Lisbon." As you know, the Iberian peninsula was never invaded and the premium income to the company from this business was all profit. The risk never materialised. Having tasted success in this matter, the company began to realise that it was paying in war risk insurance on its own ships a fantastic rate to Lloyds and other marine insuring organisations. They decided to take the risk themselves on their own ships and on other ships too. Not merely did they offer this insurance at competitive rates, but at substantially reduced rates and they forced all other marine insurance corporations to bring down their rates.

Although nobody was compelled to insure with Irish Shipping, it can be claimed that the company saved Irish merchants millions of pounds by expanding its business into war risks. It built up a very profitable trade at competitive rates, but a stage was reached, however, when it was considered undesirable that the company should remain in the marine insurance business and so it disposed of that section of its business to the Insurance Corporation of Ireland and now holds a substantial block of shares in that company. As a result of its pioneer work, a substantial marine underwriting business has been developed in this country which has now a substantial and rapidly growing premium income from abroad. It was very largely through its insurance business that the company was able to build up the reserve funds which it is now using to purchase tonnage. The company had a fortunate experience, although two ships sailing under its flag were lost, but they were under contract which provided that they must be insured in the United States of America. It was necessary for the working of the company that there should be sufficient repair facilities available. The Dublin ship repairing facilities were fully employed and it was found desirable in view of the increased tonnage to extend the ship repairing facilities in the country. It promoted, therefore, a subsidiary company which operated Cork dockyard and it is still in operation. It was necessary that there should be adequate facilities at all stages to ensure that the company's ships would be kept afloat and that repairs would be done with the least possible delay, for delay at that period might have been very critical for us. In addition, therefore, to its major interest of operating shipping, the company has investments. It has investments in the Insurance Corporation of Ireland in consideration of the transfer of its marine insurance business. It also has investments in the Cork Dockyard Company, of which it owns all the capital. As I explained already, there is nothing very new in the Bill. All the powers it confers and the provisions it makes are covered by existing emergency powers Orders, with the one exception —the section dealing with increasing the capital of the company. I doubt if there is any other matter to which it is necessary for me to refer at this stage.

A measure has come before us which is very creditable to the Minister and I want to take this opportunity of extending a welcome to the Bill and of saying how very pleased I am at the provisions it contains. I think that the results of Irish shipping operations during the war have been magnificent and I think it is desirable that this House should avail of this opportunity to express its appreciation of the services rendered by the officers and men of the Irish merchant service who risked their lives, several of them lost their lives, in keeping the channels of trade open to this country. It is probably not sufficiently appreciated that but for the work done by those men during the war and the risks that they took we would be dealing with a different story to-day. I think the Minister is acting courageously and very wisely in relation to this enterprise. Some of its success, I gather from his own recital now, has been a matter of accident rather than design. Large sums of money, through its insurance business, happened to be got by stealth. Some of these people would not insure with the company if the risks would be taken elsewhere and by being forced to place their business with the company they had been landed in a gold mine. It is a pity that Senator Summerfield is not here to lay back his ears and enjoy the glad tidings. There is one point about which I feel many members of the House would like to know a little more. I would like to know whether all the capital of the company is owned by the Government and, if not, whether non-nationals own any of it. I do not suggest that that is the case but I just want to ask the question so that we can have it definitely.

All the capital is held by the Minister for Finance.

That satisfies me. In Section 7 I notice that there is provision made for the sale by the Minister of shares. That causes me to wonder. Is it contemplated that the Minister will dispose of the shares held by him? and, if so, in what circumstances that sale will be effected and whether the sale in fact would be restricted to nationals. I want to make myself perfectly clear. I am making no assertion, and I have no knowledge, that anything to the contrary is being done. I merely advert to the provisions of Section 7 to get assurance, if I can, that the share capital of this concern will be retained by the State and that there will be no sale, and that Section 7 is an unnecessary provision.

I have great pleasure in joining with Senator Duffy in paying tribute to this successful State enterprise. I am not a purist on this question of how enterprise should be developed and I hope at a later date the Senator may be in a position to congratulate me on some successful commercial enterprise. I think this has been a very successful enterprise. I think there has been a considerable element of good luck about it but that is all to the good. There is only one matter that I wish the Minister would reconsider, that is, his attitude towards the ownership of capital. He said in the Dáil that he did not approve—I think that is the word he used—of the public owning any of the capital. I think that is a mistaken point of view generally. Is it only with regard to shipping that he holds that point of view, or does he hold it with regard to other enterprises? I do feel it is healthy that private capital should be associated with every possible opportunity in our economic life. I do not suggest that the private shareholders should have control but I hope the Minister would consider allowing a minority holding to be issued to private investors. It gives them an interest and it makes the whole thing much more homogeneous. It is a satisfactory form of finance and it gives the ordinary investor an interest in a concern of this kind and to a certain extent it helps the stock exchange. I hope the Minister is not adamant in his refusal to allow a certain proportion of the capital to be held privately.

I do not want to throw any bouquets at the Minister. I think the project was too long delayed. It took a lot of urging to invest in Irish shipping and it took a war and an acute scarcity of shipping all over the world to make the Government undertake this enterprise. Many of us urged on every possible occasion—at least, I urged on every possible occasion—the absolute necessity of providing our own shipping. Hitherto, we depended on foreign ships that partially discharged in ports outside the country and sent the goods over here in cross-Channel ships, so that we had double-handling to meet in freights. We pointed all this out. Eventually, the Government took notice and invested in Irish ships, which got us through a very trying emergency. It is doubtful if we could have got enough ships if we had not our own. At any rate, they carried on during a very difficult period and they were able to make substantial profits in cargoes, but the provision of those cargoes was much more valuable to the country than the amount of profit represented by them.

The fact that we were able to gamble on the possibility of the Iberian Peninsula being free from invasion would rather imply that we had inside information. At any rate the company went into insurance and made a lot of money out of it. However, that is by the way. I am very glad to hear the Minister say that we are going to invest in cross-Channel shipping. Most of the shipping plying cross-Channel is in the hands of non-nationals and it is about time that we took a big interest in that because it is very important. Small ships in future will be very important for trade with parts of the Continent. I certainly am very pleased to hear that this venture is the success which the Minister outlined, notwithstanding the fact that it took him and the Government a long time to make up their minds to go into the enterprise. Now that they have done so, they have proved that Government enterprise can be a great success, as this one has been. We are all very pleased about it, even though they took a long time to make up their minds.

I would like to join with Senator Duffy, particularly in the remarks he made with regard to the work done by merchant seamen in our own ships during the war. That has not always been realised here. I do not think anything we can say here would make the public realise the extent of what we owe to them and the risks they were taking. We must not forget that a number of them lost their lives. Probably Senator Foran is right when he said the Government were too late. I certainly think they could have done better if they had started at least a year earlier, but it is very easy, after the event, to make remarks of that kind. There was at first the feeling amongst a great many people that the rates were too high and that, perhaps, to some extent may have resulted in profits. There again, I know that if I had been on the board I would have found it extremely difficult to know under the then circumstances what rates would be practicable.

I do not in the least agree with Senator Sir John Keane on the desirability of companies being half State and half private. I do not think it works. I think you get dissatisfaction on one side or the other. You do not get the benefits of private enterprise, if there be any—if Senator Duffy would admit there are any—and you do not get the full benefits of State enterprise either. I think it is a mistake to mix the two and I think it would only cause a certain amount of dissatisfaction. However, that is only a personal point of view. I hope Senator Foran's little joke about inside information will not get too much publicity or there may be a broadcast from Moscow.

Mr. Hawkins

I would also like to join in paying tribute to our Merchant Navy for the splendid work they did during the years of the emergency. I welcome this Bill particularly for the provision made in it for a subsidy to maintain the Merchant Navy should occasion demand. When so many people refer now to what our shipping has done and say that it should have been established many years prior to the war they forget that there were Irish ships on the seas, that there were Irish shipping companies, and that they were driven out of business by what the Minister has referred to as cutthroat competition, and various other means. Therefore, the best guarantee that our shipping company will be maintained is the provision in the Bill that, if necessary, the State would subsidise the company to keep it going. Of course, our Irish importers, in particular, should have sufficient foresight to support that company, apart from any immediate advantage they might have by supporting any foreign company because, if the position is created, as it was created in the past, that our Irish ships would be driven off the seas, those who accomplish that will be able to reap their reward. Therefore, the provision in respect to a subsidy is one of the most welcome provisions in the Bill, as I see it.

I have very little to say, except to clear up one or two points. In regard to Section 7, the Government does not contemplate, as long as the capital structure of the undertaking remains as it is at present, disposing of any shares now held by the Minister for Finance. Section 7 is a provision designed to facilitate Senator Sir John Keane, should he ever become Minister for Finance or Minister for Industry and Commerce. It may be that, at some stage, the capital of the company might be extended and that some arrangement might be entered into. I cannot at present contemplate in what circumstances it might arise which would involve a transfer of some of the shares held by the Minister for Finance into some other undertaking. We have a similar provision in legislation relating to the air companies and, as in this case, I doubt if it is likely to be used in any foreseeable circumstances.

I should be inclined to agree with the general view expressed by Senator Douglas, that it is difficult to mix private investment with State ownership. There are some undertakings of that kind at the present time and I must say that no particular friction has arisen, but, of course, it so happens that they are profitable and in such cases they raised no problems for the Minister for Finance. I am thinking of the Industrial Credit Company, where the private ownership is comparatively small. It is the only one that occurs to me at the moment.

It is correct to say that the successful financial results from the company's marine insurance business were due to the fact that it had a fortunate experience, but it would be unfair to the directors and officers of that company merely to describe it as good fortune. The decision to enter into the marine insurance business was a tremendous decision. When it appeared to be necessary and discussions took place with those who were engaged in the insurance business in this country and had some experience of marine insurance business, they certainly advised us that it was so complicated and risky a business that only experts could handle it. It was not possible to get in this country the expert advice needed, so the chairman of the company and certain of the directors and officers got down to a real study of the marine insurance business and mastered it in an extraordinarily short space of time, so that when they entered into the business they were able to conduct it with the same smoothness and efficiency as firms which had been in the trade for hundreds of years. When ultimately they made reinsurance contracts with Lloyd's underwriters and other international marine insurance agents, they were able to meet as equals with equals and eventually to establish this position in which there exists in Dublin a marine insurance business which is, as I have said, already receiving a very substantial and a rapidly growing income from abroad. Good fortune was there, but behind the good fortune, as in every other case, there was a great deal of hard work and a great deal of competence shown by the directors and officers of the company who took over that particular job.

It is true, as Senator Foran said, that we went into the shipping business as a State enterprise belatedly. I do not think we would have gone in at all if we could have kept out of it. Before the war, it was a most speculative business and competition was very keen and most shipping concerns were losing money. While we were very anxious to promote the growth of a merchant marine, we preferred to have it done through the private shipping companies and were looking forward to the stage when more normal conditions in international trade would permit them to expand their activities. During the first years of the war, it was, of course, Government policy to keep out of shipping and to utilise for our shipping needs, so far as it could be done, vessels of other neutral countries. It is, perhaps, easy to forget now that in those days of the war, because the German Government had declared these waters around our island to be belligerent waters, even United States ships were prohibited by the United States Government from coming in here, and there was a considerable risk to the policy of neutrality we had decided to pursue in having to operate ships under our own flag.

We conceived it as the best policy in those days to utilise Greek, Portuguese and other neutral ships, as long as they were available; but when, in the beginning of 1940, it was becoming clear that these ships would no longer continue to be available, there was no other course open to us except to get our own ships and sail under our own flag, taking whatever risks were involved in the business. So, while we would all like to have seen this successful enterprise started earlier, there were good reasons why it was not.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 3rd December.
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