Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 10 Dec 1948

Vol. 36 No. 2

Supplies and Services (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1946 (Continuance) Bill, 1948—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Cosgrave)

I had hoped that at this time more than three years after the ending of the war it would have been possible to avoid asking for a measure of this kind, but the supply situation which has shown some improvement as regards certain types of goods has not been sufficient to meet the demand in other cases. For that reason, it is necessary to continue rationing for another year. I think that, in the present international situation and the difficulty experienced in securing supplies of many commodities, it is essential that the powers which this Act gives should be retained. We are, therefore, asking the Seanad to continue the provisions of the present Act for another year.

I might say that where supplies are abundant, it has been found difficult, in some cases, to secure the transit of goods here, due to the disturbed situation abroad. It is essential, therefore, to build up stocks so that we can have available adequate supplies in the event of a temporary cessation in the flow of goods from the country or port of origin. In some parts of the world a shortage of goods exists, while in others the supply situation has improved, but, even in cases where there is a surplus supply of goods available at present, the currency situation presents some difficulty. The necessity for conserving hard currency makes it necessary to restrict consumption so as to avoid drawing, unnecessarily, on our supplies of hard currency. In addition to the actual control which is operated in connection with our rationed goods which are at present in short supply, the Act which is being continued deals with price control and, while there have been certain deductions in the world price of a number of commodities, prices continue to be greatly in excess of the 1939 level. The present wholesale price index is 233 as compared with 100 in 1938 and the import price index which was 89 in 1938 is now 238. It is clear, therefore, that the general price level continues to be abnormally high and that the danger of inflation still exists. If control were discontinued in relation to profits and prices the likelihood is that prices would advance still further and that the economic fabric of the State would be endangered. Any further increases in cost-of-living index, which is 80 per cent. above the 1939 level, must be avoided. The increase is attributable very largely to the increase in the price of imported commodities over which we have no control but we can exercise a degree of control by ensuring that there is no increase in the cost where it is within our power either to effect a reduction or at any rate to maintain prices at the present level. I think it will not be possible to relax in any way price control.

The experience which we have gained in the working of the price control system is all the time under review to see what improvements can be effected with a view to making price control more efficient and, wherever possible, with a view to relaxing the interference with business and the interference with the ordinary commercial life of the community. The experience during the emergency period of Orders made under the Emergency Powers Act indicated that in many cases the Orders made to meet emergency conditions were suitable for incorporation in permanent legislation and a number of these Orders have now been incorporated in Acts that have since been passed. Some of them are at present under examination for inclusion in future legislation and in due course these proposals will be brought before the Dáil and Seanad.

I think Senators might like to have a short review of the supply position in so far as it concerns some essential commodities.

There is no prospect of an increase in the supply of petroleum products, at any rate in so far as we can see at the moment, which would warrant the cessation of rationing. In fact it is, I think, fair to say that, as far as it is possible to see at the moment, rationing will have to continue for quite some time. At the present time our estimated annual demand for petrol is 33? per cent. over our consumption in 1938. The increases in the estimated demand in the case of kerosene is 30 per cent. and in the case of fuel oil 400 per cent. With these increased demands, Senators will realise that it has not been possible, despite the efforts we have made, to get sufficient petroleum products to end rationing.

Tea and sugar rationing is kept under constant review but I think that in view of the difficulty of securing supplies, and in particular when we consider the situation in the Indonesian tea gardens and remember that 18 per cent. of our supplies came from Indonesia, it would be unsafe at the present time to contemplate the ending of tea rationing. Supplies of tea in stock or in sight represent approximately one year's supply at the current ration rate or 11 months' normal supply. I think it is essential that we should maintain stocks at the present level in order to have some reserve against possible contingencies.

The grounds for maintaining sugar rationing are somewhat the same. The world sugar supply position has not yet returned to normal and, having regard to currency difficulties, it is unlikely that we shall be able to import a greater quantity in the year ending 30th June, 1949, than in the year ending 30th June last. Our stock of sugar on hand, including home production in the current season and purchases abroad, will only just enable us to maintain distribution on the present basis until the commencement of the 1949 home production season in November, 1949.

It is estimated that 500,000 tons of wheat would be required at the present rate of extraction if we were to end flour and bread rationing. The consumption under rationing is 430,000 tons per annum. The wheat crop this year will, it is hoped, amount to 250,000 tons and 100,000 tons of foreign wheat have already been imported. Additional imports of 112,000 tons are also expected. The total of 462,000 tons will be sufficient to maintain the ration on the present basis for the next 12 months and will give a small carry over for the next cereal year. It would be possible to purchase sufficient wheat abroad to end bread rationing but it would involve considerable expenditure in dollars and, in addition, there is the added difficulty of getting this wheat here. I think I might say here that up to the present month this year's native crop which has been made available to the mills is the largest yet received.

The production of butter for the current year is estimated at about 560,000 cwts. which is not sufficient to provide a 6 oz. ration over the whole year. The prospect of any appreciable improvement in the near future is so remote, as I think there is no likelihood of importing supplies from abroad, that there is little prospect of ending butter rationing.

If there are any details which Senators require in regard to any other commodities I shall be glad to furnish information.

Mrs. Concannon

What about the soap position?

Mr. Cosgrave

As the Senator is aware, soap is produced from imported vegetable oils which are subject to international control. The allocation to this country is much below our prewar imports and, consequently, we are obliged to continue rationing. We have made every effort and, in fact, are hopeful that it may be possible to increase the ration. I would point out, however, that while at one time it is possible to secure supplies of one particular ingredient, to have adequate supplies of the necessary ingredients and so make soap available has not been up to the present possible. However, every effort is being made to increase supplies.

Mr. Colgan

Is bread and flour rationing as essential as it is made out to be? I am told at home that in the present ration there is plenty for everybody and some people even say that there is more than enough. If that is so I am not so sure that it is essential that the rationing of bread and flour should continue. My experience has been that since the rationing was instituted there has never been any sign of stringency or shortage in my household and I have been told by many people that that is the position generally. Certainly there is control, but the control I think has been more honoured in the breach than in the observance.

That goes to show that there must be a sufficiency of bread and flour which would justify the removal of these commodities from the list of rationed commodities. Apart altogether from the fact that we are rationed, I think we should try and reduce the number of commodities that we must ration to a minimum. It creates a very bad impression if there is rationing of commodities when there appears to be no serious reason for it. From my own experience and from the experiences given to me by others, I do not see any reason for the continuation of flour and bread rationing.

Mr. Crosbie

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he can give the House any indication as to when the Department intends to put an end to the present irritating regulation which prohibits the serving of bread at certain meals in public restaurants, hotels and clubs? At the present moment the Department's inspectors enter and investigate these premises. It is a petty annoyance and there is evidence that it could be done away with.

Mr. R.M. Burke

With regard to the rationing of bread, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary if there is not a danger that certain people might feed bread and flour products to animals if rationing were done away with. That would be very undesirable. We should remember, too, that there are many people in other parts of the world who are short of flour and bread. Surely it is our duty as a Christain country to be as economical as we possibly can with flour and bread so that our fellow human beings in other countries will have sufficient. Is it not the case that there are other countries in greater need of surplus world supplies of wheat and bread than we are? Is there not a danger, as I said before, that if rationing were abolished, people would use flour and bread for animal feeding?

Mr. Colgan

You have no animals in the cities.

Mr. R.M. Burke

I am referring to the rural areas in particular. The people in those areas might use flour and bread if it was unrationed without realising that they were doing any harm to anybody.

Mr. Hearne

I have no objection to this Bill but I think it is deplorable that four years after the cessation of hostilities the Parliamentary Secretary should inform the House that the supplies' position is as bad as ever it was. I accept that statement. I am sure it is made after due deliberation. When the Parliamentary Secretary goes on to say that it is necessary to conserve hard currency, I am with him there. I wish, however, that he would impress upon the Minister for Agriculture the fact that one of the best ways of conserving hard currency is to encourage our farmers to grow more wheat so that we shall not be under the necessity to buy abroad. It may be said that there is no active discouragement to the farmers to grow wheat but there is no doubt that there is a feeling amongst the farmers that wheat need not necessarily be grown as a national necessity. In view of the Parliamentary Secretary's statement, I think it is advisable that the Government should indicate to the farmers that it would be good business for them and the country to sow as much wheat as possible. That would serve two objects; it would make us self-supporting to some extent as far as flour is concerned and, secondly, it would help to conserve dollars for other essential purchases. I think if the Parliamentary Secretary would bend his energies and his undoubted talents in that direction, it would be a good thing for the country.

I am not going to blame the present Government or the former Government because of certain prices charged to our retailers in regard to certain commodities. I know that this is a matter entirely outside the control of any Government. Within the last three months there has been a progressive increase in the price of wool and wool tops in the world markets. That will be reflected in the price charged for yarn to our manufacturers here and it will result in an increased price for one of the biggest items in the family budget, namely, clothing. There are circumstances governing the price of clothing which are entirely outside governmental control. I do not want to make political points on a matter like that but if anybody wants to make propaganda out of it they are welcome to it.

The supplies position all over the world is very erratic. Certain essential supplies are available in certain countries. Unfortunately, our business people are not using their initiative and enterprise to secure those supplies. I shall refer specifically now to steel. Steel is procurable. After an extended tour over the Continent I know that steel is available in reasonable quantities to any enterprising businessman who wants it. The same is true of roof covers of all sorts. Roofing is a bottleneck in the building trade at the moment. I know, as a result of my tour abroad, that slates are available up to the standard of first quality Blue Bangor. I admit that they are available in hard currency countries. But they can be obtained. I think they are so essential a part of the housing programme that despite the fact that the purchasing of them would entail a draw on hard currency, our business people should be encouraged to go out and get them. If our business people will not do that, then the Government must take steps in the matter because housing is so very important in the country at the moment.

I am disappointed that there is no prospect of an end to tea rationing. My family are great tea drinkers, in addition to other things. Where there is a family with three or four children, there is generally enough. Where there are two old age pensioners the ration is entirely inadequate. If the Minister could do anything towards easing the situation there, it would be a welcome relief all over the country.

Mr. Meighan

With regard to flour and bread rationing, in the rural areas at the moment some bakeries cease work for one day in the week. There are occasions when there is no sale for bread and they, therefore, do not bake on one day. Since flour was rationed, there does not seem to have been any scarcity. Like Senator Burke, I am inclined to think that, if rationing were done away with, people might be tempted to feed flour and bread to animals. That did obtain before rationing was introduced. Possibly the reason why it was done then was because animal feeding-stuffs were scarce. I understand that maize and other commodities for animal feeding will be available in the future. I do not know of any family at the present moment who suffers under the rationing system because of an insufficiency of bread.

Mr. McGuire

I just want to make a few remarks on the question of the price of clothing which has been referred to and on which there is a lot of misunderstanding. It is quite understandable that everybody would like to see the price of clothes going down and when prices are high as they undoubtedly are and have been, there is a tendency for wishful thinking to express itself. You see statements in the Press that the price of clothing is to come down, that the Government are going to control prices. As I often stated, it would be handy if all the Government had to do when a thing was too dear was to make an Order that it should be cheaper. Senator Hearne put his finger on the Kernel of the problem. The price of clothing is very much influenced by the price which we have to pay for our raw materials coming to this country. Everybody says: "The war is over now for four years, why is not the price of clothing coming down?" We must look at the price of wool which has to be bought outside the country and there are a variety of other factors over which we in this country have no control. This is responsible for a certain number of price increases. But I should like to quarrel with the general statement that the price of clothing has not gone down, because a great number of clothing items have in fact gone down in price. Moreover, a great quantity of clothing is now available that was not available during the war. You have only to look at the advertisements of drapery shops in Dublin in which the cheaper clothing lines are sold to see the immense variety of clothing available at the moment that was not available two or three years ago and which is being sold at fantastically low prices. I often wonder how it is done in view of the external factors, how things are so cheap.

I think there is something wrong with the method of arriving at the cost-of-living index figure as regards clothing. I understand that figure has not gone down. In fact, the Minister called a meeting of those engaged in the clothing trade, the manufacturers and distributors, and the basis for that meeting was that the price of clothing had not gone down. That is apparently taken from the cost-of-living index figure. I went to inquire how this was made up. I may be wrong, but I am given to understand that in making up that cost-of-living index figure some of the most exclusive luxury houses in Dublin are approached and prices often ascertained of certain things of a purely luxury character. Obviously when talking about the cost of living and price control, we must be concerned with the people who want clothing for the purpose of keeping themselves warm and decently clad. Surely we are not going to extend price control to people able to buy the most extreme luxury clothing articles. I feel the Government are doing themselves a disservice by declaring that the price of clothing has not gone down when in fact it has. I maintain that it is the method of arriving at this cost-of-living index figure which is wrong. Whether the way they do it is right or wrong I know from experience that it is not true to say that the price of clothing has not gone down in the sense that poor persons are not in a position to clothe themselves at a reasonable price to-day if they only take the trouble of going to the shops which have these reasonably cheap goods. I know a good lot about the drapery trade and the goods which are available and I say that if people will only take the trouble they will be able to clothe themselves at a much lower price than last year or two or three years ago.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

Rationing may not be a popular thing, but it is the only method which any of us know of by which nobody can get more than his share, even though it does not always ensure that everybody will get his share. I do not agree with Senator Colgan that because everybody gets enough bread under rationing that is a reason for decontrolling or derationing bread and flour. They might not all get enough if these were decontrolled, because somebody would get more than enough and therefore I say it should be continued. I do not smoke cigarettes but I understand from statements published by manufacturers that more cigarettes are turned out in this country than ever before, but everybody cannot get them, at least not of Irish manufacture. I do not suggest that cigarettes should be rationed, but if they were rationed at least anyone who wanted a share could get them.

I notice also that some of the jam manufacturers state that they produced more jam during the war years than in pre-war years. Jam was not rationed and, therefore, some people got none of it. I do not know where the jam went during the butter shortage and the emergency, but it did not go into the homes of the poor, because no jam was obtainable except by friends of the shopkeepers until we began to import jam from abroad. Then the imported jam was put on sale and the other jam came from under the counter. So much jam came from abroad, that we are now trying to get rid of it by inducing people to send it to their friends in Great Britain. The same thing happened in connection with sweets. It forced the sweets from under the counter.

I do not know whether this comes under the Parliamentary Secretary's Department or not. I do not mind rationing and control by the Government, but I object to indirect rationing and control of one trade by another. I am referring to the Pigs and Bacon Commission that has a monopoly business here. They regulate what bacon will be produced, what pigs will go into the factories, what profit the factories will make, because they see that they get it. But they have also control over the pork trade. Pork butchers in Dublin employ over 800 people. The commission forbid pork butchers in Dublin to salt any of the pork which cannot be sold in the form of fresh pork. Nobody will eat loins of pork or skirts of pork unless they are pickled. They are not allowed to salt the kind of pork which is popular amongst poor people. They make it a crime for a pork butcher to salt anything but a few pig's heads and feet. I do not know why a monopoly body like that commission should have the right to dictate to another trade and why the other trade should get no hearing.

I was on a deputation from the Dublin pork butchers which went to the Minister. They offered to put all their account books before the Minister and to show that under the control price for pork in the retail shops it was impossible for them to make the business pay, considering the price they had to pay for pigs. They pointed out that one particular firm in Dublin that makes sausages with the same kind of machinery as they do, pays the same wages to its employees, uses the very same ingredients, has the same overhead expenses and pays the same price for pigs is allowed to charge 4d. per lb. more than any other pork butcher. They cannot understand that.

I consider that that sort of rationing and price control is very bad. If there is a standard laid down for sausages, as there is, any sausage maker complying with that standard should have the right to get the same price as any other. That is not the case in Dublin. Men have been prosecuted when there has been no dispute about the meat content of the sausages. There was no dispute about the price paid for the pigs and they pay the standard trade union wages. Yet, this price control compels them to sell their sausages at 4d. per lb. less than the shop across the street which has a number of branches. They should give an explanation for it if they can. Speaking at the request of the pork butchers—who have nobody else to voice their complaint apparently, I wish also to enquire into the question of allowing them to salt more of the pig's carcase than they are allowed to salt at present. They do not want to make bacon—some of them did want to make bacon and they were fined for it, but they want to salt the bellies of the pigs and to sell them to the people of Dublin who want to buy them.

Mr. Tunney

We would all like to see rationing at an end in this country if possible but we know that it was not possible, for if it was we would get it. I rise principally to support the plea made by Senator Hearne to the Government of this country to grow wheat on the lands which are suitable for the growing of wheat. I believe that that is sound policy, good policy and good nation building. If we can give £6 per barrel for foreign wheat why should we be stingy with the Irish farmers and confine them to low prices? If the growing of wheat is not made compulsory on the lands suitable and in the counties suitable for the growing of wheat, at least such prices should be offered to the farmers that they would grow it without any compulsion. They would then be in a position to give better wages to their employees and the wealth would be retained in the country. It would be the production of real wealth. I cannot find words strong enough to back up the plea of Senator Hearne asking the Government not to go back on the growing of wheat. I doubt but that it was a wise policy to have compulsory tillage and though complaints were made that we had a surplus of oats and a surplus of potatoes, is it not a good thing to have a surplus of food in the country? It means that there would be more oats to feed to fowl and it means more eggs. It will mean that you can feed your live stock and it will mean, in fact, that everything will be better the more food you have in the country. Of course I would like to see the farmers getting good prices for the oats they produce, and one point that I would like to bring to the Parliamentary Secretary's attention is the robbery—if you like to call it that— that is taking place among certain shopkeepers in regard to the difference between what they give to the farmers, say, for potatoes, and what they charge the working-class people of this city.

For the last two and a half months the producer in Meath and in Louth who had to turn round and pay annuities, pay rates, pay his men and feed his family and who grew potatoes got £6 per ton for those potatoes and was very lucky if he even got £6 per ton for them. At the self-same time that they were in receipt of £6 per ton I have seen those potatoes retailed in Dublin for £20 a ton. I have seen the notice on the door. I think it is a scandal that when those people have not the decency to be satisfied with small profit that the Government should not take action and refuse to allow that discrepancy between what the farmer receives and what is charged to the poor people. I think it is very bad that the farmers in Louth and Meath, who are good, hardworking, honest and industrious people and who produce the potatoes are receiving that price while everybody in Dublin saw them on sale at 2/4 a stone. That is one thing which I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary never to allow again. Despite what certain Ministers say about inspectors, I feel that that is one place where there is room for a few inspectors to visit the farmers and find out what prices they are receiving and also to visit the shopkeeper. Our friend here spoke of the pork butchers, but last spring the other butchers were going on strike. They would not supply meat to the people if the Government did not reduce the price that was being paid to the farmers for their cattle to 88/10 a cwt. Unless the price was reduced to 88/10 a cwt. they could not make a reasonable profit or a decent profit. Now the price of cattle is a lot less but there is no word of them reducing their prices and I would appeal to the Minister to take some action about that.

Another item which I would like to bring to the Parliamentary Secretary's attention is the question of turf. I might not be strictly in order but the question is such a big national question that I would claim privilege for raising it. We are sending out money to import coal and at the same time there are thousands and thousands of tons of turf going rotten in the Phoenix Park. It is not right that that should be allowed to take place. If we were to stop the sale of coal for a month we could sell all that turf. Remember that during the war the people had got to exist on turf. I am an out and out believer in freedom in every shape and form and if the people desire to have coal and if they are prepared to pay big prices for it I say give it to them, but nevertheless this turf was paid for by the Irish people and it is planted there in the Phoenix Park. I think it is wrong and not sound national policy to allow this turf to go into mud and I would appeal to the Minister to take some action to see that this turf is sold to the people of Dublin if it only be in such a manner that people would have to take some of it with coal. Some steps should be taken to see that that amount of the nation's wealth is not allowed to go rotten in the Phoenix Park while we are giving money for coal.

I fail to understand why some of the farmers in this country are forced to sell oats. In Meath they were getting as low a price as 18/- a barrel and I wonder where the profit goes or has gone between ¼d. a stone and the price that the workers' wives in Cabra and elsewhere in this city have to pay if they want to buy a stone of oatmeal. I would like the Minister to make enquiries in that direction also because the margin of profit, allowing for overhead expenses and so on, is too great and somebody is getting away with something they should not get away with. I am very much in earnest about that and I hope that the Minister will take action to see that these things will never occur again.

I feel that we should do everything, and that the Government should do everything, possible to encourage the use of turf in this country because it was one of the things the previous Government did for which I give them the height of credit. They encouraged the use of turf before any emergency came. I am disgusted when I go into certain offices which are kept out of public funds and where I get English coal. That is wrong. I did not say they were Government offices but certain offices kept out of public funds.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Cosgrave)

A number of Senators have referred to the question of bread and flour rationing and suggested either that there was no reason for the continuance of rationing, or that if rationing was abolished that it might result, as Senator Burke, I think, suggested, in flour and bread being fed to animals. That is one of the difficulties. In fact one of the strongest contributing factors at the moment is the price of bread and flour, particularly the price of flour, which, when compared with the price of feeding stuffs, is probably one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest animal feeding stuff on the market.

If rationing were abolished, while the price of maize or any other animal feeding-stuff remains at its existing high level, farmers and others would be tempted—and I think the temptation would prove too great—to feed flour to animals. Senators are no doubt familiar with the fact that, even with rationing, it has been difficult to keep check at times that bread is not being fed to greyhounds. However, with the rationing system and the efficient way in which it operates, the quantity being fed to dogs or other animals is almost negligible.

Experience of the rationing of any commodity is that consumption tends to increase. When supplies are rationed, people have a sense of insecurity which compels them to seek greater supplies and, though in many instances there is an adequate supply of the rationed commodity, they tend to stock up. In the case of cigarettes, the experience has been that, while supplies over the past 12 months or so have been constant, at particular times many people found difficulty in getting their normal supplies. That may have been due at the particular time to some extent to the influx of tourists, but, comparing one year with another, the effect of tourists coming in does not vary to any great extent. People, however, sense a shortage, and, as a method of offsetting that shortage, tend to buy more and for a period the supply available becomes exhausted.

That does not apply to rationed commodities which are distributed on the basis of coupons, on foot of a ration book or on the basis of a weekly supply to which people are entitled under the regulations. Experience has shown that, during the harvest, when extra supplies of bread and flour were made available for harvest workers, the quantity of flour used over a certain period exceeded the quantity used prior to rationing. The normal sackage of flour used prior to rationing was 64,000 sacks per week. Under the rationing system, it is 56,000 sacks and during the operation of the supplementary flour and bread ration during the harvest period, the number of sacks used was 65,000 per week, showing that there again people tend to apply for more flour and bread than they normally require.

I think it is generally felt that the existing ration, if not adequate, is very nearly adequate. It is true that certain types of manual workers, and particularly agricultural labourers, at particular times experience a shortage, but in this country it is not possible to devise a scheme under which an increased ration would be available in rural areas and a lower ration in cities and towns. For that reason, we have to adopt a uniform rationing system. As part of the rationing scheme, the regulation under which bread is not allowed at certain meals is continued and it is because it is considered necessary to restrict the use of bread and flour that bread is not available with meals in hotels and guest-houses.

Some Senators referred to the difficulty of securing hard currency and the necessity for conserving whatever hard currency is available and urge that we should grow as much wheat as possible. I think the Government agrees entirely with that point of view, and, in order to encourage the maximum production of wheat, the price of wheat this season—and it is a price which is guaranteed for the next four years—is 62/6 per barrel. I think that is a fair price. It is 5/- a barrel more than was available last year, when it was 55/-, plus a fertilizer credit voucher of 2/6, so that from the point of view of monetary encouragement, the price of 62/6 should act as an incentive. The quantity of wheat available to the mills to date is the largest which has yet become available from home grown wheat and that is possibly due to the increased price. I do not dispute the fact that there was a good harvest which also had an effect on the quantity available.

Reference was also made to price control and Senators Hearne and McGuire referred to the cost of imported yarn, and particularly wool tops, and to the fact that the import prices have risen. It is undoubtedly a fact that the price of a number of these imported raw materials has gone up recently, but it has been our experience over the past few years, particularly where supplies from Britain are concerned, that the cost of the raw material to the British manufacturer is anything up to 30 per cent. lower than the cost of the same raw material to our manufacturers. One of our great difficulties in effecting a reduction in the cost of many commodities has been the fact that we are obliged to buy our raw materials at a higher price than that at which comparable manufacturers are enabled to secure the same raw materials in England.

Despite that, however, there are other supplies of raw materials which have dropped in cost and some hosiery goods have come down in price as a result. In the operation of price control, attention is paid to the effect of the price which manufacturers are obliged to pay for raw materials, as well as the other factors which are taken into account in calculating the cost of the finished article. Some reductions have been effected, as Senator McGuire mentioned, but there are certain articles of clothing which in the past few months have shown a slight rise in price. It has not been very substantial and I hope it is only a very temporary increase. In so far as reductions are possible, it is our aim to take whatever steps are necessary to secure reductions.

Another Senator also mentioned that, in computing the index figure in respect of clothing, sufficient attention was not paid to the type of clothing. In so far as the operation is concerned, I think we do take a cross section, from the point of view of considering the different type of consumer and assessing a fair ratio between those who buy cheaper articles and those who are in a position to buy dearer ones.

Senator Tunney mentioned turf and I agree with him that we would be very pleased if people would buy the turf in the Phoenix Park. However, due either to the quality or to the experience during the emergency that it was not fit to burn, it left a bad memory and people are reluctant to use that turf. The machine-won turf is comparable to any imported fuel at the present price, but the difficulty with the turf in the Park is that it is not of the same quality as the machine-produced turf. Some of it is good and we hope that people will purchase it, as compared with the present price of imported fuel, turf is a better fuel.

Senator O'Farrell raised the question of the pork butchers. I will have to ask him to take that up with the Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

When the deputation from the pork butchers went to the Minister for Agriculture, he said: "Do not pay the price for pigs that you are paying." The pork butchers replied: "We have to pay the price that they are in the market." We all know that the bacon curers fix the price of the pigs, by buying them up for bacon. The pork butchers were prepared to show that some of them had overdrafts of £2,000 for the last couple of years and had to carry on. They showed that, on the price paid for bacon pigs, they could not carry on except at a loss. The Minister said they should buy cheaper pigs, but that was no remedy. If the pork butchers are allowed to put into pickle certain parts of the pig, such as bellies, and sell them as salt pork, it would help to curtail their losses.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Hayes

This was regarded as a one-Stage Bill in the other House and we have taken it always as a one-Stage Bill here.

Agreed to take the remaining Stages to-day.

Bill passed through Committee without amendment, and reported.

Bill received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Tunney

I appreciate what the Parliamentary Secretary said, but he did not give me any assurance that he would take any steps to prevent profiteering. Good potatoes is the next food to good bread for the people. If the farmer is not getting a good price for good potatoes, the workers of this city should at least be able to buy them in proportion. He did not answer me on that point. I would like him to give me an assurance that he will devise some scheme, as it is wrong to allow this to continue and it will have a great bearing on the cost of living. I do not believe that it is increases in wages that make a worker's family happy, but rather a reduction in the cost of commodities they are forced to buy and do buy every day. I am not pleased unless the Parliamentary Secretary can give some assurance that he will take some action in connection with that matter.

Mr. S. O'Farrell

I want to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the fact that I asked that one particular firm of pork butchers should not be allowed to charge 2/6d. per pound for pork sausages which is 4d. a pound more than any other pork butcher in Dublin charges. It is a mystery to me that that should be allowed to continue and it should be cleared up.

Mr. Cosgrave

I omitted to answer that point. I will look into it. In reply to Senator Tunney, there is far too wide a margin between the price the farmer receives for potatoes and the price which consumers and shops are obliged to pay. The Senator will realise that one of the difficulties with potatoes is that, unless you ration them, it is difficult to make price control effective. Potatoes are sold in a variety of ways—through retail shops, greengrocers, direct from potato factors, direct from farmers, and also there are some hucksters or others who sell from carts direct to the shops and either grow them themselves or buy them for sale. It is difficult to have effective price control where there is no immediate control over the actual distribution.

At various times in the past, potatoes have been subject to control, but that has tended to diminish the supplies available. The Senator will remember that, for a few weeks some four or five years ago, there was a period of scarcity each year, though it was found there was no actual shortage of potatoes. The price control then tended to hold up supplies. In fact, for a period, a Potato Reserve Committee was in operation which purchased potatoes in Donegal and other places and had them available as reserves here in Dublin. The experience of that committee was that, while they purchased the potatoes they were never able to operate the scheme on a remunerative basis, even though subject to control and they found, after the experience of a couple of years, that they had supplies of potatoes on their hands when the season ended and new potatoes became available.

The effective control of vegetables, which includes potatoes, has always been difficult. There is an avenue open to people to buy on a producer consumer market, but in the absence of sufficient such markets it is difficult to make these vegetables available to people at a reasonable price. Undoubtedly, many people in cities and towns have to pay for vegetables generally at a price which bears no comparison with that which the producer is getting, because of the number of intermediate people who all tend to increase it. It is for that reason that up to the present an effective operation of price control on potatoes has not been found possible.

Mr. McGuire

Regarding the index of clothing, I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary really got my point. He said he took into consideration a cross section, but my point is that that is not necessary in estimating. It is not done in food. You only want your index to effect the price of particular clothing— essential clothing. You do not want to provide for the luxury side. I think the people making this examination of clothing—a most difficult thing to do, as there is such a variety of commodities—are not really qualified to do the thing and give a true picture of the situation. I suggest that the Department might—in view of the present Government's policy of consultation with trade bodies who are au fait with such situations—decide that the Drapers' Chamber of Trade should be taken into consideration on this point. They need not necessarily take what they say. Their advice should be taken and then the figures could be compared.

Mr. Cosgrave

I can assure the Senator that we would be very glad to get any suggestions from representative bodies, such as the Drapers' Chamber of Trade, that would enable us to assess the cost of clothing accurately but I do not want the Senator to infer that the people who compile these figures merely call to the more exclusive houses.

Mr. McGuire

I say that they should not call there at all.

Mr. Cosgrave

They probably do not. At least, if they do call, they only deal with articles which are of a cheaper price.

Mr. McGuire

That is my very point. I know for a fact that they called to houses and got quotations for a man's overcoat. You can get a good man's overcoat for £8 8s. or £9 9s. You can get quotations for overcoats up to 20 guineas, so that really they are mixing up luxury articles with essentials. That would upset any index figure. If you are going to have bottles of champagne put in with milk, you are going to get a farcical food index figure.

Mr. Cosgrave

Any suggestions we get will be readily examined.

Question put and agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.12 p.m. until 3 o'clock on Wednesday, 15th December.