One wonders, when resuming a discussion that has been adjourned for so long, where to begin. One is tempted to deal with the remarks of the last speaker. Senator Orpen has made what one might describe as a useful suggestion but Senator Counihan might not agree with it. Senator Orpen has praised and advocated the land reclamation scheme. I do not think this is the time or the place to discuss that scheme, considering that we do not know its terms. From what one can gather, the Minister has not yet indicated the terms or the proposals he has in mind in relation to this scheme. I can quite understand that Senator Orpen has contributed largely to the formulation of this scheme and that he would, no doubt, be a very able advocate of it in this House. I think however, that he might strain Senator Counihan's allegiance very much if he stressed that a levy should be paid on exports in order to repay loans farmers have secured from various Government institutions.
When I first saw this motion on the Order Paper I expected that some scheme would be proposed or suggestion made in relation to the type of person Senator R.M. Burke, and those other people who have spoken, holds is not now in a position to get credit from the banks or from the various other lending institutions in this country such as the Agricultural Credit Corporation. Senator R.M. Burke took up much time in this House suggesting that the wealthy should be taxed so that those less fortunate might be provided with the necessary capital to go into more production but he has not told us how to meet the demands of those people who have been described as non-creditworthy persons. We have been told by speakers on both sides of the House that there are sufficient facilities available for any farmer who is creditworthy but what about the non-creditworthy farmer? The non-creditworthy farmer is not and will not be in a position, despite whatever schemes are put into operation by this or any other Government, to get credit, simply because in the view of the lending societies and institutions he is not a creditworthy person. If we examine the matter we will find that the "non-creditworthy person", particularly in the case of farmers, falls under one of two headings. There are those who, through no fault of their own, are non-creditworthy. As we know, a system prevails in rural Ireland under which, when the father passes away, he leaves the property to the eldest son on condition that the eldest son will provide fortunes for his sisters and look after his brothers. It often happens that, in order to provide his sisters with dowries or fortunes, the eldest brother has to borrow from the bank. Having borrowed from the bank for that purpose, he is then not in a position to seek further credit to develop his farm and so make farming pay. He borrowed in order to fulfil an obligation and he was facilitated because the bank considered that the land which he owned was capable of yielding him the money and the interest he would have to repay. He now finds himself in the position that he has not the capital to develop his land and that he cannot borrow because he is already in debt. What scheme does Senator R.M. Burke suggest in order to make provision for such a person? He should have informed the House in that respect, considering the fact that he put down this motion. In particular, he should have informed the Minister who, I am sure, would receive most sympathetically suggestions in regard to the lending of money at a reasonable rate of interest—and Senator R.M. Burke would be an able advocate in regard to the lending of money at as low a rate of interest as possible.
The second type of non-creditworthy person is the man who, through illness or loss of stock through disease, or through any of the many other setbacks that occur on a farm from year to year, finds himself in such a position that, although he could probably make the best use of money because of his circumstances, neither the banks nor the Agricultural Credit Corporation will lend him money. It is no use saying to such a person: "There are the banks, and, if you do not get it from the banks, you can get it from the Agricultural Credit Corporation." In addition to these two types, there is the farmer with the large family. Whatever we may say about Christianity and so on, there is this to be remembered, that, in the case of a person who requires a loan from the Credit Corporation, from a bank or from any other institution, if it is put forward that he has a large family, his chances of getting the loan, even though other circumstances are favourable, are much lessened. There is also the traditional obstacle of the difficulties of getting possession of a farm, if the loanee defaults in payment. I urge Senator Burke to put before us some method by which cases of this kind can be met.
In the past—and I think it only right to pay tribute to this section of our people—the greatest friend the farmer had was the local shopkeeper. It was the local shopkeeper who fought side by side with the farmer to get possession of the land. It was the local shopkeeper who helped the farmers in their fight in the Land League days and who helped the farmers through the difficulties of the economic war and it is on these people, the merchants and shopkeepers of our towns, that the type of people I refer to have to depend to a large extent for the credit necessary to maintain themselves on the land at all. In recent years, there was introduced a scheme by which loans were made available through the county councils to cottage owners for the purchase of seeds and I suggest that that scheme might be extended. The members of the county committees of agriculture know the persons making the applications and know their circumstances, and if by some arrangement with the Central Fund, committees of agriculture were enabled to make short-term loans available to such farmers as I speak of, it would be of great assistance.
Many of these people who found themselves uncreditworthy have got out of their difficulties, due in no small measure to the tillage policy pursued in recent years. I have one particular family in County Galway in mind. That family found themselves in very difficult circumstances— a huge debt in the bank, no stock on the land and portion of it let in conacre. They were young and energetic and willing to do their best to get back to the position which their people before them had held, but they were tied down for want of capital. They undertook the growing of beet and wheat, and little by little succeeded in getting out of the mire, until in recent years they were able to take back their land from the person to whom portion of it had been sublet and are now able to stock the land completely and have their debts paid. That is due to the cash crop, the crop they could grow and for which they could get the cash which was so essential to enable them to make good, and it is only by a continuance of that policy that we can help the type of people whom Senator Burke seeks to help by his motion.
When, however, we examine the position and see what has been done, we find that, particularly in the past 12 months, persons of the type we wish to help by this motion are being hindered and many of them have been deprived of whatever little moneys they made in recent years. Last year, the Minister for Agriculture issued advice to the farmers over his own name to grow more potatoes and oats and urged—he not being an advocate of wheat growing—that they should abandon the growing of wheat. This advice, coming from a responsible Minister and issued by the Department, was accepted by many of our farmers and many of those who accepted it were people who had taken conacre and who were striving to get out of difficulties, people of the type this motion seeks to help. These people were encouraged by the Minister to grow these crops, and, having grown them, they found, when the harvesting season came along, the Minister telling them that he could find no market for them and that the only thing they could do was to walk these crops off the land. These people would be delighted to be in a position to walk crops off their lands if they could buy the live stock.
In many cases the difficulty is that in order to be in a position to purchase live stock they must first of all sell a cash crop. Until we have a long-term agricultural policy, until that policy is taken out of politics, and we are not going to have, as we had last year, statements issued by the Minister for Agriculture advising farmers to do one thing this year and reversing that advice the next year, we will have this problem with us. We had the Minister issuing advertisements this year advising farmers to grow wheat, and then advising them to avoid growing oats and barley until they were in a position to walk their stock off the land.
They are the people who need credit, because they are not creditworthy. If we are going to aim at the increased production that the Government and everybody else would like to see, we must not allow occupants of holdings, owing to circumstances over which they have no control, to be left in the position that they cannot get the fullest production out of their land. If we can avoid it, we must not allow that position to continue, but must make provision to help persons of that type to secure the credit they require. In speaking to his motion Senator Burke did not give any insight into what scheme he suggests should be put into operation to meet such cases.
I suggest that the safest scheme for such farmers would be a long-term policy, so that they would know where they were going, what they were going to get for their work and not be faced with changes from day to day in agricultural policy. That has happened inside 12 months, where advices that were directly contradictory were given. Of course the farmers were not a bit upset by such advice; what they were really surprised at was that different advice was not given every two months. If we are going to help these people I think there should be an extension of schemes, whereby agricultural committees would be in a position to give farmers short-term loans, and also to let them know what Government policy would be for a number of years ahead. That would be a most essential step in getting the required production and in giving farmers generally confidence in their industry.
