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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Mar 1950

Vol. 37 No. 9

Pensions (Increase) Bill, 1949—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The Bill is to enable me to increase certain pensions payable in respect of public service. I have previously, in bringing in certain token Estimates in Dáil Eireann, indicated the general scheme and that, having got the token Estimates from Dáil Éireann, the pensions would be payable forthwith, and wait for the enabling legislation to follow. A great many have been paid in full. The pensions dealt with are in respect of public service of civil servants, teachers, police and widows and children of Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries. The Bill also deals with certain local and harbour authority employees and there is a special class of employees of the Electricity Supply Board who are dealt with. They are a special class whose pensions are restricted under a particular Emergency Powers Order. If the restriction is to be removed it is thought better to do it by this legislation than by Order.

The payment of the pensions is run according to a certain scale, but the increase in pension is subject to a couple of limitations. There had been a general increase in remuneration that took place about the end of 1946, and the first restriction that there is in this piece of legislation, is that any pension which is calculated by reference to remuneration below the level obtaining towards the end of 1946 will be raised, but not raised any higher than by reference to the remuneration at that particular date. The second thing is, that there is a ceiling of £450 put upon the pensions. If a pension now being paid, is at or above a sum of £450 a year, then it is not being increased at all. In so far as any pension under that limit is increased after the application of the percentages I will go on to mention, to raise it above the sum of £450, then it stops at £450. Subject to these two limitations, the increases authorised are as set out in one of the sections. Where the pension does not exceed £100 a year, 50 per cent. of the pension; where the pension exceeds £100 but does not exceed £150 a year, 40 per cent. of the pension, but not less than £50; where the pension exceeds £150 but does not exceed £450 a year, 30 per cent. of the pension, but not less than £60, provided that no pension will be increased to more than £450 a year.

Of course, the overriding maximum of £450 comes in there. Certain pensions now paid have in them an element that is attributable to emergency bonus that was paid during some date from 1940. From any persons receiving pensions which were increased, we take away the emergency bonus, and then the pensions bereft of that emergency bonus are calculated according to this scale I have given. Any increases that are permitted in this Bill are to be paid as from the 1st April, 1949 or if a pension has commenced at a later date than that it is from whatever date it commenced. All others are being made retrospective to the 1st of April, 1949. There are two or three special points in connection with the proposed restrictions. Civil servants and Gardaí who retired in the period from the 1st of July, 1940, to the 31st of October, 1946, when their salaries were stabilised, have already had increases granted to them under previous legislation, but in respect of those people who had retired before the 1st of July, 1943 the improvement made in the old position would be less beneficial than the improvement made in this legislation. In those cases, it is proposed to give them the benefit of this legislation under that particular head. When the October Estimates were before the Dáil a couple of comments were made, by way of objection, to show that I should have made provision for a minimum increase; that nobody should get anything less than a certain amount. It was represented to me, truthfully at the time, that some of the pensions paid were miserably small; that even a 50 per cent. increase would not be of very much benefit. That is, unfortunately, the case. It has also to be remembered, that where a pension is very small, it must mean that the period in respect of which it has been earned must have been very brief. The difficulty I am in is not the money associated with the particular group of pensioners concerned. The minimum is here laid down, and if anybody finds that minimum pensions would have to be paid, it would mean that a person coming into the Civil Service and retiring for health reasons after a brief period would find himself with a pension at the minimum rate to be paid. If that is not done the Minimum position would find these people better off than people who retired hereafter with very much greater service. For that reason, I decided against it. The cost to State funds of the legislation and the Orders associated with it amounts to £250,000 a year.

The Bill itself deals with national teachers, civil servants, members of the Garda Síochána, the Dublin Metropolitan Police and certain resigned and dismissed members of the Royal Irish Constabulary and a group of others, the widows and children of Parliamentary Secretaries amongst others. I did not make any provision in this particular piece of legislation for the widows of Garda Síocháná or of resigned and dismissed members of the Royal Irish Constabulary or of members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. It is considered better to provide for these by way of Orders and these Orders have already been agreed. The reason for that was that it was desired that increases given now should apply to future pensions, as well as those already paid. About 500 widows will benefit and 600 children of the deceased Gardaí and members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police will also benefit to some extent. In accordance with this scheme Orders were made providing for increases in Army pensions and the retiring pay of Army people. All the increases that were given have been according to the scale I have mentioned. This is a scheme that is accepted for all these groups. A section in the Bill definitely excludes from the benefit of this legislation any provision at all for increases in pensions awarded under Article 10 of the Treaty to former civil servants or members of the Dublin Metropolitan Police. These are the people who had a certain beneficial position secured for them under the Treaty and under legislation founded on it. They were entitled to the advantage of the legislation under the Treaty, and if they achieved a higher rate of pension at times, than what is now being provided, they have enjoyed enhanced pensions in terms for many years. I do not consider I have any obligation towards them, and I make no provision for them. The increases to harbour and local authorities employees which are referred to here will be granted by the authority concerned, subject all the while to the Minister responsible. The increases to those people will be paid on a basis similar to that applicable to civil servants. The legislation was extremely difficult to draft to cover all the types of people who had to be provided for, and it may not be easy to follow the sections. If the House desires to have a detailed Committee Stage then it will assist that consideration if I very, very sketchily indicate the meanings of the different sections.

Section 1 is mainly a definition section. Section 2 is the section upon which the Bill pivots. It indicates what are to be the appropriate sums; that is to say, the increases that will be given, those percentages I spoke of. Section 3 provides for the increase of the pensions of police and civil servants other than those increased under previous legislation, and the pensions of teachers. Section 4 deals with widows' pensions and children's allowances granted under the Ministerial and Parliamentary Officers Acts, and Section 5 deals with police and Civil Service pensions where the increases under the Bill are being substituted for lesser increases previously granted.

The local authority people are covered by Section 6 and the harbour authorities by Section 7. Section 8 applies where a person has two pensions. It is simply to make provision that we aggregate the pensions as one scheduled pension for the purpose of arriving at the ceiling of £450, and also for making the addition to the pension proportionate to the way in which the present pension is paid. Section 9 is the section which deals with the commencement of the increase which will be retrospective to the day of the commencement of the pension or the 1st April, 1949, whichever is the later. Section 10 deals with a small matter. Under the Pensions (Increase) Act, 1920, pensions that then fell due for payment are subject to a means test. It is desired not to have the trouble of applying the means test hereafter, and what we do is to take the amount of money paid on 1st April, 1949, as the basic amount for the application of the Act.

Section 11 continues to apply any statutory provision providing for the diminution or change that may have to occur in a pension. These are continued in regard to new pensions. Under certain Acts, say, if a person who has a pension gets employment in some of the public offices, then the pension payable by the State ceases, and it is replaced by the other with certain reservations. It is also possible to have a pension forfeited for certain criminal offences and under the Bankruptcy and Lunacy Acts pensions may be changed. We continue to apply these conditions to the new pensions. Section 12 indicates that the increases shall be granted by the Minister who grants the pension. There are special groups in which pensions are granted by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the Minister for Education, the Minister for Justice and in other cases by myself.

Section 13 again deals with a small matter—pensions that are granted under an Order—the Royal Irish Constabulary (Resigned and Dismissed) Pensions Order, 1924.

Those are subject to a restriction that the pensions may not at any time come to a higher point than two thirds of the salary to which the pension is related—in this case the salary which the person was in enjoyment of at the date of retirement. We had to change that because it would restrict very narrowly the increase of the pension, and would put in another ceiling in addition to the two limitations we have already applied. Section 14 has been framed to meet a rather special point. It is the position at the moment that if certain pensioners receive what is called a compensation award, then the pension is abated by a certain small amount. Say, a person who is a member of the Garda got what is called a compensation award in the courts in respect of certain matters, the practice up to date has been to substract from the full-time pension about 2½ per cent. of whatever the award is. We want to carry that forward but to make it applicable to the new pensions instead of to the old rate. Section 15 is common form. It allows doubts to be resolved by the Minister for Finance.

Section 16 relates to this group of pensioners who are paid by the Electricity Supply Board. It does not apply to pensioners of the Electricity Supply Board comprehensively, but only to a limited group of people who were previously in the service of a local authority and went over to the Electricity Supply Board and carried with them certain special rights. When the stabilisation took place during the emergency, the money payable to these employees was restricted by an Emergency Powers Order. We are freeing these particular groups of pensioners from the imposition of that Order, and the Electricity Supply Board will pay the pensions, but there will be no longer any handicap such as that imposed by the Emergency Powers Order.

There is nothing in Section 17. It relates back to the rest of the Act. There was no great pressure put on me in Dáil Éireann when this Bill was under consideration except in one matter of the minimum provision. I have said that it is not so much the amount of money involved in meeting the minimum standard as it would be the relation of that at a future time. It would stand as a precedent and would make for justice. In any event, I have made the case in the Dáil and I make it again here, that the provision made for the lower paid pensioners is, I think, on a scale higher than has been made where pensions have been increased elsewhere. Take the example of other countries. I think that in allowing a 50 per cent. increase to the lower groups I have made better provision than is made elsewhere.

With a limited sum of money to deal with, and I had to do the best I could inside the limitations of the money available, there was the difficulty that by increasing the minimum the pensions paid to the higher levels would have to be somewhat reduced. I did not find any great complaint in Dáil Éireann and it was accepted, I think, that another quarter of a million added to the other benefactions last year did represent a good effort to make up for losses, and to compensate for the increase in the cost of living. I recommend the Bill to the House as a good effort to meet the case.

As the Minister has dealt with the point of the difficulty of giving effect to the suggestions made in the Dáil, I would like to put it in a new light. We all appreciate the difficulties of a person living on a pension of, say, £50, or anything under £100 a year, and while it might be claimed to be generous to make an all-round increase of 50 per cent. in such cases, I would endeavour to assist the Minister to overcome his difficulty by pointing out that, as the number of persons concerned is small, he might have gone one step further, and that in the case of persons in receipt of pensions of less than £100 per year he could increase the percentage. That would get over the difficulties he has pointed out in the whole matter. It is true, of course, that the amount of money provided is considerable, if you look at it that way, but it is also true that persons in receipt of pensions have had very difficult times in recent months and years, and even the increased pensions will not be of very much assistance, because we have the ever increasing cost of living, and if we are going to continue on the road we are now travelling, it must follow that this increase now being given will not keep up with the growing cost of living. There would be another case to be made on behalf of those people who are in receipt of pensions up to £100 or £150. One could also make a case for those people who are in receipt of pensions up to £450, which is the ceiling. We know full well that, no matter what the family income is, most people are living according to that income and have certain commitments. Therefore, while it is difficult to be generous with all sections, it is quite possible that even the person who has £450 could find himself in just as much difficulty as the person with a smaller income. I should like to know from the Minister if the increases now provided for will be subject to income-tax in the ordinary way, or will the provision now being made be free of income-tax in respect of those who pay income-tax.

Senators will remember that all the Parties constituting the present Government, prior to their election, promised that they would give certain increases to pensioners, but it was some 18 months before they made up their minds to bring in the increases. As the Minister told us, in July of last year, he made an announcement in the Dáil setting forth briefly the increases proposed to be given and stating, as he stated, I think, to-day, that the intention was that these would be paid forthwith. All these pensioners who had been anxiously looking forward to the increase—they had got nothing over the war years, despite the heavy increase in the cost of living —heaved a sigh of relief and immediately began to calculate, each for himself, the amount by which his pension would be increased. The newspapers gave just a summary of the Minister's statement and did not mention or go into any detail about all these limitations which the Minister has told us about to-day and which are enshrined in this Bill. The papers reported that pensioners who had under £100 were to get 50 per cent.; that others were to get £40; still others £30 and so on, and these people were especially pleased by the statement of the Minister that payments would be made forthwith. I wonder does the Minister know when the payments were made? I know that many months afterwards there were pensioners still expecting payment, and many, after months of weary waiting, did not get any increase because they had passed to their reward in the meantime. The reason for that was, of course, the provision of all these limitations and I wonder if the Minister himself appreciates what the result of these limitations was in the matter of calculating the increases in pensions.

This measure is an extraordinary measure. I do not know how many Senators have read it, and I wonder how many have been able to follow or to interpret it. I have been for the past 30 years, off and on, dealing in this House and in the other House, and outside, with Bills and Acts of Parliament and it has never been my misfortune to read a Bill more complicated or more difficult of interpretation than this. It is the way Governments and Finance Departments especially do things—they always, as we say, take the good out of it. They promise to do a certain thing and then they hedge it around with all sorts of limitations and barriers which take all the good out it. What would a business firm do if faced with a position like this? They would say: "We have so many under £100 and so many under £150. We will give these the appropriate percentage and we will have the whole thing done." But that was not done in this case. All kinds of limitations were set into the Bill.

Section 2 says that, subject to sub-section (2) of the section, certain percentages will be paid and sub-section (2) says that the pension calculated on the emergency bonuses will be deducted. So far as I know, no good case has ever been made why the increase given to a public servant —teacher, civil servant or any other— by way of bonus to meet the cost of living should not be pensionable in the ordinary way. Neither in the Dáil nor here to-day did the Minister attempt to explain or justify the refusal to calculate this increase in salary for the purpose of calculating pension. I understand that, in the case of civil servants—I am not very sure about this—there was a certain basic salary with a cost-of-living bonus and it was the practice before the war to make some distinction in the matter of the pension as referring to the basic salary and to the cost-of-living bonus; but that was never so in the case of teachers, and whatever might have been the justification for it in the case of civil servants, there was no justification whatever for deducting the pensionable part of the bonus in the case of teachers.

Let us look for a moment at this proposal. That was the first limitation, that the bonus was to be deducted, and I will show later what that meant in practice. We come then to Section 3 and it is the real gem. Some of the Senators may not have the Bill before them and I will read it for the purpose of having it on record. It reads:—

(1) A scheduled (Part I) pension shall be increased—

(a) in the case of a restricted pension, to the lesser amount, and

(b) in any other case, by the appropriate sum.

It then goes on to define what has been set out:—

(2) In sub-section (1) of this section—

the expression "restricted pension" means a scheduled (Part I) pension—

(i) which is specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (g), (h) or (i) of Part I of the Schedule to this Act, and

(ii) which, if increased by the appropriate sum, would be greater than the pension payable to or in respect of a person of equivalent status and service whose service ended on the 31st day of October, 1946;

The genius who evolved that is wasting his time in the Government service— he should be in the School of Cosmic Physics.

Would the Senator suggest how it should be phrased?

I would not; I would suggest not have it there at all.

How would the Senator provide simply for the payment of a pension?

If I could not put it more simply than that——

I will give the Senator the emergency bonus if he does it. It cannot be done where you have all these groups to deal with.

That is what I am objecting to—putting all these limitations into what should be a very simple proposition. You find a person with less than £100 pension and you say: "We will give him 50 per cent." Should that not be easy without going into all these limitations? I will deal with what I am familiar with, the position of the teachers. The first limitation the Minister mentioned was the £450 ceiling. That did not cause any trouble when it came to calculating the amount in relation to a teacher, because no teacher had a pension of £450. For those who had retired before 1st January, 1943, the position was simple, too, because it was after that date that the first bonus was paid, so that there was no question of a deduction of bonus in their case. The only thing to be watched in their case was that the increase would not bring them above what they would have got if they had served after 31st October, 1946. That is a significant date—the day before was the day on which the strike finished and the new scheme came into operation. In the case of any teacher pensioned before that date, care was taken that his pension would not be such as to bring the amount higher than the amount he would have if he had served after that date. That was simple, too.

In their case it was simple, but then we come to those who retired between January, 1943, and the 31st October, 1946. In that period there were bonuses paid at the following rates: In 1943 women got 5/- a week and men 7/-; in 1944 that was increased to 8/- for women and 10/- for men; in 1945 it was increased to 9/- for women and 11/- for men; and in 1946 to 13/- for women and 15/- for men. Let us see how that worked out on the simplest calculation I can get. Take a woman teacher who had a salary of £160—and there were several who had less. On the 31st December, 1942, she had 40 years' service. She got 5/- bonus on the 1st January, 1943, and she retired on the 31st March, 1943, having drawn £3 5s. 0d. by way of bonus. For the purpose of pension, that £3 5s. 0d. had to be averaged over three years. That meant that, for pension purposes, there was a sum of £1 1s. 8d. entering into the calculations, in addition to her £160. Having 40 years' service, she got the half of that, so that instead of £80 as half of full salary she got, because of the bonus, £80 10s. 10d. Under this pension increase, if the £80 10s. 10d. were to be the basis of the calculation, she would get an increase of £40 5s. 5d., but because it was calculated on the £80 pension she gets only £40 and the Treasury saves 5/5 in that case. That is the simplest calculation.

That same woman might have gone on for another quarter—teachers retire every quarter—and there is £3 5s. 0d. for the first quarter, twice that for the second, and so on. The next year they had different rates altogether. I said that 40/80ths is an easy thing to calculate if they had it; but if they had 39 years' service it would be 39/80ths, and so on; and you got involved in all kinds of fractions then. What was the result of that? There was a staff in the Education Office for months making these abstruse calculations. For what purpose? For saving the amounts that would be involved by deducting these small bonuses for the purpose of pension.

I honestly and sincerely believe that the amount that was expended on these clerks—I am dealing only with the case of teachers, but it was the same in the case of other officers— was more than was saved by the deductions. I am sure it cost more to the Department of Finance to make the calculations than it would if they just paid right off without making the calculations at all. That does not take into account the discontent and disappointment and the irritation that was caused to those people who were expecting to have their pensions paid. I think I am right in saying that the Minister had no appreciation of the amount of trouble and the number of calculations that had to be made in all those cases because of the way the scheme was devised. It is a shining example of how not to do a thing. I am sure we are all glad that increases were given, but we certainly are not glad about the way it was done.

There is not much use in talking about it now, as the thing is done. Valuable time of officials in the Education office and other offices has been taken up in making these calculations. I believe that most of the pensions have been paid by this time—I hope they have been—and there is not much use in trying to remedy it; but I am calling attention to it to show that it is not the way the thing should be done. Taking one thing with another, it would have been better and would have given more satisfaction, and I believe it would have cost less money in the end, if many of those limitations were omitted. I refer especially to the one I know most about and understand best, that is, the deduction of the emergency bonus from the salaries for the purpose of calculating the pension.

Tá moladh ag dul don Aire as ucht an Bille seo a thabhairt isteach, ach is dóigh liom gurb é an moladh is mó is féidir a thabhairt don Bhille gur fearrde ann ná as é. Sásaíonn sé mise, ar aon chaoi, go bhfuil ordú le fáil ag na daoine atá luaite in san mBille ar a gcuid pinsin; ach ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil mé mí-shásta leis, ar dhá chonntar thairis sin. Sa chéad dul síos, is cuimhin liom an méid cainte a rinneadh, síos suas tríd an tír, aimsir an toghcháin, ar an méid a déanfaí do lucht na bpinsean. Taréis an toghcháin, fuair mé cuireadh go dtí cruinniú in nGaillimh a thug Cumann na Múinteoirí Náisiúnta le chéile le scéal an phinsin a phlé. Ag an gcruinniú bhí duine amháin a d'fhág le tuiscint go raibh fios aigne an Rialtais aige agus thuig na sean-mhúinteoirí agus thuig daoine eile gur gearr go mbeadh an réiteach déanta, go bhfaighdís na pinsin agus go bhfaighdís siar iad go dtí an uair a thosaigh an Rialtais. Maidir liom féin, chreid mé gur mar sin a bheadh an scéal. Casadh múinteoirí orm idir an dá linn agus chuireadar in iuil dom an mhoill a bhí ar an scéal agus an mí-shásamh a bhí orthu mar gheall ar an moill sin. Dúirt an Seanadóir Ó Conaill go bhfuil cuid de na múinteoirí a bhí i gceist an uair sin imithe ar Shlí na Fírinne ó shoin. Is dóigh liom, munar féidir a rá go raibh geallúint ann do réir dlí, is cinnte go raibh "Gentleman's Agreement" ann go bhfaighdís an pinsinn gan mhoill agus go bhfaighdís í síar go dtí lá tosuithe an Rialtais, an méid sin ar a laghad. Tá níos mó ná sampla amháin ann gur briseadh focal den tsórt san. D'fhéadfadh an tAire a rá nach bhfuil aon gheallúint scríofa ann. Déarfainn, do réir equity, go bhfuil an ceart ag na daoine bheith ag súil le níos mó ná mar atá déanta dóibh.

Cuimhnímis ar scéal tuarastal na múinteoirí scoile. Thuig an gnáthdhuine go bhfaigheadh na múinteoirí scoile ardú do réir mar adéarfadh lucht an choimisiúin a scrúdaigh cúrsaí tuarastail agus uile. Tá an-díomú ar na múinteoirí nach bhfuaradar ardú ar an dóigh a raibh súil acu leis agus siar go dtí lá tosuithe an Rialtais.

Tá mé mí-shásta leis an mBille nach bhfuil an t-ardú pinsin ann a mbeimis ag súil leis agus an t-athrú atá tagaithe ar luach an airgid a chur san áireamh. Admhaímid go bhfuil deacrachtaí móra ag an Aire agus an t-airgead a sholáthar. Nach bhfuil sé chomh maith againn a rá leis na daoine nach bhfuil an oiread déanta againn dóibh agus ba mhaith linn agus go mba cheart dúinn a dhéanamh dóibh? Is mó an ní é an Bille a bheith os ár gcomhair. Theastaigh cuid mhaith fiosruithe agus cuid mhaith mhisnigh go dtiubharfadh an tAire an Bille isteach ar chor ar bith agus, é bheith ann, is fearr é ná é bheith as.

Is trua liom go bhfuil cúis casaoide ag an Seanadóir Ó Conaill. Ní dóigh liom go ndúirt sé focal iomarcach nuair a bhí sé ag cur síos ar an scéal. Is trua liom narbh fhéidir linn na hiarmhúinteoirí agus seirbhísigh eile fhágháil chomh maith as agus ba cheart, mar gheall ar an athrú atá tagaithe ar bhrí an airgid.

Tá pointe amháin eile ann. Níl fhios agam an mbeadh an tAire ábalta an t-eolas a thabhairt dúinn: Cé mhéad duine atá i gceist? Ba mhaith liom fhios a bheith agam cé mhéad múinteóirí atá i gceist. Bheadh an fhigiúir sin seasmhach. Tá brainnse eile ann agus níl fhios agam cé chaoi bhfuil an scéal fúthu. Mar shompla, cé mhéid sean-phóilíní, sean-R.I.C. agus seanD.M.P., atá ann ag fáil phinsin? Ar dhóigh ghinearálta bheadh spéis agam sna figiúirí. Ba mhaith liom iad d'fháil, más féidir, ón Aire. Murar féidir, b'fhéidir iad fháil trí cheist sa Dáil nó ar shlí éigin eile.

Is maith linn go léir an Bille seo a bheith os ár gcomhair agus an oiread a bheith déanta agus atá. Mar adúirt daoine eile, is trua linn nach bhfuil an oiread déanta agus ba mhaith linn.

For many years since I came into this House, during Finance Bills and Central Fund Bills, it has always been a theme song of mine to seek a revision of teachers' pensions. Their pensions were small because they were based on very small salaries. I would feel that I was wanting in my duty if I did not thank the Minister for having done what he has done in this respect. When Senator Ruane, Senator O'Connell and I pleaded for increased pensions for teachers and said that the disgraceful pensions they were receiving meant that they were allowed to starve, we were told that their pensions could not be increased, presumably because it could not be done without increasing other pensions.

The Minister took the bull by the horns and did the right thing. It is ungracious for us not to thank him. In my own house the increase was very welcome. The Minister has done a generous act in introducing this Bill and it is a pity that we would not give him full praise for his courage and generosity.

I have no objection to the increased pensions. I think it is a pity that we would not have more pensions for more people, but I think the House and the Minister ought to consider the position of the people who are providing the moneys for these pensions. I submit to the House and to the Minister that a great portion of this money comes from the agricultural industry. The year 1949 was a boom year, one of the best years during my long experience of agriculture. Many people believe that we are near one of the greatest slumps that has happened in our time. If that slump comes, the agricultural industry will be in a very sorry plight and will not be able to carry the heavy loads that are being imposed on it from all sides.

I want to refer to the age at which pensions are being paid. I have been told that people got old earlier in Ireland years ago, that they were not as well fed or as well housed as they are to-day and had to endure greater hardships. It is true that with the improvement in health services and the great facilities which we have to-day, people are able to perform effective work up to a later age. The number of people in the late age groups has increased considerably in recent years, and the State is taking on itself a tremendous and unnecessary burden in providing pensions at earlier ages, as it has been doing recently. In any future schemes the Minister for Finance should set his hand against a reduction in the age at which pensions will be granted.

It is very unfair to the young that they should be asked to carry a large number of people who are capable of doing work. By all means, if they are unable to work through ill-health let them retire at an earlier age but there should be a genuine reason for it. I would suggest to the Minister that, in future, these people should be retained to give useful service to the State. We hear a lot about production. Anyone who can give service should be retained as long as he is able to give it effectively.

I support this Bill. It is a pity the Minister was not a bit more generous with the lower paid pensioners. They have to live. There is a considerable number of persons in this country whose pensions are less than £100 a year. Others have pensions of about £150 a year. The cost of living has gone up considerably. If the Minister were to consider the matter in the light of the cost-of-living index figure he might do justice. The prevailing grievance as far as lower paid pensioners are concerned will continue to exist when this Bill has been passed. When the Minister was dealing with the matter he should have dealt with it in a generous way. By no means is this Bill going to satisfy the people. It is better to face up to the fact that the cost of living has considerably increased.

Since when?

For a number of years.

It has not increased since 1947.

I am not going to put the blame on the Minister. The position has to be faced up to, and I do not think it is now being faced in the generous way that people expected. Resolutions on this question have come before public bodies, and come before the Minister and his predecessors, asking that these people should be generously dealt with. I do not think the Minister is dealing generously with them now, or even middling generously. It is to be regretted that he does not see his way to do so. The taxpayers have to pay these pensions, yet they would have no hesitation in giving support to a measure which would deal generously with those affected. I do not think this Bill is meeting the situation. If the Minister decides to meet it now, or in two years' time, he will have my support. It is a pity the position was not met in the generous way that people expected.

I am not going to complain of the manner in which this Bill was introduced or of the amounts that will be awarded to the various pensioners. But I believe that there would be no resentment if higher increases were granted. There is one section of pensioners on whose cases the Minister might have taken a more generous view —those who resigned following the Treaty or those who resigned in 1923. The Minister stated that the cost of living then was nothing like what it is to-day. Many of these people are getting on in years and, at the same time, their position is not too secure. I know some people who received princely sums and on the other hand some got £1 or 22/- a week. I appeal to the Minister to take into consideration the position of such people, and to give them an increase on the lines of what was awarded to those who resigned in 1923, seeing that the position has since worsened. As the cost of living has gone up in the intervening years I appeal to the Minister to deal with them in some way in this Bill.

The comments passed here as to lack of generosity in treatment come very badly from those who supported a Government that would not move a hand's turn for these people. I am doing more than the last Government thought of doing. That is the situation. Did that Government ever indicate any such view when they were appealed to many times in my experience in Dáil Éireann? They always said that they could not afford it. But we found it possible to afford it. Do not forget that in three years increases in pay of civil servants as well as awards to teachers that I have had to meet, as well as the Garda and the Army, are costing this State £2,400,000 a year. If you add this £250,000 it will equate in some way to the cost of living. That is something that was not given before, despite Senator O'Connell's warning that it should be attended to. There is £2,600,000 and only two years to make up the amount. I announced that in the Budget in 1949, about a year after we came in. The number of people affected will be teachers, 2,700, 1,100 civil servants, 250 members of the Garda and D.M.P. as well as 470 resigned and dismissed R.I.C.

It is easy to poke fun at the length of this legislation, but it was more difficult to draft it. I think the drafting of the Bill has been remarkably well done, and if Senator O'Connell has any suggestion I will be glad to put before the draftsman what might be done. Of course this could have been done more simply. The scheme originally was to increase pensions in relation to civil servants, which are related to a particular figure in the cost-of-living index figure. It would be easy to change it in that respect, but then complications arose dealing with Guards and teachers who are on an entirely different basis. It would be very bad treatment to have a flat rate for everyone. The Education Department speaking vehemently on behalf of the teachers caused all this complication.

Did they insist on the deduction of the bonus?

The whole trouble caused to Senator O'Connell and the others was the matter of making calculations. The bonus had to be deducted because, if it was not deducted, the people who got the bonus at a later stage would be better off than the people who got it at an earlier stage, and if you add the percentage over and above some would be better off than others. We did this to get equality by bringing it to its original basis and letting it mount up on that. The Senator could get examples of the way injustices would mount up and if that had been done I suppose we would have had equally vehement protests. In fact, he would have had a better case then because he could point to distinct injustices as between groups. I put it to the House that when this £250,000 was added to the £2,400,000 already taken from the taxpayers in order to improve the conditions of these people I think I ought to get much more of the type of favourable comment I got from Senator Mrs. Concannon rather than the grudging comment I got from Senator O'Connell. Senator O'Connell might go back to the Gospel of about three Sundays ago about the workers in the vineyard. Why should people give me sour looks because I am generous? I have that feeling with regard to Senator O'Connell.

Question put and agreed to.
Ordered: That the next stage be taken on Thursday, 9th March.
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