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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Nov 1951

Vol. 40 No. 3

Private Business. - Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) (No. 3) Bill, 1951 ( Certified Money Bill )— Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is a Bill to give effect to Orders made by the predecessor of the present Minister for Industry and Commerce earlier this year, the first being the Imposition of Duties (No. 26) Order, 1951, which was made on the 20th April, 1951, and came into operation on the 27th of that month. That Order refers to the imposition of duty on commodities which are abrasives. These are manufactured by Abrasives, Limited, Kilmainham, Dublin, who employ about 35 persons. The output of the company is increasing steadily and they are developing an export trade. It is estimated that the value of the home market for abrasives of the type being produced by Abrasives, Limited, is about £45,000.

The second Order was made on 3rd May of this year and came into operation on 10th May. That Order imposes a duty on saws and saw blades which are manufactured by Sandersons of Newbridge, Limited. The firm affords employment to some 28 persons. The company commenced production in 1948 with the manufacture of files and hacksaw blades and these articles were afforded protection at the rate of 37½ per cent. full and 25 per cent. preferential. In January, 1950, the tariff was increased to 75 per cent. full and 50 per cent. preferential. Early in 1951, the company commenced production of wood saws and applied to have the duty extended to include these articles. The Orders which have been made by the predecessor of the present Minister will have effect only for eight months, as the House is aware, and, unless this legislation is passed, will cease to have effect at the end of that period, and I ask the House to give all stages of the Bill to-day.

I had hoped that this Bill would have been recommended by the Minister for Industry and Commerce who is an old friend as well as an old opponent of mine. I have pleasant recollections of numerous debates in which we both took part on former occasions, and I had looked on this occasion as a means of making a kind of range-finding speech to find out whether during the three years he and I were, so to speak, in the political wilderness he had added to his stock of political wisdom and I, perhaps, had added a little to mine, and whether we had come nearer together or had, perhaps, drifted apart.

In connection with a Bill like this it would be desirable to have some explanation of the general economic policy which the Government is pursuing in introducing measures of this kind. It is not the only one we have had over many years and it is typical of many we have had. The Parliamentary Secretary is not responsible for having introduced this particular tax. I think it was introduced by the previous Government in the month of April but the present Government cannot escape responsibility for confirming that duty now, and if I have any criticism to make of the economic policy underlying this and similar measures, that criticism is directed just as much against the present Government as against the former Government or vice versa.

I have great admiration for the Minister for Industry and Commerce which I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will share, but if he has a fault at all it is a fault he shares with the poets and, in particular, with the great lyric poet, Pindar, who on one occasion was advised by a lady friend to sow with the hand and not with the whole sack. In his diligence at sowing new industries throughout the country the Minister has been inclined to be rather diffuse and indiscriminate and I should like to repeat Corinna's advice to Pindar in reference to the Minister. I suggest that discrimination should be exercised in the choice of new industries, and in particular, every effort should be made to see that they fit in with the general national economy, and will add to the real income of the nation as a whole.

Pursuing the same analogy, I might compare, not perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary, but the Minister with the Sower in the Parable. I have often wondered why the sower in that famous parable in the New Testament allowed so much seed to fall anywhere on the roadside or in the ditches or hedges instead of on the good well-tilled-ground. I think that, if careful examination is made, it will probably be discovered that the sower was using a sack which was moth-eaten or full of mouseholes and I sometimes suspect that the sack in which the Minister carries his industrial seeds contains a number of mouseholes or is moth-eaten, with the result that he sometimes drops industries inadvertently without due regard for the general circumstances of the case.

However, I am only too glad to recognise that some seeds fell on good ground and that in the course of the past ten or 20 years we have had established a few industries which were well worth while and which are a source of real strength to our economy; but on the other hand there are one or two instances in which we have encouraged the development of certain industries, which no doubt added to our industrial output but diminished our agricultural output by as much as, and perhaps by a greater amount, than they added to our industrial output. I should like to give an example of that kind of thing, because it has come under my own notice that there is in a town in the Midlands a factory producing wallboard which uses, as its raw material, straw, and one result of that factory's operations has been to bribe the farmers in all that neighbourhood to sell their straw for money to that factory, instead of having it tramped into manure and returned to the ground to fertilise it for future crops. In other words, the farmers have been bribed, as a result of that industry, to sell and to undermine the permanent fertility of their soil. That, as any agriculturalist will tell you, is a thoroughly objectionable thing and a policy which we should by no means favour.

There are other aspects of the matter. On the whole, we have been too much inclined to establish new industries in the east central region of the country, which is a region of great potential agricultural improvement but rather short of manpower. There is a real shortage of agricultural manpower in some of the best farming areas in the east central counties largely as a result of the competition for labour resulting from these new industries now established in so many of our provincial towns. In fact, I know cases in which farmers' sons, who should be working on the family farms which are half neglected, are instead cycling seven, eight and ten miles to work in factories in the neighbouring town, and a farmer here and there might be found who neglects his own farm, who lets it on the 11-months system and makes a living working in one of these new factories.

Any industrial policy which has the incidental result of bringing about the neglect of agriculture is taking away as much from the national income with the one hand as it adds to it with the other, and we should use a wiser discrimination with regard to that kind of development. On the other hand, take, for example, the case of beet. There was a time when I was highly critical of the whole beet policy pursued by this and the former Government, but on the whole, I think that world economic circumstances have changed, and have justified in the event the policy which was pursued in establishing beet growing here and aiming at producing most of our sugar supplies from our own resources; but, in this very area I have in mind, where there are numerous factories in the local country towns, the beet-growing efforts of the farmers are restricted and inhibited because they cannot count on the necessary labour to harvest additional areas of beet and the reason they cannot get that labour is that people are cycling seven, eight and ten miles to a neighbouring town to work in factories instead of working on the land; so that, if you want more beet, you will have to go slow in the matter of establishing new industries in these east central urban centres.

In fact, I would say: "Pipe down on industrial development so far as the fertile agricultural regions are concerned, which are short of man-power," but I would go on to add: "Pipe up on industrial development in the congested districts," where I would welcome the prospect of the Government seriously tackling the question of industrialisation, especially in the Gaeltacht areas. There is one qualification I have to make. Even in the rich agricultural areas which are short of man-power, I welcome the present tendency to develop new industries directly related to the processing of our own agricultural raw materials. In particular, I have in mind the present strongly-marked tendency towards meat processing factories to replace the former practice, which was almost universal, of exporting cattle on the hoof. That is one exception to the undesirability of establishing new industries in the rich east central agricultural regions.

I have the utmost sympathy with any policy which may be devised to give a thoroughly sound economic basis to the people of the Gaeltacht and the congested areas. There you have a situation in which agricultural resources are all too scant and man-power has hitherto been all too numerous. Now we are facing a situation in which the man-power will disappear unless we provide a means of making a tolerable living for the people of the Gaeltacht and diminish the necessity under which many find themselves of either migrating or emigrating. I do not think that the policy of industrialising the Gaeltacht is by any means a chimerical dream. It has been done, and done successfully, in one important part of the Gaeltacht, in Templecrone in South Donegal, where Paddy Gallagher has worked miracles in developing the whole industrial life of the neighbourhood.

If we could by some magic create numerous Paddy Gallaghers throughout the whole of the Gaeltacht, we could transform the whole of that part of the country within one generation. The Minister has elsewhere complained that, whereas industrial output has increased by a substantial percentage in the last ten or 20 years, agricultural output is barely back at pre-war level. I admit that fact and I also deplore it. I suggest that to some extent this indiscriminate policy, to which I have referred, is to blame for the fact that agricultural output has failed to expand, and that he has been taking away from agriculture with the one hand what he gave to industry with the other. In general, I would like to assure the House that I, too, am in favour of a wise policy of agricultural plus industrial development going hand in hand together, with the big brother, agriculture, leading the way, of course.

I apologise if I have said too much about agriculture. I spent my temporary exile from this House in writing a book about agriculture. I hope it will have the result of preventing me from making long speeches about it in the future, as I will be able to refer Senators to the appropriate chapter and page of that book instead. A copy of it will, no doubt, be found in the Library. I hope I have trodden on the coat of the Parliamentary Secretary or of certain other members of the House, who may be disposed to add their contribution to this debate, and so let us have a real debate about one of the most important aspects of our economic policy.

The wide range of remarks by Senator Professor Johnston provokes me to get up and say something about this whole range of protected industries.

I hope Senators will not follow Senator Johnston over such a wide field.

I would refer to the remarks we have heard in the Dáil where, coincident with the desire for more industries and more enterprise on the part of our much maligned industrialists, prominent members in the Dáil have urged that there should be a more stringent review of the industries themselves. Surely it is illogical to expect enterprising people to start industries—and many of them are just as ardent for industrial development, apart from the monetary return, as their critics are—unless they are permitted to initiate and develop their industries without constant carping and, I say quite deliberately, ill-informed criticism, so ill-informed as to amount to venom, with no other effect than to injure the industries concerned.

Senator Johnston has spoken about industrialisation generally. We have a Department of State which exercises a very strict surveillance over protected industries and to which all people engaged in those industries have to submit the most detailed information. That should be accepted and the industries generally should not be subjected to ill-informed and venomous attacks, based upon insufficient information, which do no good to anyone and instead produce splash headlines in the papers, reckless of the injury they do to the industry generally. I could say very much more about this, but perhaps the point I have made is sufficient.

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us when replying if all types of saws are included in the restrictions which have been imposed. I had occasion recently to be interested in procuring a circular saw and found it difficult to get even a second-hand one. I hope that no import duties are being imposed on circular saws.

Senator Johnston made some very interesting remarks about agriculture mainly. I think he indicated that there should be some restrictions on midland farmers selling their straw to mills in the neighbourhood. It would be a bad thing to place any restrictions on farmers in connection with the disposal of their straw. Any effort in that direction would tend to lower production and that would be a wrong policy.

He also referred to beet growing, though I am not sure what angle he took on it. It would not be out of place for me to say that £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 has been spent in the importation of sugar during the last four or five years, and practically £1,000,000 more has been paid out in the last four or five years to farmers in other countries for producing sugar, refined and unrefined agricultural commodities, for us which we could produce at home. The Senator also referred to the Gaeltacht. There is one industry that could very well be taken up there, namely, the growing of potatoes. The people in the Gaeltacht know how to grow potatoes and it would be a profitable business for them. I make the suggestion to the Parliamentary Secretary knowing that he will be interested in getting suggestions of that kind.

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary two questions, the second of which may not arise. Will this measure mean an increase in the prices of the articles which would be protected under it and are any official steps being taken to prevent an increase in price as a result of this duty?

I think it is paradoxical, and I suppose it is really complimentary in a sense, that it has taken the representatives of Trinity College to arouse a debate in the Seanad. It is paradoxical perhaps that both should have this flow of words. I am not quite sure, not being entirely conversant as yet with the procedure of the House, whether Senator Professor Johnston is entirely in order. In a sense it is rather unfair to infer that any Minister for Industry and Commerce has approved of the type of industry which fell out of the hole in the bag as such. The Minister cannot under the Control of Manufacturers Act stop any group of Irish industrialists from starting an industry so long as it complies with that. He may disapprove if you ask him privately, but in so far as official recognition is concerned he must give it.

If such an industry starts, as Senator Johnston says, it is not the Minister's fault. Probably some industrialists are wise to the affair and poor unfortunate farmers are easy to bribe—to the detriment of the soil. Personally however I do not believe that farmers are so foolish. No farmers would be so foolish as to sell their produce to produce industrial articles at a less price to themselves or with less good results than they would get from it themselves. On the other hand I agree with Senator Johnston in his point of view that our whole industrial policy should be related to some extent or correlated with our agricultural policy and I do not think that any of our industrialists could object to that correlation.

In so far as our industries here are not all that they might be, that suggestion of my very near neighbour's comes perilously near to making innuendoes and we have heard something of that from another quarter. This form of implied censure might be done without, I think. This has been an industrial country for only 25 years and yet the most ardent Republicans and dyed-in-the-wool Irishmen cynically criticise some unfortunate man who comes up from the country like myself and gets a few pounds as a result of that. They would rather see an Englishman, a Scotchman or a Dutchman get it. I would appeal to the Minister, whatever attitude he has, not to follow the example from other quarters. There are some men who make mistakes. There are some black sheep and there always will be—perhaps there are some in this House at the moment—but on the whole Irish industry is doing a fair job and if some industries are being developed which are not entirely in the interests of the nation it is not the Minister who is to be blamed but the people who started something which even the Parliamentary Secretary himself could not solve or excuse.

I want to ask something which is very much in order. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether there is any way of seeing that the quality of these goods is kept up to standard. I think that very often if you give a protective duty of 75 per cent. on an article like saws those saws may not be sufficiently well made to allow craftsmen to work them in a proper way. I know that all tradesmen, whether they be carpenters, in the meat trade or anything else, are very keen on having first quality tools. If we could devise some way of ensuring that the articles, particularly those subject to protection, will be at least equal to the standard of the imported article it would be a great safeguard. I feel that the way is very often wide open for people to have sub-standard articles. I do not want to cast any reflection on the items referred to in the Orders but say that in a general way. We should have general protection in a general way.

Mr. Lynch

Senator Johnston, in opening, asked for an indication of general Government economic policy. I presume that he was referring in particular to the Government's policy with regard to decentralisation of industry and the House will get a full opportunity of discussing that when the Minister presents before the House the Undeveloped Areas Bill which is designed for the establishment of industries in areas of low density of population and particularly, in so far as I can achieve it as Parliamentary Secretary whose special care it will be to look after the Gaeltacht and congested areas, as many new industries and expanded industries in the congested and Gaeltacht areas as possible.

I do not want to go into every aspect of the question except to refer to the Senator's parable about the sack with the mousehole lest he might have created the impression that it is for the Minister and the Government to decide where industries are to be established. I am sure that every member will agree that it would be a sad day for industrial life if the Government were to say where industries must be established or set up.

The Government at the present time can do no more than encourage industry to set up in centres as far removed from the centres of dense population as possible. The Bill to which I have referred, the Undeveloped Areas Bill, will give facilities which are designed towards that end. I believe that that is the furthest it would be desirable in a democratic country for the Government to go.

With regard to the location of the particular industry to which the Senator has referred, I believe that it is a good thing even though it be almost within the Pale. That factory was set up in some part of the Midlands and it is a good thing that it is able to be run by the use of native raw materials such as straw. Straw, as the Senator pointed out, is grown very widely around that factory and a lot of it, naturally, is brought in there, as it forms one of the basic raw materials of the output of that factory. It is a good trend to use the raw materials produced here at home, and I believe personally that we have other raw materials which are not used to the fullest in the industries of this country. We hope that that trend indicated by the establishment of factories in the areas to which the Senator referred and in other areas will continue, particularly in so far as they can be based on native raw materials.

Mr. O'Callaghan asked whether the Orders referred to circular saws. There is a distinction. The firm which makes the saws at the present time can only make saws of 48 inches or less, so there will be no duty on circular saws in excess of 48 inches.

Nevertheless, there is a licensing provision attached to this duty. The Minister may recommend that in the event of the firm being unable to supply a particular type of saw, the duty will be raised in respect of that saw.

With regard to the question of price, raised by Senator Professor Stanford, I believe that the price here in regard to saws is about 25 per cent. in excess of that in England but I am happy to say that, with regard to the abrasives, in practically all cases the prices charged here are on a par with those charged by the most famed and well-established industries in Britain.

Could I comment on that? Is there anything to prevent these people running up the price once they get the tariff? That is really the point of my question.

Mr. Lynch

As I said with regard to saws, there is attaching to the duty a licensing provision. If the Minister sees that these protected goods are commanding prohibitive prices, the Minister, in effect, even though he has to go through the Revenue Commissioners, can allow the import of goods in order to keep prices down, by the issue of duty-free licences. As well as that, the accounts of these firms, as most industrialists know, are subject to review by the prices section of the Department and the prices section has had before it the accounts of these two particular firms who are benefiting under these Orders. So. I take it, on all sides and on all points there is sufficient assurance that the standard of work to be turned out by these firms and the prices to be charged will be kept well under control so as to ensure that the Irish people will get a good commodity at a reasonable price.

I do not think there is anything else that requires answering. If there is any point that I can answer, I will be glad to reply to any Senator.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now.
Bill passed through Committee and reported without amendment.

Tuairiscítear an Bille gan leasú.

Could we have that in English also, as I do not know what has happened?

Bill reported without amendment. An céad céim eile.

Might we have all your remarks in English also?

"An céad céim eile" means the next stage and I suggest that Senator Stanford ought to learn that much.

On a point of order. The official languages of the country are Irish and English. I think we must insist on our rights in this matter. Thank you.

It is no harm for Senator Colgan to suggest that Senator Stanford might learn that much, all the same. Is it?

I made no statement that I did not understand what was said. I merely requested, in my own interest, and I think in the interest of other members of the House, that your remarks should always be graciously given to us in English as well as in Irish. I hope we will have your assent to that.

I think it is the duty of every man in this House, no matter what his views are, to promote the knowledge of Irish. Little phrases like this help and I think the Senator ought to help.

Bill received for final consideration, and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.

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