Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Dec 1951

Vol. 40 No. 7

Medical Practitioners Bill, 1951—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

On the Second Reading of this Bill I think it would be well if I gave you a brief resume of the events which led to the decision to introduce it. The British Government set up in 1942 a committee known as the Goodenough Committee, to inquire into the organisation of medical education in Great Britain. That committee, which reported in 1944, recommended that in future medical graduates should be required to spend a year in residence in an approved hospital before they would be permitted to practise their profession independently. The General Medical Council in Great Britain adopted this recommendation and it was later accepted by the British Government. We in this country set up a committee in 1947 to report to the Minister for Health on any changes which were required in the curricula and organisation of medical education here. This committee in its report recommended that medical graduates in this country also should be required to undergo a period of practice in a hospital under the supervision of more experienced doctors prior to being fully registered on our Medical Register. This recommendation was in consonance with the views which the medical teaching bodies had already expressed regarding the desirability of a period of residence after qualification when the Goodenough Report was sent to them for their comments by the General Medical Council.

In 1949 the British Government suggested that there should be discussions between this country and Great Britain regarding the measures which would be necessary in order to continue the arrangements for reciprocal registration which have always existed. The Government were aware at the time of the general feeling among the teaching bodies and the medical profession that the existing arrangements should be continued, and agreed therefore to these discussions. A conference took place in December, 1949, at which it was agreed that reciprocity of registration between the two countries should continue. The complications which the introduction of the period of pre-registration hospital experience entailed made it necessary that legislation should be enacted in both countries, and the agreement reached at the conference provided that such legislation would be introduced. The British, in their Medical Act of 1950, carried out their side of the bargain; this Bill is designed to carry out ours.

The major change which the Bill introduces in medical training in this country is, of course, the requirement of a period of approved hospital training before full registration is granted to a medical graduate. While the length of the period has not been finally determined, it is likely that it will be one year. During this year the graduate will acquire experience in the practice of medicine, surgery and midwifery under the supervision of senior hospital medical officers. During the course of their hospital training the graduates, or interns as they are commonly called, will have the right to practise medicine, but only in so far as will be necessary to enable them to carry out their work in the hospital. They will not be allowed to undertake general practice outside the hospital.

This is the main change which this Bill makes. There is also provision in it to enable the Medical Registration Council to appoint visitors to attend the courses of instruction given by medical schools. The council has, under the Medical Practitioners Act, 1927, power to send inspectors to qualifying examinations to satisfy themselves that the standard of knowledge required at these examinations is adequate. Under this Bill the council will be in a better position to satisfy itself that the courses of instruction given in the medical school during the whole of the students' career are not in any way defective and, therefore, to make recommendations regarding the undergraduate medical courses.

The Medical Practitioners Act, 1927, provided for reciprocity of registration between this country and Great Britain. It was provided in that Act that any person who was registered in the British Register would by virtue of that fact be entitled to be registered on the Irish Register. It has always been doubtful whether or not that proviso extended to those practitioners who had become registered in the British Register by virtue of a reciprocal arrangement between Great Britain and a foreign country, and we are taking this opportunity of clearing up that doubt. In future, only those persons who are registered in the British Register by virtue of a qualification obtained in Great Britain will be entitled, by virtue of their British registration, to become registered in the Irish Register.

In the Dáil, some speakers were inclined to the view that medical education was becoming too expensive and too lengthy and thought that, with the introduction of the requirement of internship, there should be a compensating shortening of the course of study, if such were found possible. I have much sympathy with this point of view and intend to ask the Medical Registration Council to consider the suggestion and see if anything could be done to effect such a shortening without lowering standards. In any event, the lengthening by one year of the time which it will take to become a doctor will not add—to any extent at any rate—to the cost of training. It is expected that salaries will be paid by the hospitals to the graduates during the "intern period".

The Medical Registration Council has, for some time past, been considering the availability of accommodation in the hospitals for graduates wishing to do their intern period. It is estimated that about 300 students will graduate and become provisionally registered each year. This number can all be fitted in in voluntary and local authority hospitals in this country, if necessary though possibly with numbers greater than the optimum in some institutions for a few years until the hospital building programme bears fruit. It is likely, however, that a number of graduates will go to Britain for their internships and this will ease the problem here.

I am satisfied that the innovation introduced by this Bill will lead to an even higher standard of medical education than we have had in this country to date. The standards maintained by the medical profession in this country have always been high; the rapid extension of medical knowledge, however requires that we should not be content to rely on existing methods merely because in the past they have produced satisfactory results, and the introduction of this Bill shows that the medical profession and the medical schools in this country are aware of that fact and wish to ensure that our methods of education in this country are abreast of the latest developments elsewhere.

This Bill is one which undoubtedly will be passed without objection in the House, but it is quite clear that not only is the medical course becoming more expensive for the student but it is also becoming more expensive for the universities and the various teaching bodies, particularly on the basis of the report of what is called the "Goodenough Committee." The course is becoming more expensive, longer and more exacting. Apart altogether from the expense, one of the difficulties of the medical course as of other professional courses is that the student finds it so exacting and so long that he has no time left for general reading, so he is becoming more and more the doctor or the engineer and less and less a cultivated person, although it is generally accepted that it is necessary that professional people should have a wider basis of knowledge and more general reading. But the growth of technical knowledge is really absorbing all their time and all their energies and that is one of the points that is giving very great trouble to the universities and the various teaching bodies. This applies, apart altogether from the question of expense, to the students and to equipment for the teaching bodies.

However, I agree entirely with the Minister that, as this is an agreement made with the British for the preservation of the reciprocity which has always existed, there is nothing we can do about it at this stage. Nevertheless, it is evidence of one of the changes which are taking place and which make the course more expensive, longer and more exacting.

This Bill is an automatic result from two facts. One is the fact that the British Medical Council have introduced the British Act of 1950, sponsored by the General Medical Council. The second fact is that we have a very valuable, in fact, essential and complete reciprocity between the General Medical Council and its opposite number in the Republic, the Irish Registration Council.

This Bill was agreed upon fully as between those two bodies. Therefore, I regard the passage of this Bill as really an automatic thing. It does not purport to deal with the number of very serious problems that will arise when this Bill is implemented. These are very serious problems; in fact it seems to me that some of these problems are almost insoluble. However, I am sure they will and can be satisfactorily solved within the framework of the British Act and the Act which we are enacting now.

Senator Hayes has pointed out, as have Deputies in the Dáil, the fact that the training of youths for the medical profession is becoming more and more expensive and very prolonged. We claim in this country that we turn out the finest body of medical men in any place in the world, but to a certain extent our hands are tied by the fact that we must be fellow-travellers with the British Medical Council if we are to keep the market open for our young men. We must and we are glad to do it. They have to legislate to a certain extent in order to suit us and we also have to include in our legislation things that we are not very keen on. We recognise their difficulty and, whether we like it or not we must meet them to that extent. I hope that some of these peculiar problems which will arise, mainly in regard to finance, will prove to be soluble within the framework of these two Acts.

For some time I have had some connection with the University Appointments' Committee of the National University. It struck me how deplorable it was that our universities seem so intent upon getting a market abroad for our young men. It seems to me peculiar that a very short time ago we were discussing the Undeveloped Areas Bill but when we are talking about medical doctors it seems we are discussing overdeveloped areas. In so far as this Bill will make it easier for young Irishmen who become doctors to get employment in England or elsewhere, I am opposed to it. What is missing, in my view, is educational guidance for intending medical students.

I hope my friend, Senator Barniville, will not misunderstand me when I say that some of the people who have, in one way or another, become doctors were not educationally guided during that period. It would be very desirable if we could do something by way of this Bill to provide such educational guidance for young Irishmen who wish to become doctors—a guidance which might, in fact, divert their abilities to other sources for which they might have more natural propensity. In that way I feel we would avoid creating an export market for our young doctors. Some years ago Professor O'Rahilly of Cork discussed the trouble we had at that period with the British Medical Association. I will welcome this Bill if it can, as I said before, in any way prevent our young doctors from going abroad. I admit there have been medical discoveries in both the National University and in Trinity College who have earned fame for our country abroad. Nevertheless, I maintain that medicine is an "overdeveloped area."

I would like to correct Senator O'Donnell on a small point. He said it was the policy of the universities to export our young doctors and that medical students should have more educational guidance.

It is not the policy of the universities to create an export market. The university with which I am very familiar is very zealous in its endeavour to get accommodation for medical students. Neither these students nor their parents need educational guidance, because both parties are aware of the conditions operating for medicine and of the market for it. The position is that there is a bigger demand for doctors abroad than there is here, and what are we going to do about it?

Is dóigh liomsa gurab í an phriomh cheist atá ceangailte leis an mBille seo agus an ní a bhéas ann nuair a bheidh an Bille ina dhlí ná an méid slí a bhéas sna hóspidéil chun glacadh isteach leis na daoine óga seo ar fad agus an bhliain sin ag cleactadh leighis a choimhlíonadh sar a mbeidh siad i dteideal glacadh le posta. Ba mhaith liom eolas a bheith agam an bhfuil aon réiteach nó aon bheartú á dhéanamh leis na hóspidéil chun níos mó daoine a ghlacadh isteach mar dhochtúirí cónuithe ná mar a bhí cheana.

Ceist eile atá ann, an bhfuil leathnú le déanamh ar na háiteanna ina nglacfaí daoine isteach, óispidéil contae agus óspidéil in áiteanna eile seachas Baile Atha Cliath, Gaillimh agus Corcaigh? Sin í an cheist—an mbeidh ar post-graduates.—agus beidh—an bhliain sin do choimhlíonadh ag cleachtadh leighis in óspidéil sara mbíonn siad í dteideal post poiblí a ghlacadh? Sin é an rud atá ann. An bhfuil sé anois ina bhaol go mbeadh duine b'fhéidir bliain ar fad agus gan slí dó i n-aon óspidéal chun na h-oiliuna úd do choimhlionadh de bharr an ní seo a bheith sa mBille? B'fhéidir go bhfuil eolas ag an Aire ina thaobh sin. An bhfuil aon réiteach speisialta déanta nó á bheartú, chun an fhaibh sin a réiteach?

B'fhéidir go rachfaidh cuid de na post-graduates go dtí óspidéil i Sasana nó óspidéil thar lear ach is dóigh liomsa go bhfuil, ar slí, ceangailte orainn an chaoi sin do chur ar fáil dóibh.

B'fhéidir go bhfuil eolas ag an Aire gurb í sin an cheist nua atá ann de bharr an rud seo a chur 'na dhlí.

I want to refer to the difficulties imposed by adding an extra year to the curriculum of seven years. I think this difficulty could be met by the intelligent teaching of science in the schools. If the student already knew something of chemistry and physics he could join a medical school straighway. Otherwise he will have to spend an extra year studying subjects which should really be taught in schools. I think we should look to the schools for assistance in this matter.

I would be glad if the Minister would explain the position in connection with this provisional registration. If a person who qualifies highly in his final year at medicine does not put in this extra year practising in a hospital or institution, will he continue to be, what one might call, a provisional doctor? He will never, as far as I can make out, get his final qualification as a doctor. It is not quite clear to me, reading this Bill, but I gather if he does not spend this extra year——

He can never practise freely.

——that he will never become a qualified doctor but will continue to be provisionally registered and so be a provisional doctor. It would be a great help if we could get a more appropriate term, either in Irish or in English, than this term "provisional registration". However, I am sure it is not very easy to get a suitable term. The only question I wanted to ask was this: Will the student who does not add this extra year to his curriculum remain a provisional doctor for the rest of his life?

If a student does his final examination in a university or medical school and does not complete his internship in a hospital or similar institution he will only be provisionally registered. That is to say, he will be entitled to practise in a hospital only under the supervision of senior medical men. Until he has done that year, and until the hospital has given him a certificate, he cannot get his proper registration. It is not likely, I think, that any young man will, as it were, suspend himself in that position. If he gets that far he will spend his internship year.

In regard to the question raised by An Seabhac, there are negotiations taking place at present between the hospitals and the Medical Registration Council. They arrange these matters, not the Department of Health. The Medical Registration Council believe that there will be room enough in the hospitals of this country for all the students doing their intern year. There will be about 300 such students. As I mentioned already the number at the present time is about 80 in the voluitary hospitals, and under the new rule these hospitals will have to accommodate 220, while the local authority hospitals, which now accommodate 40, must from now on take on 80. The Medical Registration Council believe that there will be sufficient room for that number. The British hospitals will pay more to their interns, and some may go across in order to get the higher money, and in the hope of getting a situation when the intern period is over.

Senator O'Donnell raised the question that this Bill is not making it easier for our young doctors to get situations in this country. In all fairness to the students who are already studying to become doctors, they will have to be given the option of going to England or elsewhere when they qualify. I would be quite prepared to discuss that point with the Senator, but we could not say to a medical student who will qualify next year: "You must get a job at home or not at all." If such were considered good policy it would have to apply to students who have not yet commenced their course. Those who have commenced their course, however, have started on it with the expectation that when they have finished they can look abroad for a job if they do not get one at home. We will have to make sure that such a course is left open for this particular group.

A point was raised by Senator Hayes and referred to by Senator Fearon with regard to the long course for this profession. Senator Hayes said that the course was long, expensive and exacting. It is much longer in recent years.

Just before I started medicine it was four years; now it is seven. It may be that the extended course will discourage boys from going for medicine and it does appear to me to be a long course. Senator Hayes has pointed out that the course is so exacting that students are becoming less and less cultivated. I do not know; perhaps they are, but I think, looking back on my time, there was not much room for to acquire that cultivation. I think, however, that it is a great pity that the course should be so long. I think our universities— and some of those who have contact with the universities are members of this House—have carried on the old tradition under which universities were supposed to be places where students got a liberal education, and spent their summer holidays travelling on the Continent and their winter holidays in Switzerland.

That was never the case in the Minister's time.

We did not spend our holidays in that way but the presumption was that we were going to do that. It is a great pity that we do not recognise the fact that young men now going to the universities go there mainly to get their qualifications in engineering and medicine and that they are not so interested in the cultivation to which the Senator referred. It is a great pity, too, that the professors would not voluntarily agree to work for an eight months' course instead of a six and a half months' course and in that way the period of studies would be made much shorter.

Does the Minister think it is really feasible to make the engineering and medicine courses eight and a half months?

I think so.

Has he examined the question?

No, not sufficiently.

I thought he had not.

But it should be possible for the professors to work for eight months in the year instead of six and a half.

The idea that professors work for only six and a half months of the year is ludicrous.

That is the period during which the lectures last.

That is quite a different thing.

If it is the case that an individual professor wants to do other things, it would be much better to have two professors instead of one and to have an eight months' course instead of six months. I think it is a ridiculous complaint that the Universities cannot give a liberal education to students seeing that students under the present system cross to the Isle of Man and other places to find employment in hotels. That is not calculated to cultivate them. I was pressed in the Dáil on this matter and I had to undertake to speak to the registration council and to ask them would it be possible to reduce the course a year or two. Of course, the Medical Registration Council if they have not any respect for me, may have some respect for the Dáil and when I do make these representations to them, I hope Senators who are here and who may have some influence in the matter will give sympathetic consideration to these representations.

Is not the present tendency calculated to add to the number of chronic medical students?

I am told that there are not so many chronic medicals as there used to be. I think they cannot afford to be chronic medicals nowadays.

They would want to be millionaires to be cronic medicals nowadays.

Another suggestion made was that the pre-medical year which is done at present in the medical school and consists of courses in chemistry, physics, botany and zoology, might be pursued in another school. Senator Fearon suggests that it might be done in the secondary school. I suppose that would be possible, but I do not know if that would shorten the course as they would have to do it in some school or other. It is possible that they might work harder in the secondary school than in the university. These are matters, however, that do not arise on this Bill as they are matters for future discussion with the various authorities.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now.
Sections 1 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Question proposed: "That Section 9 stand part of the Bill."

The first line of this section states:—

"The council may appoint persons, not being members of the council, to visit places where instruction is given."

I wonder why is it necessary to specify that they should not be members of the council because it appears to me that members of the council themselves would be in closer contact with the universities and could subsequently report back to the council more appropriately than a person who is outside the council. The matter has arrested my attention because of the fact that I have some knowledge of another council of a similar kind which appoints persons to visit universities and they need not necessarily be outside the council. A member of the council can visit the teaching institutions. I should like to get some explanation from the Minister as to why it is necessary in this Bill to specify that they are not to be members of the council.

I might say that this section had the full concurrence of the council itself. The idea I believe is that the visitor will report to the council and the council will look upon the report in a very objective way. I think if you have a member reporting to his own council, there is just the danger that they will not consider the report as objectively as when it is made by an outside person.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 10 to 13 inclusive and the Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

Ba mhaith liom ar an ocáid seo Nollaig shona agus Ath-Bhliain fé mhaise a ghuí do na Seanadoirí go léir. May I take this opportunity of wishing Senators a very happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

The Seanad adjourned at 9.40 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 9th January, 1952.

Top
Share