I made an opening statement. I presume I need not make another.
Garda Siochána Pensions Order, 1951—Motion of Approval (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Seanad hereby approves of the Garda Síochána Pensions Order. 1951, made on the 29th day of December, 1951, by the Minister for Justice, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance, under Section 13 of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925, and laid before the Seanad on the 5th January, 1952.—(Senator Quirke).
I think this Order should be approved. We have had an opportunity of studying it since the Minister made his opening statement. I presume there are people who would not regard it as perfect, but this is not a perfect world and the Order is certainly an improvement on the previous condition of things. I think it should be approved.
This Order is certainly an improvement, but at the same time there are a few points that might be brought to the notice of the Minister in connection with it. I do not know if the House has any authority, or can in any way change the Order, but I think we should be in a position to draw the Minister's attention to anything which we consider should not be in it, or to anything that is not in it that should be there.
On page 2 of this Order, in connection with the critical date, there is a reference to the case of a person below the rank of superintendent attaining the age of 60 years; of a person of the rank of superintendent or chief superintendent at the age of 63 years; and of a person higher than the rank of chief superintendent, at the age of 65 years.
There is a slight distinction there. I have consulted some of the Gardaí in this connection, and I feel that the Order should be extended to cover all the existing members of the force. I believe there are only about 40 Gardaí affected by this Order, and they would be, I think, what we would call the foundation staff of the Gardaí—people who joined at an advanced age and who are now over 60 years of age. I think the Minister should consider including the few people who are affected by the Order in the pensions and gratuities scheme that is before us.
On the same page the Order states: "The Minister shall not accept an application referred to in subparagraph (b) of paragraph 1 of this Article unless he is satisfied that the applicant is in good health and for that purpose the Minister may require the applicant to undergo such medical examination as the Minister may direct." I think that is rather unfair, and it is something which should not be in this Order, because if a Garda must undergo a medical examination and if, through any little defect, his health has broken down in the service, he might not be accepted for registration under this Order.
A further point to which I would like to draw the Minister's attention is in regard to computation of pension. I think the pension will be computed on the basis of the salary paid to the Garda and no consideration is being taken of his emoluments. I hope the Minister will, in computing the salary of the Garda, take into consideration the emoluments appertaining to the office; for instance, uniform, rent, and other allowances. In most pension schemes such emoluments are taken into consideration and in this case I believe the Minister should consider revising the Order to include them in computing the pension.
The Order also states that a Garda must have 33 years' service to get the maximum gratuity. It is the feeling of people with whom I have been in touch that the maximum gratuity should be payable on the expiration of 30 years' service. As I have said, this affects only about 40 members of the force. It is a matter that will not recur, because the system of recruitment at the present time will ensure that every Garda will, on reaching the age of 50 years, have the maximum 30 years' service.
I might say, at the outset, that this Order cannot be amended. It must be either accepted or rejected. In regard to the first point, the Gardai to whom the Senator refers have had the benefit of considerable extension of time, because formerly each Garda retired at the age of 57 and in the time of the last Government that was extended to 60 years. The Gardaí over 60 are the only ones now being debarred; that is, a Garda up to the rank of inspector. In the case of the higher officers, it is 63 whereas it used to be 60, so in that case if those men have to retire at 57 they will have a grievance. Every Garda up to the rank of inspector had to retire at 57 and these particular people had three years, plus whatever time they could compute over 60 years, and thus had an advantage over those retiring at 57. However, I do not see much chance of anything being done under this Order. As I say, it must be either accepted or rejected.
On the matter of health, the Minister for Finance would certainly not agree to take a man who was in bad health and allow him to opt for this scheme. Anyway, the State is going to lose in the beginning in giving this gratuity. It will lose a considerable sum by having to give a gratuity, which is a new thing. If a man in bad health is allowed to opt and thus become entitled to the full gratuity, the Minister for Finance, who has to provide all the money for such schemes, will not agree. I think there will be very little chance of that being accepted. Of course, there will be other opportunities for application, as the matter has only started. It was threshed out with the representative body, and when I was introducing this Order I said they were not satisfied but that, at the same time, they thought it an improvement on the position that existed heretofore.
I will now touch on the question of emoluments. Some public servants have emoluments calculated for pension purposes, but others have not. This matter also was threshed out with the representative body and what has been arrived at is the best possible solution. The Minister for Finance felt that the expenditure would be much more than he could undertake. Of course, the representative body was not completely satisfied but, on the whole, they were fairly satisfied. I do not want it to be felt that a matter such as this was passed over without consideration. Such was not the case.
To get the maximum pension, a civil servant must serve for 45 years, while a Garda will get the maximum pension after 33 years' service. I feel that the Gardaí have no grievance whatever because on account of having to retire at an early age they are allowed a double year for every year served after 20 years.
The Garda is contributing towards his pension, but the civil servant is not.
I will repeat that a Garda is entitled to full pension after he has served for 33 years, while a civil servant does not qualify for full pension until he has given 45 years' service to the State. The Garda, furthermore, gets a double year for every year served after 20 years on account of having to retire at an early age. I think they have a considerable advantage there and I therefore ask the Seanad to accept this Order.
Question put and agreed to.