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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jul 1952

Vol. 40 No. 26

Veterinary Surgeons Bill, 1952—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to make further provision in relation to the teaching of veterinary surgery and the regulation of the veterinary profession and for certain other matters incidental thereto. The veterinary profession and veterinary education in this country are governed by the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931, which ratified an agreement made in 1930 between the Irish Government and the British Government. This Act provides, amongst other things, for

(i) the holding of examinations by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and the registration of veterinary students on successful completion of their course;

(ii) the establishment of an Irish Veterinary Council and the representation of the Irish veterinary profession on the General Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons;

(iii) arrangements in regard to such matters as fees payable by veterinary practitioners, the procedure for taking disciplinary action in regard to members of the profession in Ireland, and the superintendence of the examinations at the Veterinary College, Dublin.

In Ireland the only training centre for students who desire to become veterinary surgeons is the Veterinary College at Ballsbridge, Dublin, which is controlled and administered by the Department of Agriculture. This college has since its inception in the year 1900, been affiliated to the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, London. By reason of that affiliation, it is the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons that holds at the Dublin Veterinary College the examinations leading to the award of the diploma of M.R.C.V.S., which is the professional qualification in this country. Students who obtain the M.R.C.V.S. diploma after passing the necessary examinations at the Dublin Veterinary College are, as a result of the 1930 agreement referred to, entered on both the Irish Register of Veterinary Surgeons and on the General Register kept by the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, and persons on the general register are also eligible for entry on the Irish register. It is by reason of this that our veterinary trainees, after obtaining the M.R.C.V.S. diploma at the Veterinary College, Ballsbridge, are able, if they so wish, to practise in Great Britain and countries of the British Commonwealth.

Under the British Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1948, which became law on the 30th July, 1948, certain important changes affecting the training of veterinary surgeons and the veterinary profession in Great Britain were made. Previous to the passing of this Act, the only portal of entry to the veterinary profession in Great Britain was, just as it is now in our country, the Diploma of M.R.C.V.S., obtainable by students who had attended a recognised veterinary college and passed the examination held by the Royal College. The most important change made by the Act of 1948 was to provide that, under certain conditions, veterinary degrees conferred by specified universities would be accepted by the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons as registrable professional qualifications, instead of being academic distinctions only. This change necessitated a reconstitution of the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. The Act provided for this reconstitution, which has been carried out. An important section of the Act provides for giving effect by Order in Council to agreements with the Government of Ireland in regard to such matters as the recognition, for the purpose of registration in the General Register, of degrees conferred by a university in Ireland where, under the law of Ireland, such degrees qualify the holders to registration in the Irish Register of Veterinary Surgeons, and the appointment or election, in accordance with the terms of such agreement, of Irish representatives on the reconstituted Council of the Royal College.

From the end of 1946, in anticipation of the enactment of the British Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1948, the Department of Agriculture had had discussions with representatives of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and of the British Government. The British were anxious that Ireland should bring into operation an arrangement similar to theirs, and the Department of Agriculture, on their side, felt it would be anomalous that our students at the Veterinary College, Ballsbridge, should be the only veterinarians in these islands who would still have only one portal of entry to the profession, namely, the examinations held by the Council of the Royal College, while the members of the profession in Great Britain could qualify through the universities.

It is appropriate for me to mention here that, since 1946, an arrangement has existed under which veterinary students may obtain degrees in veterinary science at University College, Dublin, and at Trinity College concurrently with their courses in the Veterinary College. The National University confers the degree of M.V.B. (Bachelor of Veterinary Medicine) on students who pass the university examinations and after they have obtained their M.R.C.V.S. diplomas. At Dublin University the degree B.Sc. (Vet.) is conferred on students who obtain the degree of B.A. and the M.R.C.V.S. diploma. For the purpose of this arrangement, the National University, in May, 1946, voluntarily and on their own initiative, established by statute of the university a Faculty of Veterinary Science and appointed the professors of the Veterinary College part-time professors of the National University. The degrees obtainable under the existing arrangement are not registrable as professional qualifications. The legislation now proposed in this Bill provides a means by which degrees such as those at present obtainable could be accepted as registrable professional qualifications.

In the course of the discussions with the British authorities, it was recognised on both sides that it would be necessary to have a new comprehensive agreement between the two Governments and discussions were held on matters to be incorporated in the agreement under the following heads:—

(i) Reciprocity in regard to the registration in the Irish Register and in the General Register of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

(ii) The continuance, for some time, of the existing portal of entry to the veterinary profession in this country by means of the diploma examinations of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

(iii) The provision of a new basis of representation of Ireland on the reconstituted Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons so as to include university representatives as well as representatives of the veterinary profession in this country.

(iv) Such matters as the superintendence of examinations, disciplinary investigations and the payment of fees by persons registered in both registers.

Pending the enactment of the necessary legislation here and the drawing up of a comprehensive agreement pursuant to that legislation, it was thought desirable to make a temporary arrangement for the representation of Ireland on the reconstituted Council of the Royal College, which held its first general meeting on 1st June, 1949, and accordingly an interim agreement to deal with that point (and another point in relation to the payment of fees) was discussed and settled in London on the 11th May, 1949, between the representatives of the two Governments. Attached to the Bill is a copy of this agreement.

Progress with this Bill has been unavoidably held up. Although leave was given to introduce the Bill in the Dáil on the 18th July, 1950, the then Minister for Agriculture did not subsequently find it practicable to proceed with the further stages before the dissolution last year. The enactment of this legislation is necessary in order to give registrable status to university degrees, and it should no longer be delayed. Accordingly, I desire now to proceed with this Bill.

The Bill itself is short and simple. I have explained its background and will now comment briefly on its provisions. The most important section in the Bill, namely Section 2, will enable the Government, in the circumstances set out in that section, by Order to direct that any person on whom a veterinary degree is conferred by a university in the State shall, on applying in the prescribed manner and paying the requisite fee, be registered in the register of veterinary surgeons maintained by the Veterinary Council of Ireland. Sub-section (2) of this section provides power for the revocation of any such Order.

Section 3 of the Bill will enable the Veterinary Council of Ireland to appoint persons to visit any college or other institution in relation to which an Order under Section 2 is in force and to report to the Minister for Agriculture upon the courses of study, staffing, accommodation and equipment available for training in veterinary surgery and on the examinations leading to a degree.

Section 4 confirms the interim agreement made with the United Kingdom Government on 20th May, 1949, and provides a flexible arrangement by which the Government may give effect to any further agreements that may be made with the United Kingdom Government in relation to the training, registration and control of veterinary surgeons. As mentioned by me already a new comprehensive agreement will require to be made with the United Kingdom Government as soon as practicable after this Bill is enacted.

The Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931, under which the Veterinary Council of Ireland was constituted, contained no provision for later reconstitutions of the council. The flexible provision made for such reconstitutions under Section 5 of the Bill is necessary not only because of the change the Bill provides for in the system of veterinary training but because a reconstitution of the council will also become necessary under the proposed comprehensive agreement with the United Kingdom Government and possibly under any further such agreements.

Section 6 will enable the Minister for Agriculture, at the request or with the concurrence of the Veterinary Council, by regulation to make desirable or necessary alterations in certain minor matters at present fixed by the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931.

Section 7 of the Bill will give the Veterinary Council of Ireland an additional disciplinary power, namely that of suspending the registration of a veterinary surgeon in a case where the council does not wish to go so far as to erase his name from the register. A corresponding power was given to the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, London, under Section 16 of the British Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1948.

Sections 8, 9 and 10 of the Bill have been inserted at the instance of representatives of the veterinary profession. Section 8 strengthens the provisions made by the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931, against the practice of veterinary surgery by unregistered persons.

Section 9 gives the Veterinary Council the express power to acquire, hold and dispose of land. Section 10 provides for the acceptance of gifts by the council. Section 11 provides that the Bill, when enacted, shall be construed as one with the Veterinary Surgeons Act, 1931.

In conclusion, I should mention that before introducing this Bill I discussed its provisions with representatives of the veterinary profession and of the National University and of Dublin University. They all expressed themselves as satisfied with the measure.

Just one word more. This Bill does not deal with the future control of the Veterinary College, which is not even mentioned. One of the Bill's main purposes is to enable veterinary degrees to be given by the universities which will be registrable qualifications. They are at present giving degrees which cannot be registered. The other main purpose of the Bill is to enable the Government to enter into agreements with the British Government about reciprocity of treatment of veterinary surgeons here and in Great Britain. This Bill is necessary, whatever is to be the future of the Veterinary College. If a new institute is to embrace the Veterinary College, then separate legislation will be needed for that purpose, but the provisions of this Bill will also continue to be needed.

I heartily congratulate the Minister on the introduction and passage of this Bill through the Dáil, and on its introduction in the Seanad this evening. We, the members of the veterinary profession, have been anxiously waiting for this Bill for three years. Actually, as the Minister has explained, the Bill confirms the agreement which is published in the schedule to it, an agreement which was made in 1949. Therefore, we have actually been waiting three years in order to give that agreement the force of the law by the passage of this Bill through the Dáil and Seanad.

The main parts of the Bill will, I am sure, be acceptable to the members of the Seanad as they have been acceptable to members of the Dáil. This Bill is not in any way a controversial measure, and I assume that the members of the Seanad will be ready to give their assent to the various sections it contains. Since I came to the House to-day several members have approached me for information concerning this Bill, and mentioned that they had not got copies of it. Their inquiry, I think, illustrates to some extent the delay that has gone on in connection with the Bill over the last three years. The Bill, in fact, was circulated early in the year, so that some Senators must have forgotten that they had actually received copies of it. However, I did give them some explanation of the purpose of the Bill.

Senators should understand that, formerly, it used to be the boast of the veterinary profession, both here and in Great Britain, that there was only one portal of entry to the profession: on the fact that there was only one body supervising the whole course which the students had to follow from the time they entered a veterinary college until they had qualified. A change in that position occurred in Great Britain, but not here. Our own Veterinary College was, I presume, in a position to cater fully for the profession in Ireland. It was able to provide for the education of the students and their examination. As a matter of fact, at the moment there is such a big waiting list that there are many students who cannot gain access to the Veterinary College. However, it was on the other side that they solved the problem by getting a greater number of teaching institutions and, therefore, the Veterinary Surgeons Act of 1948 was passed. That was four years ago. When that Act was passed, it conferred on five universities in England, Scotland and Wales the power of establishing in each a faculty of veterinary medicine. We are still awaiting ratification of the proposal whereby our universities can grant qualifying degrees. Our students, otherwise, would be the only students who would still be examined under the auspices of the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. That would be a very invidious position.

The members of the veterinary profession wholeheartedly welcome this Bill. It is simply an enabling Bill to allow universities to grant registrable degrees. Students who are going through the college at present will be anxious to see this Bill implemented as soon as possible. In recent years students have had to undergo two series of examinations. Every professional examination each year had to be duplicated—the ordinary college examination and a similar examination under the jurisdiction of the National University. Trinity College had it easier, because there were fewer students. They had not to conduct duplicate examinations each year. It will be realised that the fact that the student had to undergo a second examination proved a grave hardship. The answer, of course, was that it was the student's own wish to do it. At the end of five years a student got the degree of M.R.C.V.S. and also the degree of M.V.B. The M.V.B. degree is similar to that which the medical student obtains except that "V." is inserted to indicate that the holder is a bachelor of veterinary medicine.

The Minister has explained that the object now is to put us in a position similar to that of certain British and Scottish universities. The degree which they confer is a registrable degree entitling the student to practise veterinary surgery and veterinary medicine. One of the results of the Bill will be the elimination of the system of duplicate examination in this country.

The passing of this Bill to-night does not end the matter. I appeal to the Minister, once this Bill becomes law, to come to a final agreement with the Council of the Royal College as quickly as possible. The Irish Veterinary Council has been in contact with the Council of the Royal College with regard to arrangements to be made between the two Governments. Members of the profession on both sides of the Irish Sea are in agreement on the matter. All we want is agreement between the two Governments and the speedy implementation of this Bill when it becomes an Act.

I appeal to the Minister to speed up the negotiations with the British Government. Negotiations have already been carried on between the representatives of the Irish Veterinary Council and the representatives of the Royal Council. We have practical agreement so far as fees and other matters are concerned. All we require is governmental implementation of what we have practically agreed on already in our negotiations. As the Minister has said, a new agreement will be drafted which will operate for the students on this side of the water as well as the students in Britain. There will be no alteration in present practice when this Bill becomes an Act. When a veterinary surgeon is registered in Britain he will be entitled to practise in this country and when an Irish veterinary student qualifies he can be registered on the Royal College register and practise in Britain.

Certain financial benefits also will accrue to the Irish Veterinary Council which, up to the present, has been different from the councils of the sister professions in this country. They would have no place to meet were it not for the good offices of the Minister who allows the council to meet in the premises at Ballsbridge. The Irish Veterinary Council need headquarters in the city similar to the pharmacists and the medical bodies. They need their own library, and so forth. Up to the present, they have not had the money for that purpose, because portion of the retention fee which is paid to the Irish Council has had to be transferred to the Royal College, and that has left the Irish Veterinary Council in straitened financial circumstances. For that reason also, I hope the Minister will finish the good work which he has undertaken as quickly as possible. There has been a delay of three years in bringing this Bill before the Oireachtas.

It is clear from the Minister's opening statement and from the speech of Senator Sean O'Donovan that the House will speedily pass this measure. I presume the Minister will be able to tell us that the delay which has taken place was not due to any lack of goodwill on the part of his predecessor in office. I am quite certain that the purposes for which this Bill is designed to serve are essential, and that we would be prepared to cooperate in their regard. It comes rather as a surprise to many of us to learn that the veterinary profession— that all-important profession in this country—is not in the same position as other professions.

When the text of this Bill reached me I tried to discover the exact position of the veterinary profession in this country. From what Senator Seán O'Donovan said, it is obvious that the Minister has more work to do in this connection. It is important work, and it should be done quickly and efficiently. People in Ireland who have experience, and who realise the vital part which the veterinary profession plays in the economic life of our country, must do everything possible to give the body concerned the official status which we already credited it with having. Veterinary officers and members of that profession make an immense contribution to the economic well-being of the country.

Many difficulties can be resolved only if the veterinary officers in this country are given the status which, from every point of view, they should enjoy together with the power to organise their profession to enable them to collect evidence and information, to study the problems that confront them and to be in a position to resolve problems in veterinary science which, I take it, because of present circumstances, they cannot tackle to-day. This is not the moment to go into a debate on anything beyond what is contained in the Bill, which is really a machinery Bill, but those of us who appreciate the significance of what the veterinary surgeon means to our live-stock industry to day, and who can contemplate the contribution he can make to the improvement and the better development of the live-stock industry in the future, must be prepared to make all the contribution we can to whatever advances the members of the profession feel are necessary to enable them to do their job better. I welcome the Bill and I am sure the House will be prepared to give it a speedy passage.

Ón méid eolais atá agam faoi na hOllscoileanna is eol dom an socrú sealadach a bhí i bhfeidhm i rith cúpla bliain nó trí maidir le gnáth theagasc agus gnáth scrúdú tréidliachta. Ní raibh sin sásúil mar ní fhéadfaí leanúint de. Tá morán eolais, áfach, ab áil linn bheith againn i dtaobh an socrú do luaigh an tAire faoi aitheantas Ollscoile do na h-ollúna sa choláiste tréidliachta. Do réir mar adubhairt an tAire, tá aitheantas ollscolda anois ag na h-ollúna úd agus stampa na h-Ollscoile ar theastaisí an Choláiste Tréidliachta. An ndeineann san ollúna ollscoile díobh agus má dheineann cé hiad a thoghfas ollúna nua ins an choláiste sin i nDroichead na Dothra feasta? An é ceann de na hOllscoileanna nó an dá Ollscoil le chéile nó an iad na h-udaráis tréidliachta féin agus Comhairle na dTréidlia a thoghfas ollúna nua? Ní eile fós, cad as a thiocfas airgead cothuithe an choláiste sin feasta? An mbeidh aon bhaint aige le vóta na nOllscol nó an bhfanfaidh sé fé mar atá sé cheana le vóta na Roinne Talmhaíochta nó na Roinne go mbaineann sé leis.

Tá beagán den tsaghas sin eolais de dhíth orainn. Is é éifeacht an athruithe seo atá beartuithe ná stampa Ollscoile a chur ar theastaisí cáilíochta tréidlia, rud is ionmholta agus rud is riachtanach a dhéanamh chun iad a chur ar aon status le hinnealtóirí, dochtúirí leighis agus lucht dlí, ach níl sé róléir ar fad an racfadh an Coláiste seo ar ball ar fad leis na Ollscoileanna nó an gcoimeádfar an Coláiste Tréidliachta ar siubhal agus ligint dó gníomhú as féin agus a chuid féin oilliúna agus teagaisc a sholáthair agus a riar gan cur isteach air?

Níl aon ní eile le rá agam ach molaim an Bille. Ba mhithid fadó a leithéid agus ba mhithid fadó go mbeadh status léinn, status oideachais nó status acadúil chomh hárd ag tréidlia agus atá ag an gnáth dhochtúir leighis, innealtóir agus ailteoir agus daoine eile den tsaghas sin. Molaim an Bille.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take the remaining stages to-day.
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