Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 1956

Vol. 46 No. 11

Pigs and Bacon (Amendment) Bill, 1956—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

This Bill proposes to incorporate in permanent legislation certain powers in connection with the fixing of prices for pigs and certain prohibitions in regard to pigs of a colour other than all white, both of which have hitherto been provided for by Emergency Powers Orders. It also amends the Pigs and Bacon Acts in a number of respects, most of the amendments being necessitated by the Export Price Guarantee Scheme for Grade A bacon introduced at the end of last April when the Pigs and Bacon Agreement of 1951 expired.

As regards the fixing of prices for pigs, the Pigs and Bacon Acts of 1935 and 1937 established a system of fixed prices for all pigs purchased by bacon curers. Experience showed, however, that this system lacked flexibility and that it was not in the long-term interests of producers, especially those who marketed the best pigs. In 1943 the system of fixed prices for pigs was suspended by Emergency Powers Order, and instead the Pigs and Bacon Commission was required to prescribe minimum prices for all pigs purchased by curers. In practice, however, pig prices were allowed to find their own level and that position obtained up to the introduction of the Export Price Guarantee Scheme for Grade A bacon in April last. In connection with that scheme it was arranged that producers should receive minimum prices of 235/- per cwt. deadweight for Grade A pigs and 230/- per cwt. deadweight for Grade B1 pigs delivered to bacon factories and those minimum prices were fixed by Order.

The Bill now proposes to continue the power of the Pigs and Bacon Commission to fix minimum prices for pigs purchased by curers on a dead-weight basis. It also continues the suspension of the system of fixed prices for pigs established by the prewar Pigs and Bacon Acts, but enables the suspension to be removed and reintroduced at any time by Order of the Minister for Agriculture.

As regards the prohibitions in connection with pigs of a colour other than all white, only Large White boars have been eligible for licensing in this country since 1936. In 1951, coloured, that is, black or black and white pigs, which could only have been smuggled or else have been the progeny of pigs smuggled from the Six Counties, were appearing here, and the Pigs (Unsuitable Types) Order, 1951, was made so as to counter the damage that could be done to our pig stocks by those pigs. Occasional coloured pigs are still being detected and it is necessary to continue the powers provided by the 1951 Order.

As regards the amendments of the Pigs and Bacon Acts, in connection with the Export Price Guarantee Scheme for Grade A bacon, the Bill provides that the Pigs and Bacon Commission may transfer moneys from its General Fund to its Stabilisation Fund. This is necessary as the scheme is being partly financed by a levy on all pigs used for bacon production. At present, receipts from such a levy must be paid into the Commission's General Fund, whereas export subsidy may be paid only out of the Stabilisation Fund. The Bill also requires the commission to pay into the Stabilisation Fund any moneys provided by the Oireachtas towards meeting subsidy on bacon exports.

It further provides that the commission may by Order require bacon curers to export bacon to any country that may be specified in the Order. At present, there is power to require curers to export bacon but only to markets other than Britain and the Six Counties.

At my suggestion, the curers have introduced a voluntary arrangement whereby each curer will export a proportion of his production of Grade A bacon. The curers themselves feel, however, that there should be power to compel any curer who is not prepared to co-operate in this matter to export his due share. They point out that some exports of Grade A bacon by each curer would spread the burden of competing in the export market and would also have the very desirable result of ensuring continuity of supplies to the export market, an essential factor in the development of a successful export trade. Another amendment in connection with the export price guarantee scheme is one enabling the Pigs and Bacon Commission to fix a rate of export subsidy on bacon after the date of export of the bacon. Under the scheme the rate of export subsidy depends on the average prices realised, but as matters stand at present the commission would have to declare the rate of subsidy before the exports took place.

Finally, the Bill makes two minor amendments in connection with pork butchers registered under the Pigs and Bacon Acts. The first of these extends from one month to six months the accounting period in connection with the payment of fees by such butchers, while the second provides for the cancellation of the registration of a pork butcher on the application of the registered person or where the business of pork butcher has not been carried on at the registered premises during the whole of the preceding 12 months. These amendments are designed solely to facilitate administration.

Before concluding, I should like to refer to two important steps taken during the past year in connection with the pigs and bacon industry. These were, firstly, the introduction of a uniform grading system for pigs and, secondly, the introduction of the Export Price Guarantee Scheme for grade A bacon. As a result of the grading system pigs are now being marketed at more suitable weights for bacon production and there has been a steady improvement in the proportion of Grade A pigs reaching the factories. In the period August/December, 1955, the proportion of graded pigs in the weight range 1 cwt. 0 qr. 8 lb. to 1 cwt. 2 qr. 0 lb. which qualified for Grade A was 54 per cent. in the quarter ended 31st March, 1956, the proportion was 58 per cent., while in the quarter ended 30th June, and again in the quarter ended 30th September it was 63 per cent.

Recently there have even been suggestions that some curers have too much Grade A bacon and that in some areas there are shortages of fat bacon. The Export Price Guarantee Scheme for Grade A bacon which was introduced on the expiration of the pigs and bacon agreement of 1951 at the end of April has proved its value recently, when despite reductions in bacon prices on the home and export markets the prices received by producers here were maintained at not less than the fixed minima of 235/- per cwt. for Grade A pigs and 230/- per cwt. for Grade B 1 pigs. As already announced, the Government intend to continue to guarantee a minimum price for Grade A pigs and producers may, therefore, with confidence increase their output of pigs in the certainty that whatever number they produce there is no danger of the price collapsing provided that the pigs are Grade A pigs.

Mr. Cogan

As this Bill appears to provide permanent legislation in substitution for emergency powers regulations, I consider it is desirable in a general way. I think it is necessary to say that every member of this House, I am sure, appreciates the importance of everything possible being done to promote the pig and bacon industry. In the production of pigs, and the resulting bacon, there is scope for expansion on a very considerable scale and expansion of agricultural output is one of the things most essential at the present time. Therefore, anything that can possibly be done to promote increased production in pigs and to increase the manufacture of bacon will, I am sure, have the whole-hearted support of every member of this House.

The pig-raising industry in this country has been a very uneven one. There have been violent fluctuations of prices down through the years and, resulting therefrom, fluctuations of supply. This, I think has been more marked in recent years. If we go back to our childhood days, we will remember that there was a fairly steep production of pigs then, mainly because at that time farmers, farmers' employees and the members of farmers' families were more inclined to work, irrespective of whether or not they were paid for their work. Like other sections of the community, farmers and farm workers are becoming alive to their own interests and rights and they are not prepared to work without remuneration. This state of affairs has been particularly marked over the past two years.

It will be remembered that, a little over two years ago, in 1953, prices went as high as 255/- per cwt. dead-weight in October, November and December of that year. There was a decline after that and, in May, 1954, the price had come back to 239/10d. In June, the price declined to 226/- and, from that until April, 1955, the price remained at a low level. It was only in May of last year that there was a slight recovery, but the price dropped back again to 219/- in July and the price continued low until the present year. There has been some increase during the recent summer months when the price rose to 245/- in June and 245/- in July. Those were the average prices of pigs dead-weight delivered to factories.

That reduction in price over the past two years had its effect on supply. If you look at the picture of supplies of pigs delivered to the factories, you will find that, in October, 1954, 27,000 pigs per week were delivered to the factories. In 1955, the number was down to 19,000 odd and, in 1956, the present year, the number had fallen to 16,000. There you have, over the past two years, a very sweeping decline in the number of pigs delivered to the factories. That decline has kept pace with the decline in price. It is, therefore, clear that farmers are not the innocent or stupid type of people they were represented to be here this evening when another Bill was going through the House. They are intelligent enough to see where their interest lies. If prices and remuneration are not satisfactory, they tend to go out of production. That is why every Senator will welcome any attempt to stabilise prices at a remunerative level and to give to the producer some assurance that if he goes into production and expands it, he will not have to face a reduction in price, as has happened heretofore.

This Bill provides for the fixing of a minimum price for pigs. One of the drawbacks I see in connection with it is that that guarantee may be terminated without sufficient notice. I think the Minister said that the guarantee will remain in operation until March. If we could provide in this legislation that there should be no alteration in price—no reduction at any rate—without at least 12 months' notice to the producer, it would, I think, have a very marked effect on production and it would enable producers to expand production with a reasonable hope of getting out safely.

It costs quite a considerable amount of money to go into pig production. It costs money not only for the purchase of stock, but for the improvement or erection of houses, for the growing or the purchase of foodstuffs. There ought to be provided to the producer a reasonable guarantee of price. The guarantee that is provided under the present Bill is satisfactory enough, except, as I say, for two reasons. The first is that at the present time the price has been fixed rather low, I think. The 235/- per cwt. dead-weight for grade A pigs is not quite adequate. I think the price could be raised. I would not ask for anything very extravagant, but I think the price could be raised to at least 250/- per cwt. In addition to that, there should be a guarantee that prices will remain unchanged, that prices will not at least be reduced over a period of 12 months.

If those two changes were announced by the Minister, they would have a very marked effect on production; and not only that, it would be fair to those engaged in the industry. The people on whom, in the main, we depend for the increased production of pigs are the small farmers who raise pigs with family labour. If the Minister, in the closing stages of this Bill or when concluding the debate here to-day, could announce that at least a certain period of notice, say, 12 months, would be given to the producers before the price would be reduced, that would have a marked effect and would be an act of justice to a section of the community who have been greatly wronged over the years in regard to their reward for labour. The producer of pigs has not, except on rare occasions, been adequately rewarded for his work. It is a rather arduous work, entailing a considerable amount of knowledge, because anyone who tries to go into pig production or to remain in it without a fairly good technical knowledge of what is required in the industry, is going to lose money and lose money heavily—and would lose money even at the guaranteed price I have mentioned.

The Minister indicated that the system of grading pigs is to continue. I have not heard any serious objection from farmers' associations or from any progressive farmers to the idea of pigs being paid for on a graded basis. I think every intelligent person who is engaged in the agricultural industry realises that it is necessary to provide a first class product, not only for export but for our own home consumers. Therefore, I think that the grading of pigs will be readily accepted by our farmers. As far as I know, there is substantial co-operation between the farmers and the bacon factories in regard to this matter. One of the things that always prevented co-operation between farmers and those engaged in the handling of their product was the absence of fair treatment to the farmer. There is no use in expecting the farmer to produce a grade A article, unless there is a specific guarantee that he will be paid for it.

In the past, there was a variation not only in regard to price: there was also a variation from time to time in regard to the weights of pigs that were sought, the type of pigs that were sought and the grades that were sought by buyers. While it is true that this legislation does entail a certain amount of regulation—and, if you like, control in regard to the pig producing industry—I think that, if the price offered is fair, farmers in the main will accept it. Very frequently from 1936, when the principal Act, the Pigs and Bacon Act, was passed, there was considerable propaganda circulating amongst farmers against regulation, against control in the marketing of pigs. Most of that propaganda was propagated by the pig dealers and it was not entirely in the farmers' interests. The producers were told that the Government regulations were killing or had killed the pig industry. Of course, that never was true and I do not think it will be true in regard to the legislation that we are enacting here to-day.

What brought pig production down to a very low level was the war years, when no feeding stuffs could be obtained. The feeding stuff that would otherwise go to pigs, the home-produced feeding stuffs, were required for human consumption. That reduced very drastically the number of pigs, but it was that factor, not any measure of control or regulation, that brought about the decline in numbers. As I say, the numbers increased rapidly up to 1954. A decline set in at that time and has continued for the past few years. It is hoped, as a result of this legislation and as a result of better prices being offered, that the numbers of pigs will increase. The Minister will remember that in 1954 his attention was called to the very low prices prevailing for pigs at that time and he announced to a deputation of farmers that he needed time. "Give me time to get my breath and I will take the wobble out of the price of pigs," he said. Well, the wobble remained quite a long time, or the Minister must have taken a very long and very deep breath, because a very large number of our pigs wobbled completely out of existence. The pig population fell very rapidly during those years. That was a very great national loss. However, it is hoped that it will be repaired and I think that every member of this House will be anxious to co-operate in repairing it.

There is provision in this Bill for the payment of a subsidy on the export of bacon. There was a time when the Minister and others used to denounce the Government that was in power some years ago for subsidising exports, for paying John Bull, they said, to eat our better or to eat our bacon; but anyone who is intelligent and who gives consideration to this matter will realise that if you want to maintain stability of price, you must have some system of export subsidy.

I would like the Minister, when replying, to give a little more detail in regard to the financing of this system. What is the levy per head on all pigs purchased; what is the total amount raised by means of that levy; and how much will it be necessary to pay out in subsidies on exported bacon? I do not think anyone on this side of the House will accuse the Minister of subsidising or paying John Bull to eat our bacon. We on this side of the House are inclined to take a fair and reasonable view of matters of this kind and anything that can be done to expand or increase output in this important industry will be readily supported.

As I say, it is a pity that attempts were made to mislead the farmer in regard to the necessity, or desirability, of a certain measure of regulation in regard to the marketing of pigs. I heard a Deputy expressing a desire to get back to the good old days when there was no fixed price for pigs, no regulations, no control whatever, and when the pig jobbers reigned supreme and lorded it over the unhappy farmer. I have a distinct recollection of those days when pig jobbers, with their close union and complete co-operation amongst themselves, fixed the price for pigs. They ruled that the pigs be examined in a town at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning and I remember at that time when the Waterford jobbers ordered that the pigs be laid in the streets, so that the jobbers could handle them more readily. You can imagine the difficulty the farmers had at that time. The Leader of the Fianna Fáil Government in 1936 was wise to introduce regulations governing this industry; otherwise, it could not have continued.

In addition to regulating, marketing and manufacturing here, something should be done to ensure a better system of marketing abroad. It is necessary and desirable that, since a regulation has been imposed to compel the bacon curers to export a certain quantity of their grade A bacon, that closer co-operation should be arranged between these curers to secure that their bacon would be put on the British market and sold under the best possible conditions. It is true that Irish bacon in Great Britain fetches 28/- a cwt. less than the best Danish bacon, and that is a condition of affairs which should not continue. We are capable of producing as good an article as the Danes. The difficulty is that we have not a sufficient quantity of it on the market and we have not a proper marketing system to get it across to the British people and sell it under the best possible conditions.

I do not want to quarrel with the Minister in regard to the introduction of the Landrace pig. That is a matter which should be weighed and carefully considered by the Minister and representatives of the farmers' associations and the Agricultural Production Council, or any other body of farmers with which he is in contact. One suggestion I should like to make is that if the Minister feels there is a danger of disease following on the introduction of this breed, he would consider the possibility of having a certain number of these pigs bred and kept on one of the Department's farms, completely isolated from the rest of the country, so that the incidence of disease, its effects, and the possibilities of its being spread could be carefully studied. That would meet the wishes of every reasonable person. Nobody wants to press the Minister to do something which might possibly be of harm to the whole industry and which it might not be possible to rectify afterwards. In dealing with hereditary or infectious diseases, one has to be extremely careful.

There is not any very widespread opposition to the regulations which prohibit coloured pigs. It is true that some of those breeds were exceptionally unpopular for a time at least. There is no doubt they were very productive and were very efficient converters of food into pork, but, at the same time, they did not produce the quality bacon, and quality bacon is the objective we have got to reach. I do not think the Minister, however, should be unduly severe in dealing with an occasional outbreak of colour amongst pigs, because, if there is anything in progeny, those outbreaks or throw-backs to the black colour will occur for many generations, in spite of anything the breeders can do.

If we are to put this pig producing industry on a permanent and secure basis, we must be very active in considering the whole question of feeding stuffs. It is true, and I think it will be accepted as true, that Irish grown barley is second to none as a feeding stuff for pigs. It is far superior to imported maize and produces a better type of bacon. Growers of barley should be encouraged not only to increase their acreage but to provide for the storage and utilisation of their grain. It is not possible for all growers of barley to use all their produce on their own farms in the feeding of their own pigs. There must be a certain number, particularly of large farmers, who will have a surplus of barley and they should be guaranteed a fair price and security of market.

On the other hand, it is not possible to expect that people who go into pig breeding on a substantial scale relative to the size of their farms, particularly small farmers, can produce sufficient barley on their own farms to feed the number of pigs which it is desirable they should feed. Therefore, they must purchase the surplus grain of the larger farmers. For that reason, it is essential that storage accommodation should be provided so that if farmers expand the area under barley they will not find any of it left on their hands or any difficulty in disposing of it after the harvest. There are some people with old-fashioned ideas who suggest that tillage farmers should take the retrograde step of going back to the old reaper and binder and should scrap the combine harvester. I do not think any reasonable person will agree to that. In a climate such as ours, the combine harvester is the logical method of reaping either barley or wheat. For that reason, any farmer who reaps his crop by that method should be assured that he will have the necessary storage and drying facilities available, as has been done in regard to wheat.

An Cathaoirleach

I have no intention of permitting a wide discussion in regard to tillage methods on a Pigs and Bacon Bill. So long as the Senator relates his remarks on the growing of barley to the Bill itself, he is in order, but if he wanders outside that——

Mr. Cogan

I have no intention. The Bill is intended to expand the pig-producing industry. I am certainly offering to the Minister, in so far as I can do so, my co-operative support. Instead of telling the pig producers to grow all their own barley, I would say: Grow all the barley you can. Feed as much as you can to the pigs and sell the surplus. If you are engaged extensively in the pig-producing industry, feed as many pigs as possible with your own barley as far as possible, and what you require in addition to that purchase from your neighbours in any part of Ireland.

There is in this regard also the question of protein and food, and that is an important thing. If farmers have not a sufficient supply of separated milk on their own farms, they should have ready access to whatever supplies of other proteins, such as wheat and bone meal, are available. I think the sound policy would be to encourage every farmer to be a maker and mixer of his own compound food.

A very intelligent and progressive farmer visited Denmark recently. I asked him if the Danish farmer had any advantage over us in any way. He said that at least in one way they had, in that most Danish farmers were exceptionally well informed in regard to the mixing of compound foods. In general, they were better informed than our farmers. That is a matter that should be attended to, if we are to make the pig producing industry a success.

As the Bill is, in the main, a continuation of existing legislation, there is not a great deal to be said on it. What is needed is active co-operation between the Department and the farmers in making the Bill a success. I strongly press the Minister to give the guarantee I asked for, namely, that the price of pigs be not reduced without giving at least 12 months' notice. Our farmers, more than the farmers in some other countries, perhaps, are inclined to change their system of farming from year to year, according as prices and the margin of profits change. That may be a good thing or a bad thing, but it is a characteristic of our people.

A short time ago, I was speaking to a farmer with whom I had also been speaking about 12 months ago. I knew him to be a very extensive pig producer. I asked him if he was still largely engaged in the pig business. He said: "No; I have got out of pigs altogether. There is no money in them. I am keeping bank clerks instead." He was living near a large town where there was a number of bank clerks. I met him a short time ago and asked how he was getting on with the bank clerks. He said: "I got out of the bank clerks. There is no money in them and I have gone back to pigs." I hope that will not be typical of a good number of our farmers' actions at the present time. It is undesirable that we should have this changing from pigs to bank clerks and back again from bank clerks to pigs, and changing from one branch of production to another.

Mr. Burke

We should always welcome permanent legislation which does away with Emergency Powers Orders. I have many reasons to be interested in a Pigs and Bacon Bill. This is not a very comprehensive measure, but it is designed for the purpose of meeting present-day conditions in industry. Senator Cogan devoted most of his remarks to the question of feeding pigs. I think the farmers have been more misled by information with regard to the feeding of pigs than by anything else.

I want to supply a few figures. One of the most important things we could get in this country is a pig that can convert food economically into bacon. It has been said that under best conditions you can convert 3 lb. of pig feed into 1 lb. of pork, but I think that under average conditions we ought to be able, without any great difficulty, to have all our pigs convert 4 lb. of food into 1 lb. of live weight pork.

To-day the farmer gets a guaranteed price of 20/- a cwt. for his barley and four cwt. of barley should be sufficient to produce 1 cwt. of pork. The 4 cwt. of barley would cost £4 and the present live weight price of pork is 170/-. That would give a considerable profit to any producer who would have any kind of reasonable pigs. Recently, a large pig feeder who is also a meal miller in a small way told me that he did not know why farmers are so daft as to continually sell their barley to people like himself. I believe that any farmer would have dried barley meal to-day on his farm at about 25/- per cwt. but what the great majority of the farmers do, before even the combine has cut the rest of the barley and the lorries have taken it away, is to get to the banks as quickly as they can to lodge the cheques.

What happens? Later during the year, they are buying back that same barley from the merchants at about 32/- or 33/- per cwt. The difference between 25/- and 32/- a cwt. would mean that on the 4 lb. conversion ratio the farmer loses a profit of 28/- per pig by that transaction. Even if their bank books would not look so well at Christmas, I suggest that they would be paid well on a profit of 28/- a cwt.

That information was given to me recently by a man who feeds a considerable number of pigs, but who also buys barley from the farmers. He said that he could never understand why the farmer does that. He says that the profit he can get, more than the farmer, by the fact that he can get an extra 28/- per pig profit, is enormous, particularly if he is a man who feeds perhaps 1,000 pigs in a year. The figures which I have given with regard to conversion are international figures. In Denmark it has been shown that under the best conditions—these are almost laboratory conditions—you can produce on live weight, 1 lb. of pork from 3 lb. of pig feed. I do not expect, under the general up and down conditions of the country, that we ought to expect much less than four.

I should like to suggest to the Minister that perhaps at some time he would consider providing more facilities to encourage the farmer to keep his feeding stuff in a proper way on his own farm. I did notice in the other House that one of the things which the Minister said was worrying him was the cost of transporting barley to Sligo, Donegal and other places. There is a lot of waste of money in carting barley from the farm to the mill. If the barley was kept at home and the farmers had it ground themselves, it would mean £1 to 30/- a barrel.

I was very interested in the improved grading of Irish pigs from a little over 50 per cent. to something over 60 per cent. at present. It means that we have gone, in round figures, from about half Grade A to two-thirds Grade A pigs. In my experience, the principal fault in the Irish Large White pig is that the shoulder is too heavy. If the farmer would breed off the pig with the light shoulder, it would improve the position enormously. The reason is—and I want to say this particularly for the farmers, and I have made a survey of the market conditions in England—that when a retail merchant in England buys two sides of Irish bacon and cuts them up, he finds that he has about 1 lb. weight more shoulder on the Irish pig than on the Danish pig. The shoulder may sell at 2/- and ham at about 4/- and he finds that he has about 1 lb. more of the cut that sells at 2/- and the counterhand is not able to balance his books.

There has been a lot of talk about the Landrace pig. I have been in most of the progeny testing stations in Denmark with Dr. Halmer Clausen and there is very little difference in the figures between the Landrace and the Large White. We are often inclined to hope, and the newspapers are responsible for a lot of it, that we can get some sort of panacea which will solve all our problems and that if we can get the Landrace all our problems are solved; but there are difficulties with the Landrace. It is inclined to throw skinny pigs and if there is any form of bad pig, it is a pig which does not fatten up. The Landrace throws more "culls" than the Large White. Another thing, and I have asked several people in Smithfield about it, is the capacity of the Irish Large White to produce the best quality pork. Five or six years ago, the Minister made an agreement with the British Government to take pork, and a good deal of money was made by the people interested in the export of pork. I believe that the pork from the Irish Large White is much superior to that coming from any other pig and it was another reason why Irish pork got the great reputation which it got at Smithfield. I think that Irish pork in England to-day has a higher reputation than even English pork.

There has been also the question of marketing. Marketing is most important, but we must remember that our principal competitors, the Danish, have been on the British market continuously with bacon for nearly a century, with perhaps some little disruption in the war period. They have always stayed on that market, and have studied it, and they have such a strength on the market to-day that in some measure they are nearly able to dictate the price which will be given for Danish bacon. I think we have one advantage over the Danish bacon, and it is in the matter of flavour. There is a flavour on Irish butter, Irish eggs, and Irish bacon, as well as Irish beef, and any American will say that an Irish steak has a particularly good flavour. The same thing applies to all our produce.

We ought to advertise that and lay stress on it. I should like to see some advertising done in Britain in centres where there are large Irish populations. We might advertise in the local papers or there might be scientific advertising done by advertising agents who know their jobs and would do it properly. We have got to get back into a market in which we have not been for years. We have the pig and the only thing I see wrong with it is that the shoulders of the Irish Large White are too heavy. If the farmers decided, for the next year or two, that they will not breed off pigs with heavy shoulders, the necessary improvement could take place as quickly as the farmers were able to make the improvement in the Grade A pigs. In 12 months, you would see the same improvement with regard to this matter.

In conclusion I want to refer to another thing. That is the Minister has initiated consultations between the various groups who are responsible for this industry. He has encouraged the farmers and the producers of pigs to meet the curers and to discuss the problems that arise to the benefit of both of them. That has been, and will be of enormous benefit to the bacon trade. The Grade A scheme will put a bottom under the trade and will give the necessary encouragement and the long-term assurance to pig producers that, even if bad market conditions should intervene, they will get good margins of profit during the periods that are bad. In a short measure of this kind, it would be wrong for me to go into any more detail except to say that I believe the Minister's approach to the whole question of pig production here is very sound. I was very glad to see that all this clamour that went on about Landrace pigs did not find him prepared to make any concession, because the pig we have here, if there is a little done about it, is as good as any in the whole world and probably more suited to Irish conditions and our climatic environment.

Mr. O'Reilly

This Bill, which proposes to replace emergency powers regulations in this matter, is to be welcomed. Apparently when any Bill of this sort replaces emergency powers, it is welcomed here, but nobody seems to advert to the fact that in the long run emergency powers regulations covering them did a good job of work. We are overfond of discrediting them. That happens in the Dáil on all sides of the House, and here also. We all seem to forget that they were necessary at the time and did a good job of work.

The main feature of this Bill, so far as it continues the idea of price stabilisation, is to be welcomed, but, of course, while price fixation and a fixed guaranteed minimum price is a good thing, the quantity of bacon produced will always be regulated, having regard to whether the price fixed is an economic one or not. If it is not an economic price, the quantity of bacon produced will reduce. That happens with many agricultural products. We all know that when eggs, which had been dear, got very cheap and fell as low as 2/-, the women of the country started to sell the hens, and that automatically created a scarcity and they got dear again in the winter time. To an extent, that seems to be the policy also in regard to pigs and the production of bacon.

If there was a guaranteed minimum price which was an economic one, so long as the production of the pig was efficient, the farmers who were efficiently in production would remain in production and would produce more; but the quantity of production will always be regulated by many other factors, some of which were referred to by Senator Burke and Senator Cogan—the question of barley or feeding stuffs, the price of feeding stuffs, and their effects on the economics of the production of pigs. If we had a fixed price for foodstuffs, then the farmer would be in a position to compare and to realise, having regard to the information he then had, whether it would be economic for him to go into increased production.

Mr. Dillon

But he has a fixed price.

Mr. O'Reilly

Only to an extent.

Mr. Dillon

For barley.

Mr. O'Reilly

The prices of imported feeding stuffs and home grown feeding stuffs do vary.

Mr. Dillon

Barley is fixed.

Mr. O'Reilly

I will deal with that later on. I am sure the Minister is quite sincere when he advises the farmers to produce more by feeding barley and skimmed milk——

Mr. Dillon

And potatoes.

Mr. O'Reilly

Provided that the price is economic in the opinion of the farmer, production will rise, and if it is not, in his opinion, he will reduce production and then you will have a reduction in the production of pigs at certain times. If the Minister is really anxious to have a substantial increase in production, he should set his minimum price at a higher level than 235/- per cwt. for Grade A bacon. My colleague Senator Cogan has suggested 250/-, but that is a matter that could be argued for a long time. I do not think that this is the appropriate place where the actual price should be argued out, but I do agree with Senator Cogan that if the Minister really wants a substantial increase in bacon production, his real key is to set a higher minimum price for Grade A bacon and then the quantity will increase, providing feeding stuffs do not make it uneconomic.

The quality, of course, is quite a different matter. I was surprised to hear the Minister talking about a number, possibly a few, black and white pigs being found in the country. I do not know how they got into the country, and I am sure that the Minister does not know. The vast majority of farmers do realise that they are not suitable for our present trade, because, after all, it is the housewife who is buying the rather who really decides the type of pig, and it is she and not the Minister for Agriculture or the farmer, who makes the decision. The Minister will agree with me that it is the customer going to buy the finished article who really decides what is required.

I do not know, however, and I cannot understand, why it is necessary to make a regulation to ensure that black and white pigs do not come into the country. I cannot understand people bringing them into the country. I was surprised to hear the Minister say that there is such a risk, and that people are doing it, unless they want to have them for a show piece, perhaps. I will, however, accept it if the Minister says that a regulation is necessary.

In regard to quality, the Minister did give us figures here showing that Grade A pigs over a period of some time have risen from 54 per cent. to 63 per cent. I wonder does the Minister regard that as a satisfactory figure, having regard to the amount of work and money spent on the improvement of pig breeding in this country. If it is going to take as long to produce the right type of pig as the dual purpose cow—the policy of the dual purpose cow has been in operation for a very long time——

An Cathaoirleach

It is not being dealt with under this Bill.

Mr. O'Reilly

I am trying to draw a parallel between the length taken to produce the ideal dual purpose cow and the ideal type of pig. If it is going to take that long——

Mr. Dillon

The pig is a mono-purpose pig. We have no intention of milking the pig.

Mr. O'Reilly

It is a one-purpose pig, yes. The dual purpose cow was regarded as the ideal cow, and if it takes as long to produce the ideal pig as it did to produce the dual purpose cow, I do not think the game will be worth the candle. Is a very serious attempt being made to ensure that only the right type of boar is produced? Those are the factors that regulate the quality of our pigs. Are the people engaged in production and the breeding of the right type of boar being paid properly for the work they must do? Is the price paid by the Department of Agriculture controlling the scheme sufficient to ensure that the right type of boar is being bred in this country?

I have heard complaints from some people engaged in that branch of agriculture that, having regard to all the difficulties, it is not sufficient to pay them and make it a worthwhile policy. Furthermore, you will have complaints even that the Department do not pay the people who produce boars for breeding purposes as soon as they might. Maybe, at times, such complaints are well-founded. If we could ensure that, by progeny testing, only the right type of boar would be bred in this country, we might, in a shorter time than it took us to produce the dual-purpose cow, develop an ideal type of pig that would, in from 150 to 160 days, if reasonably and properly fed, weigh up to 12 stones dead-weight. That would be the ideal position.

Mr. Dillon

They are coming from America to buy them now.

Mr. O'Reilly

One swallow does not make a summer. I know that a Mr. Nicholls brought pigs in an aeroplane and that the freight charge was higher than the price he paid for them. However, that does not prove anything.

An Cathaoirleach

That does not arise now.

Mr. Crosbie

You are breeding a few bores over there.

Mr. O'Reilly

Progeny testing would produce a type of pig here in from 150 to 160 days that would weigh 12 stones dead-weight; I am referring to Grade A bacon. My opinion is that, because of the slowness in developing that scheme, it will take quite a long time to produce that type of Grade A pig generally in the country.

Mention has been made of the Landrace pig. Senator Burke talked of food conversion in terms of pounds of bacon. I am sure he knows a lot about the marketing aspect of the business since he is interested in it from the business point of view, but not from the farmers' end. I think his remarks on food conyersion in terms of pounds of bacon could be harmful to the Minister for Agriculture. He forgot that a pig is not fed on raw barley but on barley meal.

Mr. Burke

I mentioned barley meal at 25/- per cwt. I spoke of four lb. conversion, live-weight. I think that figures can be produced in this country to show that I erred on the side of generosity towards the pig producer.

Mr. O'Reilly

I should be very sorry to misquote Senator Burke, but I understood him to quote the price of barley at £4 for four cwt. and then to relate the figure of four lb. of food to one lb. of bacon. That is what I gathered. I do not think I am wrong, but, if I am wrong in suggesting that Senator Burke said that, I am very sorry. If he wishes, the Minister may have a more accurate note of what Senator Burke said and can refer to it.

Senator Burke also talked about marketing conditions. He referred to the fact that the large Irish White had one lb. extra of the heavier shoulder cut, for which a trader will not get as good a price. I do not know whether or not Senator Burke is an advocate of the Landrace pig. I am not. However, I say that that was the best argument that any man could make either here or anywhere else for the Landrace pig because the characteristic of the Landrace is that he is longer. Somebody told me that he has more ribs. I am not sure of that. I am not an authority of the anatomy of any particular breed. However, I was told that that was the reason why the Landrace had a longer side and was more economic and yielded a high quality bacon. I suggest that Senator Burke made the best case that was ever made in favour of the Landrace pig, but I am not prepared to accept his figures, if I understood them correctly. He had no regard to the fact that food other than barley has to be fed to a pig, if you want to produce a quality article. If you have not creamery milk, you will have to supplement the food with bone-meal, and so on.

As the Minister is trying to increase the quality and quantity of the bacon of this country, I will support him as far as I can. However, the real way to increase production is to ensure that the minimum price is such that the farmer will be sure it is an economic proposition.

Mr. L'Estrange

I welcome this Bill because, for the first time in our history, it gives stability to the farmers and to all those engaged in pig production. It should put an end to the violent fluctuations which we have had in the pig industry over the past 20 years. Those of us who are farmers are avare that, when we had a glut of pigs, the price immediately dropped and that, when pigs became scarce, the price soared sky-high. Under this Bill, what is considered to be a fair price will be given. Farmers will not make a fortune out of pigs, but they will get a fair price. They should increase production immediately, because now they know that, no matter how many pigs they produce, they will get a minimum price of 235/- for Grade A pigs.

Senator Cogan referred to the drop in pig production in this country during 1954 and 1955: I suppose he was trying to imply that it happened since we were returned to office. We admit there has been a slight drop in pig production but it is very slight in comparison with the drop that took place between 1931 and 1947. In 1932, there were 1,227,003 pigs in this country. In 1948—and remember that the war was over for three years so that there is no use in saying that there was a war on—when this inter-Party Government took office, there were only 45,065 pigs in this country, only one-third of the pigs we had in 1932. Before we went out of office, the inter-Party Government increased the number of pig to almost 800,000. They almost double the number and I do not think that that was doing too badly. Our record is more favourable as regards pi production in this country than the record of the Party which Senator Cogan now supports.

I wonder if the Minister is altogether right in banning the Landrace pig. There are many people who claim that our Department of Agriculture is a bit too conservative and lacking in initiative. I have been given some figures in relation to a firm in the North who have at present between 6,000 and 7,000 pigs. At present they are crossing the large York with the Landrace boar and they seem with the first cross to be getting very good results, and I think they are getting over 80 per cent. of Grade A pigs. I think that is much better than ours. With the knowledge and experience they have of pig production, they believe this to be the right thing. We, too, have been learning a good deal from those people in the North. It is admitted by everyone that they have vast experience in this regard.

It is agreed by all that agriculture is our main industry. As the Minister has often pointed out here, the standard of living of every man, woman and child in this country, whether working in a factory or elsewhere, depends on what the farmers of Ireland are able to get from the land of Ireland and export profitably abroad. We must have the raw materials to keep the wheels of industry turning and give employment to our own people. Last year, we had a balance of trade deficit of £95,000,000, and taking everything else into consideration, I think we had a financial deficit at the end of the year of £35,000,000.

It is agreed by everyone with any knowledge of the pig industry here that we could produce 1,000,000 extra pigs in this country. If we do it—we have enough for home consumption at the present time—those 1,000,000 extra pigs can be sent abroad. Taking them at an average of £16 or £17 per pig, it would mean that we would gain anything between £16,000,000 and £17,000,000 extra coming into this country each year. That would go a very long way to balance our trade figures and would help to end the economic problems facing this country at the present time.

I think we all agree that pigs are the one thing that can be produced quickly and very quickly. Any farmer will admit that we could double the production of pigs in anything from 15 to 18 months. The humble pig could yet be the salvation of this little nation of ours. We should all appeal to the farmers and to farmers' organisations like Muintir na Tíre, the National Farmers' Association and to our committees of agriculture, to interest the farmers and to appeal to them to increase their production, to go in for growing more barley, to produce more of our feeding stuff here at home in Ireland, to grow it in Ireland. We could grow it on the land of Ireland. We should try to get them to produce at least 1,000,000 extra pigs. If we do that and were able to do that, it would get us over the majority of the difficulties that confront us at the present time. The farmers saved this country before, during the last war, and I think they could save it again now, if they did that.

Mr. Dillon

I am grateful to the Seanad for the spirit in which they have received this Bill. I am grateful to the Seanad for acknowledging so generously the validity of the attempt made by this Government to remove instability from pig prices. I welcome the recognition by the Seanad that this is an effort made after many long years of waiting. I think the Seanad is justified in taking this optimistic view.

Of course, we would all like to guarantee a higher price for pigs, but I would remind the Seanad that the price guaranteed to-day is a minimum price. If there is a better price to be got for the bacon derived from Irish pigs anywhere in the world, we will get it. The purpose of this guarantee is not to pin the price of pigs to 235/- for Grade A: it is to assure the farmers of this country, on the authority of the Government, that, in no circumstances, whatever quantity of Grade A pig is produced, can the price go below 235/-. It may go above it: at the present time the price is about 245/-. I think Senators will agree with me that, from the point of view of a Minister for Agriculture, his prime concern is to see that the producer gets the best possible price he can for his product. I think Senators are correct in saying that heretofore no Minister for Agriculture has felt himself free to say that, without regard to the volume produced, the price never can go below a certain guaranteed limit.

It has been suggested that there should be a guarantee for 12 months ahead. Even if I were in a position to do that, I do not know that it would be expedient to do it. I do not think it would be a bad thing if we were able to give the guarantee for six months; it might be preferable if we were able to do it for nine; but there is no use putting the whole long-term programme in jeopardy by giving undertakings of a character that you may not be able to fulfil. I think I can say with full confidence, as of to-day, that the minimum price prescribed will not be allowed to decline in any period without at least six months' notice being given to pig producers. If circumstances permit, I would like to make that period even longer. I think it is safe for pig producers to presume, as of to-day, that there will be no decline in the minimum fixed price without at least six months' notice.

Senators have referred to the very close and vital connection between the minimum prices guaranteed and the prices at which feeding stuffs can be purchased. I sometimes think that in regard to pig feeding it would be a blessing if bagged stuff—that is, pig feeding purchased in bags from millers —got so dear that the farmers of this country would be forced to grow their own feeding. The truth of it is that, in the past in this country, the producer of the pigs has handed the bulk of his profit away, to the transport company, to the sack manufacturer, to the miller and to the retail merchant. Now, this is a free country and if people want to go on doing that, it is no part of my duty or my right to interfere with them.

I want to say, as I have said in public repeatedly before, that I deplore the practice of farmers in this country growing the best kind of pig feeding that can be bought for money anywhere in the world, reaping that crop, threshing it and then selling it for £1 a cwt. Whereupon some transport authority carries it to a mill—it may be a licensed carrier, it may be C.I.E. or it may be the miller's lorry, but somebody pays for the petrol and the lorry, the driver and the helpers time. It has to be unloaded and carried into the mill. Mind you, sometimes, a Chathaoirleach, it is not carried into the mill, it is carried to the grain wholesaler's premises and is taken in there. Then it is held there and there is storage charged on it every week that it lies there. Then it is sold to the miller and then the miller gets to work on it and grinds it and puts it in a jute bag which he had to buy. Then it is put in his store and then it is unhoused at 2/6 a ton— that is for the process of carrying it out of the mill. It is then loaded in the carrier's truck, brought back to the town where the farmer who grew it lives and sold to a retailer. Then the retailer unloads it and brings it in and he must pay a man for doing that. He must also pay the man who sells it and, finally, the farmer who sold it in the first case for 20/- buys it back at 31/- or 32/- and then proceeds to feed it to his own pigs. When he sells a pig for £17 or £18 he must have lost £1 of his profit.

Mr. Cogan

Does the Minister not know that brley reduces in the mill?

Mr. Dillon

The relevance of that interjection does not strike me at the moment. I am describing the burden of charges which fall on the barley when it leaves the growers' hands, passes through various processes and then returns to them. The alternative is for the armer to keep his own barley and, either get an electric mill, if he has rural electrification and mill it himself or bring it to a neighbour's mill and get it milled. I think Senator Burke is conservative in his estimate. The difference as between the farmer who mills his own barley and feeds it to is own pig and the farmer who sells his barley and then buys it back cannot be less than £1 a pig. It sometimes makes me despair to see intelligent farmers working hard and then distributing for the benefit of all and sundry this £1 per pig which they ought to have for themselves.

It may be hard work, but it is time we said in this country that there is no soft living to be got in Ireland, particularly on the land of Ireland; and anyone who is not prepared to work hard on the land of Ireland, the sooner he gets off the land, the better it will be for himself and everybody else. We might as well face it, there is no soft money to be got on the land of Ireland.

Mr. O'Reilly

Conacre.

Mr. Dillon

I have no brief for landlords. I never had.

Professor Hayes

It would be a queer thing if you had.

Mr. Dillon

For those who work hard on the land of Ireland there is a good living in return for hard work, and anyone who is privileged to own part of the land of Ireland has a very solemn duty to work hard, for, if he does not, he betrays not only himself but his country as well. That is a very vital fact to face at the moment and if the people with land are not prepared to work hard and get the maximum return from it we are all "bunched" in this country. A Senator rightly said that there is probably no source through which we can more rapidly expand profitably the output of the land of Ireland than through pigs, and if I could bring home to the farmers this dazzling fact that, through the medium of pigs, we could increase the output of agriculture in this country without importing one pennyworth of the raw material requisite to achieve our objective. It is doubtful if one can say the same of any other branch of agriculture. In barley, potatoes and skimmed milk, we have a complete diet and if there is no skimmed milk available, we have an abundance to-day of the necessary proteins in the shape of meat and bone-meal.

This is a matter of such vital importance to us in considering a Bill of this kind that I ask your indulgence, Sir, to remind Senators of the fundamental change which has taken place in this whole business since 1939, because one of the disastrous characteristics of our mentality is that we get fixed ideas in this country and to change them requires something approximating a revolution. Pre-1939, we lived in a world of intense competition and with the knowledge that there was available to our competitors in the pig and bacon industry a raw material of the highest quality, but of matchlessly low price, in the form of maize. The reason for that was that there was not then known a variety of barley in the world which would give a yield per statute acre which made it possible to compete with maize through barley. Post war, there emerged the new Scandinavian varieties, commonly known as Ymer, Herta, and Frejia and now we have one of our own, Eorna, and their capacity to produce under average Irish conditions yields of from 35 to 55 cwt. of grain per statute acre makes them to-day a cheaper and a better feed than maize ever was.

It is that development which has opened up this vast potential to our people, if they but avail of it. We have removed the old hazard of a collapse in prices. Every farmer has to his hand a means of getting the entire profit for his work, leaving nothing for the middleman, the transport worker or any other who would wish to have their percentage off, and we have the certainty that there is at our hand a market in which we can dispose of more pigs than there is any likelihood of our ever producing in this country. If we could communicate to our farmers the dazzling potentialities of that situation, I foresee a great prospect for the economy of this country through the medium of this one item, complex as it is, of increased production.

I do not think we should depart finally from the Second Stage of this Bill without referring to an aspect of this matter that Senator Burke dealt with and which goes to the very heart of the matter, that is, the quality of our pigs and the conversion rate which it is possible to obtain with the strains of pigs available to us. We have begun progeny testing of pigs in this country and we have now got the complete returns of the third progeny test—subject to all the limitations which I have mentioned in Ballyhaise, and conditions that are not of a character which justify claims for scientific perfection for the progeny testing we have done there. The new progeny testing station in the Munster Institute will, I hope, be completed in March and we can proceed with progeny testing on the same basis as is maintained in Denmark, Holland and the United States.

We have in the interim conducted three progeny tests in Ballyhaise under tentative conditions and these have provisionally estimated that we have achieved a conversion rate—the House will remember that Senator Burke spoke of a rate of four to one— which fluctuates between 33 lb. of meal to 1 lb. of meat gained.

Mr. O'Reilly

Three point three!

Mr. Dillon

I am gratified to learn of the Senator's astonishment, but I am bound to add that at the other end of the test we have had pigs whose conversion rate was four. The average was 3.5 lb. of meal per lb. of meat gained. That is no mean achievement and amply confirms Senator Burke's belief that, under average good methods of husbandry, it should be possible for any farmer in Ireland to attain to a conversion rate of four to one. I believe we are well on our way to attaining to an average in the country of 3.6 and, as Senator Burke pointed out, that means a handsome profit, on the basis of barley at its present valuation.

I think one Senator asked me what was the levy per pig under the scheme of guarantee. It is 2/- per pig purchased for conversion into bacon or on pigs delivered at bacon factories. It is impossible to say under this system the rate of bounty because that is regulated by the price realised on the English market. That is an average. It is on that basis that the rate of bounty is estimated.

I do not think there was any other matter raised with which I failed to deal, except perhaps the Landrace pig. I dealt with that in another place. The problem is perfectly simple. I often wonder do people believe that I exclude the Landrace pig for fun. No Minister wants to enforce a regulation to the annoyance of any citizen of the State. The fact that he has to do it would suggest there is some reason why he should do it. My information is that the Grade A average of the Landrace pig, as delivered to Danish factories, fluctuates between 50 per cent. and, I think, about 76 per cent. That is the Danish Landrace. We have access not to the Danish Landrace, for they will not permit its export, but to the Swedish Landrace. Generally, my view is to allow a farmer to have access to any type of live stock he thinks best. I am not forgetting that I seek power to maintain our present policy of excluding coloured pigs. I do not know whether the House wants me to go into details, but pigs are broadly divided into forest pigs and non-forest pigs. Coloured pigs are derived from types of pigs that originally lived in woodlands and white pigs are derived from pigs who lived elsewhere.

We have always excluded the coloured pigs and we have avoided the miscellaneous cross which has worked so much to the great detriment of the pig industry in Britain. Here is the whole problem. I, first of all, consult my live-stock advisers in respect of any live-stock problem. Then I consult my veterinary advisers. My veterinary advisers are unanimous in recommending that we should not admit the Landrace pig because it is a carrier of acute atrophic rhinitis.

Ordinarily, I would rest on that advice and act upon it, but so ardent did the argument become and so vociferous were those who held the view opposite to mine that I resolved in this case I should look further afield, and I consulted eminent veterinary authorities from two Governments whose circumstances were closely analogous to ours. In both cases, I was most emphatically advised in no circumstances to admit the Landrace pig, that the disadvantage of the introduction of this disease far outweighed any possible advantage that might be derived from this breed. You pay your money and you take your choice but I have got to ask Senators, any one of whom may be Minister for Agriculture in the morning, what would they do?

Would they take the risk of bringing in that disease? Remember that it is very easy to bring it in and very difficult to get it out. With regard to atrophic rhinitis, you can bring in pigs which show no clinical sign of the disease and it is certain that their progeny can show it and transmit it, but it is not at all certain that they cannot beget progeny which show no clinical signs but which themselves bred may in the second generation show the disease. That that is possible is not proven but that that is impossible is not proven either. It is suspected that it has happened.

Lastly, there is this point to be borne in mind. When you hear vigorous and energetic propaganda in favour of the introduction of a new breed, never forget the uniform history that attends the introduction of a new breed. Those concerned, for instance, with its introduction publicise and inflate the claims for the excellence of that new breed. They bring in six sows and a boar. They hope to have 60 pigs, perhaps they only have 50, from the first mate. Now they confidently expect to get £500 or £600 apiece for these sows and boars and go on getting it until they become relatively common. Then, of course, the bottom falls out of the market, but by that time they have made their kitty.

We must remember that two or three years ago there used to be reports in English papers of Landrace pigs fetching big prices in England and fantastic prices being paid for Landrace boars. All that is over now, but those who got in on the ground floor made great fortunes. When you read passionate declarations that there is nothing to compare with the Landrace breed, ask yourself this question—"Do these vociferous proposers contemplate breeding the Landrace? Have they perhaps made arrangements, if the restrictions are removed, to turn up the following morning with the brilliant herd, the splendid herd? I can see the names, nearly, of Landrace pigs which are to be sold at fancy prices to those of our people who are persuaded that they are of incomparable value and when the fortune is made others can keep the Landrace pig and you and I can struggle with the problem of atrophic rhinitis. If you were Minister for Agriculture would you say—"Here is a breed of pigs capable by selection and testing of improvement from an average of 54 per cent. grade A to an average of 63 per cent. grade A." If we can do that inside one year, is it not better to go on with this disease free breed that we have and go on improving it, than to take the risks that have been put forward?

I have examined, and will examine, the possibility of bringing Landrace pigs in under veterinary supervision, but I will not bring them in, as long as I am Minister for Agriculture, if it involves the slightest risk of importing acute atrophic rhinitis into this country. I have seen some bacon from Landrace pigs marketed in Great Britain as grade A and I do not think that I would be wrong in saying that if it were offered in this country, it would be grade C or grade X. Distant hills look green. Samuel Johnson said of us that we were the most honest people in the world for we never spoke well of ourselves. It is a queer characteristic.

If the Danes have a pig, it is a dream of a pig; if the Dutch have a cow, it is a miracle of a cow; but the dual purpose Shorthorn—who would be bothered with that? The Irish Large White pig, who would be bothered with that, until somebody flies in from America to bring some of them out to America and then I am told he is only one swallow and he does not make a summer. Well, he is not indicative of mid-winter either. That is what I am driving at.

I invite Senators to help me by their good counsel to increase the numbers of pigs delivered to the factories by at least one million, confident that when we have achieved that, our second target will be two million. I invite Senators who are asked by any of their friends in the country: "What then shall we do?" to tell them to send me a postcard asking for the new leaflet on raising pigs. Tell them that they need not put a stamp on the postcard and tell them I will send the leaflet for nothing. It contains all they require to know about rearing pigs and feeding pigs and, more important, making a profit on them.

Mr. O'Sullivan

On the question of the 4/- levy per pig on every pig going to the factory, I want to ask the Minister if he knows of the position where farmers are habitually in the way of sending pigs to be slaughtered for their own use. Are they charged the 4/- levy also or are they charged more?

Mr. Dillon

Magna est veritas et praevalebit. I have not the faintest idea, but I will find out and let you know.

Agreed to take remaining stages to-day.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.