Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1957

Vol. 48 No. 3

Public Business. - Social Welfare Bill, 1957 (Certified Money Bill) — Committee and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Murphy

The first rate which is mentioned is 24/-, which is being increased by 1/- a week. I think we have more or less accepted that the 1/- a week is not full compensation for the change which has taken place. I was very pleased at the Parliamentary Secretary's reply to the debate because he at least avoided the temptation of saying: "And you too", the sort of reaction to "What did you do when you sat on the other side of the House?" He indicated that there is to be a sympathetic approach to these benefits, as soon as circumstances permit. I hope that that approach will be a very quick one and that circumstances will allow an early review of these benefits so that they can be substantially increased.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington, rather unfortunately I thought, somewhat criticised my approach to them. I say this because the former rate is mentioned in Section 1. The former rate was set in 1955 when it was increased from 21/6 per week to 24/- as the maximum benefit for the old age pensioner. I did not think that 24/- per week was enough at that time. There is this essential difference between now and then, that at that time there was an improvement in the benefit, but on this occasion there is not full compensation for the effective cut that has been made in the pension by the removal of the food subsidies.

I speak from memory in this regard, but I think that at that time my colleague, the former Senator Hickey, said he did not consider the 24/- as sufficient. It was, however, an improvement. We are now dealing with something which is a cut in the standard of living of the old age pensioners and the other people, and I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary has at least said that they will sympathetically approach the problem as soon as circumstances permit.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Sar a scaraimíd le hAlt a 1, ba mhaith liom ceist do chur. Before we dispose of Section 1, I should like to refer to the increase in the old age pension rate. I understand from the Parliamentary Secretary that the increase will be 1/- and also 1/- for an adult dependent and a dependent child. Would a pensioner's wife be regarded as an adult dependent?

Mr. Kennedy

No, unless she was getting a pension herself.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Would the eldest child of a family be regarded as a dependent child, within the meaning of this section?

Mr. Kennedy

No. The eldest child of an old age pensioner. Children have to be under a certain age to get the children's allowance. If the man continued to work and was over 70 and fit, he could register for work and qualify for unemployment assistance.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 2 agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

There is just one point to which I should like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary. This section deals with the means test for widows. I think it was the recent Minister for Social Welfare who told us in this House that if you were to abolish the means test for old age pensioners and blind pensioners it would cost something like £2,500,000. I quote from memory, but I think that was the figure he gave. While agreeing that it would at present be difficult to do that, I should like to advert to the fact that if the cost of living goes up, then the level at which a means test is applied ought also to change. In other words, if it is felt, under certain money values, that anybody with £104 15s. of an annual income should not qualify for a pension at all it is obvious that if the value of that £104 15s. drops appreciably in relation to the things it can buy then clearly that should no longer be the maximum amount an applicant could have. That is to say, the level at which the means test in money terms is applied ought also be changed when it is recognised officially, as it is in this Bill, that the cost of living has gone up. Therefore, I should have liked to see some modification of the levels at which the means test is applied. I see on this table—I think I am right here—that there is no modification of the old table on which the means test was applied—that is to say, the sums of money at which certain rates of pension can be drawn by these widows.

Mr. Murphy

Would the Parliamentary Secretary say if it is intended to do anything with respect to the contributory pensions of widows and orphans? Here we are dealing only with non-contributory pensions.

Mr. Kennedy

In reply to Senator Sheehy Skeffington, I should like to point out that there were several revisions of the means test as to income, and it was raised. The last time it was raised was the 1952 Act. I do not know the Minister's mind in regard to this matter and I, therefore, cannot anticipate what his view is in this regard. I should like to point out that there is a tendency for the non-contributory widows' pensions to vanish altogether and to be replaced by contributory pensions. Under the 1952 Act, there is nothing to prevent a wage-earner who goes out of the insurable class— and there are several of them who have done so—becoming voluntary contributors, so that, if his wife survives, she qualifies for a contributory pension. It would be well if that were known better. There are other social benefits accruing to them, too.

Mr. Murphy

Only if they opt within a certain period.

Mr. Kennedy

This Bill does not deal with contributory pensions any more than it deals with insurance benefits. It deals only with non-contributory social services.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 4 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without recommendation; received for final consideration; and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.