Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1957

Vol. 48 No. 10

Destructive Insects and Pests (Consolidation) Bill, 1957. - Undeveloped Areas (Amendment) Bill, 1957—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Bartley)

The principal object of this Bill is to extend the operations of the Undeveloped Areas Act 1952 for a further period of five years beyond 31st December, 1958, and to increase the funds available under that Act from £2,000,000 to £4,000,000.

Of the £2,000,000 provided under the 1952 Act, An Foras Tionscal has entered into commitments in respect of grants amounting to approximately £1,600,000 and I understand that applications likely to come before that body for consideration in the near future exceed the balance of £400,000 remaining at their disposal. With the assistance available under the Act 31 industrial projects have already gone into production and there are 18 more at various stages of development. The assisted projects cover a fairly wide range of products, including textile yarns, cloth and other textile manufactures, plastics, ceramics and a number of engineering products. The total capital involved in these projects is of the order of £4,500,000 and they are expected to employ over 3,000 persons.

While the results achieved to date under the Undeveloped Areas Act cannot be described as startling, it should be borne in mind that the tendency for industrial activity to concentrate in the eastern part of the country is deepseated. I think it may be safely said that few if any of the projects which have been assisted would have started in the undeveloped areas were it not for the facilities available under the Act. From the manner in which the volume of grants approved under the Acts has tended to increase in recent years it seems that promoters are becoming increasingly conscious of the value of the facilities available under the Act. For the first three years, i.e., to the 31st March, 1955, the grants approved were of the order of £150,000 each year; in the succeeding two years grants approved amounted to slightly under £300,000 and £400,000 respectively; while to date this year grants approved exceeded £400,000. In the light of these figures, it would be reasonable to expect that there will be a quickening of the tempo of industrial development in the undeveloped areas in the coming years.

No doubt Senators will be interested to learn that, apart from providing employment and contributing to the general improvement of the economic position of the undeveloped areas, the facilities provided under the Act are also helping to contribute to a solution of the most pressing problem facing the country as a whole, that is, the expansion of exports. Certain of the projects already in production have entered the export field and I understand that there are several projects which have either been approved or are under active consideration and which, if they come to fruition, will make a significant contribution to our export potential.

As Senators will no doubt have noticed, quite a considerable part of the present Bill is related to what will happen when An Foras Tionscal ceases to exist. The reason why these provisions have been inserted in the Bill is that An Foras Tionscal drew attention to the fact that as a considerable length of time may elapse between the approval of a project and its completion it would be desirable that there should be some machinery whereby grants promised by An Foras Tionscal, but not discharged when that organisation ceases to exist, would be paid. The Bill proposes that the Minister for Industry and Commerce will accept liability for all commitments entered into by An Foras Tionscal when the grants scheme is ended. I should like to emphasise that the inclusion of these provisions in the Bill does not imply that a decision has been taken to end the grant scheme. They are merely designed to deal with the position which would arise if the scheme were ended. There is nothing in these provisions which would prevent the Oireachtas extending the grants scheme in due course for a further period should such a step be considered desirable.

An Foras Tionscal has also drawn attention to the fact that certain practical difficulties have arisen from the provision in the 1952 Act that, in determining the amount of a training grant, wages in excess of the normal trade union rate for learners should be disallowed. The Bill proposes to remedy the position by repealing this provision and leaving it to An Foras Tionscal to decide how much will be given for training purposes in any particular case.

Mr. Baxter

There is no objection to this Bill, naturally. The House supported the measure when it was introduced originally and if there is a proposal for its extension we must welcome it. If we speak of ourselves as having undeveloped areas in relation to industrial development, we must be prepared to make some contribution to this development. We can see the vast amount of funds being placed at the disposal of Northern Ireland for the assistance of industrial activity there. They are, in this regard, spending a great deal more than we are and they are making it possible for big industrial undertakings from outside the country, and even outside Britain, to come into their territory.

As far as we are concerned, I think it is of utmost importance, when proposals are being studied, that we should try to keep as close as possible to the development of the type of industry which is related to the needs of the people here. While it is desirable to cultivate and develop an attitude of mind about the building up of new industries and new ideas, it is something of which we have not had a great deal of experience. If we are to have something stable and lasting, it must be related as closely as possible to the everyday lives of the people. We can see the disturbance that can take place with a great institution like Short Brothers and Harland of Belfast. How it happens, one does not understand, but it is conceivable that in the new world which we are entering in regard to measures of defence and attack in war, many of the orthodox resources and ideas and methods may have to be abandoned and there can be such an upheaval in industrial life as will have a tremendous impact on the economy.

I am quite certain we are not venturing into that field very far, but I do want to emphasise that point of view. We must approach this problem of industrial development, either in the undeveloped areas or beyond them, with the attitude of mind that we are not just going to produce something for the limited market we have here at home. When we cast our bread on the water in regard to development and industry, we must do so with the attitude of mind and with the conviction that not only are we going to give our own consumers the best commodity that can be produced from such a factory anywhere, but we are going to work hard and efficiently so that it can be put on the market outside our shores, and thereby earn an income for us.

I raised certain objections to the original Act and the restrictions imposed on, or the limit to, the area in the original Act. I am not making any very vigorous protest about this matter now, but it is true that foreigners coming in here prefer to remain in the east. That is perfectly understandable. It may very well be that we will have to adopt the attitude that, if new industries are to develop here and are to come in from outside with people who have the technique, the capital and so on, they will have to be given free choice to go where they like. It may be good national business to assist these industries even in the east, in the midlands, in the north-east or anywhere else our people can be employed. I know it is very desirable to keep our people in the undeveloped areas, but it is very difficult to do it. They have developed minds to the point where they do not accept that the confines of their own shores give them ample scope for their efforts and abilities. They are leaving their own country and going beyond it to find a way of life.

If the opportunity comes to the country to develop an industry that can only get a start by having it, as I say, in the east or in the midlands, it is very good national policy to assist in its establishment, even if it is outside the undeveloped areas. The Parliamentary Secretary knows the people of these regions better than I do. It is true that their opportunities and resources are limited, but that is perhaps due to circumstances over which they have no control. Whether we come from the north, south, east or west, we are all Irish, and, when we begin to draw lines and make efforts to classify our people into different sections, I do not think we are giving them the best opportunities to develop. I will not pursue that matter any further to-day.

I know, and all the members of this House know, that, in the Six Counties, they have not yet taken up the matter of building industries in what they might describe as their undeveloped areas. They have left the poorest and most remote areas until the very last. As far as we are concerned here, we have a problem, a complicated, difficult problem. We have not the training or the knowledge that is necessary and it is not available to us. We have to go out in search of it and have to find it, and that is not an easy thing to do in the world of to-day. In fact, we have to put a note of interrogation after the question as to why all our endeavours and efforts to base industries here have not been more successful.

If we cannot found industries in the country as a whole, one wonders whether we will have much success in trying to bring industries into the more remote areas, where transport and other matters of that nature are of major importance. While we all support this Bill, we may have to face the problem as to whether the proposals embodied in it may not have to be applied to the country as a whole. We are going to make one last desperate effort to provide a way of life for our people. We must be in a hurry about doing that, because there is very little time left to us, owing to the attitude of mind we have in the country to-day. There is not a great amount of time left to us to find the means of living for our young people some place in Ireland. It would be a good thing if the Parliamentary Secretary and his Minister did consider whether the time is now ripe for the extension of the proposals contained in this Bill to the country as a whole.

Mr. Lenihan

As a member of the House from the West of Ireland, I wish to extend a welcome to this very important Bill. As the Parliamentary Secretary has stated, the principal Act to which this is an amending Bill has been nothing but a success. In all, 46 projects in the West of Ireland and in Kerry and Donegal have been assisted under the Act and £1,500,000 of State funds have been approved of as grants to these industries. The total amount invested is in the region of £4,500,000 and the approximate number of people who will be employed when the money is fully invested is in the region of 4,000. That is not an inconsiderable achievement. It is something that the people in the West of Ireland are very proud to have achieved over the past five years.

The question arises as to why there cannot be similar developments in other areas of the country. As far as I know, the Industrial Grants Act which was passed last year purported to make available similar grants to other parts of the country. My information is that that Act, unlike the Undeveloped Areas Act, is largely ineffective. I believe that is due to the fact that it was very hastily drafted at the back end of last year. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us how many grants have been made under that Act. We know that 46 projects have been started under the Undeveloped Areas Act and I should like to know how many have been started under the Industrial Grants Act of 1956.

I come from a county that has not benefited overmuch from the Undeveloped Areas Act. County Roscommon has not succeeded as yet in getting any industry under that Act, and I hope that the officials will bear that in mind when they are considering further applications from that county.

A matter which was referred to by the Minister when introducing the Bill in the Dáil was the question of contiguous areas. He said in Volume 164, No. 2, column 293 of the Dáil Debates:—

"In the case of certain areas which are contiguous to these undeveloped areas, as defined in the Act, I have indicated that, if concrete proposals emerge, they will be referred to An Foras Tionscal for consideration and, if An Foras Tionscal indicates its readiness to give assistance, I will be prepared on my part to give sympathetic consideration to the question of making a Scheduling Order under the Act in respect of the area concerned."

I take it that should bring in certain congested areas abutting on the undeveloped areas, such as West Cavan, Longford, South Westmeath and Offaly. I gather from the remarks of the Minister that these areas will receive favourable consideration, if application should be made for industries for these areas. That is a very welcome provision.

Senator Baxter has already pointed out that a considerable proportion of these industries have been contributing, or are likely to contribute, to our export trade. That is a matter for congratulation and particular emphasis should be placed on it, in view of the fact that we are about to enter into the European free trade area. That is a progressive trend and should be encouraged. There is some hope for the future when we find these industries contributing to our export trade.

As regards the future of the country on the industrial side, a large part of our hope lies in the prospect of bringing American capital here. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has referred to the fact that we could play a specific part in American investment in the future European free trade area. In that context, the West of Ireland would be very suitable and would be an ideal base for any such investment.

We have heard a good deal of discussion lately about the possibility of developing the Shannon estuary as a major port. Possibly Galway and Cork harbours could be developed in the same way. The South and West are particularly suitable for American investment for the purpose of developing, processing or despatching American goods into the European free trade or common market area.

It is good to see the snowball effect so far of this Undeveloped Areas Act. In the first year, £150,000 was spent; in the second year, £300,000; in the third year, £300,000; in the past two years, £400,000 each year. If we can encourage American investment here on the basis of this country being a springboard for American expansion into European markets, then that effort could be further accelerated. The South and West could be utilised by prospective American investors. Heretofore, the trend in trade has been towards Britain and the east coast has predominated as the trading and commercial centre of the country. With American investment over the next five, six or ten years, the South and West could redress that balance.

I know that this may sound theoretical and speculative, but it is important that we should have a measure such as this making public moneys available to prospective investors, be they foreigners or nationals, for the purpose of developing the South and West. There is no doubt that we have too long had this pull between the east coast and Britain. It is time that pull was corrected and greater attention given to areas which have been depressed for years. There can be no opposition here or anywhere else to this admirable extension, the purpose of which is to make available from public funds another £2,000,000 over the next five years towards the development of the congested areas.

Mr. McGuire

I do not wish to say very much on this measure, except, perhaps, to continue what I was saying earlier on another measure. Giving an initiating lump sum to an industrialist to establish an industry in the West of Ireland is merely launching the ship or having the baby born. There has been a certain amount of disappointment and disillusionment. I know cases myself where industries have been started, involving quite a lot of initial capital investment, together with help from the Government and local capital, in which there has been very serious disappointment and loss of money. It is all part of a general problem to which I referred earlier to-day: our industrial climate must be one in which industry can prosper, not only in the undeveloped areas but all over the country. The climate in which industry and business generally are trying to operate here is not a healthy one. It is no good giving a man £100,000 to open a factory in Galway, if, when he makes a few pounds, a penal load of taxation is imposed upon him and he is allowed no proper depreciation value for machinery and so forth. In other words, it is no good launching the ship, unless the sea on which it is launched is a calm one and one upon which the ship can sail gracefully and successfully into the future.

At one stage, people had some criticism to make about An Foras Tionscal and how sticky they were in accepting some of the propositions put forward. I think they are quite right because, in the past 30 years, we have had too much of the idea of people trying to bring industries to places without knowing exactly what industries they were going to bring. Very often, people who, with the best of intentions, set themselves behind a project to bring an industry to a particular place, found themselves ultimately with no industry to bring. They went to the Department of Industry and Commerce and looked up files to see what was being imported and how much, in the vain belief that they could establish an industry to cut out these imports. That approach is absolutely wrong because these people become involved in something in relation to which they are completely lacking in know-how. The whole thing is amateur and it ends in loss of money, disappointment and disillusionment. That has happened in a majority of cases since we started our industrial drive.

If the right climate is created here, particularly in relation to benevolent taxation, and if we have a proper outlook as to what return should be given on investments and proper co-operation from workers, we may get somewhere. All too often, our workers want to start at the top. Anybody who starts an industry here finds himself in comparison with Birmingham immediately. If an industry is started in Tralee, the union marches in in the first week and says that the right pay for the people is such and such because that is what is being paid in Birmingham, and the unfortunate promoter finds himself faced with what amounts to an ultimatum.

We want a realistic approach. We must give industry not only a fair chance to start but a fair chance to carry on. If the proper atmosphere is created, the undeveloped areas will take their place. Industrialists may and will require special incentives to go to these areas. The natural place to start an industry is Dublin. As a business man, if I were starting an industry to-morrow, I would put it in Dublin, and, if I am asked to go elsewhere, with a view to providing employment, then some extra incentive must be given. That is where a Bill of this kind comes in. Extra capital is made available. I would go so far as to say extra incentives in the way of tax remission should be given to people in out-of-the-way places to carry on industries in such areas.

We should go back to fundamentals in creating an industrial economy here. We should encourage people to invest and, having invested, we should give them a fair return on their money, together with the facility of working in a congenial atmosphere in which they can be successful.

Mr. Murphy

Like the other speakers, I welcome this Bill. From the experience we have had of the working of the Undeveloped Areas Act, I am wondering whether we might not consider if, in fact, the purposes of that Act are being achieved and if the provisions are sufficiently wide in their scope. Reading the debate on this measure in the Dáil, I was struck by the fact that the Minister said that there were more applications for assistance turned down than granted due to the fact that it could not be shown that there was an economic disadvantage attaching to the location of the industries proposed. I found that the approach to this measure is to compensate the industry for the economic disadvantage of the location.

The purpose of the Act originally was to start a flow of industry to the undeveloped areas to correct the unbalance in regard to the setting up of industry, which has been in existence for the past few decades, and to get industries more interested in the western undeveloped areas. The Minister hoped if that flow could be started, it would gather force of itself. What he proposed and made provision for was temporary assistance for industry to move into the undeveloped areas and that, once that flow got started, the special assistance could then be withdrawn and the flow would continue of itself.

It seems to me that, considering the legislation from that point of view, it does not in fact go far enough, because if you are simply giving compensation to an industrialist for the disadvantage of the location, you are not, in effect, inducing him to move to the undeveloped area and to set up an industry there. What the Act provides and what An Foras Tionscal does is simply to give that measure of compensation. Where it is found that in fact there is no economic disadvantage in going to the undeveloped area, no assistance is given.

It strikes me that the general principle of this could be looked at afresh. For instance, I wonder how many of the industries which were refused assistance, because it could not be shown that there was an economic disadvantage in the location, eventually went to the undeveloped area or, because of the refusal, simply set up in the east? I should imagine if I were an industrialist, which unfortunately I am not, I would not take on the difficulty of going to the undeveloped area, if I were simply to be given compensation for the economic disadvantage of the location. I should prefer to stay in the east and do without that compensation, because, as I said, it is not an inducement.

If the real purpose of the original Act is to be achieved, I think there would have to be an inducement. That is the only thought I have on the measure. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister will consider that suggestion on its merits and see if in fact further assistance should not and could not be given by way of inducements.

I would just make one comment on what has been said during the debate so far. It struck me that while every Party and every individual would welcome foreign investment, foreign know-how and foreign assistance in the setting up of industries here, we may be beginning to look for foreign assistance without making an effort ourselves. We may be thinking that it is necessary to have American know-how and capital, without at the same time giving ourselves a push and seeing if we can do anything ourselves. We should welcome foreign assistance, but not sit back and wait for somebody else to come in and rescue us.

That thought came to my mind when Senator Lenihan was speaking about the ports and, in particular, about Shannon Port. I recollect that there have been suggestions that we should investigate the possibility of setting up a free port in Shannon. In this matter again, are we to say that American capital and know-how must do it? I do not know enough about it to be able to say whether in fact we ourselves should not get cracking on the idea and see if we can do it. Well and good, if we can get assistance from outside, it would be welcome, but surely we cannot forever sit back and say that if the American, Belgian, Dutch or British industrialists will not come in here, we ourselves can do nothing. We must make the attempt ourselves and, while welcoming assistance from outside, we should not lose sight of the fact that endeavours should be made within the country itself and would always be welcome.

Mr. Burke

I should like to point out that we have only a very limited amount of money available for investment in Ireland and it is necessary that we should invest this money in a way that will give the best return and the largest amount of employment. In the establishment of industries in the West, we must always take into account the disadvantages of heavy freight charges from the western seaboard to ports in Britain and Europe. I know of one commodity that is exported from Waterford to London at a cost of 160/- per ton and it costs 220/- to export the same commodity from Tralee. An equally high charge is levied on the export of the same commodity from the port of Sligo.

The Minister should direct the board to see that the industries established in the West are industries that give large employment and that the articles manufactured are of such a nature that the freight charges on them will be in no way a deterrent to their future. In the South of Ireland, in the areas adjacent to the ports of Waterford and Cork, there is the advantage of being able to compete on favourable or more than favourable terms with the east coast ports trading with Britain and they have the advantage of being nearer to the continental ports.

It appeared, from the figures which the Minister gave, that £1,500,000—he did not give the figures in that way— would require to be invested, from their experience, to provide employment for 1,000 persons. We can all see that it is very necessary to have this money invested fruitfully and beneficially, if we are to help to solve our unemployment problem.

That is why I say this board will have a very heavy responsibility, in seeing that the money invested in the west will be successfully invested and that these industries will continue to operate long after the period in which they will enjoy the benefit of these grants. If there is any doubt in the mind of the board as to the suitability of location, and if freight does not enter into it as too great a deterrent, I think they should recommend to those prospective industrialists to avail of grants made under the Industrial Grants Act and that they should establish the industries in suitable locations in the south or east.

We have no money to experiment and we must be sure that any investment we undertake, and for which the State gives money, will be a permanent investment which will not need any future assistance from the State.

Pádraig Ó Síochfhradha

Táimse go mór i bhfábhar an Bhille seo. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil malairt tuairimí ina thaobh, ach tá ní nó dhó gur mhaith liom tagairt dóibh.

Ag trácht ar na ceantracha neamhfhorbairte, is minic a bhuail sé im aigne go mba chóir feidhm a bhaint as na habhair agus na damhnaí sna ceantracha sin, chun an costas iompair a shábháil ar aistriú ábhar ón áit a bhfuil sé go dtí áit nach bhfuil sé.

Tá sé ag déanamh imní dhom, fios d'fháil an bhfuil ag An bhforas Tionscail, nó ag an Roinn Tionscail agus Tráchtála aon ghléas chun fios d'fháil cad é an cineál tionscail ba cheart a bhunú in áiteanna fé leith seachas a chéile.

An bhfuil aon duine ag dul timpeall na tíre ag cuardach eolais ar na habhair atá le fáil; agus, má tá a leithéid ann, an moltar d'aon dream feidhm a bhaint as na buntáistí sin?

Tá mé ag cuimhneach ar Chiarraí Thiar agus Theas, agus Iarthar Chorcaí ó Thuaith Ó Siosta go dtí Cairbre. Sa cheantar sin, tá olann go flúirseach. Tógtar an olann ar fad as na háiteanna sin, agus bheirtear síos í go dtí áit éigin go bhfuil tionscail fíodóireachta agus tionscail snátha ar bun; agus sin deireadh ag an gceantar ina bhfásann an olann sin, le haon tairbhe a bhaint aisti.

Ba mhaith liomsa fios d'fháil, an ndéanann An Foras Tionscal aon chuardach ar eolas dá leithéid sin, féachaint an bhféadfaí feidhm a bhaint as na habhair sa logán sin, agus críoch thionscalach a chur orthu mar a mbíonn siad ó dhúchas.

Gheofaí an gnó céanna a dhéanamh le hiasc atá ar fuaid an chósta sin ar fad, á leasú agus á chóiriú ar shlite eile mar atáthar ag déanamh sa Noruaidh.

Ba chóir gur ar an Roinn lascaigh a bheadh an cúram sin. Níl a fhios agam an dtéann an Rionn sin síos go dtí na háiteanna sin ag lorg eolais d'féadfaí a úsáid, nó an bhfuil siad ag fágaint an obair ar fad ar dhaoine fánacha logánta sna háiteanna sin, chun cabhair a éileamh uathu féin, gan gríosadh ó aon chuid den Rialtas.

Sna gleannta sin, atá chomh flúirseach ó Chontae an Chláir go dtí Port Láirge, tá mé cinnte go bhféadfaí coillte a chur, agus tionscal mór coille agus foraoiseachta a chur ar bun iontu.

Tá eolas agam ar chuid de na gleannta sin go raibh coillte iontu uair —áit mar Chorca Dhuibhne—mar a raibh, le mo chuimhne féin, coillte ann agus crainn 80 troigh ar airde iontu. Do leagadh iad san uile agus díoladh iad, le linn an chéad chogaidh mhóir. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil crann óg curtha in aon áit ó shoin. Na trí cinn sin, is tionscail iad go mbeadh buanas iontu, gan ceist iompair in aon chor ag teacht isteach sa scéal.

An bhfuil aon ghléas ag An bhForas Tionscail chun cuardach a dhéanamh roimh ré ar áiteanna agus buntáistí nádúrtha iontu, mar a mbeadh damhna nó ábhar chun tionscail a bhunú agus a an obair ar fad a thosnú agus a chríochnú sa cheantar féin.

Ba mhaith liom, nuair a bheadh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte ag freagairt na gceisteanna sin, go dtabharfaidh sé tuairim dúinn an mbeadh fiosrú dá leithéid á dhéanamh—fiosrúchán ag lorg eolais, chun tuairisc do bheith acu cad é b'fhéidir a dhéanamh sna ceantracha sin. Ní haon mhaith bheith ag brath ar na daoine fánacha, a bheadh a d'iarraidh, b'fhéidir, greim d'fháil ar airgead poiblí, tionscail a bhunú agus ansin a bheadh ag éirí tuirseach dhe.

Professor Hayes

Airgead bog i gContae Chiarraí d'aon duine!

Mr. O'Reilly

I take the view that grants made by An Foras Tionscal would be in the nature of an inducement to industrialists within the area, or people outside it proposing to set up an industrial undertaking in the West. Those grants would be regarded then as an inducement. I had always regarded these grants as inducements and I was rather alarmed when Senator Murphy suggested they be regarded as compensation to offset the disadvantages of going to a congested district. The very fact that a considerable amount of money has been paid out as grants to over 40 industrial undertakings would indicate that those grants must be regarded as inducements, rather than compensation. If they were to be regarded merely as compensation, in view of the disadvantages of establishing an undertaking in the West, I doubt if that amount of money would have been paid out.

As Senator Murphy suggested, there may be a particular type of undertaking that would not qualify for a grant in Connacht. If I or any group of individuals were to start a limestone undertaking in an area like South Galway, in competition with people in an existing business, most people would agree that an undertaking of that sort should not get a grant from An Foras Tionscal. If a grant were given in such circumstances, it would have the effect of giving State money to one individual, or one group of individuals, who would just be going into competition with an industry already in operation in that area.

There could be similar such cases in Donegal, which is covered by the Undeveloped Areas Act, where they have the technical know-how and industrial undertakings, for instance, in respect of shirt-making. If an Foras Tionscal were to give grants to other undertakings to compete in the same line, I think Senator Murphy would agree it would be an abuse of State capital. It is to provide that such things will not happen that the Act is so drafted.

I still hold the view that the moneys paid out under this Act are of an inducement nature, rather than a compensatory nature, to offset the disadvantages which industrial undertakings would be up against in congested districts.

While the amount of money spent by way of grants is fairly substantial, and while the number of undertakings which received grants is over 40, the Parliamentary Secretary did not tell us the number of cases that were turned down. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary may take the view that it would not be desirable to tell us the number of cases that were turned down, because it would create a false impression. We can all fully realise that a body like An Foras Tionscal will have proposals placed before it from time to time of an immature nature. Immature proposals would be ones which were not given a lot of thought or study, or any detailed examination with regard to the question of manufacture, the proximity of raw materials and the possibility of marketing. With such proposals, An Foras Tionscal could not go very far, and for that reason there might be a large number of applications turned down by it. I often wondered what percentage of concrete proposals were received, and what percentage received grants, because I have heard it suggested, and I have argued to the contrary, that An Foras Tionscal is a rather conservative body.

It has been argued that it is only when An Foras Tionscal are fully satisfied that an industrial proposal will succeed that it will give a grant. I should not like to think that is so. I should like to feel, since there is a reasonable element of risk in any undertaking, and it is because of that risk that it is quite often hard to get capital in a congested district, that An Foras Tionscal would be prepared to take ordinary risks. In fact I should go so far as to say "more than ordinary risks". When An Foras Tionscal can feel there is a reasonably sound proposition, a reasonable hope of good management and a reasonable hope of success, it should pay out grants. It would not be a good thing at all that it should be felt by people outside that An Foras Tionscal was so conservative that it would pay grants only when it was more than sure of the success of any undertaking. People investing their money in any undertaking must take the reasonable risks involved.

I do hope that, in view of the experience of the past number of years, and the fairly substantial success achieved by industrial undertakings in congested districts, An Foras Tionscal from now on, having found its feet, will be able to do its bit and not be so conservative in its approach to paying grants to concrete undertakings. It would not be a good thing if it should be felt An Foras Tionscal was too conservative. I myself do not think so.

Gearóid Mac Phartaláin

Ba mhaith liom a rá leis an Seanadóir Ó Siochfhrada go dtugann an Foras Tionscal gach uile ní isteach san gcuntas nuair a bheireann siad breithiúnas ar aon tairiscint a cuirtear roimh an mbord. Sé mo thuairim go mbeadh sé go mór ar thaobh aon tairiscint a cuirtear roimhe dá mbeadh sé bunaithe ar ábhar atá le fáil sa cheantar in a bhfuil sé ceaptha monarchan faoi leith nó tionscal a chur ar bun. Tá sé do réir réasuin go mbeadh sé níos oiríunaí i gcás aon mhonarchan atá ag lorg deontais nuair atá an t-ábhar ar fáil láimh leis, ná mar bheadh sé dá mbeadh sé riachtanach an t-ábhar a thabhairt isteach. Bheadh sé sin go han-éifeachtach agus mar adúirt an Seanadóir Ó Siochfhrada tá an freagra againn i gcás amháin, sé sin, go bhfuil olann go flúirseach.

Mar gheall ar an bpointe eile, gach uile thionscal a fuair deontas ón bhForas Tionscal is leis na daoine a chuir ar bun iad iad. Nuair a ghlacann siad deontais agus nuair atá siad bunaithe is cuma má dhéanann siad caillteanas nó brabach—is orthu féin an caillteanas agus is leo féin an brabach. Tá an dualgas sin ar na daoine a chuir an tionscal ar bun.

I should like to tell Senator Baxter that there is no leaning against the other rural areas simply because there are special facilities being provided under the Act for the western areas, and I think it is hardly necessary to mention them. They cover the entire western coast from West Cork to Donegal and when one uses the term "west," it must be taken to signify the entire western coast from north to south. I think that the balance has been possibly restored somewhat, if it was ever disturbed, by the passing of the Industrial Grants Act. But Senator Baxter himself in his opening remarks, in making a case against the location of industries in remote places because of transport costs, and so on, made the very case on which the Act is based and that was the argument which the Minister for Industry and Commerce advanced when he was speaking in the Dáil and Seanad originally in respect of provisions of this kind.

I do not know what practical difference there is between compensation and inducement in respect of special facilities being offered. I take it that the size of the grant offered must be sufficient to influence a decision on the part of the promoter to establish his industry in one of the western locations, as against elsewhere. There are exceptions, of course, and if there is no economic disadvantage—that expression has been used here—then the applicant does not qualify.

For instance, if somebody discovers a valuable mineral in one of these areas, he cannot—and this has been emphasised by the Minister on many occasions—get a grant under the Undeveloped Areas Act to develop that mineral because, whether he likes it or not, he has to develop it where he found it. But if it is a case of establishing a factory and he has a location east or west of the Shannon, the giving of the grant may decide which location he may choose. I think, in simple terms, that explains the function or the purpose of this Act.

I do not know that there is anything special being introduced into this amending Bill that requires an explanation, because all the explanations are, as I say, in the debates covering the original Acts. What the present Bill does is to increase the amount of money so that the operation of this Act can be continued for a further five years. The Minister has said that there have not been spectacular results, but there have been satisfactory results, results sufficient to justify a continuation of these inducements.

With regard to the question raised by, I think, Senator Lenihan, about areas outside and contiguous to the undeveloped areas, I would point out that it is possible in respect of some of these to have a Scheduling Order made, if, in fact, industrial proposals materialise; but I think it would be unfair to expect the Minister to make a Scheduling Order until definite concrete proposals had taken shape. Perhaps it is well to emphasise that the industries established with the help of these aids are not Government factories and the Government and the Department of Industry and Commerce have no more function in relation to their management when they are established than they have in respect of industries established entirely with private money.

That brings me to the criticisms raised about An Foras Tionscal being somewhat conservative. I think there is sufficient evidence on the records of An Foras Tionscal to show there are very many people in the country who are prepared to start industries in many parts of the undeveloped areas, provided An Foras Tionscal puts up the money. Anybody will take a risk with Government grants, if he gets them, but there are certain well-defined rules and practices now established that are invariably applied. Number one is that the applicants for the assistance must bear the greatest part of the risk of any failure. In other words, there must be more private money in the industry than public money. That is one safeguard. If it were otherwise, a great many proposals might get through that would not have as good a chance of success as they have under the existing arrangement.

Another proviso, and I think it has been referred to by some Senators, is that a proposal, no matter how sound it may be in itself, must not be of a kind that if an industry is established, it is likely to render existing industries, established with private finance, uneconomic. Anybody can think of some commodity that is being produced in sufficient quantity at present for, say, the home market, and if another producing plant is set up, the entire production of that commodity might become uneconomic. Therefore, State money will not be put into an industry which would be calculated to produce a result of that kind. If the promoters want to set up that industry with their own money, either in the undeveloped areas or outside, they are quite free to do it. That is a further consideration that An Foras Tionscal has to bear in mind.

There are one or two other things which are emphasised in a leaflet issued by An Foras Tionscal. One of these is that the industries will be likely to provide or maintain employment in the area and another is that financial assistance is necessary to ensure the establishment and continuance of that industry. It may be that, in respect of the application of these rules, people may say that An Foras Tionscal is a conservative body, that it has a narrow outlook on this matter and that its conservative attitude is rendering the operation of the Act nugatory. On the other hand, there was evidence in some of the speeches made to-night that there was a danger that An Foras Tionscal was leaning in the opposite direction. My suggestion is that An Foras Tionscal has steered a clear course right between these two extremes. It is not, on the one hand, over-conservative and on the other hand, I want to warn people who think that they can set up industries on State money that An Foras Tionscal is not so flaithiúil as to accommodate them.

On the whole, I think they have done the right thing in saying that the initiative and drive has got to come from the people who want to have the industry. I think it is quite clear to everybody that An Foras Tionscal is doing splendid work. There ought to be, and we have found that there is, sufficient initiative and also a reasonable amount of capital available, both inside and outside the undeveloped areas, to induce an increasing number of industries to find a location inside these areas. It has been particularly gratifying that foreigners also have shown an interest in the operation of this Act. I do not know if I am correct in saying that Americans show preference for complete ownership of the industries which they wish to establish and that the British, in comparison, like to be partnered by Irish industrialists.

I do know at least one recently-arrived American who preferred to have the entire ownership to himself, but he did show an interest in the facilities afforded by An Foras Tionscal. On the other hand, there are several others who have a sort of hybrid directorate, composed of Irish and British. An Foras Tionscal is not concerned very much with considerations of that kind. They make their decisions entirely on the principles I have referred to.

There is reasonable hope that this Act, given a further period of five years, will produce much better results, because the character of the grants made indicate projects which will, at the end of the five years, have absorbed the additional money which is being made available under this Bill.

The reasons for suggesting that these industries should be in the east and south, as advanced by Senator Burke, are the reasons why the Undeveloped Areas Act is there. There is a definite disparity of advantage existing between the west and the east. We would have no hope of making any reasonable progress in the undeveloped areas industrially, if that disadvantage was not reduced as much as possible. I think it will be freely admitted that emigration is most rampant in those undeveloped areas and that the population there is the population which we can least afford to lose by emigration. By comparison with Leinster and Munster, the problem has now reached a point at which it is imperative that we must preserve the population.

The only hope we have of doing that is by an increase in industrial employment. It has been said that our emigrants find their way to towns and cities in America and England. The alternative is to give them an opportunity of settling down in an Irish town and the advantage of this Act is that there is a reasonable chance that they will not have to go to the Irish town at all. Some of these industries are finding their way to the rural places. That is a distinct advantage and a feature which should be noted in connection with this measure.

I do not know if there is anything else I should say. If there are any questions which I have not dealt with, I will do my best to answer them on Committee Stage, when we will have a further opportunity of dealing with them.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 4th December.