Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 Jul 1959

Vol. 51 No. 5

Finance Bill, 1959 (Certified Money Bill) — Committee and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

If the Minister or members of the public were asked what was the main feature of the Budget this year, they would say it was the reduction in direct taxation whereby income tax has been reduced by 6d. in the £ and the figure at which surtax becomes payable has been raised. Speaking for people engaged in industry and commerce, we welcome this small but acceptable reduction.

In trade and industry, we regard income tax as the most important factor either for or against the development of industry. The first thing I should like to feel happy about is whether that reduction is the result of a definite policy to reduce income tax as has been advocated as being the most important incentive to development and the prerequisite for development. That has been stressed again and again by economists and by leaders of industry and commerce throughout the country, and this is the first step we have had in this direction for a very long time.

I should like to think this represented a definite policy on the part of the Government, both now and for the future and that this is a token of future policy. Unfortunately — and I do not say this in any nasty way — there is a feeling that it was done on this occasion because of the British Budget. Those of us who know our Catechism will remember — I forget a lot about it but I do remember this — there is a difference between perfect and imperfect contrition. Perfect contrition is sorrow for sin because it offends God and imperfect contrition sorrow for sin because of the fear of hell or the loss of heaven. I would describe the Government's action in relation to income tax as an act of imperfect contrition. It was something they had to do out of shame. I hope I am not right in that. I should prefer to think of it as the beginning of a new policy in relation to direct taxation.

In case my own voice should not be strong enough, being the voice of only one person, I should like to quote the Chamber of Commerce official journal which is the voice of business people in this country. I think not only this Minister but all other Ministers will agree the Chamber of Commerce and the chambers generally have gone out of their way to thank the Government for any concessions that have ever been given and, in my opinion, they have sometimes thanked them for things they never got. In fact, they have been over-polite not only to this Minister but to Ministers of all Governments. The business community at all times have not been kicking up enough row to get justice and the bare necessaries for building up a strong economy upon which this and every other Government have professed to rely.

The Government's White Paper said that we rely upon private enterprise in this country and so on but up to now it has been the "so on and so on" that gets everything. It is these State bodies, including C.I.E., for whom money is made available in unlimited quantities, but very little comes the way of private enterprise. In this connection, I should like to read the comment of the Chamber of Commerce Journal on the Budget of June, 1959. The Chamber of Commerce made certain proposals to which I may refer later on other sections of the Bill. With regard to the proposals generally, the Chamber of Commerce Journal comments as follows: —

To some few of these the Minister has agreed, and with our customary politeness we thanked him for the consideration he has shown. In addition to sixpence off the standard rate of income tax and a higher starting point for surtax, both of which concessions will help to induce certain wealthy taxpayers to stay on his books instead of moving over to Mr. Heathcote Amory's, he has agreed to a 2% wear and tear allowance...

And here is the point —

...but too much that he has done is so trivial that we cannot but look with wonder and anxiety on the Budget as a whole. Is this the product of statesmanship? Is it seriously intended to approach the problems of national survival as matters of urgency?

...we have been given no evidence of any sense of the urgency of concentrating as strongly as possible on stimulating economic growth. More investment, more employment and more rapidly growing national income will do far more to benefit the citizen and the Exchequer than a whole host of these pennyworths of concessions. To get the capital to do the work that is needed we have to remit more and more of the taxes at present levied on industrial profits, so that the concerns may expand.

That is the comment of the Chamber of Commerce and their view may be summarised by saying that we are doing too little and, I hope, not too late. We have definitely shied away from what I regard the main factor in the creation of a strong private enterprise economy in this country. We give subsidies, protection, grants and so on, but we never give to industry the one thing it wants, that is, to be allowed to earn profits, keep them and plough them back. I do not even advocate that income tax should be such that, when people draw high salaries, they should be allowed to spend them wildly. You might maintain the present figure of income tax on distributed profits but there is no excuse for not doing something about undistributed profits which must be ploughed back.

If business people go to a bank — and I know very few who do not — to get an overdraft, there is no way of paying off that overdraft, except by some system of having undistributed profits untaxed or taxed at lower rates. All that happens at present is that you are allowed the interest on your bank overdraft, but what will you do about the capital? There must be a lower income tax rate on undistributed profits, or you can have a reduction in income tax generally on the standard rate which reaches not only beyond the narrow confines of industry itself but out into the spending power of the public and the incentives they get for earning money when they are able to handle it, use it and save it according to their own individual capacities and ideas of thrift and so on.

In the White Paper, the Government expressed their intention of relying mainly upon private enterprise for economic expansion. It has been pointed out on all sides by economists that lower taxation is essential, if private enterprise is to prosper. I know the answer which has been given in the past by all Ministers when they were asked to reduce the tax. They all say that it cannot be done this year. The only reason they did it this year was that they were pushed by Great Britain.

The Taoiseach, when Minister for Industry and Commerce, stated, as does the White Paper, that the Government are willing to take any reasonable risks to supply capital and to take monetary, social, and industrial risks in order to build up a strong economy here. I think that many risks have been taken in many fields but very few risks have been taken in remitting 6d. off income tax and the surtax relief. The accommodation which has been made costs only £1,200,000. This is being provided for by extending the figure for errors of estimation from £1,000,000 to £2,500,000. Here we see that the risk taken is one of the order of £1,200,000. Every time we met here during the past few months, we spoke in millions about other things in respect of which it is problematical whether they will be remunerative, not to think of saying they are the things upon which we mainly rely.

I would suggest there is very little risk in making a real gesture on this whole question of the rate of taxation. Might I quote for the House what the Vice-President of the Austrian Federal Chamber of Commerce, Paul Forster, had to say about what happened in Austria when he was speaking recently in New York? Mr. Forster, the document says, pointed out:

......that the income and wages taxes had been reduced in 1958 which left 800 million Schilling per year in the pockets of the taxpayers. These tax reductions — Austria lowered her income and wages taxes three times during the last few years — were always followed by an increase in tax revenue.

Why cannot we do that here? It is a business proposition and it has worked in Austria and why can it not work here?

I could go on quoting but I think it would be rather boring. I think there is nothing more boring than to listen to a man giving continuous quotations. I could, as you know, quote the case of Western Germany where the same thing happened after the last war. They used their taxation system to give an incentive to people at all levels of the economy. In this country we hear it said that private enterprise has failed. How could it succeed when it is throttled? It is weighted down at all angles. Even when businesses do prosper behind the protective barrier, they are throttled by taxation in the end and never able to build up an economic background of capital on which to live and expand.

I shall quote again the case of Sunbeam Wolsey. The Chairman of that company pointed out that in the last ten years they have paid out £1,000,000 in taxation. They have shown that they can make money and use capital, but it is taken from them and given to all sorts of problematical people around the country for businesses which very often we find winding-up after three months and causing disappointment not only to the economy but to the people who are led to believe that, through them, the economy would thrive.

The reason I am stressing this is that I feel it is the biggest thing in our whole life and that we have never tackled it from the time we got self-Government, never put our finger on the basic thing on which the whole economy can be built. Taxation, direct taxation is something which has never been tackled here and that is the reason why our economy is on the downgrade, in spite of the millions we have invested in the home economy. The Minister has undoubtedly taken what was described in one paper as a limited Budget risk on this occasion in order to reduce direct taxation and, as the Central Bank said, it is being taken in the confidence that the national outlook will be improved and the revenue ultimately strengthened.

There are times when you must make a really bold gesture to get a really bold return. You have to make a strong gesture to get strong results, as the Chamber of Commerce says. Fiddling concessions, such as taking sixpence off here and putting on three-pence there—when it should really be 2/6d. or something really dramatic to have an impact on our economy — are not enough.

We need outside people and outside money and we need not be ashamed of that. There is nothing unnational about advocating that we want the know-how and that we cannot generate it ourselves. I have spoken about our home manufacturers and our home people but we want the help of people outside and we want their money, and the only way to get the people here is by having an economy in which taxation is low, and dramatically lower than in England. It is no good saying that taxation here is nine-pence better than it is in England, or that it is no worse than England's. All the big industries in England are whining about taxation but at least they have the background, they have the meed of industrial wealth and industrial knowledge and know-how. We have neither the wealth, the tradition nor the know-how. In order to offset our late start in the field and our lack of raw materials, the only weapon we have is the weapon of taxation, and direct taxation at that.

At this stage, I should like to ask the Minister if it is possible to tell us when we are to get the report of the Income Tax Commission. I do not have any faith in that Commission. I think the Minister has enough date, and his Department has enough date, on which to make changes in the income tax code and I doubt from what I hear—and I have not got any inside knowledge, except for a few leakages—if anything very big will come from that Commission because their terms of reference, first of all, were very limited. I think we should tackle the question of direct taxation and make the taxation code such that it would encourage people to work hard and allow them a large degree of the money they earn. The people in business should be encouraged to keep a large degree of their profits ploughed back into their industries. As that is another aspect of the distributed profits everybody should be prepared to face that fact until we build up our industrial economy, and later on we shall be able to distribute largesse to everybody.

First of all, I should like to say that in the White Paper on Economic Expansion, it is pointed out that the Government believed that one of the necessary incentives to expansion of industry was a reduction in direct taxation. When that was being issued, we put it in deliberately and seriously and we intended to make every effort to reduce direct taxation as soon as and as often as possible. That is as far as that is concerned. Whether that is contrition or attrition, I do not know. We shall do it again if we can, but I cannot say, at this stage, if we shall be able to.

Also in the White Paper, the Government said they believed in private enterprise but that in certain cases, where private enterprise cannot be got for certain undertakings, State enterprise must be resorted to. We should be delighted if private enterprise took over C.I.E., but they are not likely to and projects like C.I.E., can be handled only by State enterprise and whatever money is necessary must be found for them. I do not think Senator McGuire is altogether fair in saying that everything goes to them. There are a couple of Bills coming, this week, I suppose, to the Seanad, dealing with enlarged grants for private enterprise, to cover a new factory or the extension of an existing factory; and various concessions and grants of that kind are being provided. I think that at least a great deal is being done for private enterprise and it is hardly fair to say that nothing is being done while everything is being done for State or public companies.

With regard to distributed and undistributed profits, that question has been raised several times here. We have this advantage, that the British tried that and dropped it again. They had a higher tax on distributed profits than on undistributed profits. I am informed that they dropped it with the approval of business men generally in England, because people in business there were paying higher taxes on distributed profits and not so high on undistributed profits—and when, in a few years, these undistributed profits came to be distributed as profits, they had to find money they had not provided for in their original accounts. They felt that the whole system was a nuisance, in a way, and they were very glad to get rid of it.

In passing, I might say that business here has an advantage over business in England. The amount paid by businessmen here on profits is 8/4d. in the £ and in England it is 9/9d. Perhaps that is not a sufficient margin for a new country, as Senator McGuire pointed out, that has not the traditions and some of the advantages of English business, but, at any rate, that difference is there.

With regard to the Income Tax Commission, they have made two interim reports. One of them has been heard of by everyone; it dealt with P.A.Y.E. We have decided to adopt that and to bring that system into operation as soon as we possibly can. It will take some time, of course. They have submitted now a second report, which I have not read fully yet and, therefore, I cannot say very much about it. I think that Commission will do very useful work, at least in suggesting certain reforms in the system of taxation here. I should like to say that, as far as I can read their proceedings and their work, I feel they are certainly working very hard. They deserve every credit from the Government and from the people, for giving so much time and for giving their brains to this very difficult subject. I should like, therefore, to express my appreciation of their work.

As this is the Committee Stage, it is nice to be able to get up again, when you have something to say. The first thing I should like to say is that I am always rather annoyed when I hear people say, for instance, that private enterprise could not run the railways. Of course, it could run the railways. It is fashionable to say that the railways failed here under private enterprise. I have always said this again and again, that they did not fail under private enterprise. Private enterprise was not allowed to work since 1914 on the Irish railways, when they were very wealthy, very strong and very efficient and a gilt-edged investment.

What happened? When the trade unions got into action and made wage demands, there was a Railway Tribunal set up, during the 1914-18 war, by the British Government, which did not allow the railways to translate their costs into their prices—and, of course, it did not work. I could not run a private enterprise business if I were not allowed to have my prices include my costs.

They had the Railway Tribunal sitting on them all the time, from 1914 up to the day they had to go out of business. Incidentally, all the shareholders lost all their investments and savings and all their goods, through no fault of their own and through no fault of private enterprise.

It always rather annoys me to hear that only the State can run it. I grant that only the State can run it under these conditions, because the State can always afford to run everything at a loss. But we cannot afford to have everything run at a loss in the country. Private enterprise did not fail the railways. It was not allowed to function on a business basis. Even today, it could do so, if it were allowed to function on a business basis and allowed to run only the amount of railway that would pay.

I agree with the Minister that grants and subsidies and all sorts of things have been given to private enterprise, but that was just my very point. I think it was the wrong way to do it. I say take away all the grants, take away all the sops and supports and let private enterprise function by taxation. If the direct taxation is lowered to such a degree, we shall then have an area of operation in which we can have our costs right. At present, the most important thing, especially in view of the Free Trade Area, is to do away as quickly as we can with these protective barriers. The protective barriers we set up—as much in my particular business, in clothing, as 135 per cent. and 90 per cent. preferential —surely will not be of any use in a Free Trade world, such as we heard about yesterday at the Conference in the Mansion House.

The only incentive, the best prop and the best thing the Government can do in the future here is to forget about all sops and props and get around to lowering taxation. It is definitely the answer to the whole thing, but it is fobbed off all the time when you mention it. Every businessman, every banker, every chairman of a company, and every economist knows it, but we will not do it. It is said that it cannot be done this year and that we might not be able to do it next year. It seems to me that we will have to do it now and that we are getting the last chance.

We were told yesterday at the European Movement Conference, that we had an idea that we could get rid of tariff barriers gradually as undeveloped areas and be able to participate in the Free Trade Area and so on in due course. We now learn there will not be any breaking-down period, that we have to go straight in and not with an economy made up of barriers. I suggest that the right weapon, the sort of industry to be built if we are to live in the new Free Trade world, is the one in which taxation will be used as a weapon for creating a strong industrial economy. Then we may have the right degree of capital to run our own economy and we shall be able to run our own businesses and be able to produce at the right prices.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 2 to 4 inclusive agreed to.
SECTION 5
Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill."

I take it that Section 5 is intended to apply the provisions of the Finance Act, 1922, to grants for universities, colleges or schools, to assist them in the teaching of the natural sciences. Is that correct? That is to say, money granted for the trust fund will be exempt from income tax. I was wondering why this refers to the natural sciences in particular and how one defines a natural science in relation to a university, college or school.

If the intention is that a rich person or a corporation should be encouraged to assist schools or colleges or a university, would one not imagine that the assistance should be a general one— that is, for any educational project, as distinct from the natural sciences? It would appear to me that the words "natural sciences" will give the Revenue Commissioners some trouble, but I presume that in some overriding way the Revenue Commissioners have power to define, for the purposes of this section, what natural sciences are. I must say I should hate to be asked to define it myself.

The idea of putting in the sciences was that it was expected that business firms would make subscriptions for research and so on. That is why it has been included. We had some discussion on that definition of the "natural sciences". I think that if we put in "science" alone, it would be much more restricted. That is my understanding of it. "Natural science" brings in such a thing as mathematical physics.

That used to be called natural philosophy, long ago.

I can understand that business firms might be desirous of granting money for the purpose of pursuing a particular kind of research, but one must also envisage the kind of rich man interested in education generally. I put it to the Minister that the whole problem of education at the moment, which the most advanced scientists realise—such as Arts professors and literary people—is to provide us with people who are not merely scientists but who are educated as well. One would imagine that, if anyone wanted to give a sum of money under a deed or create a fund for education in general, he should be encouraged.

I appreciate the Minister's point that you are thinking of certain types of firms but you might have people with a restricted point of view who might want to assist in education generally in the modern things, in classics and philosophy, which are very important and which everybody now acknowledges to be important from the point of view of science. The most advanced scientists are very strong in their view that scientists should have a liberal education, if that can be accomplished. For example, why should an endowment, say, of a school of engineering, which at one time, when the Minister began his university career was only one subject, be included? Engineering now consists of civil engineering, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, and I am told there is a fourth type in the offing.

I have brought in practically all the subjects, physics, geology, chemistry, and so on, but I am not sure about engineering itself.

This matter attracted my attention and I went to look for a definition of natural science. I may be wrong, but I could not find a definition here. In the circumstances here the natural sciences are not as neat as all that. I think the generic term comes from natural philosophy, that is to say, mathematical physics, now called, in modern parlance, applied mathematics, in which, I take it, experimental physics is included.

And I suppose chemistry, botany, zoology and geology. Then we come to geography. Is it one of the natural sciences or is it not? To my mind once you proceed to make groups, biology, biochemistry, you come to the different types of engineering, as Senator Hayes pointed out. My point purely is: are we going to have some of our taxpayers arguing with the Revenue Commissioners as to whether, having given a subvention to a particular project, they are or are not within the section? It seems to me that it would be desirable in the case of such a term as "natural sciences" that there should be some specificness about the paragraph of the subsection of the section.

What I should like to see—perhaps it is too much to ask the Minister to do it now—is that it would be "for the purpose of assisting such university college or school" full stop, rather than assist them to teach particular things. After all, what we are concerned with and what the scientists want to impress upon the Minister is the assisting of university colleges or schools, in general terms, not in particular terms. The amount the revenue would lose would not be very great and certainly the encouragement to corporations or individuals to grant money for educational purposes is very desirable. That is what the Minister has in mind and I rather feel it should be done without the restriction of the "natural sciences".

We wanted to give a bias towards the provision and expansion of industry by encouraging the teaching of the sciences. I agree with Senator Hayes that all the education we can get in the other subjects would be useful, but, as I say, we wanted to give this bias. These things have a habit of expanding and maybe it will come in time.

That is not my point. This is a proposal for legislation and I think legislation should be specific and accurate. This discussion reminds me a bit of what happened to a person I knew who went into a Dublin nursing home to have a baby many years ago. She was asked where was her glucose and she said she did not have any glucose. When she went into the nursing home to have her next baby, she took with her a 7 lb. jar of glucose and the nurse said: "Glucose? You might as well have brought sawdust."

I suggest that this paragraph is a fashion of the moment. If we are to be specific, let us define it specifically. I am all on the side of Senator Hayes: if you like, have a fund for research. In so far as the teaching of the natural sciences or the elementary aspects is concerned, in that sense, it would be far better to have a general provision for research and not just the fashion of the moment which we see in this proposed Act.

The Senator realises that research is already provided for and that this is just an expansion of that research that is already provided for?

I appreciate that but I do not understand why it should be the teaching of the natural sciences. As regards what is already provided for, I cannot understand why it should be selected now in this specific way. Of course, as I say, it may be pandering to some fashion of the moment but fashion is to be deprecated, particularly in long-term legislation, and I think I have given a very good illustration of the kind of thing that happens in relation to long-term legislation based on the fashion of the moment. Perhaps, as we say, it might be considered by the Minister. Certainly we do not want to press it at the moment but there is the question of the specific definition of the natural sciences and the other question, which is more general, that you either define that specifically or make a general provision, one or the other.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 6 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill."

I just want to say a word about Section 10. I was talking earlier about the necessity for encouraging foreign capital here and apparently the question of double taxation has been an impediment in the past. This morning, in the post, we got notice of double taxation arrangements with Switzerland and South Africa. The one to which I should like to refer and of which I have some personal knowledge concerns Sweden. Apparently the Swedish Government have been trying for some time past to make a double taxation arrangement here. I know of several desirable projects for this country that would emanate from Sweden, if such arrangement were in existence. Apparently there has been some very long delay, though why I do not know. I gather that such an arrangement does not exist. What is happening about Sweden?

I may say that one of the projects was in relation to afforestation. We have not so much capital that we can afford to spend sufficient of it on afforestation, which is a long-term project. A very big Swedish family want to get an interest in this country for afforestation purposes. I gather that the matter has been held up for the want of a double taxation agreement with Sweden.

I am glad to be able to tell the Senator that we have reached agreement with Sweden. Therefore, the people concerned may now make their application.

Have we a double taxation agreement with Malaya?

I do not think so.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 11 to 20, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 21.
Question proposed: "That Section 21 stand part of the Bill."

I could say a lot on this section but I feel that if we could only get something done about income tax, first, we could talk about corporation profits tax afterwards.

It is continuing exemption to certain people such as utilities, and so on.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 22 to 49, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 50.
Question proposed: "That Section 50 stand part of the Bill."

There was some correspondence in the Press recently which seemed to give the impression that, under this section, a person would be taxed on the capital sum in one year. That does not seem to be the case in the Bill. It seems impossible that an assessment under this section could be spread over six years.

That is right. It was amended in some respects in the Dáil. He had the option to pay in one year but it could be spread over six years. Now, where hardships would result, where it would bring him into the surtax group, he can spread it out a little longer. Furthermore, where he has children in respect of whom he is eligible for relief, he has the option of saying: "I would prefer to pay over three or four years while the children are eligible for relief." Therefore, he has a certain option of varying the six years up or down.

It is nice to know that amendments can be inserted which will have that effect. The ordinary man in the street has the idea that once a thing is written into a Finance Bill, nobody on earth can change it.

This refers to patent rights. What about the man who writes a best seller? That point has been raised in many countries. Is that covered already?

Yes. He has to pay on his profits, but sometimes it is spread over years for him, too.

What does "covered already" mean? Does the Revenue get the maximum out of it?

It means that the Revenue get it sooner or later. If they do not get it at the beginning, they get it later.

So long as they get it later, I do not think anybody would have any objection.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 51 to 82, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedules and Title agreed to.
Bill reported without recommendation and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

An attempt to peruse this Bill convinces any person that it must be very hard upon rich people.

It is very hard to be a rich person.

It is very hard to be a rich person and there must be considerable difficulties attached to being a rich person, difficulties which have entirely escaped me up to the moment. This is a Bill of 82 sections and it is a wonderful example of legislation by reference. It must be extremely difficult for any person to find out what precisely his rights and his liabilities are under the income tax code. Section 82 describes how the parts of the Bill are to be construed and the last subsection, subsection (8) reads:

"Any reference in this Act to any other enactment shall, except so far as the context otherwise requires, be construed as a reference to that enactment as amended by or under any other enactment, including this Act."

Supposing some unfortunate citizen or, should I say, some extremely fortunate citizen, wants to find out what his rights and liabilities are, has he not an extraordinary task? I do not know whether the Income Tax Acts could be consolidated. In America—I am not sure about this; it is not my business—they pass a new Act every year so that you can find all the information you require within one volume, but you cannot find it here without extraordinary references and cross-references. I was interested in this legislation in relation to educational endowments and it referred me to the 1922 Act, the 1957 Act and the 1958 Act, and then I found out that there was the 1942 Act as well.

If you have any substantial income, you have to employ an expert and I am told by business firms that as well as employing experts on income tax, they also have to employ experts on customs duty. If you import any considerable quantity of goods, it pays you to employ a special person to do nothing else but wrestle with customs officers. The customs officers can be very charming people but they are bound up in this extraordinary code. Therefore, you have to pay the tax, plus the cost of finding out what you have to pay, or rather, plus the cost of finding out what is the minimum you must pay. In other words, the Minister for Finance is indirectly an employer of labour. Apart from the civil servants who help him and apart from the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance, there are other people, accountants, income tax inspectors and various other people who are employed helping citizens and sometimes, I suppose I should say, impeding citizens in grappling with those Acts.

We are always saying we object to legislation by reference, but this is the most fantastic example of legislation by reference we have ever had. What I was told about it turned out to be true: "The Finance Bill will not take very long because it is too technical." Could anything be truer? Technical and all as it is, there are unfortunate people who have to know what it means and it leads to the employment of large numbers of experts. Perhaps we should not be sorry for that. All I want is to have the code simplified for the ordinary person who is liable to income tax— and it applies to a great many more people now than before. I am not arguing on the merits of the Bill but in relation to the form of the Bill, the complexity of its cross-references and the difficulty of understanding what it really means.

I wish to add a word or two to what Senator Hayes has said. I have been asked by some members of the accounting profession to complain to the Minister that the Finance Acts are not readily accessible in convenient form and I have been told that it is very difficult to come by the 1958 Finance Act in a convenient form. I have been asked to request the Minister to ensure that this Act will be available soon for chartered accountants, solicitors and other people who wish to consult it.

This arises out of what Senator Hayes has said and perhaps I might add this. The very complexity of the legislation in itself serves a useful purpose. There would be a great deal more unemployment amongst the B.Comms. from University College, if it were not for all the work which chartered accountants do in trying to interpret the various Finance Acts every year. I have actually been attacked for my attempts to simplify the income tax code by these professional people saying:—"If you had your way, there would be no jobs for us." I am all in favour of this Bill. The more complex it is, the better. The more sections and the more reference to other Acts the better but I would ask the Minister to ensure that the professional interpreters of this legislation will have copies available for interpretation.

I asked the Minister —perhaps he did not remember my question—when the public might expect some tangible results from the Commission on Income Tax. When that comes, it might be the time to make this Finance Bill more understandable to the intelligent, if not the unintelligent, man in the street.

Táim ar aon aigne leis an Seanadóir Ó Briain faoi dho-thuigtheacht na dtéarmaí san mBille seo agus i ngach Bille gach bliain a thagann sé amach ach ní hé sin atá ar aigne agam anois chun caint a dhéanamh air. Tá ní amháin tar éis teacht isteach sa mbailiúchán le déanaí ina gcuirtear iachall ar na fostaitheoirí an cháin a bhailiúión lucht fostaíochta go minic. Tá an nós ann na fostaitheoirí a bheith freagarthach i mbailiú an airgid sin. Is iad na fostaitheoirí a bhaineann £2, £3 nó £4 ó pháigh an lucht fostaíochta. Is iad na fostaitheoirí a gheibheann an drochmheas agus ní hiad na Coimisinéirí Ioncaim. Ba cheart go mbeadh malairt nóis ag na Coimisinéirí Ioncaim chun an airgead a bhailiú.

When speaking previously on a section, I said that the Income Tax Commission had issued two reports—one dealing with P.A.Y.E. which the Government have announced their intention of adopting. That, by the way, will answer Senator Ó Siochfhradha. The provision for collecting income tax from the employer was brought in in the 1923 Act. Of course, that will disappear when P.A.Y.E. comes in because it will not be necessary to fall back on that provision.

Nach ar na fostaitheoirí a bheidh an gnó ar fad?

The second report from the Income Tax Commission I have not had very long and I must confess that I have not read it very fully. It deals with Schedule A tax and a few other odds and ends of that kind. The inclination seems to be to tie things up, anyway. They mean to report further. I think they are doing very good work. They are working very hard, indeed. It is a very complicated subject, as was mentioned by some of the speakers. They seem to be doing very well in getting a grip of the subject.

There are 82 sections in this Bill, as Senator Hayes pointed out, but practically all of them give relief of some kind or another to some section or other. There is practically no new penalty provided at all in this Bill. It is very different in that way from last year's Bill.

With regard to the point raised by Senator O'Brien, last year's Act is not yet out in a convenient form. It is in a long white form. We have not reached yet the tidy form in which Acts are published. There seems to be a good deal of translation involved. I gave an undertaking to the Dáil to try to get things hurried in that respect.

Perhaps the Seanad would not mind my mentioning an experience I had with regard to employing an expert? My income tax is not very involved; I do not get my income from many sources. Yet, I never understood income tax law and I had to get an expert to do it. On one occasion, the expert disappeared with my papers. I was told that the best thing I could do was to go to O'Connell Street and tell my tale. I was not Minister at that time. I asked for a man. I gave him my name and address. He looked up my forms fairly hurriedly and told me to come back, that he wanted to talk to me about this. I went back in fear and trembling. He asked me some questions. He said to me: "Look, I think you paid far too much money."

Coming events casting their shadows before!

He ended by saying that I could have a very big sum of money, either in cash or put against future taxation. I said I would take it in cash.

Question put and agreed to.
The Seanad adjourned at 8.15 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 22nd July, 1959.
Top
Share