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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Jul 1959

Vol. 51 No. 9

Question of Privilege. - Radio Comment on Seanad Proceedings.

Before we adjourn, Sir, may I raise a matter of privilege. It seems to me to be clearly a matter of privilege.

This evening, on the 6.30 news on Radio Éireann, a statement was made from the Government Information Bureau, with direct reference to proceedings here last evening. I have the statement here, and I propose to quote it, not for the purpose of discussing it in any way, but in order that Senators will be aware of what was said on the Radio. It begins:

With reference to the tendentious motion moved on the adjournment of the Seanad on Wednesday evening, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare has issued the following statement:

There is no foundation for the allegation that the names and addresses of unemployed persons have been supplied from official sources, for election or other purposes, to members of the Oireachtas.

If a Deputy, in an effort to assist a person to obtain suitable employment, requests that that person's name be submitted for a reported vacancy and that person is found at the time not to be registered for employment, it is normal practice to inform the Deputy to this effect. This facility is available to all Deputies at all times.

I think, Sir, that the use of the Radio to answer statements made in this House, is a clear breach of privilege. It is a very remarkable innovation, and I think it is the business of this House to see that it does not go unnoticed.

The question mentioned here was raised here last night in an orderly fashion. No Minister and no Parliamentary Secretary attended. The question was raised in the precise terms accepted by the Chair. The ruling of the Chair was criticised twice by the Leader of the House and here we have a repetition of that criticism in the words "the tendentious motion"——

Perhaps the Senator would refrain from discussing——

I want to say that it seems to me to be a breach of privilege. It is not the business of Radio Éireann or of the Minister for Social Welfare or of the Parliamentary Secretary to criticise on the radio the type of motion accepted by the Chair.

May I interrupt the Senator to ask where he got this statement?

The constitutional practice is and has always been that a matter raised in this House or in the other House——

Are we not entitled to know from what the Senator is quoting? Did he take it down himself? Was it issued by anybody? Is it an official statement from anybody?

This is exactly what was said on the radio.

Was the Senator there?

The Senator has ample machinery at his disposal and better means than I have to check on this. If it is not correct, I stand convicted.

We have only asked where did the Senator get it?

There is a story told of a boy being caught in an orchard stealing apples. When the man who owned the orchard asked him where he got the apples, the boy said: "I got them from God, sir." Constitutional practice is, and has always been, that a matter raised in the House is answered in the House. That is normally the practice. The motion was accepted by the Chair. It is only courtesy and also——

I am afraid the Senator is now proceeding to debate the matter.

No, Sir, I am explaining why it seems to me to be a matter of privilege. I must surely be allowed to say that I cannot leave it without saying what it seems to be to me. This action would seem to indicate a deliberate change of Government policy with regard to this House and it is for that reason that it seems to me to be a matter of privilege. I should like to submit to you that contempt for this House has been shown already by the refusal of the Parliamentary Secretary to attend and this is a repetition of that contempt. If Government statements on the radio are to be substituted for attendance by Ministers in this House that means a very marked departure from our normal democratic procedure. What we have here, Sir, is, in effect, Government by discussion and the innovation which I am bringing to your attention now seems to me to be the substitution of Government edict on the radio for discussion here. That seems to be a very dangerous thing. I think every member of the House should stand against it, whatever opinions he may have. I am bringing it to your notice so that you may take such steps as you may consider appropriate.

Suppress all reports on this House, in effect.

May I suggest to the House, in accordance with normal procedure that the matter be referred to the Committee of Procedure and Privileges? That is the normal practice.

I should like to point out that I do not accept this attitude of Senator Hayes at all. I still insist that this motion last night was tendentious.

Why did the Senator not answer and say that last night? Does the Senator accept that questions raised in this House should be answered, not in the House, but on the radio? That is the point.

I am not going to enter into an argument with Senator Hayes——

You are not able.

——because I know his technique but I want to say that I do not know where this statement came from. I did not hear it and I was not supplied with a copy of it by anybody. I got a copy here of what Senator Hayes has read and so far as the protest concerning the breach of privilege is concerned, the only breach that I know of was the use of Seanad Éireann for the same purpose for which Dáil Éireann has been used by certain Deputies over the past two years.

The position is that the Senator who is the Leader of the House has proved himself unfit to be in that position. He is ruining the transaction of business in the House. That will have to be taken up as well as the matter to which I have already referred.

Would the Seanad agree that, in accordance with well established procedure when a matter of privilege is raised by a member of the House, such matters be referred to the Committee of Procedure and Privileges?

I think that is the proper course.

If that is established procedure and if that is your wish, a Chathaoirligh, I have no hesitation in agreeing to it, without withdrawing any single item I said in reply to Senator Hayes.

The matter will be referred to the Committee of Procedure and Privileges.

Thank you very much, Sir. That is what we want.

The Seanad adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 5th August, 1959.

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