Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 1959

Vol. 51 No. 12

Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Bill, 1959—Second Stage.

Question proposed: That the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Smith)

As the House is aware, Johnstown Castle was presented to the nation jointly by Mrs. Dorothy Violet Jefferies and Mr. Maurice Victor Lakin in 1944 and was accepted under the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College Act, 1945. It is now proposed to transfer the property to An Foras Talúntais.

Since its acquisition 14 years ago, Johnstown Castle has become one of the most noted possessions of my Department. Apart from its historical and scenic values which were considerable, it has achieved fame as a centre of agricultural science. In its development the State has invested about £250,000 and I think the House will agree this investment has given very good returns. The donors, Mrs. Jefferies and Mr. Lakin, have of course been consulted and have given their consent to the transfer of the property to An Foras Talúntais.

The Bill itself is a relatively simple one and largely self-explanatory. The Preamble, a rather unusual feature of present-day legislation, sets out rather well the main purposes. Apart from the transfer of the College, the Bill authorises the extension of its purposes so as specifically to include agricultural research. This is included in Section 3 of the Bill. Section 5 of the Bill has been framed to meet Mr. Lakin's wishes that the existing Jubilee Nurse who has a cottage free of rent and rates on the estate should be allowed to retain that tenure on the same terms for her lifetime. Certain improvements of the cottage requested by Mr. Lakin will be effected by the Institute.

Section 6 has also been designed to meet Mr. Lakin's wishes that so far as possible the castle and estate should be preserved in its present condition. Section 7 of the Bill emphasises that Sections 6, 7 and 8 of the 1945 Act remain in operation. These refer to the preservation of the ornamental nature of the gardens and pleasure grounds; the retention by Mr. Lakin of the sporting rights on the estate; and the preservation to the donors of access to the family private burial ground.

Section 8 of the Bill safeguards the rights of the former employees of the Johnstown Estate who were transferred to the Department under the 1945 Act.

It is of course the intention that Johnstown Castle, with all its stock, equipment and buildings, shall be transferred absolutely free to the Institute. Other stations also have been transferred without charge. In accordance with the terms of the Counterpart Agreement with the United States Government on the setting up of An Foras Talúntais the annual State grant to the Institute will include the money for the maintenance of the services transferred.

I commend the Bill to the Seanad for approval.

Professor Hayes

I think this is a desirable Bill. Once the Agricultural Institute was established, it would seem to be logical that the seat of agricultural research should be transferred to the Institute and it is done in accordance with the previous Bill and with the consent of the owners, with certain provisos which were accepted. I take it that the staff of Johnstown Castle College will be transferred to the Institute on suitable terms and that they will not be in any way injured by the transfer. For that reason, it seems to me to be an entirely commendable Bill.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

In welcoming this Bill, I wish to ask the Minister a few questions. Naturally, it is a forward step to have Johnstown Castle taken over by An Foras Talúntais, but I should like to get some information, if possible, as to the transfer of any other State institutions or teaching establishments. I suggest it is in order to ask if there are any further transfers from State ownership to the ownership of An Foras Talúntais?

An Cathaoirleach

I think the House must confine itself to the terms of this Bill.

Professor Stanford

I should like to comment on Section 6 of the Bill. It seems to be very desirable. It reads:

No construction shall be undertaken within a view of Johnstown Castle or of the main avenues which is not designed in harmony with the style of the said Castle.

I hope this will be a blueprint for further Bills of this kind and I hope this principle will spread throughout all Government undertakings. I hope it may even govern the improvement of Leinster House when that is undertaken in the future.

There is just one thing I should like to ask: in the opinion of whom does this section operate? It is stated that "no construction shall be undertaken ...which is not designed in harmony with the style of the said castle" and I should just like to ask the Minister who will decide this and whether it would not be desirable to put the person or persons who will decide it into the Bill. Otherwise, I can see a good deal of controversy about matters of taste arising later on.

Mr. Burke

Senator Stanford has raised a very important point. While this is not relevant to town-planning there is the same sort of safeguard in this Bill as there is in town-planning legislation. The officials charged with the responsibility of seeing that buildings are properly erected are apparently much more interested in structural soundness and the provision of fire escapes and that they are built a proper distance from the road than in whether they offend against good taste. I have seen many buildings that have been allowed to go up in which there is no norm in respect of good taste.

The Minister might consider the suggestion of Senator Stanford and perhaps set up a committee—not necessarily all civil servants—to which such matters could be referred.

Mr. Cole

I did not quite catch the last sentence of the Minister's statement in which he mentioned the annual cost of Johnstown Castle. What I should like to know is: how much of the expenses of running Johnstown Castle will come out of the funds of the Institute? Up to this, the Department have been paying the whole of the expenses of the Castle and the College. Are some of the expenses to be passed on now to the funds of the Institute? The American grant is possibly a large one in one way but in another way it is, perhaps, a small one because of all it is to cover and, if additional expenses are to be undertaken in connection with Johnstown Castle which were previously undertaken out of the normal annual sums from the Department, it will reduce the final sum remaining for purely agricultural research, which is the purpose on which the money is supposed to be used. Will there be expenses in connection with Johnstown Castle that normally should be, and would have been, borne by the Department? Are we to eat into research funds for the purpose of keeping up this estate?

Mr. Barry

I should like to support Senator Stanford. I think it is a most noteworthy development and marks a milestone in our history if we are to have regard to aesthetic principles in a matter of this sort. I suggest the Minister should ask the Arts Council to advise him as to how that control should be exercised in the future.

Mr. Smith

The question of the transfer of staff and the treatment of staff on transfer is not left with me because it did not seem to be a matter that should be dealt with in this Bill. The measure provides for the transfer of the college itself, but I think I can assure the Seanad that in the event of the transfer of established or unestablished people, their interests and their rights will fully be protected.

As for the point raised by Senator Stanford and others regarding section 6, this section was suggested by the owner. I do not know what sort of machinery one could devise to meet the points raised, but here is what I have in mind. When we decided to transfer this college to the Institute, we found that the Act of 1945, subject to amendment of the law, would not permit us to do so without the consent of the donor. The term "agricultural college" was used and the building was about to be transferred to the Institute for another purpose.

My idea is that if some architect employed by the Institute should be asked to devise plans to erect a building or make any alterations, he will be obliged to make himself conversant with the provisions of the act of transfer. Just as we consulted the Attorney General when confronted with this legal problem, so, too, will those who come after us consult as to what they are entitled to do.

The architect employed by the Institute being fully aware of the limitations imposed on him by the section, who then will adjudicate and say: "I do not agree with your view that the building you have designed and the alterations you propose to make are not detrimental to the purpose for which this section was inserted"? I cannot see how that difficulty can be overcome, but I can see that the individual employed to prepare plans and make the design, being conscious of the limitations, would do his best to meet the requirements of Section 6.

Mr. Barry

But it might not be just good enough.

Mr. Smith

Even if you were to establish a committee of architects to prepare plans and another committee to adjudicate as to whether the plans so prepared were in conformity with the desires of the donor, it would not be easy to get agreement; but I am sure that, one way or the other, agreement will be found, and those who have the responsibility of interpreting this section will be as careful as possible.

Senator Ó Donnabháin asked me a question about the other institutions. It is no harm to say we have transferred the farm at Grange; we have transferred Glenamoy; and we have transferred the station at Derrybrennan. Now we are proposing to transfer Johnstown Castle. As far as Thorndale is concerned, we propose to establish there a pig progeny testing station —the second in the country.

In regard to the question asked by Senator Cole, I shall read the relevant part of my speech, which is as follows:

It is of course the intention that Johnstown Castle, with all its stock, equipment and buildings, shall be transferred absolutely free to the Institute. Other stations I have mentioned have also been transferred without charge. In accordance with the terms of the Counterpart Agreement with the United States Government on the setting up of An Foras Talúntais, the annual grant to the Institute will include the money for the maintenance of the services transferred.

As I understand that, the grant we make in the future to the Institute from the State funds will not be less than the grant which has been made to it in the past.

Mr. Cole

That presumes that costs will not rise at all?

Mr. Smith

I said "will not be less".

Mr. Cole

It covers only certain expenses?

Mr. Smith

That was one of the provisions of the agreement. In other words, the State would not save money.

Mr. Cole

I am satisfied with that assurance.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Could the Minister tell us will all the soil analysis and other scientific work be carried on by the Institute? Will advisers throughout the country send their samples to Johnstown Castle as before?

Mr. Smith

Yes.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages to-day.