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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jan 1960

Vol. 52 No. 1

Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am happy to have the opportunity of addressing Seanad Éireann on this Bill, the main purpose of which is to set up a single statutory Authority to control and operate the existing sound broadcasting service and the proposed television service.

Broadcasting in this country is at present governed by the Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1926. In Part II of that Act the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is empowered to establish, maintain and operate broadcasting stations, to charge fees for broadcasting certain classes of broadcast matter and to establish a broadcasting advisory committee. It also provides that all expenses in relation to broadcasting shall be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.

That Act made the broadcasting service a branch of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the legal position is that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is still responsible for the control and operation of broadcasting even in detail. Many people, and particularly those who have grown up since 1926, may be under the impression that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and his Department took the initiative in claiming the broadcasting service as one of their proper functions and have since been unwilling to leave the service out of their control. In fact, this is a case in which the Oireachtas placed the entire responsibility for operating a service on a Government Department although initially the Minister concerned recommended otherwise. In the light of more recent events, it is interesting to recall what actually happened before the sound broadcasting service was established.

As early as 1922 approaches were made by commercial interests to the Post Office for licences to set up broadcasting stations and in April, 1923, a public notice was issued inviting applications from persons or firms interested. Later in the year the Minister, who was then called Postmaster-General, submitted a White Paper to the Dáil in which he proposed that the firms interested—five in number—should set up a single broadcasting company but that there should be provision for access to membership by smaller firms. The main features of the scheme were that the company should undertake the provision and operation of a broadcasting service under an arrangement whereby they would receive most of the proceeds of wireless licence revenue together with the exclusive right to import wireless sets and components.

At the beginning of the White Paper the Postmaster-General dealt with the question whether wireless broadcasting should be operated by his Department without argument in a few brief lines. He said:

After careful consideration.... I came to the conclusion that the business of arranging concerts and general entertainment programmes was not one which a State Department ought to undertake.

It falls to me, after the lapse of nearly 37 years to submit that this statement of principle by the first Postmaster-General was well founded.

However, the Dáil did not accept the Postmaster-General's proposition. It set up a Special Parliamentary Committee to consider the White Paper and, early in 1924, the Committee presented its report which was no doubt influenced by special circumstances at the time. Briefly, it recommended that broadcasting should be a State service purely—the installation and the working of it to be solely in the hands of the Postal Ministry. Commenting on the Postmaster-General's reluctance to make the provision of entertainments to the public through broadcasting a function of the State, the Committee stated that it did not regard the Postmaster-General's objection as sound. Here I quote the words of the Committee:

No new principle would be introduced. The State has for a long time subsidised national culture combined with entertainment through its National Library, National Gallery of Painting and Sculpture and National Museum, not to speak of the Tailtean Games, and in the enlightened municipalities on the Continent, the same principle has been applied more directly and extensively to the cultivation of operatic and dramatic art as well.

It was on that recommendation that responsibility for the direct operation of broadcasting was placed upon the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs by the Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1926. The service was opened and the broadcasting staff from the start undertook their duties with energy and enthusiasm. When one considers to-day the resources of the organisation which began to give a broadcasting service day-in day-out and the difficulties they had to contend with, the wonder is how such a small staff managed it at all.

Initially the production staff consisted of five persons including the Director; and there was an orchestra of four. The arrangements for administrative and financial control were based on those obtaining in the Civil Service generally and, although the Director of Broadcasting had certain delegated powers they were limited in such a way that he could not really take any important decision without first obtaining the sanction of the Post Office and, in most cases, of the Department of Finance as well. For instance, he was authorised to purchase musical instruments as required but within a limit of £15 for any instrument and provided, of course, that the Subhead of the Vote was not exceeded.

With the passage of time, the more irksome restrictions on the discretion of the Director were relaxed but the first really radical reorganisation of the broadcasting service did not take place until 1953. In that year the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs appointed as Comhairle Radio Éireann five persons from outside the State service in a part-time capacity to advise and assist him in the conduct of the broadcasting service and to be responsible under him for the general control and supervision of the service. The detailed restrictions on broadcasting expenditure were swept away and broadly, subject to certain reservations essential for the purposes of Parliamentary control, Radio Éireann has in practice since been free to manage its own affairs and to spend the moneys allocated for broadcasting purposes.

These changes were, however, made without any new broadcasting legislation. Comhairle Radio Éireann had and have no legal powers. They are, in fact, technically part-time civil servants, though, of course, they exercise important controlling and advisory functions. When the Comhairle were appointed, the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs said he intended to entrust them with the day-to-day policy of broadcasting and that he himself intended to intervene only in questions of important policy. Moreover, the Minister appealed to Deputies in the Dáil who had been asking questions about details of day-to-day broadcasting to refrain from doing so and instead to address their enquiries to the Director of Broadcasting.

Although successive Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs have in law continued to be responsible for broadcasting in all its details, both Ministers and Deputies have observed the spirit of the reorganisation which has, indeed, been fully justified by results. Apart therefore from the need for providing for the introduction of television, it is desirable to give statutory sanction to the position of independence which has, in practice, been accorded to the sound broadcasting service in recent years.

I should perhaps mention here that after the establishment of the present Comhairle, the Advisory Committee on Broadcasting provided for in the 1926 Act, which was a purely advisory Committee with no executive powers, was not reconstituted in view of the further changes in organisation which, it was felt, could not be long delayed.

Meanwhile, television had been developing rapidly abroad and it was becoming increasingly clear that it would be only a matter of time before a service was established here. Consideration of the problem of television has to some extent delayed proposals for regularising the position of Radio Eireann because it was obviously necessary to consider carefully what should be the relation between sound and television broadcasting. I believe that this question would not have arisen at all but for the heavy expenditure envisaged in establishing and operating a television service, particularly a service operated on the basis of producing most of the programmes here and depending upon licence fees, as Radio Éireann does now, for the bulk of its revenue.

While the whole issue could perhaps have been shelved for a few years if the matter lay entirely in our own hands, broadcasting has little respect for frontiers, natural or artificial, and shortly after the present Government took office in 1957 the rapid development of British television coupled with increasing purchases of television sets here to receive British programmes made the establishment of an Irish service a matter of urgency. Unfortunately, the financial situation in the country at the time was anything but opportune for heavy State expenditure on a television service. Capital expenditure even on essential services had been temporarily restricted, and funds were not available for a television service without curtailing expenditure on these other—higher priority—services.

Meanwhile, proposals had been received from commercial interests to establish a service without cost to the Exchequer. It was in these circumstances and because any television service to be established here would, in any event, have to look to commercial advertising for a substantial part at least of its revenue, that the Government announced their intention of considering proposals from private interests for a television concession; and that subsequently the Television Commission was set up to consider, among other things, such proposals and the relations between the proposed television service and sound broadcasting. The Commission's terms of reference were on the basis that effective control must be exercised by a public Authority and that there must be no charge on the Exchequer, either on current or capital account.

The Television Commission reported to my predecessor in May last. The Report is a valuable exposition of the problems involved and I should like to pay a tribute to the members who met practically every week and produced the report in such a relatively short time. It was no fault of theirs that their main recommendations have not been accepted by the Government. Their terms of reference were restricted, as I have already stated, to consideration of the establishment of a service that would involve no charge on the Exchequer and all their recommendations must therefore be read in that context. However, the majority of the members indicated clearly their view that if the necessary capital were available there was little or no doubt that television should be established as a public service. They also expressed their misgivings about entrusting the operation of the service to any private organisation.

The majority of the Commission estimated the capital required to establish the service roundly at £1½ million and were of opinion that a service based on a reasonable licence fee and advertising revenue should pay its way within a few years. The Commission did not recommend any of the proposals from private interests as they stood. The majority considered that the contract period for any concession should not exceed ten years and that the concessionaire should not receive directly any portion of licence revenue.

On the relation between sound broadcasting and television, they were of opinion that while, in principle, both services should be under the control of a single Authority, it was necessary and desirable for some years that they should be controlled by separate bodies. Clearly the grant of a television concession to private interests would be hedged with difficulties, not the least of which was how to reconcile such a considerable investment by a private group with a reasonably short term of concession and really effective public control.

After consideration of the Commission's Report, the Government decided against entrusting the operation of the television service to any private group. In taking this decision, they were influenced by a number of factors including the improvement in the capital position, the view of the majority of the Commission that a television service here could be made to pay its own way within a reasonable period, and the difficulty already mentioned of exercising effective public control of any service established, financed and operated by a private group. The Government also decided that the two public broadcasting services—sound and television—should be under the control of one statutory Authority.

Before I deal with the particular provisions of this Bill I should like to make some general observations.

Broadcasting is the most powerful and pervasive medium of mass communication yet devised. It is unsurpassed in speed, range and economy either for disseminating information, news and ideas or for bringing music, plays, variety and discussions to a widely scattered audience. Because of the limitations of the radio spectrum, State control of the technical operation of broadcasting—that is, in regard to such matters as the frequency and the power to be used by each station—has been, and is, an inescapable necessity in every country. Programme control and operation have, however, taken various forms in different parts of the world ranging from directly controlled and operated State monopoly, through various kinds of autonomous public corporations which are common in Western Europe, to commercial broadcasting organisations operated under licence. This latter form has been most widely developed in the Americas.

The degree of State control of programmes varies widely between the extremes mentioned according to circumstances, and each country has no doubt tried to work out the form of organisational structure for broadcasting best suited to its own needs. However, the general tendency in Western European countries has been to establish broadcasting as an autonomous public service with the broadcasting authority acting as trustee for the national interest subject only to such powers of ultimate control as the Government concerned have seen fit to retain.

As I have already indicated, I believe that the first Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was right when he stated that the business of broadcasting ought not to be entrusted to a State Department. I also believe that in our circumstances a monopoly in such an important medium of communication should not be handed over either to private interests. This does not imply any reflection whatever either on civil servants or business as such. It is simply this, that broadcasting is a creative medium concerned with entertainment, information and enlightenment which needs a certain autonomy if it is to give of its best; it cannot do so if it is fettered by the rules and restrictions which are necessary and inherent in a Civil Service organisation.

On the other hand, if the service is to be operated in the best interests of the public, its policy should not be dominated by the profit motive—as any purely or largely commercial organisation must be. In 1926, the Oireachtas did not have before it, as we have to-day, so many examples of the successful development of semi-State enterprise such as the E.S.B., Bord na Móna and Aer Lingus. If it had, there is no doubt in my mind that it would have given sound broadcasting the kind of organisation proposed in this Bill.

All the arguments that can be adduced for operating sound broadcasting as an autonomous public corporation apply with even greater force to television broadcasting. Moreover, the two services must, in our circumstances, be complementary rather than competitive—and a common controlling body is the best means of ensuring co-ordination in the most economical and efficient way. I do not propose to labour this aspect of the matter further because I feel sure there will be agreement on the broad organisational structure for broadcasting proposed in the Bill.

It is important, however, that there should also be the largest possible measure of agreement on what should be the objects of the national broadcasting system—in other words, what we want it to do for ourselves and for our children. Now that television has added sight to sound, its potentialities are indeed, incalculable; already it has altered in many respects the pattern of living in those countries where it has been most developed. The television set has even become a modern household god with more power over its devotees than was ever held by the ancient idols. If this is so elsewhere to-day, what may not be the power of television here in ten or fifteen years' time when there may be a television set in every home? It behoves us, therefore, to ensure that our own broadcasting service is built on solid foundations to enable it to fulfil its purposes.

While one of the primary objects of broadcasting, including television, is to entertain, it would. I believe, be an abuse of a wonderful gift to use the medium simply to add to the many forms of entertainment and escapism we already have. A national broadcasting service must try to do much more than that. It should reflect our people's feelings, their tastes, their varied interests, their customs, their traditions, their Christianity; it should promote the use of the national language and preserve and foster the national culture. It should, as the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation has interpreted its obligations, be its aim to serve people in all parts of the country, in all walks of life, old and young; to bring broadcasting of pleasure and of value to them; to offer plenty that is diverting and relaxing and also to offer things of beauty and of significance.

The service should stimulate the life of the nation in many ways; by offering opportunities to those with artistic and creative and communicative abilities to develop and to be appreciated in their own land; by giving the people a good chance to laugh at and enjoy the same amusing and pleasant things together; by helping them to know and understand one another and to know other parts of their country better.

However, the achievement of such objectives must be related to hard financial considerations. Ideally, the finances for such a service should come directly from the pockets of the listeners and the viewers. In respect of sound broadcasting, we are, I am glad to say, in sight of the revenue from licence fees and a limited amount of commercial broadcasting covering the expenses of the service, though an increase in the sound broadcasting licence fee, which is, I understand, the lowest in Europe, will be inevitable. It is generally agreed, however, that there is no prospect of a television service being operated here without a large subsidy unless it derives a substantial part of its revenue from commercial advertisements. That being so, a large part of the programmes will have to have a widely popular appeal.

Some people may be concerned that the dependence of the Authority on advertising revenue to any large degree, and the consequent necessity to meet popular demands to a substantial extent, may result in a general degradation in standards, a monotonous similarity of trivial programmes and possibly the excesses of commercialism which have been the subject of much criticism in other countries. I think we need not worry on this account under the scheme proposed in the Bill. The Authority will be a public body with definite statutory responsibilities and having a substantial source of income apart from advertising revenue to enable it to give a balanced service of high quality.

There is no doubt, however, that the Authority will have a difficult task. It will have to build up a new service giving countrywide coverage as soon as practicable. From the moment the service goes on the air it will have to bear comparison with the programmes of two television organisations that between them are able to command the services of the foremost writers and performers and the best technical skills in programme production. To compete with such services with our limited resources of creative talent and money is going to be very difficult, indeed, but not, I believe, impossible.

As a people we have tastes and values of our own and by catering specially for them both in home-produced programmes and by careful selection of imported programmes, I am confident that a service can be given that will appeal to the majority of our own viewers.

So far as home-produced programmes are concerned, the new service will be hungry for worthwhile programmes of Irish interest and an opportunity and a challenge will be presented, not only to the Authority, but to every body and every group who have a worthwhile contribution to make to Irish television. In this regard I have little patience with those who maintain that we cannot provide programmes that will interest and hold Irish audiences because we have not the resources which the British organisations can command. On that reasoning we should attempt nothing in sound, television or in any other comparable field.

Neither do I agree with the disparagement of imported films and tele-recordings—what some have labelled with that rather unpleasant word "canned" programmes. Because of the voracious appetite of television, this kind of programme material is availed of even by the wealthiest television organisations and it is the fact that so much of it is now procurable at reasonable prices that permits the smaller countries to give a number of hours of television programmes every day, something that would clearly be impossible from their own resources not many years ago.

The Authority will be in a position to seek the best and most suitable material it can get from any source including the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. and there should be no question of excuse or apology for doing so, either by direct relay or subsequently by films or telerecordings. Many of the programmes produced by these organisations are among the best of their kind and it would be very mistaken policy, indeed, not to avail of them in so far as they are suitable and we can afford them. In short, until the Irish contribution to the service is substantial, the quality of the programmes will largely depend on the judicious selection by the Authority of the best imported programmes available.

So far as the financial prospects of the television service are concerned, it should be remembered that private business interests were confident that the service could be made to pay its way on advertising revenue alone. There is no reason why the Authority should not be able to do likewise with the considerable assistance of a growing income from licences, notwithstanding that their standards and outlook must necessarily be different in many respects from those of a purely commercial organisation.

The sound broadcasting service will, of course, have to gird itself to meet the impact of television but there need be no fear that television will supplant the sound broadcasting service. Experience elsewhere has been that sound broadcasting can and does flourish in parallel with television though television tends to reduce the amount of time spent in listening to sound broadcasts, particularly in the evening when the audience can devote full time to listening and viewing. Moreover, it has been observed— especially in the United States of America—that notwithstanding the great development of television, sound broadcasting is still the universal medium, reaching almost everybody at some time during the day and in the course of the broadcasting week.

Another interesting trend which has been noted in countries where both television and sound broadcasting are extensively developed is the use of the radio in circumstances in which tele-viewing is not practicable such as by the housewife while she is working and by the motorist while driving. The fact is, of course, that each form of broadcasting has certain advantages over the other and there is ample scope for co-ordination between the two. With maximum co-operation here between both services which will be best secured within the one organisation, it will be possible for sound broadcasting to fulfil the task which is foreshadowed for it in all countries that have television, namely, to cater for those who cannot afford a television set or cannot get good reception from a television station; to specialise in things that sound broadcasting can do better than television, such as world news, good music and imaginative plays and features, and to fill those hours of the day when television is not likely to operate.

The use of advertising on television is bound to affect the limited advertising allowed on sound radio but not, I think, to the extent that might on first thoughts be imagined. For one thing, television is not likely to affect radio audiences in the morning or during the day. Secondly, the sound broadcasting service has been limited in respect of advertising to advertising of Irish products and services only but this restriction will hardly be reasonable when the television service accepts, as it must if it is to earn substantial advertising revenue, advertisements from foreign sources as well.

The existing sound broadcasting service still suffers from a number of disabilities. The single Radio Éireann programme cannot be received satisfactorily in many of the outlying areas due to the inherent limitation on the range of a medium wave transmitter and to the mutual interference taking place between the broadcasting stations in Europe because of insufficient wavelength accommodation. As has been stated before, the erection of a separate very high frequency sound network offers the best prospect of improved reception in the outer areas and of giving a better service in all parts of the country.

Radio Éireann has always suffered the disadvantage of having to broadcast from unsuitable studio accommodation adapted from ordinary office rooms and Post Office headquarters staff have had to be accommodated elsewhere to provide space to meet the needs of broadcasting. With the aid of the provision included in the Bill for the capital purposes of sound broadcasting and of increased revenue to meet the annual charges, the Authority will, I hope, be able gradually to remove such deficiencies.

A secondary but important purpose of the Bill is to provide for an extension of the powers held by my Department for the control of harmful interference with the working of wireless telegraphy apparatus on broad lines recommended by the Television Commission. At present the Wireless Telegraphy Act of 1926 gives certain powers to deal with such interference caused by apparatus for wireless telegraphy but not by other kinds of electrical equipment, machinery and appliances. These have multiplied in recent years and, as everybody knows, can spoil radio and television reception for the listener or viewer. Such interference can have more harmful effects in relation to radio apparatus used for certain purposes other than broadcasting, such as fire, ambulance and aviation services. Accordingly, the powers proposed in the Bill are quite general in character.

It is intended that the Authority should deal mainly with complaints of interference to radio and television reception by investigating, detecting and endeavouring to secure suppression of such interference and that otherwise the powers should be exercised by my Department. The proposals in the Bill will give ample opportunity to manufacturers, assemblers, importers and users of offending apparatus to co-operate in removing causes of undue interference. No prosecution can be undertaken under the powers proposed except in cases where co-operation cannot be secured after due warning.

I think I have said enough by way of general explanation and comment on the scope and purposes of the Bill. I shall now refer briefly to its more important features.

The Bill provides for the establishment of a statutory Authority whose main function will be to promote a service of national broadcasting in sound and television. It will be under an express obligation to bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language and preserving and developing the national culture but otherwise—apart from a limited number of powers reserved to me and the Government for the purpose of ultimate control—the Authority will have the widest possible measure of independence. In regard, for instance, to programmes and advertisements in the programmes, it has been considered unnecessary and, indeed, undesirable to try to legislate in any great detail. The approach has been to impose only the minimum statutory obligations and restrictions on the Authority—such as an obligation to preserve impartiality in matters of public controversy—so that it may have the maximum freedom within the broad context of its functions to formulate and implement its own policies.

As regards programme standards, the Bill is silent apart from what is said about the Authority's duty with respect to national aims in Section 17. This is deliberate because it is recognised that phraseology can do nothing to assist the Authority in this field. As custodian of a public trust with a wide measure of independence and corresponding responsibility, the Authority will be expected to set its standards high and, as far as its financial position permits, to ensure a proper balance between programmes that merely entertain and programmes that offer something more.

The Bill deliberately says nothing either about censorship. It is the Government's wish that the Authority should act as its own censor, recognising the absolute importance of safeguarding truth and of preserving intact the moral integrity of our people. It is intended that in this process the Authority will maintain liaison and a common standard with the national film censor. The necessary arrangements towards this end will be made. There is provision for the appointment of advisory committees and advisers.

The Authority will, of course, take over the control and operation of Radio Éireann and will be empowered to recruit staff—normally after public competition in respect of non-specialised posts—and determine their remuneration and conditions of service. Arrangements will be made to preserve the superannuation privileges of officers of the new Authority who have transferred from the existing sound broadcasting service.

Section 24 provides that the Authority shall so conduct its affairs as to become self-supporting at the earliest possible date. In the first five years, it is proposed that, in addition to revenue from licence fees and advertisements, the Authority shall receive non-repayable grants, not exceeding in the aggregate £500,000. In this regard, I should explain that without taking account of interest on capital, depreciation or pension liability, Radio Éireann has been operating at a loss amounting to about £125,000 in 1959/60 in respect of services rendered free by the Post Office and other Government Departments. In future, the costs of these and of all other services received will have to be paid for by the Authority and it will also have to provide for pension liability, depreciation etc. The proposed non-repayable grants will do little more therefore than enable a smooth transition to be made from Ministerial control to the control of the Authority.

No part of the £500,000 proposed in Section 22 (2) as the limit for these non-repayable grants is intended for the television service as it is the intention of the Government that the service should be operated without ultimate cost to the Exchequer.

The funds for the establishment of the television service will come from the repayable advances provided for in Section 23. The amount, £2 million, proposed is intended to cover capital and working capital which the Television Commission estimated at £1½ million. The balance of £½ million is provided for miscellaneous purposes including improvement of national coverage of the sound broadcasting system and provision of new sound studios and administrative offices.

Provision is being made to empower the Authority to issue broadcasting receiving licences and to collect, and to enforce the collection, of radio and television licence fees. This arrangement will not come into operation unless there is agreement with the Authority that it can undertake these functions more efficiently and economically than the Post Office. It is probable, however, that the assistance of the Post Office will be required in any alternative system that may be devised.

Certain powers for compulsory acquisition of land for transmitting and repeater stations are proposed in Section 30. These stations will normally be on particular mountain or hill tops where acquisition in the normal course may be very difficult and protracted.

Section 31 provides that I may direct the authority to broadcast certain official announcements or to refrain from broadcasting any particular matter or class of matter. The first-mentioned power hardly calls for explanation. It is intended simply to ensure that time will be made available for notices or announcements by or on behalf of a Minister of State— for example, by the Minister for Finance in connection with a national loan. The second-mentioned power will give me a veto power on broadcasts which may be detrimental to the general public interest. I do not imagine it will be necessary to use this power to prevent the broadcast of morally objectionable programmes and I trust that the occasion will not arise to use this power at all. But circumstances may arise in which it may well be very important; for instance, the broadcast of a particular programme or kind of programme could be very embarrassing in our relations with another country or countries. While it may be argued that a responsible Authority would co-operate in these matters, the final say could not be left entirely to the Authority.

I have already outlined the provisions for the control of interference, which are contained in Section 34 and in Part II of the Third Schedule. I believe the principle of such control is universally acceptable and that there is, indeed, a general desire that the necessary measures should be implemented as soon as possible. It will, however, take some considerable time before the measures proposed are fully effective because of the impossibility of checking on the interference-causing properties of all the electrical devices in use in the country. In the long term it is the proposed control of interference at the source—that is, at the manufacturing, assembling and importing end—that will have the most fruitful and permanent results.

Most of the other provisions of the Bill are of a routine kind and will be subject in any event to close scrutiny on Committee Stage.

You will be already aware that in order to shorten the delay in the opening of a television service certain steps have been taken on behalf of the new authority. Following a recommendation by the Television Commission, arrangements were made for the acquisition of a site for a television transmitter on Kippure and for the provision of an approach road and services. Moreover, with the advice and help of an advisory committee whose members will later be invited with others to be members of the new authority, arrangements are in hand for the provision of the transmitter station and studios for the Dublin area and for the provision of the radio link between them. Sites for four transmitting stations outside Dublin are also being acquired. The costs involved will be recovered from the authority in due course.

I believe that this Bill is soundly based, that it will give the future Authority all the scope and freedom necessary to develop a vigorous national broadcasting service, and I confidently commend it to this House for approval.

I think I can speak for everybody here when I say we are glad this Bill appears in this House for its Second Reading and that it was introduced here. May I also say a word of welcome to the Minister on having made what I think is his first important speech, in this House?

The main thing that strikes me about this Bill is its extreme vagueness. The Minister did not in the speech fill in any of the important details which a perusal of the Bill fails to supply. The Bill is vague in nearly all its parts except about one thing. One of the last phrases the Minister used before he sat down was that this measure gives scope and freedom to the new Broadcasting Authority. As a matter of fact, the only thing that is absolutely clear and certain in the Bill is Ministerial control. Ministerial control is all over the Bill. First and foremost, all appointments are made by the Minister and no qualifications are set down either for the members of the Authority or for the Director-General or indeed for anybody else.

The Minister may appoint the nine members of the Broadcasting Authority. Nothing at all is set down as to what kind of people one would expect them to be, in spite of the fact that they will have extraordinarily important duties to perform—the Minister set them out very well indeed. Section 17 of the Bill places upon them particular duties with regard to the Irish language and traditions. Members of the Authority, themselves, it is said in the Bill, will appoint the Director-General. But, when one examines that section carefully, one finds that they can appoint a Director-General only with the consent of the Minister, so there the Minister comes in again.

The Minister also, and this seems to me to be a new thing, takes power to appoint the auditor to the Broadcasting Authority. He appoints the advisory committees as well. Under Section 31 he has what seems to me to be powers deliberately framed to be extraordinarily wide—he may direct the Authority in writing to refrain from broadcasting any particular matter or matters of any particular class. That perhaps is understandable. The Minister says that will be to prevent, for example, the broadcasting of matter which might bring us into conflict with another country. One would imagine that a Broadcasting Authority appointed after careful consideration would surely have, itself, sufficient intelligence and sufficient discretion to avoid that kind of gaffe.

Subsection (2) of Section 31 provides:

The Minister may direct the Authority in writing to allocate broadcasting time for any announcements by, or in connection with the functions of, any Minister of State, and the Authority shall comply with the direction.

What the Minister said, I think, in his speech was that he was compelling the Authority to give certain Government announcements. That, I think, would be defensible, although perhaps it should be hedged round with some qualifications; but, as this subsection is drafted, it says the Minister may direct the Authority to make any announcement in connection with the functions of any Minister.

The whole of Parliamentary politics, as has been explained here over and over again and as every member of this House knows, consists in challenging Ministers in regard to the way they perform their functions or for things they omitted to do that they might have done. Therefore, subsection (2) of Section 31 gives a Minister complete power to compel the Authority to broadcast anything he wishes, political or otherwise. I know that one of the answers is that the Minister would not do it. I am not accusing the Minister of wanting to do it; I am not even accusing his Government for the moment of wanting to do it. But the Minister certainly wants to put into this Bill that extraordinarily wide power for the Government.

Perhaps the worst part of the section is subsection (3):

The Authority may, subject to the consent of the Minister, announce that a direction has been given under this section.

Therefore the Minister can compel the Broadcasting Authority to broadcast, either by sound or visually, whatever the Minister pleases and he can prevent their saying that he has compelled them to do so.

Unless I am greatly mistaken there is in the British Television Act of 1954 a provision which enables the Independent Television Authority to say that the Minister has given them a direction. Here we are putting our Authority in the position that it must broadcast anything it is asked to broadcast and may not say that it has been given any direction. I do not think the Minister or anybody is justified in saying that a body which is placed in that position vis-á-vis a Minister could be regarded as having any scope, any freedom, independence or autonomy. That may be the Minister's idea and it may be what he wants but he should not get what he wants and call it something entirely different from what he is actually getting. Under the Bill there is extraordinary and extravagant Ministerial control which will lead inevitably to very considerable Parliamentary control, because Parliamentary control and Parliamentary Questions depend entirely upon the amount of control which the Minister enjoys under the particular Act of the Oireachtas.

Having said that much, let me come to some other matters in the Bill. The Broadcasting Authority consists of nine members. The Television Commission recommended that when these people were being appointed there should be consultation with the Opposition. The Minister has not told us what his view is on that recommendation. No qualification whatever is laid down for him and the same thing applies to Section 17. Section 17 says:

In performing its functions, the Authority shall bear constantly in mind the national aims of restoring the Irish language...

If that is so, surely we should be assured that some members, at any rate, of the Broadcasting Authority will have, not a smattering of Irish but a genuine understanding of Irish and the background of that language, of its literature and of the people who speak it; and surely one could also request that the Director-General should be in the same position, so that he himself would be a judge of what ought to go on and what ought not to go on with regard to the Irish language. We shall come to all that in Committee but one thing ought to be said: if we are to have Irish language broadcasts, they should be first-class. They should be associated with good viewing and not with second-rate programmes.

We have insufficient information in this regard. The Bill does not give much information; the Minister's speech, except for some very interesting history, does not give a great deal of information either. It might be said that one can turn to the report of the Television Commission, but the report of the Television Commission that has been published is only a partial report. The all-important matters with which the Television Commission dealt are confidential. They are in the possession of the Government but they are not available to Senators, to Deputies or to members of the public.

It must be remembered that the decision reached here is a decision which will prove to be very costly. We are to spend £2 million in the beginning on the setting up of a television station; £1½ million for that purpose and £½ million for very sorely needed improvements in our sound broadcasting system which heretofore has been known as Radio Eireann.

The Minister says he thinks that expenditure may be recouped, but he gave us no reason for so thinking. Is there any reason for thinking we shall get back any of that money, and what are the genuine reasons for thinking that this service can be made to pay?

I know it can be argued that we ought to have a television service and it may also be argued that we must pay for it but that should be honestly argued so that we know what we are paying. Here we are in the process of actually paying while, at the same time, we say we are not paying at all. It is as clear as daylight from all our experience that when this Broadcasting Authority has been set up, it will continue in being, whether it loses money or not. People will have been charged for licences. People will have bought sets. Staff will have been engaged. Capital will have been sunk in it. There can be no doubt we shall begin by paying and that we must keep on paying.

The Government were not quite in that frame of mind last year, 1959, when they appointed the Television Commission. As I understand the terms of reference of the Television Commission they were asked to consider an Irish television service on the basis that no charge should fall on the Exchequer, either on capital or on current account. At the same time they were told that effective control of televised programmes must be exercisable by an Irish public authority. While they were told that, that is, that no money was to be spent from public funds and that there was to be control by a public authority, they were also told to consider making recommendations on proposals that had been made to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and any further proposals that might be received. In other words, putting it in simpler language, the Television Commission were instructed to see what kind of proposals commercial interests were making for taking over television here without charging any money to the Irish public and accepting Irish control.

I am not an expert on this matter and I do not know how that could be done but the Government with their advisers solemnly appointed a commission presided over by a High Court judge to consider on that very basis the establishment of television. One of the things to be considered was the establishment of television by a commercial interest while at the same time that commercial interest would submit to an Irish public authority.

The Commission, according to the report, considered a number of these proposals—that is the word they used —but the proposals were given to them in confidence and both the proposals and the recommendations of the Commission on the proposals are confidential and are not available to us and not available to anybody. I presume the Minister himself has seen them and has had the advantage of knowing what they were before he came to this conclusion. There is a minority report submitted by four members of the Commission: Eoghan Ó hAodha, Sile Ní Chinnéide, Michael Gibbons and Roger McHugh, which concludes by saying:

Our recommendations based upon the preceding arguments set out in this Minority Report are:

(a) that the concession for an Irish television service should be awarded to a wholly Irish contracting group free of any connection with competing British commercial television interests.

I do not know anything about that. I do not know whether such a group is in existence. I do not know whether such a group made any proposals to the Commission but surely this matter should not be a matter of political controversy. We are all equally interested in having a television service. We all want to see a television service set up and we are all as interested as the Minister is in seeing that an Irish television service should be successful. I wonder would it not be possible to do something to enable those of us who are in Opposition to see at least some of the proposals made. Would it not be possible to get these commercial interests —or some of them—to waive confidence and to show to the Leader of the Opposition in the other House or to any Opposition people who may be selected what exactly has been discussed by the Commission because we do not know anything about it?

This report is not the whole report of the Commission at all although it is headed "Report of the Television Commission". It does not deal with the important things which the Commission discussed. Of course I am finding no fault with the Commission, the way it was conducted or with the report because, in the nature of things, they had to report to the Government and could not report to the public. As far as confidence is concerned, Opposition leaders, whatever their political outlook, have constantly been entrusted with confidential reports and our experience has been that that confidence has not been broken.

I feel that unless something of this kind is done, we are not in a position to discuss this matter, which is very important from the educational, entertainment, cultural and financial points of view and, as the Minister said somewhere in his speech, from the point of view of ourselves and our children. We are unable to discuss it because we have not got the information upon which the Government's decisions were based nor have we got any information from the Minister as to how these decisions have been arrived at. For example, it will be a matter of very great difficulty to provide live programmes. Live programmes, I understand, are the most popular on television. Even the British Television Authority find it difficult—and, in fact, impossible—to supply a sufficiency of live programmes.

With regard to the Irish language in which I am particularly interested, there was considerable talk about one body which was supposed to be interested in taking over this television programme making on a commercial basis—a body of people who have been very successful in other spheres, the Gael Linn people who are mainly, indeed, graduates of University College, Dublin, to which I belong. I am not sure—I do not know—whether they could do what it was alleged they were trying to do. One of the things to which consideration might be given would be whether the putting of Irish on the air could not be entrusted to some such body. That body has shown what is very rare, financial capacity, as well as a sound and solid understanding of Irish and Irish traditions. It is not hidebound by tradition but is prepared to use new methods of entertainment and go forward and take account of the facts of Irish life today.

One wonders whether by any process either by this new broadcasting authority or in combination with some other commercial interest that could be done. It would, I think, be a very interesting kind of experiment to make.

It seems to me that the Opposition at any rate are entitled to know whether any proposals were made, what was their nature and why they were finally rejected. I think there should be some access to the evidence.

There are some other general points to be made but I would stress that particular point that this measure should, if possible, be taken out of the realms of political controversy. For example, will not the setting up of television in Ireland add to the advertising costs? It is alleged that we already spend £4,000,000 on advertising. Would not advertising costs fall on the consumer? If there are more will that not mean an increase on the consumer? Is that desirable?

We have been told, quite properly, in an address given recently that the highest standards, technical and artistic should be maintained. Is there a hope of maintaining high technical and artistic standards? For how many hours a week, for example? I think the Commission said 30 hours a week. Has the Minister any view as to how many hours are going to be given?

The suggestion was made before I made it by an independent person that an endeavour should be made to make this service a non-political one. As far as this Bill is concerned every single appointee of the Authority could be a political nominee and under Section 31, for example, you could easily have a situation in which what the Minister for Health thinks about the Irish Medical Association could be broadcast by Order but what the Irish Medical Association thinks about the Minister could be forbidden. Perhaps, if both were forbidden, it would not be a bad idea.

There are several other points. The Minister said in relation to the staff of Radio Éireann that steps would be taken to preserve their superannuation rights under the new Authority. There are a number of people working in Radio Éireann at present who have no superannuation rights but who have contract or other rights. Will these rights be preserved? Perhaps the Minister will tell us if steps have been taken to see that the present staff of Radio Éireann will be in no way hurt by this transfer. I am sure some steps have been taken because it is the usual thing but no indication has been given as to what the steps are.

The Bill appears to me to be vague. We have not sufficient information to know upon what it is based. We do not know what the alternatives are, how they were considered, what they amounted to or what their cost was and what guarantee any private people were prepared to give about the nature of the programmes and the control of the programmes. The Bill has the maximum of ministerial control for everybody.

The other thing which strikes me about television as a general observation is that television is going back to one of the most ancient forms of entertainment, namely the family and the visitors gathered round a big fire and looking at a highly skilled storyteller who tells his story with certain movements of his head, face, hands and sometimes his feet. In other words, the old storyteller was the precursor of the good man on television who can put himself across. The story was listened to in silence. As far as that went, it was anti-conversation. Television has brought us round again by a very wonderful mechanical means to one of the oldest forms of entertainment. This country is one of the few places in the Western world where that form of entertainment may still be found. When we have established our Television Authority, we shall have both one of the oldest and one of the newest forms of entertainment available to us.

There are some other points which can be made on Committee Stage. How many transmitters is it intended to start with? Is it intended to start from Kippure and serve Dublin only or is it intended that the rest of the country, which, I understand, cannot now get any station, should be served? We can come to all that in Committee.

The Bill, I take it, ought to get a Second Reading but I think the Minister in concluding, ought to make us clear on some of the points that have not been made clear now and, particularly, ought to address himself to the question as to whether the information that was available to the Government can be made available in some manner or in some part to people who have a Parliamentary obligation to discuss this question and to come to a decision upon it.

In the first place, I should like to welcome this Bill. I think it is conceived on the right lines, subject to certain detailed matters such as those to which Senator Hayes referred, which can be dealt with in Committee. The Minister is correct to take his own line rather than that of the Report of the Television Commission which, I must say, I find a rather unsatisfactory document.

The Commission made certain recommendations which were dissented from by six of the most influential members, who signed a reservation to the Majority Report. At the end of reading the Majority Report it is very difficult to know what the Commission really meant. As Senator Hayes said, most of the information on which they based the report is confidential and has not been made available to the public or to the Oireachtas. It is, therefore, possible that, if we knew as much of the facts as the Commission knew, we might perhaps take a better view of the report but, as it is, it strikes me as being unsatisfactory, first, because I disagree with its main conclusion that television should be operated commercially and, secondly, because, as I say, six of those whom I would have thought the most influential members made a reservation which is diametrically opposed to the main recommendation of the Report.

It seems to me we have to face this television question realistically, that the question is not whether we are going to have television or not, because television has already arrived. Old-fashioned people say we would be better off without television. Possibly we would, but there is no use in fighting against the times. I have no doubt that the same people who now say we would be better without television would have said in the 14th century that we would be better without printing and, 50 years ago, that we would be better without the telephone and, later, better without the cinema, better without broadcasting. The fact of the matter is that television has come and the only question now is, how are we to make the best use of it for the benefit of the country?

Furthermore, if television has come, as it has, it must be accepted as something which we have to provide. I am not a protectionist by disposition. On the whole, I think imports are a very good thing for a country; but to rely entirely on imported television material would be dangerous from the national point of view. It is much too important a service for which to rely on the foreigner and, short of actually forbidding people to install television sets, people nowadays will get whatever they can. Until we have a service of our own, viewers will be subject to all the immense influence of imported television, which is not necessarily bad, but at the same time, from the national point of view, we should provide a service of our own.

Furthermore, if other television services can penetrate into our country, possibly some of our television service may penetrate over the Border or, possibly, into neighbouring countries. In that way we will have, in addition to sound radio, an extremely valuable method of putting our views across to the outside world.

So that, therefore, I take it, the question is not are we to have a television service or not—because it is only a matter of time until we have one— but to try to devise the type of television service that will give the best value to the country, will give the people, first of all, what they want and, secondly, what they should be given, without too great a cost to the taxpayer. That is the problem which the Minister has tried to face and, although I agree with Senator Hayes that there are a good many obscurities in the Bill, at the same time, I think that the main lines of his presentation should commend themselves to the Seanad.

Of course, we must admit that a great many of the programmes that we witness on television leave a good deal to be desired. There is a good deal of vulgarity, low standards, a good deal of low types of advertising, which is far from edifying. But it is only fair to say that these things are also to be found in other methods of mass communication. They are to be found in the newspapers; they are to be found on the cinema and, to some extent, in sound radio broadcasts. The fact is that, when one has a medium of mass communication, unless there is very strict censorship, some vulgar material, some material of low standards of taste, some misleading material, some possibly dangerous material, is bound to slip through. The fact is that every method of mass communication has its abuses as well as its uses, but the fact that it has abuses is no reason for depriving the public of its uses.

The whole public cannot be highbrow. They cannot be highly educated in their taste in regard to music and the arts. The complaint which one frequently hears, that television is going to ruin conversation and is going to prevent people from reading, assumes that the standard of conversation is of a very high character and that the books people read are all very elevating and educative. The fact of the matter is that there is necessity to educate public taste, whether it is in regard to conversation or to reading or to sound broadcasting or to television. The fact that people have, perhaps, not very highly educated tastes is no reason for preventing them from reading or listening to the radio or seeing television. The real method to attack that problem is, not to prevent them from having access to the medium, but to try to educate their taste. The education of their taste can, to some extent I think, be done through the medium itself.

As I said, it is quite fashionable nowadays to decry television and, as I said also, it is no use crying out against something which has come. It is only right that we should try to see what are the benefits television can give. In the first place, there is no question at all that it does keep families together and keep them at home. I know that from personal experience of many friends of mine. People who were always seeking amusement outside, in cinemas and theatres, now stay at home and, in that way, far from injuring home life, television has improved home life. As Senator Hayes said, it is really bringing people back to the old days when they sat around the fire listening to a story told by somebody who gesticulated and showed his personal interest in it. That is coming back and surely that must be a good thing, especially in the country parts. There must be a great many houses in this country which are in lonely parts, away from cinemas, and surely the fact that there is a medium of this kind which enables people to get entertainment under their own roofs should build up country life and make the young people less bored with their environment. It may even to some small extent be an influence tending to reduce the amount of emigration.

So that, the first advantage of television is that it builds up home life. Secondly, of course, it is an immense vehicle for innocent entertainment and amusement. I can think of nothing which has caused more pleasure in the world in the past 50 years than the coming of sound radio and television. I remember when I was a child I used to hear the older generation deplore that they could not hear many operas unless they travelled greatly to hear them, that one could live the whole of one's life in Dublin without hearing the nine Beethoven symphonies, and remarks of that kind. With the coming of sound broadcasts and gramophones, people can enjoy music of the very highest quality in their own homes. I could elaborate that but I do not wish to do so.

However, I suggest that the coming of television has given even greater pleasure than that. People who are confined to their homes, for one reason or another, are now able to see many things that take place outside. They can see plays, games, race meetings and all sorts of things which they could not otherwise see except possibly in photographs afterwards in the newspapers. Now they can see a thing coming alive in their own houses at the very time it takes place, and certainly, of all the inventions that have taken place in my lifetime, I would say that broadcasting and television constitute the two which are all plus and no minus. In fact, practically every other invention in my lifetime has a deleterious side to it, and I cannot think that broadcasting and television have any minus at all equivalent to the plus in the amount of entertainment they have given to bedridden people, lonely people, people confined to their houses, and people at a distance from urban centres. We should all regard the coming of broadcasting and television as a very great addition to the potentials of people in leading a pleasant life in their own homes.

Thirdly, I should like to emphasise the great educational possibilities of television, properly used. We all know that attendance at university lectures gives people something which they cannot get merely by reading books. Certainly by listening to sound radio people very often get a greater grasp of a subject than by reading about it. That is even more true in the case of television because there are certain types of subjects where it is important to see what is going on—certain types of laboratory experiments in subjects such as chemistry and physics and also in relation to art, painting, sculpture and architecture. I cannot imagine anything of more educative value to young people than the possibility of seeing lectures delivered on these subjects by experts. Therefore, I think that the educational possibilities of television are, to a certain extent, overlooked.

I should like to quote from an article in The Guardian of the 6th January in relation to the setting up of an inquiry into education through television in England. I quote:

A working party to study ways and means of introducing teachers to the critical appreciation of film and television was set up two years ago by the Association of Teachers in Colleges and Departments of Education and the British Film Institute. Its report, "Film and Television in Education for Teaching"... was presented to a conference of the two organisations at the National Film Theatre last night.

The very fact that films and television exert such a powerful influence on the outlook and traditional values of ordinary people is regarded by the working party as the first reason why their potentialities should be the subject of urgent research at the highest academic level and should be used as a means of cultivating discrimination in the classroom...

It then discusses ways and means of fitting the study of film and television into the three-year teacher-training course now coming into being, first as a main subject for intending specialists, then as an optional section in a wider obligatory course and finally as a "curriculum course."

Therefore, in England the possibility of television as an educational medium has been recognised and we should recognise it here also.

Fourthly, I should like to call attention to the great advantage of television as a source of information. That may perhaps be related to the subject of education because, if people are getting good information in regard to contemporary news, they are being educated, in the broad sense of the word. The fact of seeing the actors in political controversies in other parts of the world gives people a certain sense of reality and a sense of immediacy which they could not get from reading newspapers.

A modern democracy, in order to work successfully, must be educated, must be well-informed, and I can conceive of no other method of mass education more calculated to teach people the realities of international political problems than television, properly presented. The people who would never read books on international affairs, people who would not even listen to sound broadcasting do, in fact, look at television. Speaking from personal knowledge of people who would never have sat down seriously to consider such questions as Indian politics, and so on, I can say that, as these things come across their television sets, they learn a great deal about them. At first they do not display much interest but I have noticed that they begin later to discuss these things between themselves.

Therefore I suggest, as I said already, that the relationship between television, reading and study is not one of competition, but that these services are all complementary. I have no doubt at all that sound radio has immensely increased the desire of people to go to concerts, to operas, and to listen to records. Similarly, I have no doubt at all that television will arouse the interests of many people in reading books on foreign politics and on international problems, books that would not have meant anything to them if their interests had not been aroused by what they saw on their television screens. I am completely certain that that is true and I am speaking from personal experience.

Finally, I come to perhaps the most controversial subject and that is the function of advertising in television. I think it is very important to emphasise that advertising is not all bad, that it is really a form of conveying information, and that, when one relies upon competition in society, in an economic system, advertising is a very good way of informing the public regarding what is open to them in the way of different products. Advertising has a definite commercial value in that it makes competition more keen. The most successful products tend to supplant the less successful and, therefore, the public can get things cheaper than it otherwise would.

It has been said in the Television Report, and by Senator Hayes, that the cost of advertising always falls on the consumers of a product. That, no doubt, is true; but it must be remembered that, if an article that is advertised is a great deal cheaper than its alternatives, the public is getting it cheaper because it is advertised. The cost of advertising is less than the cheapening of the article caused by its larger output and market. There is no doubt that advertising plays a very important part in maintaining competition in the modern world.

Of course, advertising has its abuses like everything else but the fact that it can have abuses is no reason to abolish it. The Press has its abuses; the cinema has its abuses; sound broadcasting has its abuses, but they are not abolished on that account. After all, everybody accepts advertising in the Press. Even the very highest quality newspapers carry a great amount of advertisements. They could not exist without them. Why there should be such an outcry about advertising on television, by people who take it as a matter of course in newspapers, has always puzzled me.

Of course, I freely admit that, if newspapers were owned by advertisers, the situation would be entirely different. That is why I am in favour of the proposal in the Bill, rather than that of the Television Commission that television should be in the hands of commercial interests. The reason advertising in the Press does more good than harm is that it is only a small part of the total space in newspapers. The newspaper's main function is still to give news and to educate opinion. Advertising enables newspapers to pay their way and to perform their other functions. The greatest newspapers in the world would not be able to keep alive to-day if it were not for their advertising revenues, and everybody would have to agree that, if the great newspapers in the world all went bankrupt, the results would politically be disastrous—so, advertising in its right place, properly controlled, can play an important part. That is true of television and sound broadcasting just as much as it is of the Press.

So far I have been talking rather in general terms, and I think it is against that background that we should approach the examination of this Bill. We should ask ourselves how far this Bill promises to give the benefits of television and to avoid the abuses. In the first place, I think the Bill is right in trusting television to a public authority. To make it merely part of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs would be putting it largely under direct Government control. The Minister's speech was very interesting on that point. He indicated that the experience of this country was that sound broadcasting had to be delegated more and more to an independent authority. If that is so in the case of sound broadcasting, it is equally true of television.

On the other hand, as I have said already, I do not think that television should be handed over to commercial interests any more than broadcasting. It is important that the material presented to people over the air should not be entirely in the hands of commercial interests because it has immense value for good and evil. Therefore, I think that even the strongest believer in private enterprise will agree there are certain monopoly services—one being television—which cannot be safely trusted merely to the profit motive.

Therefore, I think the main scheme of the Bill, which is something between a Government Department and a mere commercial interest, is rightly conceived. If that general principle is adopted, why should we not do what the Bill proposes to do—link it up with Radio Eireann? The record of Radio Eireann of public service has been a very good one. It has its critics; but on the whole people must agree that Radio Eireann has done a very good job of work, and working under great difficulties, it has done its job very well. It is only right that we in the Seanad, at this stage when Radio Eireann, in its present form, is coming to an end, should pay tribute to the people who operated it in the early days. We should pay tribute to the consultative committee and to the Director who has, in the general opinion, raised the standard of Radio Éireann so much in recent years.

The suggestion of the Committee that there should be two authorities is unrealistic. The market here is small. It is not big enough for two authorities competing with each other. Therefore, we must agree in a general way that the scheme set up by the Bill is suitable for the circumstances of this country. The whole success of this Authority will, of course, depend on the personnel of the Authority and I should like to offer a general criticism on that matter. I should like to suggest that the Authority is too big, that a small body would do the work better. The Radio Éireann Advisory Committee consists of five and I really cannot see any reason for raising the numbers in the Authority.

The argument that different interests should be represented on the Authority is an argument which I refuse to accept. There is a growing practice now—and it is fallacious—that there should be a representative of different interests on public boards. To do that simply gives rise to the type of controversy one hears in a debating society and which leads to conflict or compromise. The people we want on a committee of this kind are not the interested persons—persons who represent, let us say, employers, trade unions, agriculture or any other interest—but experts who have a special knowledge of these matters. There are certain people who have a special knowledge of more than one kind. There are people in the present Radio Éireann Committee who have an expert knowledge of several different walks of life. They have an expert knowledge of academic matters and business matters and other matters as well.

Therefore, I really do not think it necessary to have nine people on the Board. There should be a small board, not representative in the sense of representing conflicting interests, but representative in the sense of having an expert knowledge of the various matters that arise.

Furthermore, I think that the relations between the Minister and the Authority and the Director-General are left rather vague in the Bill. I agree with Senator Hayes in that regard. I do not want to repeat what he said, but I believe that Section 31 is rather difficult to reconcile with the pretended independence of the Authority. The Minister seems to have very considerable power. I should like him to reconsider this matter as the Bill has been criticised on the ground that it is rather difficult to see who holds the ultimate powers under Section 31. Is it the Authority? Is it the Director-General or is it the Minister? It seems to me that there is room for a considerable amount of conflict. There are powers there of direction which may lead to a great deal of conflict.

When we discuss the programmes, we really cannot do more than speculate regarding the future. What money will be available and, therefore, what programmes will be possible? The Bill gives the Authority very wide discretion which is the right thing to do, and the Authority will have to be guided by cultural considerations and financial considerations. Live programmes are, of course, the most desirable from the cultural point of view. If we wish to put across to viewers, in or outside the country, the picture of Irish culture and civilisation, live programmes are very desirable, but one must admit that live programmes are exceedingly expensive. Perhaps in the early days the programmes will be of actual outside events: such things as country sports and things of that kind that will be comparatively cheap compared with programmes which are prepared in the studio.

There is a very wide field in Ireland for live programmes of that kind, of actual events, concerned with life in the different parts of the country, for example, live programmes of markets and fairs in different counties. There is a very considerable field which would be informative to people and which would put across the Irish mode of life to viewers. Of course a certain amount of studio programmes is very desirable but we must admit it is expensive. With regard to the non-live programmes we shall have to rely on a certain amount of imported material and I cannot see any objection to that. Really, the Bill will reduce the amount of imported material. Irish television viewers now have all sorts and conditions of imported material thrown at them holus bolus, good, bad and indifferent. The imported material which will be relayed by the Authority will be desirable as there will be a considerable amount of skilled selection. Therefore the outside material we may expect from the Irish station will probably be better than what Irish viewers are now getting from the only stations from which they can get material.

The relation between cultural and commercial broadcasting will depend largely on financial considerations. It will depend on the costs of production of live-broadcasts. It will depend on the licence revenue and on the amount of advertising revenue. We have to admit that the licence revenue will depend on the number of sets and that the number of sets will depend largely on the popularity of the programmes. Therefore, it will be necessary for the Authority, outside the commercial field, to give the public what they want rather than what is good for them. That is one of the great difficulties in arranging broadcasting programmes.

The public are not all highbrow. They have not all very highly educated tastes in music, art and literature. If they get nothing but very highbrow lectures, and so on, they will simply switch off and ultimately sell their sets. The BBC has effected a compromise in this matter, because it is dealing with a very large market, by making the popular programmes pay for the highbrow programmes on the Third Programme. No doubt the Irish Authority will try to cater to some extent for minority interests. No doubt they will try to cater for the more cultured listeners' tastes but at the same time, it is for the masses that they must cater and, unless the average viewer is satisfied, he will not continue to pay his licence fee and the whole financial basis of the scheme will break down.

It is important there should be as many sets as possible in the country because, the greater the revenue from licence fees, the less the amount that will have to be collected from advertisers. Therefore, the cultural value depends very largely on the number of sets and on the type of material provided. Of course, everybody agrees that a certain amount of advertising material will have to be included. In that connection, the Bill very wisely safeguards the position. Section 20 safeguards the country against anything in the nature of undesirable advertising. The Authority will have to be trusted to use its judgment in that respect.

Of course, the whole of the finances are very experimental. We all know that. I do not think we should assume that the service will be a burden on the country. The capital advances are repayable under Section 23. The grant of £500,000 under Section 22 is not specifically for television. As far as I understand, speaking subject to correction, Radio Éireann would be receiving some similar sum, even if this Bill never came into operation. The licence fees should produce considerable revenue. More and more people in every country are getting television sets. The advertising revenue should also be considerable.

I had not realised until I heard the Minister's speech that the television service will be accepting foreign advertisements. That, I am sure, is a good thing to do because the number of Irish firms who could afford to pay advertising rates is necessarily limited. I cannot see from a national point of view any possible objection to foreign advertisers on Irish television because, night after night, people are looking at Independent Television from England, getting advertisements, perfectly harmless advertisements that certainly do not do them any harm, even if they do not do them any good. I do not believe the foreign advertisements we would get on our own television would weaken the spirit of independence of the people in the slightest degree.

I was very much impressed by one remark the Minister made, namely that the fact that so many outsiders wanted to get hold of the service shows that it can be made profitable. We do not know the particulars because the tenders have all been in confidence, but we know from the Report of the Commission that a number of wealthy commercial people thought that, if they had the monopoly of Irish television, they could make a profit out of it—and they would not have the licence fees. If companies of that kind, working, as was postulated in the terms of reference of the Commission, under some sort of public control, could make a profit out of Irish television without enjoying the licence fees, I do not see why Radio Eireann should not make a profit as well. That remains to be seen. There is always an element of doubt in these matters which can be resolved only by experiment.

The Bill is experimental. I think the Oireachtas and the people of the country and the Press should give it every chance of success. If this experiment is started, we should try to make it a success. Every effort should be made to encourage it, to support it and not unduly to criticise it. If it fails, if it falls into hopeless financial difficulties, we are faced with a very cruel dilemma. Either it becomes a burden on the taxpayer, which the taxpayer can ill afford in present conditions, or it will have to be sold to some of the commercial interests who have already been rejected.

I certainly should not like to see the Irish television service the subject of a take-over bid. We then would have all the disadvantages of commercial television without any hope of ever getting any alternative system. The success of the experiment depends very largely on the personnel of the Authority. The Minister has the very grave responsibility of appointing the members of the Authority. I think the number is too large. However, whatever the number is, the personnel of the Authority is the central hub of the success or failure of this Bill. He has a similar responsibility in regard to the personality of the Director-General. A great deal will depend on the personalities on the Authority and on the person who is appointed Director-General, and, as I said, on the relations between the Director-General and the Authority and the Minister.

Having spoken, perhaps at too great a length, I shall end by saying I approve of the Bill in general and hope the new Television Authority will be a great success.

Senator O'Brien put his finger on the problem when he insisted that we must face realities and pointed out that the question now was not whether or not we should have a television service but that the day has come. It is a universal medium of entertainment, education and communication. Unless we are to remain the one isolated spot in the whole world not keeping abreast of the times, we must have it and it is not before its time.

I am convinced that the country as a whole welcomes the Government's decision not to hand over this television service to commercial interests and also welcomes the proposals advanced by the Government to have sound and visual broadcasting under one Authority. There is no doubt that, as the Minister pointed out, our experience of semi-State concerns in this country during the past 25 or 30 years has shown this method of doing things to be very effective. It is a method which has delivered the goods, and delivered them in no uncertain manner, as witness electricity supply, air transport and fuel. We must, in this new departure, get the very best and most modern equipment, and we must solve the problem of Twenty Six County coverage as rapidly as possible. We must go further than that but before dealing with that aspect of it, I should like to make reference to a point mentioned by the Minister in his introductory remarks.

Everybody knows that our sound transmitter from Radio Eireann cannot be heard in many parts of the country, let alone in many parts of Great Britain where our exiles are congregated in great numbers. I cannot understand why no really determined steps were taken to solve this problem in the past. I know an answer was given but I am not satisfied that something more could not have been done to find a solution particularly when any radio listener knows that medium wave transmitters all over Europe, from Berlin to Budapest and from Stockholm to Rome, give excellent reception in this country, particularly at night. Apart from that, low-powered transmitters operated by the American Forces network in Germany give excellent reception in the early morning and at night. Anyone who has listened regularly to Radio Eireann must have heard the recent series of broadcasts on the islands around our coasts and must have been struck by a pathetic statement made by a lady living in Hare Island off the coast of West Cork during the transmission relating to that island, that although her words would go out from Radio Eireann, it was doubtful whether they would be heard in Hare Island because there they could not get Radio Eireann after 8 p.m. Reception was usually poor; after 8 p.m. it faded out completely. Those people, having to rely on Radio Eireann as their constant cultural and entertainment link with the mainland, feel very badly about it, but they are not the only ones.

I hope that when this new Radio Éireann goes into action, it will have under this Bill the authority, and I take it that it will, to send one or more of its members to international telecommunications conferences, one or more of its members who are determined to get results. I am not in any way questioning the ability or the earnestness of the Post Office officials who attended conferences in the past but the fact remains that we do not seem to have got anywhere in trying to get either suitable wavelengths or sufficient power for the transmitters we have. When you can hear medium wave transmitters on low power all over Europe and you cannot even hear the Radio Éireann 100 kilowatt transmitter here, something is wrong.

If it is the frequencies that cause this situation, I cannot understand why, at conference after conference, we are relegated to the nether regions and every other country is able to secure a satisfactory solution for its frequency problems. If the sound situation has remained in such a state during these years, the new television and radio Authority must decide from the very start, that whatever engineering problems are involved or whatever steps have to be taken in regard to securing the most modern and up-to-date equipment, the widest possible coverage will be given and that any problems of transmission that confront us will be solved either by our own engineers or by the Authority bringing in the best engineers it can get from any part of the world.

As the Minister said, the new Authority will have to set its sights very high because of the existing competition for viewers from the British broadcasting service and from Ulster television. I agree with Senator O'Brien that it will have to be very selective in its choice of outside material because it will have to rely on much of it for a start. I was very glad to hear the Minister push aside some of the taboos which have come to be current in the minds of certain people in this country in regard to what are described as outside "canned" programmes.

One thing, however, strikes me, in regard to the provision of the new service. If we have to compete with the B.B.C. and U.T.V. in regard to anything on the news front, we must overcome and overcome rapidly, before the transmitter goes into action, the difficulty that exists of processing films taken in Ireland. It is very little use if a news bulletin goes on the air from Irish television and gives a newsreel for a sporting event in Dublin a week after it takes place. Steps must be taken to ensure that films taken by the Irish television camera men will not be delayed for a week because they have to be sent to England for processing. We have now a magnificent, up-to-date studio in Ireland which should be encouraged to provide laboratory facilities and to go into this business of processing films so that there will be an up-to-date and on-the-spot newsreel which will compete with any foreign news service that viewers may be able to obtain. If we do not do that, our news will be stale and our television news service will be a laughing stock.

Another and very important aspect is that at the moment we are going in for black and white television while coloured television is just around the corner. It is being rapidly developed, and improved technical processes in the United States and in the Soviet Union are expected within three or four years to make it no more expensive than black and white television. This radio and television Authority of ours must watch these developments carefully and must keep abreast of current trends. We do not want to wait as long for colour television as we had to wait for the black and white.

I am perturbed also in regard to the lines system we are to operate. As far as I can make out, from figures obtained from various sources in advertising circles, there are approximately from 35,000 to 40,000 sets operating on the British system of the 405 line in the Dublin area and in North Leinster. These are able to get consistently good quality reception from the B.B.C. and from Ulster Television.

Outside this Dublin-North Leinster area, there are many thousands of other sets but reception is problematical and undependable. In order to ensure that the advertisers whom we expect to supply quite a proportion of our revenue will get the full benefit of this market in Dublin and North Leinster which is immediately available with good reception from the area in the north, we must operate on the 405 line system. Otherwise, we shall be trying to sell space to advertisers with no viewers to get the benefit of the thing. If this were not so, however, I feel, from what I have read and from what I have heard, that we would operate on the 625 line system which is used by most, if not all, countries in Europe outside the B.B.C. and which is certainly being adopted by practically every country which has recently established a modern television service.

Granted that we have had long experience through the B.B.C. of the 405 line system which has been about 24 years in operation and which has proved, generally speaking, satisfactory, but it does not follow that because it has been 24 years in operation and because the B.B.C. and Ulster Television use it, it is the last word in technical perfection.

Another item also that must be remembered in this connection is that the B.B.C. which is such a highly efficient and highly organised modern broadcasting and television service, may come to the conclusion that they should switch over to the new and more modern 625 line system. They might do it in slow stages undoubtedly. We should be on the look-out for any move in that direction.

All that I have read and heard and, in one instance, seen indicates that this 625 line system is a better method of getting a clearer and more definitive picture. I understand also that it is more readily adaptable to modern development trends, for example, the matter to which I referred earlier, the provision of colour television. We must bear in mind that in the United States at the present moment much larger screens are being used and that fashion will soon spread to Europe and, when that comes, it is said by those who understand those problems better than I do that the 625 line system is much more adaptable for larger wall screens than the present system on which we operate.

There is a possibility, however—I discussed this with an engineer who seems to think it is feasible—that we could operate a dual transmission on the 405 and the 625 line systems, that it is technically possible to do so. If that is so, if it can be done, there is no reason why our main transmission should not be on the 625 line system with a supplementary transmission for the Dublin and North Leinster area on the present 405 method. That is to make sure that we shall not lose the audience which takes in 405 so long as the B.B.C. and Ulster Television continue to use that system.

I want to emphasise, however, that whatever we do, we must get into the Six County area and in order to do that, at present anyhow, we have to use the 405 line system. I want to emphasise that our television service, however it is done, whether by booster or repeater stations or whatever technical means are necessary, must be built in such a way that the people in the Six Counties will get the same clear and consistent reception of Irish television as we get here of the B.B.C. and the Ulster Television Authority transmissions. I see no reason why that cannot be done.

Coming to the Bill itself, I should like to return to something which I believe to be of vital importance and to draw the attention of the Authority and of the Government to it. Section 16 (2) (a) gives the Television Authority power to establish, maintain and operate broadcasting stations, but under subsection (3) (a) the Minister's licence is required to implement that paragraph. In other words, the Authority could not do what I should hope it would do, that is, to restore the project for a shortwave transmitter.

We are the only small nation in Europe—in fact, we are about one of the few nations in the world—who seem to have ignored completely the possibilities of shortwave radio. Every up-to-date nation which is trying to grab the tourist trade has used shortwave communication for that purpose and used it very effectively. Any of us who take the trouble to run round the shortwave band at night will find a non-stop succession of stations from Tokio to Oslo using the English language to insist that the tourist attractions of their own countries are unrivalled and unexcelled. Apart altogether from the tourist end of the business, I should hope that consideration would be given to the many other cogent reasons why the possibility of operating a shortwave broadcasting system should be examined as sympathetically as possible by the Authority.

I notice that in Section 16 the Authority is given power to publish a radio journal. I have felt for years that this was a great want in the sound broadcasting service and I believe that a radio journal under the auspices of the Authority—a first-class production, of course—would be not only a great help but a great advantage to both sound and television broadcasting in this country. Now that we are making a new departure, I do not think that the provision of radio information and reproduction of radio talks and lectures which are considered to be valuable should be left to private commercial interests, as is the situation at present.

Section 17 deals with the national aims. Senator Hayes referred to the necessity of some member of the broadcasting and television Authority having a real knowledge of the Irish language, cultural background and everything else. I agree entirely with him. I am convinced that the members of this new Authority should, undoubtedly, be persons who have a genuine interest in ensuring that our national culture and national language will get the pride of place which, undoubtedly, they must get if the television service is to fulfil the aim laid down in Section 17.

Senator Hayes also referred to the great difficulty of providing live programmes. In that connection, I must return to the subject of Radio Eireann, sound, and express the hope that when the Director-General is appointed and the system gets into operation, we shall not have the sort of botún which Radio Eireann made a couple of Sundays ago when, at 3.30 in the afternoon, the first really modern play in Irish dealing with a modern live subject, by Seamus O'Neill, was given its first hearing, while at the peak listening period that night, at 8 p.m., a 35-year old play by Edgar Wallace received the attention of the biggest radio audience that we can muster at any time of day. I hope also that somebody connected with the new Authority or programme-planning will read the debate in the Seanad and will note the name of the play to which I refer—An tSiúr Pól—and that arrangements will be made to have it televised as one of the live broadcasts, which not alone can be done without any great expenditure but which, in my opinion, would do more to interest young people in the Irish language and in the fact that there are modern plays in Irish dealing with topical subjects which should command their attention and which it would repay them to read or to view.

Senator Hayes was quite right also when he said that live broadcasts in Irish should be first-class. It will take a lot of doing to ensure that the programmes in the Irish language maintain a very high standard. For the sake of putting on something in Irish to fit in an amount of time and to show that something is being done, there may be a temptation to descend to mediocrity. I hope the temptation will be resisted and that if first-class, topnotch programmes cannot be put on in the Irish language, they will not be put on at all just for the sake of showing that something is being done.

Section 18, subsection (2), permits political broadcasts. I must pay tribute in that respect to Radio Eireann for having broadened its outlook considerably in recent years and for having launched forth into the stormy sea of controversial topics in its round table discussions and, in fact, in its political forums. There was only one defect that I saw, that is, that they confined most of these controversial topics and political discussions to people in public life with well-known names. I should hope that the television Authority will take advantage of this section to continue to educate our people in modern ideas of government, the problems which affect every modern Government and the problems which cause international tension, in the way in which Radio Eireann has been fairly successfully trying to do for some years past. I should also hope that the circle of participants will be considerably widened and that the Authority will not depend on well-known names or prominent political personalities but will seek out young people particularly, ordinary people with ideas, and get them around the table and let them give their views on every question which affects our modern life and which affects the future of our country.

In Section 20, there is provision to encourage the use of Irish by advertisers. The Minister referred to the possibility of securing foreign advertising also. I hope that subsection 5 (a) and (b) will result in a considerable improvement in the use of Irish as compared with the advantage taken of a concession by sponsors of radio programmes who seem to think that a couple of words of Irish at the beginning or the end or stuck in in the middle is a great contribution to the language. While it may secure them whatever concession is available, it certainly is of no great advantage to the Irish language or to the engendering of interest in it. I hope that the subsection, when it comes to be operated, will not result in that situation but that genuine programmes in the Irish language will result from the power which the Authority is now being given to give concessions to advertisers. I am convinced that if we do get a fair share of foreign advertising, foreign advertisers will be just as inclined to use the Irish language as some of our home advertisers have been in the past, and in fact, will be more inclined to do so.

A very interesting provision is the appointment of advisory committees, under Section 21. It is an excellent provision but I do not think it goes far enough to meet the ideas I had. The Minister recalled in his introductory statement that his predecessor of 1953, when introducing the new departure at that time, asked Deputies who were making complaints about Radio Éireann week after week in the Dáil to address their inquiries to the Director of Broadcasting. That is all right, but it does not seem to have achieved its purpose or to have allayed public annoyance and discontent with the broadcasting service. Perhaps the people who make these complaints do not know what they are talking about. Perhaps their complaints are based on complete ignorance or lack of correct information. In any event, they do not seem to be satisfied, as witnessed by the many letters which appear in the columns of certain papers which encourage controversial correspondence of that nature.

I should like to see a committee set up—an advisory committee, if you like. My idea of a committee would be one composed of people experienced in entertainment, education and public affairs. It would serve as a watchdog for the public. It could receive complaints about television and sound broadcasting and examine them to see whether there was anything in them before bothering the Director and the people responsible in Radio Éireann. If there was anything in these complaints, the committee would be an effective instrument in seeing that a remedy was found. In saying that, I am not attempting to cast any reflection on the way in which complaints have been handled up to now.

From my own experience I know that many a time, listening to the radio and finding fault with the programmes, feeling that such a thing was not done in the right way, that production was bad or that the hour selected was unsuitable, I would have liked to blow off steam to somebody, but short of sitting down and writing a long letter to the Director, there was no way open to me. If there were a committee of this nature that the public could approach to blow off steam and to get an explanation of their grievances, I think it would do a lot to win whatever public support or co-operation may be required in this new departure.

The committee, I might add, should furnish a report to the public once a year on what it has done during the year, should state the volume of complaints it received and the number found to be genuine after examination and investigation. The committee could go further. It could make recommendations to the Director concerning programmes on the basis of what it learned from the people who communicated with it. A body of men who were, as I said, experienced in the educational, entertainment and communications worlds would not act irresponsibly. I just throw out that suggestion for consideration by the Minister and those concerned.

In Section 24 of the Bill, we have the provision that the radio and television service must become self-supporting as rapidly as possible. The State is giving generous assistance to get this service going and that ought to enable the Authority to get off to a good start. I agree with Senator O'Brien that the fact that so many outside private commercial interests were anxious to secure control of the Irish television service and apparently thought it could be made a commercial proposition should leave no doubt in our minds that in due course our radio and television service will achieve the aims set out in Section 24.

The Minister made reference to the provision in Part II of the Schedule with regard to electrical interference. For many years people have been complaining about interference with sound broadcasting reception. It is very important, particularly from the point of view of television, that something should be done about interference. I was glad to note that the Minister hopes this problem will be tackled from the production end. I hope that, as a consequence of the action indicated in the Bill, care will be taken to deal with interference. I hope that all manufacturers will fit suppressors when producing electrical appliances and that those who have them will be compelled to fit suppressors on them.

Not on the sets.

We must not forget also that serious interference from motor cars has grown up in this area of good television reception. I do not know how that can be dealt with, but some steps will have to be taken to ensure that the licence holders get satisfactory reception of our own stations. I take it that it is not beyond the bounds of engineering ability to make some recommendations that would solve that problem.

Senator O'Brien also raised a subject which is very dear to my heart— the question of the educational value of television. For many years I have pleaded for a schools programme on Radio Éireann but without results. We must be the only country that cannot see the advantages of such a programme. I hope that from the start the authorities will get down to planning a schools programme and will be ready, in co-operation with the Minister for Education, to present it over the air when the first transmission goes out. A television schools programme would be no novelty. It would be a great and effective tool in the sphere of education in this country and a great help also in the advancement of the cause of the revival of the Irish language.

There may be cynics and sceptics who will sneer at the idea that we should devote to education any of the little time which probably will be available in the television service. I should like to recount what has happened in other places which are up-to-date and from which we could learn. As Professor O'Brien remarked, television educational facilities have grown up and are appreciated in other countries, and I hope that from the start of our service the advantage of those facilities will be appreciated.

In the United States there are two such programmes for adults. The youth may view them, too, if they want to, but it means early rising because they go on the air from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. One of them is called "Continental Classroom" and it goes out over the N.B.C. network. It is transmitted by 150 stations and it has over 500,000 registered students. As Senator O'Brien mentioned a few of the classes that might benefit, it is interesting to learn that those who have registered for this early morning television programme include housewives, hospital patients and day workers from all walks of life. That programme has been running for two years; has attracted students numbering 500,000 who have followed the course, and has proved a most effective tool in giving to adults, who may not have had the opportunities of getting the first class teachers which television is able to provide, the chance which they may have missed because of home difficulties, lack of money or lack of school facilities in their area. That is one successful programme which is running over the N.B.C. for two years. We could learn a lot from it.

The second one is also an early morning programme presented by the University of New York which goes out over the Columbia Broadcasting System in New York State and adjacent areas. It has 100,000 registered students and runs from 6.30 a.m. to 7.30 a.m. and the courses include physics, sociology, history and the fine arts. Surely in this country which prides itself on being the home of scholars, we should devote some thought to the possibility not alone of using television for school broadcasts but also for educational courses for adults, whether in the early morning or late at night. We should not let the opportunity afforded by a modern television service slip by without using it to the greatest degree possible for improving the education of our people.

It is interesting to note the comment of the New York Times—a reputable newspaper—on this. It says: “Television teaching is the fastest growing development in the history of American education.” We can learn a lot from it because at the present moment in the primary schools throughout the United States of America over 1,000,000 children are already getting instruction by television and it has proved effective. It has proved workable and has been received with great acclamation by parents and teachers, particularly in outlying districts far removed from cities and towns throughout that vast country.

In Great Britain and most other European countries, school programmes form an important part not alone of television but of sound radio. We are one of the few countries that do not seem to have taken the matter seriously. Italy, for instance, is an outstanding example of a country where, with the co-operation of the Department of Education and with the assistance of text books, a course of television instruction has been successfully operated. It has just finished its first year of operation. It used the curriculum which is used in Italian vocational schools for first year vocational students. The course is intended to last three years and an interesting aspect of it is that registered students who complete that course may sit for the State examinations which are based on the television programme. The teachers were chosen by the Ministry of Public Instruction and the Ministry also appointed an inspector who supervised the course.

As I said, special text books were issued which gave a summary of each lesson, so that even if a student found that it was not possible to follow a lesson, the summary of that lesson would enable him to keep up with the course. I see no reason why we could not do something similar and I urge, as strongly as I can, that the Television Authority, at the earliest possible moment, should give attention to this all-important matter of the use of television for education.

Senator Hayes insisted that the principal thing which struck him was the extreme vagueness of the Bill. I think that in the 36 sections and the two Schedules, there is very little vagueness. The Bill covers practically everything that could be covered and I cannot see how anyone could describe it in that fashion. Senator Hayes had his doubts about the provision which gives the Minister authority to stop a broadcast that might be harmful, for instance, in our relations with other countries. He seemed to think that no such thing would happen and that any responsible body of men charged with the supervision of television would ensure that it could not happen. But Senator Hayes, I am sure, knows that in other countries it actually did happen, even where broadcasting and television have been brought to a high degree of efficiency. In the United States, there were television telecasts and sound broadcasts over the shortwaves which nearly created international crises for the United States a couple of years ago. Some time ago, a similar thing occurred in France. It could happen here and such provision to ensure that nothing will go over the air which might damage our relations with foreign countries, and for other reasons, is a great safeguard and a proper part of the Bill.

The Minister in his introductory speech referred—as a solution to the difficulty of hearing Radio Eireann in some parts of the country—to the possibility of organising a V.H.F. network. I should like him to indicate whether that is actually under consideration, or whether any steps have been taken to organise such a network, or whether the Television and Radio Authority will do something about it when they commence operations.

The Minister indicated that there would be four other stations outside Dublin and I take it these will be booster or repeater stations. I should like to emphasise again what I said at the beginning: no matter how many stations it takes, no matter how many boosters or repeaters there are, mountains will interfere and if reception cannot be ensured, I feel that the Authority must find ways and means to ensure coverage because with the competition from the B.B.C. and U.T.V., and with the widespread reception of those programmes in Dublin and North Leinster, and many other parts of the country at certain hours, a completely foreign culture is being transmitted into the homes of our people. While I was enthralled by Senator Hayes's story of the return, through television, of the old seanacaí and the people sitting around the fire listening to his tales, I am afraid that the B.B.C. and U.T.V. with their slick coverage of modern events and with their magnificent presentation of drama and opera- even allowing for a certain deterioration in standards in other aspects of their transmission—would prove very large and very hard competitors to beat if we do not ensure that Irish television is of the very highest standard and the very highest quality with excellent reception in every part of the Twenty-Six Counties.

This is a good Bill. Its provisions show that we have grown up. The Director-General and the Authority can be assured of the good wishes, the goodwill and the co-operation of every section of the community when they commence their very formidable task. All I can say is: "Rath Dé ar an obair".

I find a good deal of what Senator Ó Maoláin has said very attractive. His remarks show that he is a very enthusiastic listener. I assume he has also watched television. I believe he has learned a great deal from what he has both seen and heard. I hope he will have more influence with the Minister in the future than he has had in the past. Indeed I can think of no one more fitted for one of the important posts under this new development. He seems to have the right approach.

This Bill must get a guarded welcome; when I say "guarded" I mean cautious. We are dealing with something which is unpredictable in its effects. It is not measurable in its results. We must, therefore, be hesitant. It is a matter for congratulation that after 23 years the umbilical cord which joined the broadcasting service to a Government Department has at last been severed. Henceforth, the child will probably be much healthier and thrive because of a very certain measure of independence.

Before dealing with T.V., it is only right that we should for a few moments examine what Radio Eireann has been doing. Such an examination should prove useful. The great weakness inherent in Radio Eireann has been that the broadcasting hours are too few. Those responsible have been trying to put a quart into a pint pot of time. The main criticism I have always had to make has been that the programmes tend to be very "bitty"; one gets a little bit of the programme devoted to music, another little bit to farmers and their work, another little bit to the language, and another little bit to drama. Only on Sunday night can one get a programme up to a certain standard. On week nights it is a quarter of an hour of this and half an hour of that. The result is one does not switch on the station unless there is some item of specific importance to oneself.

The habit of tuning in is important. That habit, if acquired, can be broken by the very "bittiness" in the composition of our programmes. I do not impute any blame for that. I realise that it is difficult to cater for all the different tastes. The broadcasting hours, however, should be lengthened so that there would be longer programmes. If necessary, let us use the stations to run programmes concurrently, as the British do quite effectively. An Englishman can listen to good music every day from the early afternoon until midnight; he can switch from one programme to the other. Here what is one man's meat may be another man's poison and nobody is really pleased in the end.

The quality of the programmes on Radio Eireann in recent years has been satisfactorily high and reasonably good. The standard of music has improved. Here I must pay tribute to the Department for its co-operation and its willingness, in face of criticism, to establish a permanent radio quartette. Chamber music is not everybody's taste, but the establishment of that quartette will undoubtedly bear fruit. Ten years ago you would not find 25 people prepared to listen to chamber music in Cork. On the last occasion on which I attended a concert there, given by this quartette, the hall was full. That is the sort of enterprise which will add up ultimately in other ways.

There is a need to devote more time to particular subjects. That need cannot be met on the three- or four-hour nightly programme which Radio Eireann puts on now. Very noteworthy achievements have been attained by the B.B.C. in sound broadcasting. No doubt Senator Ó Maoláin agrees with me on that. I should like him to add his weight to my voice when I suggest that there should be no afternoon break between 3 o'clock and 5.30 p.m. from Radio Eireann. The service should be continuous from 1 o'clock.

I agree with Senator Ó Maoláin that the publication of a radio programme journal is very important. I spoke about this on several occasions in the other House. It might not be easy to justify such a publication, for a four-hourly sound programme. When we launch into television, I think such a programme publication will be vitally important. The programme could be illustrated with photographs and so forth.

If we are to cater for the islands, I think we should use F.M. output because the quality of H.F. is so very good that I envy the people who live within hearing distance of V.H.F. stations in Great Britain. I have a set and I get really freak reception. When reception is good it is amazing how high the quality is and the extraordinary pleasure one can get just listening to it. I do not agree with what Senator Ó Maoláin said in relation to short wave. I do not believe anyone listens on short wave now. In fact, the manufacture of short wave sets has ceased. Occasionally we get very emasculated news reels. I do wish something could be done about them.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.

When business was suspended, I had finished discussing the Radio Éireann sound service. I had criticised the shortness of the broadcasting hours and what I should call the falling between two stools resulting from trying to cater for too many different tastes in too short a time. This could happen also with television because of our limited resources, although continuous viewing is more likely there because of the novelty attraction of the medium and the fact that the novelty has worn off sound broadcasting so that people switch off readily, or if the programmes are too brief and inconsiderable they do not even switch on.

I come from a part of the country which has not had the good or the ill fortune, as the case may be, to be within range of television. From what I have seen of it in Dublin and around the north-eastern parts of the country, I believe it is a ready platform for the meretricious, but it is also a challenge and an opportunity for better things to establish their appeal. That need not be a pious hope if we are lucky in the first council set up by the Minister.

Our film industry could be developed in relation to television and our traditional skill in the theatre could, through it, become a national asset, even on economic terms. I have been hearing ever since I was a boy about the high quality of Irish conversation and Senator Hayes's picture of the seanachaí on the television screen reminded me of that. However, I do think it important to have long hours of telecasting and reasonably long items in the programme.

The Minister tells us to-night that we shall be importing some of the material for our programmes and, on the whole, that is probably fair because those who live near the north will have a choice between tuning in to the B.B.C. and the Irish station. They will probably get the best or the worst of both worlds.

I shall be very interested in how we handle our political broadcasts. They will add a new terror to public life, a terror not altogether confined to the performer. At any rate, the full truth will be in the market place and maybe it will have good results and prove that mediocre standards will not be enough for representatives in the future.

I shall touch now on something that will be very controversial, that is, how the Irish language will be used. We all agree that a kind of national stocktaking is proceeding in that connection at the moment. I want to remind Senators of the ease with which radio and television sets can be switched on and off. If the language is imposed excessively, viewers will switch off and advertisers will very shyly withdraw. It is very important that we should establish a reliable listener and viewer research organisation. If that is done you will get the truth about this matter—that is if you are courageous enough to ask the right questions.

I am very glad Senator Ó Maoláin raised the matter of the adoption of the 405-line screen. It seems to be mad not to start right away with the 625 screen. I know what the British would do if they were starting all over again. They are stuck with some millions of receivers. We have only 35,000 sets. We are really at the beginning. We are adopting a method that is technically 25 years out of date and we have no chance of proceeding on the basis of the 405 screen to colour television about which the leader of the Opposition spoke. We should bite this cherry now even if we have to do it on the basis of compensation for alteration. We should send out and receive on the most advanced system and that is the 625 system.

If our stock of sets grows to 100,000 we shall make it impossible ever to make the change. We shall never have a better chance than we have now. We shall never be able to make available continental tapes for broadcasting purposes. We shall be doing something which British radio manufacturers have been begging Governments to do for the past ten years. Manufacturers are being prevented from getting an opportunity of going into the production of 625 TV sets for export purposes. This is an opportunity which should not be missed. We are deliberately adopting, that is if the Minister has decided to accept the recommendations of the Commission, a technically dangerous system. I think it is a bad decision.

Generally speaking, the Bill is satisfactory. It will result in staff security and superannuation security for the Radio Éireann services and the radio services generally. The selection of officers of the staff is to be by public competition. We would want to be lucky in this regard because there are no standards. We can only hope that we shall get the best men—men who will have that liveliness and freshness which make for the television character.

I wonder if in the details of the Bill there is any appeal from the Authority regarding the removal from office of an officer? I should like the Minister to comment on that. I should also like the Minister to make sure that we make full use of the committees, particularly in the matter of educational programmes. I agree fully with Senator Ó Maoláin there.

Finally, I do hope for the best in all men. I think it very vital that not alone should we do properly the things that should be done by the Minister when we are selecting the council but that they should appear to be done properly. In other words, this council must be manned without the slightest suspicion of there being any political overweighting.

Let me sum up before I finish. I think this will represent an investment for the Irish people of, perhaps, £7,000,000 or £8,000,000, between the establishment of the station and the purchase of sets. It will mean the continual expenditure of £1,000,000 per year from that on by the Irish people on the provision of programmes. The case that it will not cost the people or the Treasury anything is just fantastic. Every penny for the purchase of this plant, the purchase of sets and the programmes from this on will come out of the pockets of the Irish people. On the basis of making larger expenditure of this kind and a continual expenditure of a very heavy kind, let us not deceive ourselves that anybody is paying for it but ourselves.

It is an expensive luxury and many of us might have hoped that it could be postponed but, as the Minister said, the B.B.C. is forcing the pace with their centres in this country. If we are so afraid of the B.B.C. centres, the adoption of the 405 screen seems to me to be evading the issue and there is a solution. I think it all depends on the quality of the council and the quality of the Director.

I think it important that we should have a listener and viewer research so that we shall get a fairly truthful reaction from the programmes sent out. If I have expressed any doubt about this undertaking, I have also expressed some hope. The confusion in my mind is due to the fact that I am confused about the use to be made of this great sum of money which will be invested in the project. Whatever happens, it will be controversial and, indeed, I hope it will be controversial because if it is not it will be no good.

I am sure every Senator agrees that this Bill is likely to be more important, both for the national morale at home and for our national reputation abroad than perhaps any measure that has come before the House in this session. On that account we, I am sure, are all determined to give it our closest attention. Already some, to my mind, very valuable suggestions have been made. I agree with the general lines of the Bill. The Government have done the right thing in ignoring their commission in this case and I have confidence that the Government will execute their decision fairly and well.

A few details on the Bill deserve some comment. First, I should like to refer to Section 4 which discusses the membership of the Authority. It probably is not necessary at all because the policies of the successive Governments of this country have been remarkably fair and generous in this matter; but I think it should go on the record that someone hoped and, indeed, had confidence that the Government would see to it that there was one member of the religious minority on that board of seven or nine members. In some cases to raise such a sectarian issue, as is this in a sense, would be quite out of place. But I do not think it is so in this case because there are clauses referring to religious broadcasts. There is a very commendable reference to a determination to have strict impartiality. One way of ensuring that would be to have at least one member of the religious minority on the Authority itself.

I should like to say, with reference to that, that it is admirable in a Bill of this kind that the theme of impartiality both in political and religious matters has been made very clear, although indeed it is only in the tradition of our national Governments.

I turn now to Section 12. I am a little puzzled by this. It may simply prove my ignorance. In general, I am strongly in favour of open competition for every post and it seems to me that there is some danger here that, under the terms of this clause, the best man might not be chosen. I expect that there is a good explanation, which I hope the Minister will give later, for restricting open competition in certain circumstances, as laid down here. But I can see certain dangers there and I should like the Minister to reassure me that those dangers are not really substantial.

Section 16 is excellent. It cannot have been easy to draft by the draftsman because it is fairly general in its scope, on the functions of the Authority generally, and I am particularly pleased to see subsection (2) (g) there:

To subscribe to such international associations, and to such educational, musical and dramatic bodies and such other bodies promoting entertainment or culture, as may be conducive to the objects of the Authority;

In other words, this Authority might become a very influential and very beneficial patron of the arts in this country. I am glad to see that it is clearly encouraged to be so under this section.

Again, in relation to paragraph (i) of subsection (2), I should like to express the hope that somewhere, somehow, under that section it might be found possible to build a satisfactory concert hall for our city. Theoretically it could be that the kind of studio which the Television Authority will need could also be suitable for big city concerts, and it probably could be arranged that it would be available at the right time. Though it is not the direct concern of the Minister, he could do a very direct service to the city of Dublin and to the nation if he could stretch a point here and bring it about that we did at last get that concert hall which is so very badly needed.

I should only like to commend the emphasis laid on objectivity and impartiality in Section 18 and I am sure the Government and the Authority will do all they can to substantiate that.

Again, I think subsection (4) of Section 20 is extremely wise:

The Authority shall not accept any advertisement which is directed towards any religious or political end or has any relation to any industrial dispute.

Bills are not often as wise as this Bill. They generally are more cut and dried, generally more pragmatic, shall we say. I suppose some members of the House may say that these are vague terms which can be got around. Yet, I think it is wise to put it in, and I commend the drafting of the Bill in that respect.

Some cause for uneasiness has been found already in our debate and in public opinion throughout the country on Section 31. This is the section which gives great powers to the Minister and a few are perturbed at the hint of censorship here. The Minister referred to it. I quote his words from his opening statement:

The Bill says nothing either about censorship. It is the Government's wish that the Authority should act as its own censor recognising the absolute importance of safeguarding truth and of preserving intact the moral integrity of our people.

I am quite sure he will have the support of not merely 95 per cent. of the population but, I would say, 99 per cent. of the population in that. But I think some fairly large percentage would appeal to him and to the Authority to interpret this at the higher and more intelligent levels of censorship. This is a delicate topic and I shall not pursue it. But there are higher levels and lower levels in censorship and if the wrong kind, the armchair pietistic lay censorship gets a grip of our television entertainment, you might as well throw it out. There are enough intelligent people who understand the intelligent use of censorship and I do not think we shall go astray. But there is the risk that the namby-pamby, silly type will get to work and, if so, it will do untold damage.

In general on the Bill, I was very glad to hear Senator Ó Maoláin, and afterwards Senator Barry, refer to some technical points I had intended to dwell a little on myself. I shall not do so now. But I do insist that this question of the right system, the right kind of screen, the right line system, is of vital importance. Every knowledgeable person I have spoken with has said to me that the 625 screen is the one that should be chosen and that the other indicates a backward-looking policy. Secondly there is this promise, and in another sense menace, of coloured television which is undoubtedly very close. Some people in the B.B.C. told me a few months ago it could, in fact, be put into use almost immediately; it is just a matter of when sets can be prepared and when people will be prepared to buy them. It is going to be a very great shock to us financially, if having established the black and white system we find the world suddenly goes over to colour. I should like to hear from the Minister just what that may amount to in terms of the money charge. Will it cost £1,000,000 or will it cost us £10,000? If it is possible to know, I should like to know.

Another thing I should like to urge is close co-operation—and this seems implicit in the Minister's statement— with neighbouring transmitting authorities, especially with Northern Ireland, because I do think many Senators will agree that many of the Northern Ireland programmes are extraordinarily effective in their national flavour, in their Irish local flavour. They are able to combine vividness with good taste, and those are two qualities which are very hard to combine. So, if we could work closely with the Northern Ireland people in broadcasting programmes of purely Irish flavour, I think it would be very beneficial.

Many other Senators want to speak so I shall be very brief in the rest of what I have to say. But I speak very earnestly when I urge that this is an epoch-making undertaking for Ireland, an epoch-making undertaking for our country. Its success or failure will depend not only on the technical ability of the organisation and on the artistic skill of the performers, but also on the support and co-operation of every citizen in the Republic. The ultimate standards of taste and efficiency will probably be based on what the Irish viewers and listeners demand, so I would appeal to the Minister and to the Authority to take the public into their confidence, as far as possible, and to encourage their active, constructive criticism. Senator Barry very wisely suggested that one of the first branches to set up would be a listener and viewer research bureau, so that the Authority could really know what the people want. Then the Authority could decide should they get it or should they not get it. If the Authority decided they should not get it they should take steps to educate public taste, as it were, so that it might reach a higher standard.

An Irish television transmitting station will have, as early speakers have already said, one great advantage. Probably our greatest artistic talent in this country is dramatic talent. We have world-famous playwrights and distinguished actors, and that is what will succeed most on television. This is a development of what Senator Hayes mentioned, the native storyteller who is both actor and author in himself. I think we have a tremendous opportunity of reviving what the Abbey Theatre did for a while, reviving it not just inside a single city but reviving it for an audience that could consist of the whole world. By relaying our broadcasts, people in China and Peru could enjoy what the Abbey Theatre could only offer to Dublin alone.

I sincerely hope that the whole nation will respond to the opportunity. It is an enterprise fraught with great possibilities of triumph or disaster. Finally, I should like to join Senator O'Brien in his tribute to the remarkably good work Radio Éireann has done over nearly the past 30 years. With limited resources, they really have done the State very good service.

Bille an-thabhactach é seo, an Bille atá rómhainn fé láthair. Rud misniúil don tír seo é agus, mar gheall ar sin, tá súil agam go n-abróidh gach Seanadóir anseo conas a shíleann sé gur cheart go n-abróidh an gléas nua nuair a bheidh sé fé lán tseól.

Tá talamh nua a bhriseadh againn. Tá fód nua le briseadh againn agus tá súil agam gur dtiocfaidh síol maith as an ithir nuair a bheidh sé curtha. Is nuair a bheidh an gléas ag obair a gheobhaimid amach conas tá sé ag dul ar aghaidh agus cad iad na fadhbanna a bheidh le réiteach, agus annsin is féidir linn ath-mheas a dhéanamh ar an rud ar fad.

B'féidir go bhfuil daoine sa tír seo a shíleann nach fiú an méid dá chostas é an Teilifis acht ni aontaím leo sin. Deirim go gcaithfimid bheith ar aon dul leis na tiortha eile a bhfuil an gléas céanna acu. Is fíor nach féidir linn beith scartha ós na rudaí atá ag dul ar aghaidh ar fud an domhain é. Is mór an chéim ar aghaidh í seo agus is dóigh liom gur mór an tionchar a bheidh aige ar an saol sóisialach agus ar an saol cultúra agus ar an gcóras oideachais.

Is ar ghuaille na múinteóirí a thuit an t-ualach go hiomlán cheanna maidir le cúrsaí na Gaeilge agus tá súil agam anois nuair a bheidh an Teilifís ag obair go bhfaighidh na múinteoirí cabhair uaithi agus go gcuirfear cláracha ar bun a bheidh tairbheach do na daoine óga, na daoine go bhfuil roinnt Ghaeilge acu cheana.

Tá sé riachtanach go mbeadh cainteoirí cruinne líofa páirteach sna cláracha teilifíse, na cainteoirí is fearr sa tír. B'fhéidir nach mbeadh gach aon duine aca ina chainteoir dúchais acht mar sin féin ba cheart go mbeadh scoith na teangan ag gach duine acu.

So much has been said on this Bill that there is not very much for me to deal with. I welcome the Bill because I realise its passage and implementation will usher in a new era in the life of this country. The Irish people are to be presented with a powerful medium of entertainment and education which they have never had before. The introduction of television is another milestone in, the development of our country and it is only right and proper that we treat it with the importance it deserves.

Reference has been made to the way in which Radio Eireann has served the Irish people up to now. Certain faults have been found with Radio Eireann no doubt but, by and large, it has served its purpose well. There have been complaints now and again that the programmes put before the Irish people were not up to the mark. Of course, it is easy for the person sitting on the fence to find fault. No doubt it is very difficult for an organisation like Radio Eireann to satisfy all sections of the people and to satisfy all the different tastes in the country.

No doubt the same will be said of television here. There will be people who will say that enough time is not given to such and such a thing, and to such and such another thing, but I am sure that if the right personnel are chosen for the Authority, to be set up under Section 3, they will be able to allocate the time as it should be allocated. Many people have already had experience of television. Here in Dublin and along the eastern coast, they know what it is, but we are now to have our own television service and that is as it should be. I am sure it will be a great medium by which the social, cultural and educational life of the people will be promoted. I also imagine that this new system will have the effect of brightening family life and of keeping the young people away from the cinemas and from the modern dance halls. That would be a good thing.

Reference has been made to the Irish language and to the possible effect, or the possible influence, that television will have on the Irish language movement. I hold that it could be a great asset to the Irish language movement and to our Irish culture, but a lot will depend, as I have said before, on whether the members of the new Authority will themselves be enthusiastic about the language movement and enthusiastic about our Irish culture.

Senator Hayes suggested that at least one of the members—one of the seven or the nine, as the case may be —should be an enthusiastic supporter of the Irish language movement and should be an Irish speaker himself. I would agree with that, but I would go further and say that the majority of them should be of that calibre. After all, we have reached the stage when most of our middle-aged people have a fairly good knowledge of the language. They understand the policy that underlies the movement and they understand its aims and objects. It is only right and proper that the majority of the members of this Authority should have a truly Gaelic outlook and be enthusiastic about the promotion of the Irish language as the spoken medium here.

It was a very wise decision on the part of the Minister and the Government to unite sound broadcasting and television under one Authority, complementary to each other. It would be a very foolish thing to have two Authorities, one in competition with the other, because, after all, it could be said that sound broadcasting and television are part of the same educational policy. They should be on the same plane, and they should move in the same direction. The Government were also wise not to allow television to fall into outside hands or to come under outside control.

Senator Hayes seemed to think that when this Bill becomes law, there will be too much ministerial control. I do not think anything of the kind. The Authority will be an autonomous body and the Director-General, who will be appointed under Section 11, will have responsibility for day to day administration, for the arrangement of the programmes and so forth, but I think it is very proper that the Minister should have an overriding control as regards the policy to be pursued by the Director-General and the Authority. After all, we have had experience of this already. We already have in existence semi-autonomous bodies and there is very little Ministerial interference with them. All that is done is to indicate the Ministerial point of view from time to time as to what the policy should be.

The Minister and the Government must always be responsible for making the necessary finances available. That would be the case with this Authority. There will have to be an initial outlay of £2 million. That is not a large sum considering the importance of television to this country. I do not know how Senator Barry came to the conclusion that it would be necessary to spend £1 million a year after this service will have been established. I imagine that after a few years the television service and sound broadcasting together will pay for themselves.

Senator Hayes referred to what he called "vagueness" in the Bill. I must say I am entirely in disagreement with that point of view. Before I heard the Minister's speech or when I read the Bill myself, I decided that the provisions were very well set forth. Furthermore, an explanatory memorandum was circulated with the Bill and the Minister is to be complimented on that.

Television, if properly utilised in this country, could be a great medium for the promotion of the Irish language and the preservation of our native culture, but this will depend, as I said, on the enthusiasm of the Director-General and on the Authority to be appointed under the Bill when it becomes law. As well as that, I think the Director-General and the members of the Authority should be people of experience and talent themselves, and they should also be imbued with a love for the language and should be prepared to do everything for it.

It was inevitable that at some stage around this time a measure such as the present Bill would be introduced. When the Television Commission started, and when they indicated that there would be a report very quickly, I did not quite see the necessity for all the rush and haste. As a result of reading this Bill and, indeed, the Television Commission's Report, I still do not see the reason for all the haste.

It seems to me that what was thought desirable was to head off people from becoming addicts of B.B.C. and I.T.V. television programmes and to wean them on to Irish television. It seems from the Commission's Report that where it is obvious that the 625 line standard should be adopted, the Commission came down on the side of the 405 line standard. That will not alone encourage and enable present television owners to view British television but it seems it is intended to stimulate viewing of British television by providing our people who would be interested in an Irish television service with an opportunity of picking up British television programmes as well. Therefore, in spite of the fact that there seems to be in the minds of some people extreme haste, I do not think we ought to be unduly hasty or rush legislation which has been described, I think very properly, by a number of Senators as "epoch-making".

The Bill generally seems to be an effort by the Government to shuffle off the responsibility they undoubtedly bear in this matter and, while shuffling off that responsibility, to take good care to retain for themselves a maximum of control consistent with an appearance of independence for the new Television Authority. The Television Commission occupied a good deal of its Report with consideration of the line standard to be adopted. I had not the benefit of a copy of the Minister's speech but I tried to follow him as attentively as I could while making notes. I did not hear from the Minister a reference to any Government decision as to whether the line standard 405 or 625 was to be adopted.

It seems to me that the decision on the line standard to be adopted for the new Irish television service is a major decision and a very serious one for a Government. The Government do not indicate, and do not lay down in this Bill, what the line standard will be. There are 20,000 to 30,000 households in this country with television on the 405 line standard. If the Government decide that the 625 line standard is to be operated by the Television Authority under Section 16, that will incur considerable odium for the Government as far as these owners of television sets are concerned.

Therefore, apparently the device which is being adopted is not to make the decision one of the Government's but rather one of the Authority's. When protests are made afterwards in the Dáil, in the Press and among the public if the line-standard of 625 should be adopted by the Authority, the Government can say: "Well, we have set up a statutory body to deal with these matters. That matter has been decided by the Authority and they are the competent body. We have no function in the matter." On the other hand, if the 405 line standard is adopted by the Television Authority and, in 12 months' time, the British television authorities should decide upon the 625 line standard, the Government are equally happy and can say: "Well, we did not decide on the 405 line standard. It was the Authority."

Whatever happens, the Government will not be blamed. That is one of the reasons for my saying that in this Bill the Government are shuffling off their, responsibility in a matter of major importance for owners of television sets and of considerable importance from the national point of view, because it is estimated by the Television Commission that a sum of £8,000,000 is involved in this and that the vast majority of that money will flow out of the country to Britain and other countries where we will have to buy at least the parts for television sets. According to the Report of the Commission, the number of people who own television sets at present is estimated at between 20,000 and 30,000. As this is a minority, because the Commission also estimated there probably will be 100,000 television sets in operation here within the next few years, one would have thought that the wishes of the 70,000 would have some precedence over the 20,000 or 30,000 and that, as it seems likely the 625-line standard may for all time become the operational basis of television in Britain, the interest of the majority should prevail; but the Minister and the Government have apparently decided to leave that decision to somebody else so that they will not be blamed for it. At this stage, the Government should make up their minds and provide in the Bill what line standard should be used. We should have some more information about it than was given to us in the Minister's speech.

Senator Hayes has stated that the Bill is extremely vague. The Minister's statement today was equally vague. I have a recollection of the debate on the Transport Bill, when Senator Stanford was advocating very strongly that the canals should be maintained by C.I.E., that the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, now the Taoiseach, squelched Senator Stanford, which is not a very easy thing to do, by producing the Report of the Inland Transport Commission, saying: "That is what the Commission recommends" and that was supposed to end everything. Likewise on the Grass Meal Bill we had here in July, when any observations were made from this side of the House as to the feasibility or profitability of resurrecting this grass meal project, the Minister for Industry and Commerce was in the happy position of being able to say: "That is what is recommended by the Committee of Inquiry". That was the end for all of us because the Commission had sat, the Commission had reported and the Commission had spoken.

Today we have here the recommendations of a Commission. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has precious little to say as to why the Government did not accept some of the major recommendations made by that Commission.

That is the Government's privilege.

It is the Government's privilege to reject, but when a commission speaks and it suits the Government, then it is not the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the Transport Bill and it is not the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the Grass Meal Bill, but it is all the authority, impartiality, resolution and judgment of these commissions and committees that are to determine the matter and we should be satisfied with it.

We have here the Report of the Television Commission, which makes certain major recommendations. The Minister, while, paying tribute to the Commission, says they are not to be blamed because their Report was not accepted. Of course, the Report could not be accepted in the light of the fact that the Government had a change of mind as to what was to be done in regard to the financing of a television service; but I am quite certain that the country and this House would be in a much better position to consider this most important matter of a television service, if the Government had permitted the Television Commission even to consider as a possibility what kind of television they would recommend if a limited State subsidy of the kind granted in this Bill were to be forthcoming for a television service. The result is that so far as this Bill is concerned some of the recommendations of the Commission are worthless because they are based upon premises quite different from the basis upon which this Bill is designed. To a Commission which sat and worked so diligently and reported so quickly, the Minister at least might have paid the compliment of saying why it was not found practicable to implement some of their recommendations.

Senator Ó Maoláin rejoiced in the fact that there were 36 sections in this Bill and several schedules and that it ran to 21 pages. Whether a television authority is a corporation sole or whether it has a seal or not is of no consequence whatever as regards the quality of programmes and the impact a television service would make on this country. Whether it can or cannot hold land does not really matter. That is what this Bill is padded out with. The Schedules, which occupy a third of the Bill, deal merely with electro-magnetic interference, citing certain conveyances and so on. That is all padding. The relevant part of the Bill, dealing with the television service, is contained in Sections 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21— that is, about two pages out of 21 or less than 10 per cent. One could nearly ignore the rest of the Bill when one is dealing with the type of service we are seeking to establish for this country. Even in relation to the other parts of the Bill, there is not the clarity nor the precision that, it seems to me, is desirable.

The first recommendation ignored by the Government in this Bill—a recommendation urged strongly in the Report of the Commission—was that the Television Authority should be separate from the present Radio Éireann.

At paragraph 94 of the Report it states:—

The Commission inclines to the view that, in principle, broadcasting in Ireland, whether it take the form of radio or television, should be under the control of a single broadcasting Authority. The Commission is, however, firmly of the opinion that for some years to come it is not only desirable but necessary that Irish television and radio should be controlled by separate and independent bodies.

I understand that the urgency associated with the inauguration of a television service is that we should get the people attuned to Irish television programmes and to viewing Irish television. It is stated by the Commission in its Report that once the habit of viewing certain programmes on television is acquired it is not easily broken and that already the occupants of 20,000 to 30,000 households in this country are viewing British television.

Radio Éireann, which has been the subject of vigorous condemnation in this House by Senator Ó Maoláin for some time past, has a bad reputation. I do not say that its reputation is deserved but it has a bad reputation. It is not popular with many people but it seems to be the thing, and very popular and correct, to be "agin" Radio Éireann and to criticise it. If you criticise Radio Éireann and reject its programmes as not being worthy of your attention, then to many people you are a cut above the fellow who does listen in to Radio Éireann and has a good word to say for it. But the fact is that Radio Éireann has a bad reputation and to associate the new television service with that bad reputation is not the best way of successfully inaugurating a difficult service such as television. It is a very bad thing to associate the two.

In addition, since television will require a new kind of outlook, a new drive and new ideas, the translation of the old ideas that have prevailed in Radio Éireann into a television service may not be the best thing. It may hamper or restrain undesirably the infant television service and I rely with some confidence upon the strong recommendation of the Commission that for a period, until such time as television gets on its feet, it should be kept separate from the radio. I should like to hear from the Minister why he has not accepted that recommendation. That at least was one of the recommendations which in the altered circumstances the Government might have accepted in deference to the Commission.

The Minister in his speech gave us no indication whatever as to how advertising is to be fitted into this new television service. It is certainly a matter that requires some more definition than is either contained in the Bill or was given by the Minister. Will the Television Authority be given carte blanche to allow commercial firms to provide most of the programmes if it thinks proper? Subsection 6 of Section 20 provides—

In this section references to advertisements shall be construed as including references to advertising matter in sponsored programmes, that is to say, programmes supplied for advertising purposes by or on behalf of an advertiser.

That seems to me to leave completely open to the Television Authority to say that 70 per cent. or 80 per cent. of the time on television shall be given to commercial firms who will provide programmes.

Is that what the Minister has in mind? Is that the kind of television service we are inaugurating in this Bill? It seems, as far as I can see, within the competence of the Authority to decide they will devote all the time—with the exception perhaps of news bulletins and a few other matters like that—to sponsored programmes which would be put on by commercial firms. The Minister should give some clearer indication as to what is intended, though I think that there should be some limitation upon the number of sponsored programmes on an Irish television service, more particularly since we are establishing an Authority with the power and duty of originating programmes of its own.

There are a number of curious features in this Bill in relation to the Authority. It is provided in Section 8 that where a member of the Authority has "any interest in any company or concern with which the Authority proposes to make any contract, or any interest in any contract which the Authority proposes to make," that member shall disclose to the Authority the fact of his interest and shall take no part in any deliberations or decisions of the Authority relating to the contract. I wonder what the effect of that will be. Is that section merely intended to legalise the position of a person who will have an interest in companies or concerns providing television shows? If that be the case, how can the Minister think that the mere fact that such a person will not take part in deliberations will make for an impartial or objective decision by the Authority?

In another part of the Bill, it is provided that those abominable people who must be kept out of most public bodies—members of the Oireachtas—cannot be members of the Authority but you can be a member of the Authority and have a direct financial interest in the programmes which are being put on. It seems to me to be elevating the moral standards of some people and an unnecessary denigration of ourselves in this Bill. I think that we ought to delete Section 8 altogether and not be hypocritical because Section 8 as it stands is just a masterpiece of hypocrisy designed to cover up a particular situation which I understand is liable to arise.

This Bill is, as I said, vague. In this country we are rather inclined to regard ourselves—I think rightly—in matters of morality and behaviour generally as a cut above the British. In British television, however, they have taken the precaution—and, remember, their standards are not as high as ours —of giving a statutory standard to the Television Authority in Section 3 of the 1954 Act to guide them both in regard to programmes and publications. Section 3 provides:—

"It shall be the duty of the Authority to satisfy themselves that, so far as possible, the programmes broadcast by the Authority comply with the following requirements, that is to say— that nothing is included in the programmes which offends against good taste or decency——"

I think we should put in such a provision in our Bill as a signpost. It would have the added advantage of enabling the Authority up against a powerful commercial interest to say that they are statutorily obliged to reject anything which offends, in their opinion, against good taste or decency. As well as that, prospective advertisers would have notice that they must not offend in these respects. Apparently, we are not concerned with standards at all in our Bill. We do not even mention that a programme must conform to any kind of standard. The provision in the British Act goes on to say:—

"——or is likely to encourage or incite to crime."

I have in mind now a certain newspaper which publicises precisely the kind of material which incites people to offend against part of the criminal code of this country.

Hear, hear!

It might be very salutary that a statutory Authority should bear in mind that certain things presented in a particular way might incite young people to offend against the criminal code, and to offend, not only from the domestic point of view but also from the point of view of other States. The section goes on:

"or to lead to disorder or to be offensive to public feelings or which contains any offensive representation of or reference to a living person."

I think we would all agree that these are desirable standards. There is a great deal to be said both from the point of view of setting standards and from the point of view of ease in administration.

I am reminded of the Transport Act of 1958. I remember Senator John O'Donovan referring to the necessity for having regard to the national economy, the national interest and so on, and we put in certain standards and certain signposts for the guidance of Córas Iompair Éireann. That was in the mere matter of running a railway. In this matter of such paramount importance we are not concerned with standards at all.

Subsection (b) of Section 3 of the British Television Act of 1954 provides:—

"that the programmes maintain a proper balance in their subject matter and a high general standard of quality."

It is desirable that the new Authority should have a statutory obligation imposed upon them to maintain a high standard of quality and a proper balance in their programmes. There is nothing in this Bill which imposes any such obligation. They can, apparently, have what standards they choose irrespective of whether they are good, bad or indifferent. If the Minister should be questioned about it in the Dáil he will say, as all Ministers say when questioned about certain statutory bodies, that the matter is one of day-to-day management and he has no function. That is the time-honoured reply to such questions.

The British Television Act goes on to deal with the presentation of news. It stipulates that news should be presented with due accuracy and impartiality. Curiously enough, while we are prepared to entrust to this new Authority all that is involved in the provision of a television service, with all its moral, social and cultural implications, when it comes to the question of the remuneration of the Director-General we are no longer prepared to trust the Authority.

Subsection (4) of Section 13 specifically provides:—

Notwithstanding the foregoing subsections of this section, the consent of the Minister shall be necessary before the Authority appoints or removes the Director-General, or alters his remuneration or his terms and conditions of holding office.

If they want to give the Director-General the 10/- increase which has been given all round, they will have to get the consent of the Minister. Apparently the consent of the Minister, or of anybody else, is not necessary in relation to the quality of the programmes except that under Section 31 the Minister may direct the Authority in writing to refrain from broadcasting any particular matter or matters of any particular class; the Minister may decide that something might annoy Red China or get the Minister for External Affairs into difficulties in the United Nations.

The Minister has not been very specific with regard to the purpose of Section 12 or with regard to what it is intended to do with the present staff of Radio Eireann. As I understand the position, many of them are not entitled to superannuation. Many of them have been in the service for 20 or 25 years, but they have never been established because it was always felt that they might go out of favour with the listening public. Perhaps some of them did not have a knowledge of Irish, or something like that. But these people have given long and loyal service under very trying conditions. In relation to transport employees, and others, we have given added years of service to enable them to qualify for full pension on retirement.

Section 16 is vague in the extreme. Section 18 deals with impartiality. As I understand Senator Ó Maoláin, he is a diligent listener to Radio Eireann. I am sure he must have been gratified on occasions with the impartiality in the reporting of matters political. I have not heard him complain of a lack of impartiality this evening. Of course, the impartiality has always been on the side of the Senator's political Party. I have listened to broadcasts of debates in the Seanad and in the Dáil. I have been irritated, I have been annoyed and, indeed, I have been scandalised at the audacity of people in public employment using Radio Eireann for Party political purposes. I have had occasion to make complaints to the Director, but I have got very little satisfaction beyond politeness and certain adroit explanations.

I shall illustrate the kind of thing that can go on in a service for which, up to now, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has been responsible and for which he was answerable in Dáil Éireann. I have a recollection of a time, not very long distant, when we were discussing the Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill in this House, the Government Party were short of speakers or short of something to say in support of the Bill and they were all using what Senator Sheehy Skeffington described as the single transferable vote. It so happened that on this day the people on this side of the House and on that side of the House who had independent views were reported and the Government side would have come out very badly in the report in "Today in the Seanad". The Dáil was not sitting at the time. Ingenuity was not lacking in the news room of Radio Éireann. Senator Ó Maoláin had spoken the day before and they took hunks of Senator Ó Maoláin's speech of the day before and put it in as being made on that evening.

It was probably the only thing worth reporting.

Not alone worth reporting but worth repeating. It is the custom to say that a repeat broadcast will be on such-and-such a night but they did not say that and it was very derogatory of Senator Ó Maoláin and of the Chair of this House having Senator Ó Maoláin put down as being grossly repetitive. It was the single transferable speech. He was still saying the same thing.

The Senator is not as good as Dublin Opinion.

That is the kind of impartiality about which Senator Ó Maoláin——

Would the Senator like examples of impartiality from my point of view showing favouritism to his side and therefore proving the impartiality of Radio Éireann?

I have yet to listen to its being impartial in regard to this side.

I shall give examples.

However, that is the kind of thing that no amount of statutory regulation can get over because in the last analysis you must depend on the integrity of the people who are in charge of that service. At the same time it is desirable that this section should be strengthened to avoid what I have mentioned. Of course we have seen, in regard to impartiality, this device during the report of the discussion on the Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill: speakers on this side of the House would have their speeches reported with the least important points referred to but the time would be given. When there were Questions in the Dáil about the number of words or the amount of space given to the different political Parties, the time would be shown in relation to people on this side of the House but no reference would be made to the fact that the unimportant points were taken out and reported for the Opposition and anything that appeared to be of importance—although there was very little of importance in the Government speeches on this question——

Is Senator O'Quigley the sole judge of importance?

I am merely making my observations on the single transferable speech which we heard repeated time and time again.

The Senator is not as good as Dublin Opinion.

I have no intention of emulating Dublin Opinion, for which I have the liveliest regard. However, I do not want to be put off by the good-humoured interruptions of the Leader of the House. The point I am making is that you had that kind of skullduggery in reporting the unimportant or less important parts of the speeches while leaving out the important parts for the sole purpose of filling in the time.

Is this not a rather serious charge? People might get into trouble for it. It should be emphasised that some members of the House realise that the reporter's view of what is important may differ from that of the Senator. I think he is arrogating to himself a kind of final decision as to what is important and what is not important.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I should like the Senator to relate it to the Bill. I do not think there is any great trouble in relating it to the Bill but I should like to hear him doing it.

I shall relate it to the Bill in this way. I am talking about the kind of thing which goes on in the broadcasting service. We are dealing with something new in this Bill and I desire that this section about impartiality should be rigorously observed. I know quite well the significance of that for the people who are concerned in it in Radio Éireann, but I am not saying that the reporters who report speeches here were responsible. There is such a thing as a sub-editor or an editor who edits the speeches. That may be where the fault lay. I do not know nor am I saying but I was told sotto voce—and it may allay Senator Stanford's fears—that so far from that militating against anybody's prospects in Radio Éireann, it is likely to involve promotion for them.

Little Sir Echo told you that.

I heard it sotto voce. I think it is a very good point which should allay Senator Stanford's fears. That is not the kind of thing we want in the television service and I trust this section will be strengthened so as to avoid that. Senator Ó Maoláin and the other members on that side of the House should remember they are not like the brook; they may not be going on for ever. It is most unlikely that they will be in Government four or five years from now. The shoe may be on the other foot, but they can have this certainty —that that kind of skullduggery will not be practised by the people on this side of the House who are Ministers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator might refrain from using the word "skullduggery" again.

I withdraw that word and substitute "lack of impartiality" for it. I come now to Section 26 which provides that an annual report shall be submitted by the Authority and, under subsection (3) the Authority shall submit to the Minister such information regarding the performance of his functions as he may from time to time require. That is a very necessary provision but the aspect of it with which I should like to deal is whether or not if that information is submitted on its functions by the Authority, the Minister will then in Dáil Éireann say that he has got no information on the activities and that he is not answerable for the activities of the Authority. What I want to know is whether this subsection (3) of Section 26 in effect provides for Parliamentary responsibilities by the Minister for the functions of the new Authority. If that is the intention of the section it certainly will colour the outlook of the House on the Committee Stage.

Senator Hayes already referred to the authority which is vested in the Minister under Section 31. It has been explained that the first subsection is to deal with the kind of matter where the Television Authority might go off the rails and involve the Government in a dispute with another Government and that seems to be entirely desirable. Then the Minister indicated that the purpose of subsection (2) which enables the Minister to "direct the Authority to allocate broadcasting time for any announcements by, or in connection with the functions of any Minister of State, and the Authority shall comply with the direction" was to cover an occasion when the Minister for Finance was inaugurating a National Loan. The Minister was most happy in his example because it is customary whenever a National Loan is floated for both Parties in Dáil Éireann immediately to rise to their feet to recommend the loan to the country. Of course, as Senator Hayes pointed out, there is a little more in it than that, that there might be other functions of the Minister which would not properly be functions of the Minister in his capacity as Minister but in his capacity as a member of a political Party. He might direct the Authority to announce and that then they were obliged to make these announcements.

There is a similar section in the British Television Act and it is instructive—highly instructive—to see the changes for the better from the Government's points of view that are being made in this Bill. The British Act provides in Section 9, subsection (1):

The Postmaster-General and any other Minister of the Crown may, if it appears to him to be necessary or expedient so to do in connection with his functions as such...

Mark the difference "in connection with his functions as such". We do not say that in this section. We say "in connection with the functions of any Minister of State". It is not his functions qua the Minister. It is purely limited to his ministerial capacity. That is provided for in subsection (2) of Section 31 but is much wider. The British Act, however, limits the circumstances under which a Minister may give a direction to the Authority about announcements —announcements in connection with the functions of the Minister as such. The Minister may:

at any time by notice in writing require the Authority to broadcast, at such times as may be specified in the notice and from such of the stations used by them as may be so specified, any announcement so specified...

Again, if we turn to this section, we find that the Minister here will give a general direction in relation to the functions of the Ministers of State, the Dáil, opening hospitals, attending comhairle ceanntair meetings of the Party and such like, that all these announcements shall be included but the British Act limits it to any announcement so specified in writing, that is, for each particular case. Then the British Act, as Senator Hayes stated, provides:

Where the Authority broadcast any announcement in persuance of a notice under this subsection they may, if they think fit, announce that they are doing so in pursuance of such a notice.

But our Bill provides that the Authority can indicate that they are making this announcement on the direction of the Minister only if the Minister allows them. In the British Act, the announcement can be made if the Authority chooses. The Minister concerned has nothing at all to say about it. I think that is the kind of section in the Bill which creates an atmosphere of suspicion because the fact of the matter is that if this kind of section can be availed of by a Government, a Minister, being human, will certainly avail himself of it and he can always say: "Well, that is provided for in the Bill." It may often-times happen indeed that nobody will know anything about it or it may happen at any time during a recess when it would be late subsequently to raise the matter of a particular kind of announcement having been made by the Minister for Party purposes rather than in connection with his functions as a Minister.

I entirely subscribe to the views that have been expressed upon the desirability of making the fullest use of the advisory committees to be established. I think perhaps that the request which was made by Senator Stanford for the appointment of a member of the religious minority on the Television Authority might well be met by the establishment of an advisory committee dealing with the broadcasting or televising of religious programmes and upon which the religious minorities' interest would be safeguarded. I do not know if it would be a good thing merely to put somebody on the Authority itself who would be generally concerned with matters which will not have any great impact or any particular impact upon the religious minority.

I think the Minister might take one of the advisory committees which he had in mind—one dealing with religious programmes and perhaps allied to that would be educational and children's programmes. I do not know whether the two could be worked in together. It does seem in relation to religious broadcasting, the matter being of such immediate concern to the religious interest involved, if that is a sufficiently respectful way to describe them, that an advisory committee dealing with religion should be established. Indeed, it is provided for in the British Television Act. Other advisory committees which are described in the Television Act are one to include business men and those associated with advertisements and the third is in relation to children's programmes and education.

The British Act prescribes at some considerable length the circumstances under which advertisements might be inserted in television broadcasts. I understood from the report of the Television Commission that that is about 10 per cent. of broadcasting time. Six minutes are given or it might be extended to ten, provided the ten minute period was not exceeded in any period of broadcasting.

Again, it seems to me that it is desirable to give some broad indication—at least a broad indication—as to the length of time or the manner in which advertisements should be inserted in television programmes. The extraordinary thing about this Bill is that the customary method of dealing with matters which can best be dealt with because of their complexity, namely, Statutory Rules and Orders, is not provided for anywhere in this Bill. There is only one reference to laying any document before the Houses of the Oireachtas and that is in relation to a contributory pension scheme for the staff of the new Authority.

It would seem to me to give sufficient flexibility to the Minister and to the Authority, while at the same time nothing involving undue parliamentary control, if instead of incorporating the conditions with regard to advertisements in a Schedule in the Act, as is done in the British Act, we were to provide that that might be dealt with by regulation to be laid before either or both Houses of the Oireachtas.

It is a matter on which there would perhaps, be strong and different views and that may very well be the reason for excluding it completely from the Bill, but it might be far better for the success of the television service if this matter which is the subject of so much agitation in the neighbouring island were dealt with more definitely in the Bill.

It might seem from the criticisms I have made that I am in some way opposed to this Bill. I am not at all opposed to the Second Reading. I have certain criticisms to make of the constitution of the Authority and the degree of Government control and other matters, but I think the Government must be commended for facing up to the realities of the problem of television and introducing this Bill at this stage. I trust that the Minister's mind is not closed to amendments and that the criticisms and suggestions made here by various people will be considered by the Minister with a view to providing what we all want—a really good television service, as good as our limited resources and our considerable talents will enable us to provide for the people of this country.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Perhaps Senator Ó Maoláin would indicate what we intend to do tomorrow?

To meet the convenience of members from the rural areas, I suggest that the House meet at 11 a.m., that we complete the Second Stage of the Broadcasting Authority Bill and then take the Petroleum Bill until 6 o'clock—not later than 6 o'clock. If that meets with agreement, we propose to do that.

We would be in agreement, but I understood the Minister for Industry and Commerce would not be available after 6 o'clock.

That is right.

Therefore, we would have to complete the Broadcasting Bill, if we could, by 5 o'clock and leave time for the Petroleum Bill.

That is agreeable, Sir.

Táimidhe, leis an mBille seo, ag bunú eagraíochta gur mór ar fad é a tionchar ar ghné an phobail, ar chultúr an phobail agus ar éirimí an phobail maidir le healaín agus nithe a bhaineann leis. Le bunú na seirbhíse teilifíse agus é ceangailte le Radió Éireann, fé mar atá againn le blianta, tá rud cumhachtach á dhéanamh againn mar gur fairsing é a thionchar ar phobal na tíre agus nílim sásta i m'aigne go bhfuil an ghné sin den scéal agus den obair á mheas againn a bheith chomh tábhachtach agus atá sé i ndáiríre.

Tá a lán tagairtí déanta ar feadh an lae do phointí áirithe sa Bhille ach b'fhearr liomsa go mbeadh níos mó tagairtí, go mbeadh ár n-aigne dírithe níos mó agus ár gcuid scrúdúcháin agus breithniúcháin dírithe níos deimhnithe, níos iomláine, ar an dá phríomhrud tábhachtacha atá sa Bhille seo, is iad sin, bunú an Bhord Stiúrúcháin, nó an Bhord Teilifíse, agus ceapadh an phríomh-stiúrthóra. Is ins an dá rud sin atá eochair na hoibre ar fad agus is ag brath ar an dá rud sin atá rath nó mí-rath an ghnó ar fad. Is trua liom nach bhfuil ár n-aigne dírithe níos cruinne ar na cúrsaí a bhaineann leis an dá phointe sin.

Rud mór cumhachtach atá á bhunú againn. Ní mó ná go mbeidh oiread tionchair aige ar aigne an phobail, ar chultúir an phobail, ar éirimí agus ar thuiscint intleachtúil an phobail agus atá ag an Roinn Oideachais. B'fhéidir go n-oibreodh sé i gcomhar leis an Roinn Oideachais. D'fhéadfadh sé meoin na tíre ar fad a athrú, daoine a threorú chun galldachais, daoine a threorú chun neamh-shuim, neamhspéis agus neamh-aire a thabhairt dá dtír féin, ar thraidisiún an chine agus ar an gcultúr a bhain linn mar náisiún agus mar chine ariamh. Ach, ar an taobh eile, d'fhéadfadh sé cur go mór leo sin, a bheith ina thionchar láidir, bríomhar, éifeachtúil agus buan chun na nithe sin a dhaingniú, a chur ar aghaidh, a fhíorú i n-aigne an phobail, agus fós, aigne an phobail a ghríosú chun iad sin a chleachtadh.

Dá bhrí sin, deirimse gurb é an rud is tábhachtaí ar fad sa Bhille ná ceapadh an Bhoird Stiúrtha agus an phríomh-stiúrthóra ina theannta. Sin iad dhá eochair an ghnó ar fad. Fágfaidh mé an rud sin anois mar do dheineas tagairt dóibh cheana agus ní maith liom bheith ag cur leis an scéal ach go dtuigfear tábhacht na ceiste sin agus na ngnéithe sin den obair atá á dhéanamh againn anois i dteannta a chéile.

An Bord Údaráis—tá imní orm faoi sin agus tá imní orm faoin bpríomh-stiúrthóir a bheidh ann. Tá sé chomh tábhachtach sin go mbeadh na daoine cearta ann, go bhfuil an smaoineamh níos tábhachtaí ná an Bille go léir, mar, fé mar a dúirt mé cheana, mura mbíonn na daoine cearta ann, ní eireoidh leis an obair seo, leis an Údarás seo atáimid a chur ar bun, ins na cuspóirí ab áil linn a chur chun cinn. Má bhíonn na daoine cearta ann, tabharfar údarás dóibh agus bheadh muinín agam astu agus do ligfinn leo. Tá imní orm faoi na nithe seo.

Tá caint agus ceist ar "quality" agus is ceist an-tábhabhtach í sin maidir leis na nithe a thig linn a chur ar an aer agus ar an teilifís. Tá níos mó ná 65,000,000 duine i Sasana—sa Bhreatain Mhór—agus níl ach 3,000,000 duine sa tír seo. Is dóigh liom gur mbeidh sé i bhfad níos deacra cláir a cheapadh agus a chur ar an aer agus iad a bheith comh fiúntach sin go mbeadh meas ag gach aon duine orthu.

Tá cúpla ní eile ann. Tá Radió Éireann le bheith ceangailte leis an teilifís. Ní cóir go mbeidís scartha óna chéile mar sílim go bhfuil baint láidir acu le ceisteanna dúchais agus cultúr na tíre. Mar sin ní féidir iad a scaradh agus molaim an tAire as iad a cheangal le chéile. Tá na nithe seo ceangailte le chéile agus tá caoi ann anois chun tosnú fuinniúil a dhéanamh agus iad a chur ag obair ar mhaithe le cultúr na hÉireann.

Sin iad na trí nithe is mó atá i gceist, na nithe is tábhachtaí agus ba mhaith liomsa le linn scrúdú a bheith á dhéanamh ar na nithe seo go ndéanfaimis níos mó machnaimh ar na rudaí seo, níos mó scrúdaithe orthu agus níos mó ceistiúcháin ina dtaobh.

Maidir leis an mBord Stiúrtha, fé mar a dúirt mé cheana, tá imní orm ina dtaobh. Is orthu sin atá rath an scéil ag brath agus ba mhaith liom go dtuigfeadh an tAire agus an Rialtas an riachtanas ar fad atá ann daoine cearta a chur ar an mBord sin. Do thagair an Seanadóir Mícheál Ó hAodha agus do thagair an Seanadóir Tomás Ó Maoláin do chomh riachtanach agus atá sé duine le Gaeilge bheith ar an mBord. Níl mé sásta leis sin in aon chor. Níl aon chúis ná beadh cúigear nó seisear le Gaeilge ar an mBord.

Bhuel, ní maith liom an focal sin. Ba cheart go mbeadh daoine ann go mbeadh móráil acu as an gcine gur díobh iad. Ba cheart go mbeadh móráil acu as an teanga a bhain leis an gcine sin riamh agus go mbeadh tuiscint acu ar an riachtanas atá ann chun an teanga sin a athbhunú i gcúrsaí cultúir agus i gcúrsaí gnáth-chumarsáide agus úsáide i measc an phobail. Is iad sin na nithe atá ag déanamh buartha dom maidir leis an mBille seo. Réiteofar na rudaí eile de réir mar bheidh taithí againn orthu. Cuirfear feabhas orthu sin i ndiaidh a chéile. Tosnú ceart ó thosach, sin é an príomh-rud agus go mbéadh na daoine cearta ag stiúradh agus i mbun an ghnó sin.

I agree with the general purpose of this Bill which is to establish a television service here. We all know that nowadays this is no longer a luxury. It is an essential for any modern State. Therefore, I think we are all in agreement with the idea of setting up a television service. The big decision in the first place for the Government to make in connection with the television service was, of course, to decide whether the service was to be rendered by private enterprise or by some semi-State body. In this Bill the decision is being implemented to establish a semi-State body and operate television in that way.

As Senator Hayes already said unfortunately we are not in possession of all the facts and factors that led the Government to make this decision. Therefore, we must merely take it that the decision is there and we must accept it. However, the decision has been made to set up what we now know to be a semi-State company. We must ensure that the broadcasting Authority makes a success of both sound and television because we are all concerned in this. Naturally, once a project is started it is up to us to see it is a success and we must help in every way possible to make it a success. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that we might make a compromise here as they did in England and have the two forms of the service.

We must start with one, of course, and start in a gentle and simple way. Perhaps later on it may be found possible to have this semi-State service and a commercial service run as I.T.V. is run in England, one depending on revenue from licences and the other depending on advertising revenue. I cannot help feeling that ultimately a commercial body will be found to be best able to secure advertisements for television. A certain amount of advertisements will go the way of the State or semi-State body, but, because of the push of private enterprise as compared with State enterprise, even if we have fairly good State enterprise, I believe we would be much better under the push of private enterprise. That is my own philosophy. Therefore, I hope that sometime in the distant future we shall have the two kinds of television. Some people seem to think the State will give a higher cultural value and quality of service and that, perhaps, the filthy lucre which motivates private enterprise would provide a rather lower form of entertainment for the ordinary man in the street. Time will tell.

As I am on this subject, I should like to say a few words on a matter which has been brought to my attention. As we all know, this question of television has been under discussion for three and a half years. It was more or less thought originally that television would probably be operated by private enterprise interests, with the idea that these interests would undertake responsibility for the financial side and thereby relieve the State of the risk that is inherent in anything of this kind. It was always understood, of course, that there would be Governmental control over the activities of the television service.

A number of very important people came here to explain the situation to us. They went very deeply into the subject and they provided a lot of information. They went to a lot of trouble and, from their work and the information they gave, the decision which we have before us today was come to. A number of very important international television operators were included. On the British side, they were from Granada, Ranks (Southern English), A.T.V., A.B.C., Rediffusion, Thompson (North Scottish), and from the U.S.A., C.B.C., Columbia Broadcasting Corporation and N.B.C., National Broadcasting Corporation.

Representatives of all these companies came over here and went into the proposals which they put up in the most minute detail, and with no small degree of expense, and when finally a decision was come to, no communication of thanks of any kind was sent to them. The first they heard of the Government's decision—which we have here before us today—was in the public Press. Afterwards a roneo-ed letter was sent to them informing them of the Minister's decision.

I have a few notes here from one of the most important operators who came over to my own knowledge—I actually spoke to him as far back as three years ago. These are the few remarks he wrote down for me:—

Post and Telegraphs have had conversations for over three and a half years, with at least one applicant who even made tests in the Dublin mountains, with the knowledge of the Government.

This applicant repeatedly warned that it was most important to get on the air before Belfast.

All the applicants appeared before the Commission more than once.

At least one of the applicants made arrangements for the Commission to visit the television operations in England and U.S.A., and took them personally to these operations in both countries.

The Government, after hearing the exact plans of many applicants, decided to do television themselves.

At least two of the leading applicants only heard this decision through the newspapers, and were sent a copy of the decision announced by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. No thanks were ever given for the time, effort and considerable expense gone to by at least two of the applicants.

It is a pity that a letter of notification was not sent to each of the sponsors, not only in a spirit of politeness, but for the maintenance of good relations with people who will be fellow operators in the television field. Putting it at its worst, unfriendly or disgruntled fellow operators may be in a position, later on, to hinder our activities and programmes in the future, not only in the matter of securing films and telerecordings, but also in the matter of competing for advertisements. I should like to add that I think that in our State, where we profess our reliance upon private enterprise, the fact that these people made proposals with a profit motive should not have been made the reason for considering them unworthy to receive thanks for their efforts. There seems to be some idea that they "were in it for money".

I do not think it is necessary to say that we realise that although private enterprise does find a driving force in the profit motive, an additional driving force of all successful private enterprise activities must be that of giving good service—and these people certainly gave good service. It is a pity that there was an oversight. We are supposed to be a people of courtesy and good manners. It is a pity that these people were not thanked and I hope that even now, something will be done, that at least a letter will be written to them to thank them for their efforts, on which we definitely have based our decision.

It has been very interesting so far in that so much expert knowledge was brought out on the question of television. I myself do not propose to weary the House with my observations on the benefits of television, and so on. It is very desirable that some people should talk on the subject in that way and it is timely to say that there are still an extraordinary number of people who seem to regard television as a frightful thing—something which children must not see—and as something they would not dream "of having in my room", like somebody hiding behind a curtain and not wanting to see what is happening outside. We, in this country, need to know what is happening in other parts of the world. We should realise the advantages of having in a room in our houses the most extraordinary variety of thoughts, ideas, views and scenes of all kinds. It is wrong to think of television only in terms of comics or variety shows, and people who think like that are few and far between.

I have television, I am glad to say, and I find that the most extraordinary variety of subjects are there before you in your room, night after night, day after day. There is the news; entertainment: drama, music, opera, dancing; the arts: sculpture and architecture; sport; political problems discussed by the actual people who make the political problems and those who solve them, such as Nehru and the Indian problem, and the problems of the countries which are now coming to the fore. These problems are discussed by the leading personalities in person and by commentators who are the best in the world. There is a travel, education, information and entertainment of one kind or another. Anybody who cannot see the extraordinary significance of a machine like that must be somewhat dim and dumb.

I should like to welcome this Bill, in the most enthusiastic way. It has been made possible now for us in Ireland to do our bit and add our little contribution, which, however small, should be given. I think the essence of that contribution should be that we should try to provide something good. It should be quality rather than quantity. In other words, it would be quite wrong for us to talk in terms of quantity as compared. with other people. I happened to be talking to one of the heads of I.T.V. the other night and he told me the I.T.V. people spend £17,000,000 a year and the B.B.C. £16,000,000 a year on broadcasting. That is an enormous expenditure.

Debate adjourned.
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