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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Feb 1960

Vol. 52 No. 4

Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 9:
In subsection (2) to delete paragraph (iii), lines 16 to 18, inclusive. —(Senator Quinlan.)

The Minister has indicated, if I understood him properly, that the Authority would not be obliged to hold public competitions for certain positions which he named and which I took to be such positions as those of actor, musician, director, producer, radio announcer, and so on. When I read this section, I thought it was reasonable. I felt that in a television service, there would be certain kinds of posts to be filled in respect of which qualifications would be required which are not commonly held and I thought these qualifications would apply to the field of electronics and matters connected with the technical functioning of the television apparatus. I also thought that it would be reasonable that there should not be a competition for such a position as, for instance, director of an orchestra. It is not the kind of thing that one would do, to have a competition for directors of orchestras; from time to time, it is useful to have guest conductors coming over and spending a period here, and we could not have a competition in those circumstances. However, I do not see any reason why, in order to assess, on a marking system, the merit of actors, the general run of musicians and announcers, a competition should not be held.

There is the further point about the section as it stands—in the light of the Minister's interpretation that there is to be no public competition—that the Authority would be entitled to select people out of the blue without giving any opportunity to people who might be better qualified and better entitled to the posts which will be available under the Authority. That seems to me to be a most unwelcome departure from long-established precedent and to be unfair to the people who will undoubtedly be affected by this section. Consequently, I would support the amendment.

Senator O'Quigley is taking a distorted view of the provisions of subsection (2). I have listened to his statement carefully and he has occasionally used the phrase: "If I understood the Minister properly". He carefully avoided making any reference to news editors or script writers because he knows as well as everybody else that the people in the newspaper world do not sit for public competitions for the posts they occupy. There is a recognised method by which such people are employed and when the Authority has been established, Radio Éireann will follow the recognised method which has been the practice in that sphere for a long number of years.

If this Authority required the services of a cartoonist, what would be the advantage of having a public competition to employ such a person? Cartoonists are used by television authorities all over the world and if the Authority required the services of an outstanding person with that flare, they would get him by negotiation. It is not a question of putting out your hand and grabbing a man or fixing a certain person in a position; it is the other way round. The Authority will be expected to employ the best possible people.

We are providing in the section for public examinations. We are also providing for the take-over of staff, and, for appointments that normally fall within the category of those made by public examination, that will be the procedure. Paragraph (iii) of sub-section (2) enables the Authority to employ directly the classes of people in question. Senator O'Quigley mentioned announcers. I cannot visualise announcers being employed by the Authority without an interview. You will get a number of people to apply for a position as announcer. There would have to be an interview in that case but not a public examination. It would be very difficult to allocate marks in an examination for the position of announcer. The Authority would interview the prospective announcer and evaluate the person's capabilities by testing his or her ability as an announcer.

I made reference to actors. If the Authority were putting on Shakespearian plays, everybody knows that the Authority would try to get the outstanding actor in that field. The same applies to musicians. I do not think musicians sit for public examinations for positions in orchestras in this country or in any other country.

There are tests.

We know there are tests, but these are not ruled out in the section. You will not, however, have a competition or will not——

That is the whole point of the amendment.

The Minister will remember that when the Radio Éireann string quartet was appointed in Cork, the equivalent of a Local Appointments Commission sat in London to examine candidates for it.

The same under this section. Will the Authority not be free?

I think it will. If they want the services of an outstanding person who will not sit for an examination, what will they do? That is exactly what this is here for. I hold that the Senator or anybody who disagrees with me is taking a distorted view of this portion of the sub-section. I would not wish under any circumstances to tie the Authority by the acceptance of this amendment. You could lose the services of people who would be absolutely essential to the proper functioning of the service or who would give an added flavour and an added distinctiveness to the service this Authority hopes to provide.

I feel that this amendment to sub-section (2) is meant to give certain exceptions to the last words in sub-section (1), that is, "public competition". I assume "public competition" will mean as a general rule competition under the aegis of a Civil Service Commission or a Local Appointments Commission.

Not necessarily.

In the main, it will mean that.

In sub-section (2), the Minister is making certain exceptions. There can be no doubt that certain exceptions must be made— paragraphs (i), (ii) and (iv). There seems to be some difficulty about the meaning of paragraph (iii); the meaning of the words "public competition" and the meaning of the amendment. If the amendment were accepted, there is no doubt in my mind—I hope I shall not surprise the Minister by being to some extent on his side—that the Television Authority would be bound to have a public competition for every kind of post. In truth and in fact, that is not feasible, or, if it is feasible, it would not in every case be the most satisfactory thing.

Once you establish the Authority, you must give it certain powers. It seems to me that in the selection of newsmen, for example, it ought to have the same power as the newspapers. Sometimes the newspapers advertise; sometimes they do not. The original staff of Reporters of Dáil Éireann were picked by the Editor of Debates and the names put up to me. They were an extremely good staff. There was no advertisement for them in the circumstances of that moment. They were the kind of people who had to be got by a particular process.

I happen to know that in other places, even in the University itself, occasionally you cannot advertise. You have to get a particular kind of person who you know is there. You look for him and get him without advertisement. Once you establish this Authority, it will do a job which has some analogy with the job heretofore done by Radio Éireann, but it is a new job to a very great extent. I am satisfied you have to give them certain powers and see how they work. There are a considerable number of posts, I think, speaking in agreement with the Minister, which might be advertised or might not. It all depends. You might want a particular person. You might want to negotiate with him. He might be the best person in a particular field and that might be well known. To tie them up to such a degree that every post would have to be filled by way of public competition presumably means that every post would have to be advertised and that there would have to be a form of public competition for it.

I was Chairman of the Civil Service Commission for ten years. I am not entirely satisfied with the notion of an interview board and allocation of marks. It can give you some very curious results even agreeing that everybody is bona fide and doing his best. In doing this job, which, to a very large extent, is a business job, it seems to me the Authority should have the same freedom as business people. We in this House and the members of the Dáil will have the freedom we have not got in relation to business people eventually to criticise. I am afraid we shall have to let a certain amount of this go and see what happens. There may be an occasional accusation, or even reality of jobbery to some extent, but it is unavoidable from this kind of thing that the Authority should have a certain amount of liberty.

I think Senator Quinlan was contemplating a certain amount of liberty for the Authority. He was contemplating an advertisement. If you take out paragraph (iii) of subsection (2), you bind up the Authority in such a way as to interfere with their work. I know they had public competitions for announcers in Radio Éireann. It was not the competition that prevented them from keeping the announcers; it was because they had not the money to pay them. A number of young men went into Radio Éireann as announcers on a part-time basis and abandoned it for a profession because it seemed to them the announcer business did not give the same results as professional practice of one kind or another. Therefore, it was not so much the method of appointment as the lack of money.

On the whole, if you simply take out this subsection you are tying up the Authority too much. Whether there is any intermediate course between the amendment and paragraph (iii) and what the Minister wants, I do not know; I do not see it. I do not think the mover of the amendment wants the position that the Authority would be bound never to go out and take the person they want but must always have it by public competition.

Arising out of the last remarks of Senator Hayes it seems to me that some of the confusion, some of the difference of opinion, perhaps arises from a different conception of what "public competition" means. When I first read this and referred to it on the Second Reading I took "public competition" simply to mean "after public advertisement." Apparently it could be interpreted legitimately as meaning written examination and interview.

Written examination or interview.

I think a compromise on the lines Senator Hayes suggested might be effected by an amendment to subsection (1) which could be moved on the Report Stage. Instead of saying, in effect, at the end of subsection (1) of section 12 "A person shall not be appointed under this section to be an officer of the Authority unless he is selected by means of a public competition" we might say "after public advertisement"—cut out "public competition."

There is an advantage always in public advertisement. I do not think the Authority by such wording would be bound to appoint one of the applicants under the advertisement because it is quite common practice, at any rate in University circles, to advertise for a post and to say, in effect, in the advertisement: "The University shall not consider itself bound to appoint from the applicants or to confine itself to the applicants."

I believe the principle of public advertisement will mean that at least we will get a larger field although it is quite true, as the Minister suggested, we might like the Authority to have the power to appoint from somebody who had not in fact applied. I think that would be a better method than not to advertise in particular cases. I would suggest the amendment because this third paragraph in sub-section (2) is unnecessary. It reads: "an office for which, in the opinion of the Authority, specialised qualifications not commonly held are required or..." Even though he would be the only person who might apply because the qualifications would be so specialised, it would still be better to have him or her appointed after public advertisement because only then would you know what the field was.

I think, perhaps, that the words "public competition" are ill-advised. Therefore, I should be tempted to suggest the amendment of subsection (1) on Report Stage and I would support now the ruling out of paragraph 3 because I think that, even in the case where we are looking for specialised qualifications, a public advertisement would be a useful thing.

I think the debate has shown that the real difficulty is the definition of "public competition". The University holds public competitions just the same as the State or any other body. The essence of a public competition is, as was pointed out by Senator Sheehy Skeffington, public advertisement and the subsequent step after advertising is really up to the Authority. In other words, it is either interview, any other type of examination or marking scheme prescribed. I would say that, for most of the posts mentioned, the interview is by far the most satisfactory means. I think the Agricultural Institute has set a very fine headline. I know it appoints a relatively specialised board to carry out the interviews for the various positions concerned. There is always some type of public uneasiness about posts filled without competition, without announcement or without advertising because people feel that the person was put into that job.

It baffles me how the qualifications mentioned by the Minister in regard to an actor or a musician could be regarded as not commonly held. I should have thought that "commonly held" would mean that there were no more than five or six people in the country who possessed those qualifications. Surely, if we advertise in the morning, we shall get others claiming they possess the qualifications required for an actor. If you regard the qualifications of a musician able to play a certain instrument as being a specialised qualification, then obviously under the same subsection you can regard every degree as being a specialised qualification.

I do not see why you should advertise for an electrical engineer, a mechanical engineer or any other person. These qualifications are not more commonly held than the qualifications listed in regard to actors, musicians, news announcers and so forth. I feel that the section is in need of amendment. Perhaps, the deletion proposed by me may be too drastic. On the other hand, the Minister mentioned that if you wanted to get a guest conductor or some other person you have got to snap him up. After all, subsection (4) covers all that because such people can be appointed for a period not exceeding two years and can be continued indefinitely after that. At any time the advertisement can be made out and the post can be filled in the regular way in accordance with the broader meaning of the words "public competition". It is wrong to tie the term "public competition" to appointment by the Civil Service Commission alone. I do not think that that definition of "public competition" is given in any Act of the Oireachtas.

If I withdraw this amendment, perhaps the Minister would look into the matter between now and Report Stage when he might be able to bring in an amendment to meet the points raised in this debate. I might make another shot at it myself.

I do not think this section needs any amendment. I would not wish to circumscribe the Authority and leave them in the position that they could not get the services of an outstanding person in a specialised field. That is exactly what the elimination of this portion of sub-section (2) would actually mean.

Yes. That would be the effect of it. There are certain outstanding people, such as musicians and actors, who would never dream of making application for an appointment with any authority. These people live in a world of their own as the Seanad knows. If the Authority required the services of an outstanding person of that nature, why prevent them from dealing directly with such a person and obtaining the services of that person for a small service such as ours to give that service a distinctive character? That is exactly why that subsection is there. If it is possible for the Authority to get such people, why prevent them from getting them because they do not apply through public examination or answer advertisements in any newspapers or anywhere else when they know such vacancies are available?

I am in favour of public competition. I am sure the Authority will follow the system of public examination and interview for the posts available, but we are leaving them this freedom to obtain the services of the classes of people I have named. It does not follow that all the classes of people I have named are such as the Authority would go out after and look for their services.

Take the engineering side of the business, for example. I am certain that the Authority will fully examine the qualifications of all people who apply for positions with them, and they will interview them in the normal way, the same as Radio Éireann would interview the people they have in their employment heretofore. It is a fact that Radio Éireann, the present authority, has taken on certain members of its staff without public advertisement or public competition. We have them still and we are——

Transferring them now.

Yes. We shall have them in future if they care to come and still remain in the employment of the Authority, having entered the service in that manner. I cannot see why Senators require an amendment to Section 12.

I want to be very brief. I think what is important is that we should protect the Authority from charges subsequently of appointing people because they are nephews of the Minister, sons-in-law of the Minister and that sort of thing. I think it is essential they should be protected in that way.

On quite a number of occasions the Minister used the phrase "public examination". What is in the Bill is "public competition". I should like him to look at and examine what is done, for example, in the Board of Works. The Board of Works recruit specialised people, people expert in carpets, soft furnishings and that sort of thing. There is no difficulty about holding public examinations, interviewing the people and appointing the most suitable person and that most suitable person might also be an outstanding person. There is no difficulty about it and it is the same in regard to these specialised posts.

Surely it would be advisable to protect the Authority from pressure groups or subsequent charges? That is why I am so much in favour of public competition. If the Minister will examine the experience in the Board of Works, I think he will agree that it is feasible and practicable.

The Minister referred to Shakespearian actors, for example, but I think he is overlooking paragraph (iv) of this subsection which allows for the temporary employment of such people. These outstanding actors, as such, are not interested in full-time, pensionable posts under any sort of authority. They are more or less freelance. They will go to certain people for a limited period and they are only interested in that. There is provision for that sort of temporary appointment under paragraph (iv). Remember, we are talking now apparently about full-time, permanent, pensionable posts. It is desirable, if practicable, to have them filled by way of public examination. If the Minister examines what is possible in the Civil Service, he will agree that, in fact, it is practicable, no matter how specialised the post is.

It seems to me there is a certain amount of contradiction in the remarks made by certain members on the other side: They say it is their desire to protect the Authority, and at the same time, they have no hesitation in circumscribing the activities or jurisdiction of that Authority. Of course, we are all in favour of the filling of vacancies under this Authority or under any authority by means of public competitions.

That is what you say.

I submit that subsection (1) of the section makes provision for that. But at the same time we all recognise that circumstances will arise in which it would not be either just or feasible to have anything like a public examination or competition for the filling of certain posts for which certain specialised qualifications are necessary. As the Minister has said, there are certain people already in the employment of Radio Éireann who were appointed because of their special qualifications, and not through the medium of any special competition. They will have to be taken over by this new Authority. To advertise for people with similar qualifications, when it is already well known and settled that these people are to be taken over, would be, I suggest, tantamount to practising deception on the public—to advertise for people with special qualifications when in fact the people are there already appointed. They are merely passing from the jurisdiction of one Authority to that of another. The Minister would be well advised to keep to the section as it is. As Senator Hayes said, this is a business proposition. This will be a business Authority and, like all business Authorities, will require a certain amount of freedom of action to do what they think is the very best for television.

This is a public authority and public money.

It is. But there is a public authority there already, Radio Éireann, and they have got people with specialised qualifications without any competition.

That is where you are wrong.

That is where I am right. There are instrumentalists and such people already in the employment of Radio Éireann, whose qualifications are known, not merely here, but internationally. Would it not be absurd to hold public competitions for such people when they are to be reappointed under this new Authority?

I can take the Minister's point pretty well. There is a lot to be said for it. Would the Minister consider the suggestion that where appointments are being made for a period of longer than six months, public advertisements for candidates should be necessary? That would permit the eminent and very specialised person to be appointed for a limited period.

I think the Minister should keep to this clause. It is the one safeguard we are putting into this Bill to ensure that the best talent and the best available technicians can be procured by the Authority, if they do not submit themselves in the ordinary way for the public examinations and competitions envisaged. What I have in mind more than anything else is the question of news. This new Authority, with particular reference to its television service, will to a great extent rise or fall on the efficiency, accuracy and up-to-the-minuteness of its news service. For that, it will have to have the best available newsmen and camera crews that can be got

May I put it to Senators this way? Suppose there is an advertisement of a public competition for camera crews for the first television news unit going out on the job. There are in this country very few photographers technically qualified for television camera work. Supposing nobody took any interest in it. You know there are people quite competent and capable of doing the job, but they are not interested in it and will not submit themselves. I want the Authority to have the freedom to go after these people, to negotiate with them directly, to offer them satisfactory terms and make it attractive for them to join the Irish television service and give it the benefit of their knowledge and experience.

I do not see any reason why there should be any fears on the part of any Senator in regard to this clause. Granted you have the usual type of mentality, revealed by Senator Murphy when he expressed the fear that the son or nephew of a T.D. would be put into one of these positions. I see nothing wrong with the son or nephew of a T.D. being put into any position, if he is competent.

I quite agree, and if he is recruited through public competition.

That small, narrow-minded outlook should be dropped. The time has gone when, in order to score a point or have a sneer, we should give expression to this type of outlook. If a man is the son or a woman is the daughter of a Deputy or a Senator or a high official in the Government, provided he or she has the qualifications, it should not be adduced in evidence against them that they happen to be connected with people in high places.

(Interruptions.)

Senators will have to maintain some kind of order. Members must be allowed to make their speeches free from disorderly interruption.

I do not intend to allow myself to be shouted down. I was a bit puzzled by Senator Quinlan's assertion that one of the reasons we should accept this amendment, or an amendment of a similar character, was the fact that his University makes its appointments after public advertisement and public competition. I should like to be absolutely sure that that is the position. I do not think it is. I do not think every post in a University is filled after advertisement and competition. In fact, I should be very surprised if that were the position.

I do not think that you will get, in the news department of either the television service or the Radio Éireann sound service, the men best qualified technically through the medium of advertisement and competition. Most of them will be in positions when this organisation comes into operation. They will be earning a satisfactory living; they will have good conditions. Most of them may not trouble to enter for an open competitive examination or even to reply to an advertisement, having sad experience of looking for jobs and replying to advertisements, in many cases their replies not even receiving the courtesy of an answer.

I do not think one would get suitable applicants under that system and we must, therefore, enable the Authority to go out and look for the best men and build up the most competent crews they can get for every facet of their working. Otherwise our television will not hold a candle to its competitors and, if that is to be the result, we might as well not have started this work at all. The suggested amendment will circumscribe the activities of the Authority in making the service the best possible television and sound broadcasting service we can get. We should not tie their hands. I agree with what Senator Hayes has said in regard to this matter. The Seanad would be well advised not to tamper with this section.

The longer this debate goes on, the more worried I become. This is a public authority. We want to give fair play to all our citizens and that connotes our giving them the right at least to enter for any post that may be available through the medium of public competition. I am not for one moment impressed by these high and mighty people who will not even deign to apply. Surely these posts for outstanding people will carry outstanding salaries and outstanding conditions. We have Nobel prize winners, B.Sc. and F.R.C.S. degree holders and all the rest of them being appointed to posts every day in the Universities. Senator Ó Maoláin should know that appointments in the Universities are made under statute passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Every appointment?

Statutory appointments — professors, lecturers and so forth. They are all governed by statute. The post must be advertised and the applicants must go through four election bodies. That should dispose of that contention.

The effect of this section is so wide that even someone able to play a Jew's harp can be said to have a specialised qualification.

Or pull strings.

Why waste public money printing this section at all? Drop the section from the Bill. It was suggested that specialised qualifications would apply where only one person in the country had a specialised knowledge of television operations. I never heard such a definition of specialised qualifications before. It seems fantastic to me. The effect of the subsection is to say to the Authority that they can make the qualifications what they like. There are no rules. If that is the attitude, then let us clearly say so and delete the whole section. Paragraph (iii) is nonsensical. It has been said that we want to protect the Authority. It is more important that we should protect the rights of citizens who may wish to apply. I am not at all too sure that there are not at least 1,000 camera crew units in this country who would regard themselves as qualified.

Regard themselves.

They should be entitled to apply. The Authority may not consider them qualified. In that case, it is open to the Authority to pick the best it can find.

Supposing they do not apply.

We are living in a country in which there is unemployment.

Not amongst television camera crews.

I think we should reconsider this on Report Stage. If the Minister is afraid the Authority may lose an outstanding man, I should be quite prepared to see inserted here something akin to what has been provided in subsection (4) of Section 13: "Notwithstanding the foregoing subsections of this section the consent of the Minister shall be necessary before the Authority appoints or removes..." In other words, the Authority might, with the consent of the Minister, waive the necessity for public advertisement in a special case. Surely, we are legislating here for the exception. Frankly, I cannot see what the exception is. It is more important that we should ensure that the rights of all our citizens are protected.

The Chair understands that the Senator is willing to withdraw his amendment.

No. I ask the Minister if he is prepared to reconsider this.

It is the easiest thing in the world to take a distorted view of a provision of this nature. This is a public authority, whose function it will be to provide a service for the public. Surely the public are entitled to have their television service manned by people of outstanding ability. It would be foolish to hamstring the Authority in a matter of this kind. You are either for or against this paragraph (iii) of sub-section (2). I can see no reason why I should put a time limit on it or anything like that. Senator Barry asked me that question. It should be left as it is. We should give the Authority the power included in that paragraph (iii). It may appear to be breaking new ground but I should like to point out to the Seanad that, in general, the statutory boards here have not hitherto been required by law to recruit their staffs by public competition——

Oh, yes they have.

It is not written into the Act.

Yes, it is, in the Transport Act of 1950.

That is just one. Many of them are entitled to recruit their staffs as they usually do. Public competition is not ruled out under this section. It is provided for. The Section proposes to give the Authority power to decide for itself when a public competition is likely to get people to take part in that competition. We want to give the Authority that power to employ certain classes of people whom you will not get through public competition. I cannot see why Senators want to hamstring this Authority. I want to give the Authority the greatest possible freedom of action. I do not want to be interfering with the business of the Authority, if I can avoid it. I want them to be free to use their own judgment to decide when it is necessary to have a public competition and when they should go after a particular individual and employ him because of his outstanding ability in some particular field.

I fully agree with the statement and argument put forward here by Senator Hayes in this regard and I think the Seanad would not be doing the correct thing in forcing me to hamstring this Authority in this matter.

To some extent, I think we are overlooking one of the principal purposes for which this Bill was introduced because, as I understand it, one of the advantages and one of the reasons why the Bill has been generally welcomed is that this will be an independent Authority. We are to have an Authority which is, as far as possible, completely independent of the Government to run the broadcasting services. For years past there has been agitation for an independent Authority. The criticism has often been made of Radio Eireann that it is too much under the thumb of the Government. Now we are to have an Authority which will be independent and which will be able to run the broadcasting services as it thinks fit and which will be no longer hamstrung by red tape, no longer under what some people describe as the dead hand of officialdom. That is the advantage of this Authority and that is why it has been generally welcomed but this amendment seems to be designed to undo a lot of the advantage. It seems to be designed to hamstring the new Authority, to introduce more red tape and more competition instead of allowing the Authority to be independent, as it is intended to be, to carry out its own affairs as it thinks fit.

From the practical point of view I think there can be no doubt that there will be cases where the Authority will have to "go after" suitable people. There will be cases of positions in the new Authority for which very few people, if any, would be suitable in this country and if the Authority is to provide a first-class service it will have to go out and search for such people, negotiate with them and come to an agreement with them. Many of them are people who would not even see an advertisement if it were put in the papers here and I think there would be definite curtailment of the powers of the Authority if we accept this amendment. Quite definitely, it would affect the quality of the service which we hope to get from the new Authority.

Consequently, I believe this amendment is a very bad one and if it were accepted the Authority would find itself bound to have public competitions while in practice they would realise that such a competition for a particular post would be only a farce. They would have to go through the motion of holding a public competition which everybody would realise was a farce and which would in fact turn out to be such. They would have to go out and implore the person to make an application; they would have a kind of bogus examination and the person concerned would be awarded the post. That is the kind of thing that would happen if this amendment were carried. I would ask the Seanad to take a practical view of this, to realise that there will be posts which will have to be filled by going out and searching for the right people and that if the amendment were accepted the service provided by the Authority would definitely suffer.

I am in favour of this amendment. I think it is a retrograde step if we allow public posts to be filled without any examination or interview. No wonder people are losing faith in their own country and emigrating. No wonder two out of every three students attending the university at the present time are preparing to emigrate because it is known now that it is not what you know but who you know that will count if you are to get a position in this country. If we are using the taxpayers' money— as we shall be—for this television service there should be public examinations and interviews and every citizen should have an equal chance of getting a post provided he is qualified.

We have been told by the Leader of the House that we want the best available cameramen and newsmen. If you have an examination, you will get applications; if you put an advertisement in the papers and it is read by people throughout the thirty-two counties, have you not a better chance of getting these people to apply than if you said to somebody: "Do you know So-and-So? Would he fit this post; if so, we will give him the job." I think there is a much better chance in the first case.

This seems to be a new departure, if you want to get the best brains and ability. Not so long ago under the present Government a man named Bob Tisdall who was educated at Cambridge University and who got degrees in forestry which nobody in this country held and who, instead of competing for England in the Olympic Games when asked to do so, said: "No, I shall compete for my own country, Ireland," applied for a post here. He had an interview in Irish and failed and he had to go abroad. At that time, the authorities did not seem to be looking for the best brains and ability. That man now has one of the best-paid posts in South Africa. If the Government wanted experts at that time, there was an expert, a man who chose to represent his own country instead of representing England. It seems that you did not want the expert at that time. The Irish language was used, perhaps, to put another individual into that position, whom you wanted in the position at that time.

That is the best argument against the amendment so far.

Senator Ó Maoláin has submitted that there is no fear of sons of Dáil Deputies. I was a member of the Tourist Board a few years ago. Out of eight positions in a certain department, seven were daughters of Fianna Fáil councillors. I have no hesitation in saying that. I would not mind that, provided they were the best qualified, but they were not the best qualified. They got there because there was what is on the doors of Leinster House, "push" and "pull". We do not want to see that sort of thing introduced in the new television service. We want a television service that will be a credit to everybody. The same thing happened in relation to a public position a few years ago, in the Government Information Bureau. A man walked into a position carrying £1,500 a year. There was no interview, no public examination. We all know what his politics were. We want to get away from that.

I claim that the only way to get the best brains and people of outstanding ability is by advertising in the national Press and by having an examination and an interview board. The Minister has stated that they want people of outstanding ability and that they should not be hamstrung. The Minister has very little faith in human nature and in interview boards. If you set up an interview board comprised of the proper type of persons and if there are candidates with outstanding ability, they will get the positions. They certainly will get the positions if you are prepared to pay no heed to their political views. I am in favour of the amendment.

It seems to me that some of the members on the other side are not serious about this amendment at all, because, if they were, we would not have heard the contradictory arguments we have heard. For instance, the last Senator who spoke mentioned the case of a forestry expert who, he said, could not get a job in his own country because he had to submit himself to certain public test.

I said that you are changing it now. There was a reason at that time. You wanted to give the job to another man.

He was not able to get a job in his own country. Is that not the very best argument that could be put forward in favour of the section and in favour of rejection of the amendment?

I said you are changing from that. At that time, you wanted to give it to another man.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Order!

You wanted to give it to another man.

I listened very carefully, patiently and attentively to the Senator and to all the other Senators who have spoken and I wish he and they would listen to me for a brief moment. I am just emphasising that the speech we have listened to from the Senator is the best argument that could be put forward for subsection (2) (iii), because we want to leave a certain amount of freedom in the hands of the new Authority to choose a man or woman whom they consider an expert for a certain job. If that freedom had been there in the case of the forestry expert who had to emigrate, perhaps he would not have had to emigrate; he might have got the job.

The Senator was making the point that his politics were wrong.

I want to refer to Senator Quinlan's attitude. He told us early in the discussion that he was prepared to waive this amendment in favour of the suggestion that had been put forward by Senator Sheehy Skeffington; in other words, that the words "public advertisement" would be substituted for the words "public competition". We find that he is not doing it, that the Senator wants to stick to his amendment. We do not know where we stand. Having regard to the confusion that has entered into this discussion, our attitude and our decision is to stick to the section as it is and that is also the attitude, as far as I can gather, of the Leader of the Opposition, Senator Hayes.

There is a little freedom on this side of the House.

I am prepared, as one individual, to attach importance to what a Senator of experience will put forward here.

There has been a good deal of confusion, as Senator Ó Ciosáin has remarked, and I think he has added considerably to that confusion. Let us be very clear as to what is involved in this amendment. First of all, in subsection (i) we provide that the Authority shall appoint so many persons as officers and servants of the Authority by means of a public competition. Public competition can take a variety of forms. We must get clear in our minds what is meant by a public competition. First of all, it is open to the public; it is not confined to a particular section. Secondly, there is competition. That means that various people enter and compete with one another on the basis of their qualifications and the best person is selected.

There are different ways in which public competitions can be held and the Oireachtas has already decided, in 1956, the form it considers desirable for public appointments. We find a definition in the Civil Service Commissioners Act, which deals not only with the Civil Service but with the Army, the Garda and other bodies for which it may be required to recruit from time to time. The definition is that competition may consist of one or more of these types of test—a written examination, an oral examination, an interview, a practical examination or any other test or tests considered by the Commissioners to be appropriate.

That definition of public competition would seem to be perfectly ample to meet any of the requirements of the Broadcasting Authority because the Broadcasting Authority, obviously, would not have a written examination for a director of an orchestra, but it can have an interview or, in relation to producers and script-writers, it might not have interviews or anything else but might prescribe a test to see what their form is.

As I said at the beginning of this debate, I am quite prepared to agree that there are certain kinds of posts where you would not have a competition, where it might be desirable to get somebody like a cartoonist or somebody like a director of music for the symphony orchestra for a period of five years, but that is not the kind of thing this section deals with. The section makes an exception to the appointment of permanent officers of the Authority.

The first part of the section deals with officers and servants of the Authority and later on, we find in Section 15 reference to a pension scheme. There is no objection whatever to selecting a cartoonist or a camera crew on the basis of short-term contracts, or guest conductors or guest producers of plays, and so on, for short terms. I am perfectly clear from what the Minister says that if there is an outstanding Shakespearian actor whom it is desirable to get, from Britain, let us say, he will certainly not spend the rest of his days with the Radio Éireann Authority because, if he were an outstanding Shakespearian actor, that is not where he will want to end his days.

I cannot see that any argument has been adduced by the Minister, or anybody else, which justifies this House in authorising the public Authority to recruit people like announcers, members of the Choral Society, singers, musicians, actors and so on, when it is clear from experience that these people can be selected on a basis of some kind of marking system in a competition. It has been the practice in this country, and legislation has decided that in regard to all the semi-State bodies which have been established public competition is necessary, but there is provision to permit of the appointment of the exceptionally qualified person whom you might not get by public competition.

In regard to the public service you have public competition—that is, competition open to everybody. You also have confined competition within the service for limited kinds of promotions to higher grades, limited to people already in the service by way of promotion, and then you have the other kind of appointment which is not by open or confined competition— what is known as an appointment made in the public interest. That appointment is made by a Minister with the approval of the Government but, mark you, the Oireachtas has always been solicitous for the welfare of the whole of the people of Ireland and, consistent with efficiency, it has been able to have these public appointments subject to the safeguard that on the occasion of every appointment in the public interest it is published in Iris Oifigiúil.

By Government Order.

That is the safeguard which exists and it is as clear to me as daylight, from what the Minister has said as to his interpretation of this section, that if the Authority proceed to recruit without holding a public competition, it is wide open to patronage and to other malpractices. I cannot see any reason why the section should not be completely redrafted. Talk about clumsy drafting by a person who has only a few days to draft an amendment, who has not all that time; this is a section which comes from the Minister's Department and, apparently in order to get rid of the thing, it is done in a haphazard fashion.

What the Minister has said is that there are certain kinds of appointments where you could not have any competition at all—competition did not enter into it—where you could enter into a contract with the director of a foreign orchestra to serve here for a period of five years. That position should be dealt with separately in the section and should not be brought in under Section 3——

Under paragraph (iii).

——paragraph (iii) of subsection (2) under which there is no competition. With the minimum amount of advertising publicly of vacancies for actors in the Repertory Company and for singers in the Choral Society, or of vacancies in any other part of the service, if the Authority are satisfied that a competition is not desirable, then at least fair play will have been done by everybody interested or qualified for the particular appointment; but where, as this stands, a vacancy may arise, say, in the Repertory Company, and it can be filled privately by the Director-General, then other people who might be better qualified will never know the vacancy existed. I do not think that is something of which this House should approve.

It has been questioned why I have not acted on the suggestion of Senator Sheehy Skeffington and withdrawn the amendment. I have not, simply for the reason that to insert what Senator Sheehy Skeffington proposes would depend on the Minister indicating he was willing to reconsider the section for the Report Stage. The Minister has clearly indicated he is not doing that. Consequently I have no other course but to stand over my amendment. Senator Kissane apparently thought he scored a bull's eye with the Tisdall case but surely he should be aware that what kept Mr. Tisdall from applying at that time was the little notice at the end that candidates must pass a test in oral Irish.

I did admit that.

That automatically confined the field to those who had oral Irish at the time. In this there is no such thing as provision for a qualifying test in oral Irish and I think that is all to the best. I am as enthusiastic about Irish as anybody but it should not be used merely for the purpose of filling jobs. To that extent what is done in this Bill is welcome, but Senator Hayes has been quoted and if I interpret him correctly he spoke of the narrow definition of what is meant by public competition, not the very broad definition just given now by Senator O'Quigley. That is something we have missed in this debate—the very fine definition he read out which embraced, as I expected it would, all forms of means suited to the job in hand.

I might add that I have as much experience, perhaps more, than most Senators in filling positions because we are constantly filling positions in the various university bodies. We have public competitions but generally it could be said a competitioin boils down to the fact that there is only one obvious man. There might be a second reasonably close to him but it is rarely we get two close together. Five or six may apply thinking they are qualified for the job but it is obvious that three or four of them are not in the same class as those at the head of the list, but still we do our duty. They are given the chance to apply and we appoint the best man.

You go through the form.

Wait now——

It is a farce.

The Chancellor of the University would never tolerate that.

I object to that statement by Senator Ó Maoláin.

It is a most untrue statement.

The Chancellor would never tolerate it.

The system we have in this country is the most open. It is the fairest system we have and everybody knows precisely what candidates face. When the Public Appointments Commission makes a recommendation, who knows whether the Minister concerned takes No. 3, 4 or 5 on the list? If we did know we might have other doubts, other thoughts on public appointment competitions. Senator Ó Maoláin is closely connected with the Tourist Board and he knows that when they wanted to appoint a Director of the Board they advertised very widely. I remember reading the advertisement at the time, and they came up with an excellent man. Perhaps he was obvious before but it was only right and proper that everybody should have had an opportunity of applying for the position.

As far as all these exceptional cases that have been mentioned are concerned, they can all be covered under Section 4. The only exception I can see is where a bit of poaching is done; there is a specialist working with some other company and you whisper to him: "Would you like to come and work for us?" If he is an actor, a two-year contract, with the possibility of being made permanent, would be as attractive to him as being guaranteed full pensionable rights. Again, I would appeal to the Minister to reconsider this section for the Report Stage.

We all want to make this Authority work and to give the members as much scope as possible to get people with talent, to get the best people they can. I spoke in favour of the Minister's viewpoint and I think it has been made clear that it is possible to give the provisions of paragraph (iii) of subsection (2) a very wide interpretation. The Minister himself has given it a peculiarly wide interpretation. We could conclude this discussion if the Minister would say, in the light of what he has heard here, that he will see if anything can be done to bring the section more into line with what everybody wants, that people who have qualifications for posts will be able to apply for them as a result of an advertisement but that if the Authority want to appoint people to positions of a specialist nature they should have freedom to do that and not be confined to a public examination. If the Minister would reconsider that for the next Stage he probably would be able to do something about it; otherwise this discussion could go on forever.

In this section we are going further in the matter of employment of staff by public competition than we have ever gone before in any of the other Acts setting up semi-State authorities. Not one of the semi-State authorities is compelled by law to hold public competitions, but they all do. The Transport Act was quoted here as an Act in which there is a statutory provision compelling the board to hold a public competition but that is confined to the clerical staff.

We are not asking anything extraordinary in this section. As I have pointed out, we are going further than ever before in relation to the employment of staff and that in itself should be an indication to Senators that paragraph (iii) of subsection (2) is not capable of the wide interpretation which some Senators are putting on it.

I mentioned the case of individuals drawn from certain classes. I had in mind outstanding individuals who may be drawn from those classes. There is nothing to prevent the Authority holding a competition for any and every post, and I am sure they will. They will hold public competitions for the established posts which will be available there but not for posts for which they deem it would be futile to hold a public competition. Newspaper men do not sit for public competitions, as I have said. Senator Murphy drew a comparison between what will happen under Section 12 and what happens in the Office of Public Works. It would be better to draw a comparison between what we propose to do here and what happens in the other broadcasting authorities throughout the world, and we are not giving this authority power to do any more than that. All we want to do is to give the Authority freedom of action in exceptional circumstances, and I do not think the amendment should be pressed.

Question put: "That the paragraph proposed to be deleted stand part of the Section."
The Committee divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 18.

  • Ahern, Liam.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Cole, John C.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Ó Ciosáin, Éamon.
  • Ó Grádaigh, Seán.
  • Ó Maoláin, Tomás.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Farnan, Robert P.
  • Fitzsimons, Patrick.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Peter T.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Teehan, Patrick J.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Louis.

Níl

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Burke, Denis.
  • Carton, Victor.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Crowley, Patrick.
  • Davidson, Mary F.
  • Hayes, Michael.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McGuire, Edward A.
  • Murphy, Dominick F.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Keeffe, James J.
  • O'Quigley, John B.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Quinlan, Patrick M.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Tunney, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Senators Carter and Louis Walsh; Níl: Senators L'Estrange and O'Quigley.
Amendment declared lost.
Question proposed: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill."

This is probably the most important section of the Bill because it deals with the staffing of the new Authority. There are two very important principles involved here. There is the one with which we have been dealing exhaustively, the question of competition, and so on. I do not want to go into that again. The other important matter is the question of the transfer of existing staff of Radio Éireann to the new Authority. Can the Minister tell us whether an option will be given to the people who are at present employed in Radio Éireann? Will they have the choice of going into the new Authority or will they simply have to follow their present work?

Another aspect is that some of these people are civil servants. They are employed by the Government and have a certain security of tenure. I think they cannot be dismissed.

I do not wish to interrupt the Senator but all that will arise on the next section.

An amendment to Section 13 will deal with some of it. Does the Minister mean amendment No. 11?

Yes. I am making a statement on that. Perhaps Senator Murphy would wait until then?

I want to make one observation on the section because this has to do with recruitment. It has been observed that the usual stipulation in statutes setting up statutory authorities that employees should have a knowledge of Irish is not contained in this section. The only thing I want to ask the Minister is whether this fact represents a change in Government policy in relation to a knowledge of the Irish language in recruitment to public authorities?

It does not indicate any change in Government policy but I do not think it would be right to circumscribe the Authority in its choice of an outstanding individual in some other field. It is not a change in the general policy of the Government in regard to Irish.

Question put and agreed to.
Business suspended at 12.55 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.
SECTION 13.

As my contribution towards trying to end the Committee Stage, I am prepared to postpone moving amendment No. 10 in my name.

Amendment No. 10 not moved.

I move amendment No. 11:—

To add to the section a new subsection as follows:—

( ) Nothing in this section shall operate to abolish or diminish the rights of any officer or servant who, immediately before the establishment day, was an officer of the Minister employed in the broadcasting service.

This amendment has been put down, as the Minister has already indicated, for the purpose of getting information. Section 12 clearly gives the Authority power to employ anybody at present employed in the broadcasting service. At the same time, Section 13, subsection (3), gives the Authority power to remove any officer or servant of the Authority from being an officer or servant of the Authority. There are people employed in Radio Éireann at present who are established civil servants and who were seconded to the broadcasting service. Since it is a Government service, they now enjoy the same terms as civil servants. They hold their office at the will and pleasure of the Government. They have, for all practical purposes, complete security of tenure. But they are now being removed to an Authority which is not the Government and which may not necessarily observe the same rules and traditions as the Government observe. It could happen, in theory at any rate, that their tenure of service could be altered.

I put the amendment down for the purpose of ascertaining what it is intended to do with the present established staff of Radio Éireann. For example, as Senator Murphy asked, will a person get an option, if he does not want to transfer to the Authority? May he remain in the Civil Service or will he get, as was arranged in certain other cases, some compensation for loss of office? As the Commission indicated in its report, the people employed in Radio Eireann are of various character from the point of view of tenure. Some of them are established civil servants; others are unestablished civil servants, called temporary civil servants. But even as temporary civil servants, they enjoy, by usage and practice, certain rights. These may be altered when they are transferred to the Authority. Others are working under contracts, such as actors, musicians and so on.

I do not want to delay, but I hope the Minister will have something to say about this. I am not clear myself, from the terms of the Bill or of the explanatory memorandum, what precisely the position of the staff in Radio Éireann will be when the transfer takes place. I recognise at once that there are a number of difficulties because the staff in Radio Éireann at present holds in a number of different ways. The Minister may enlighten us on that.

I should say at once that no general service or departmental staff will be obliged to accept permanent transfer to the Authority. They will merely be seconded to broadcasting and television for a short period, in the first instance, and they can then consider whether they wish to remain there permanently. The specialist programme staff, of course, recruited specifically for broadcasting could not generally have the option of going to other Civil Service Departments but that particular problem is most unlikely to arise. I do not see any difficulty about their remaining in Radio Éireann under the new Authority.

I shall elaborate briefly on the position of established and unestablished staff. I hope that suitable arrangements can be made in a contributory scheme under which unestablished officers who transfer permanently to the Authority will still be eligible for privileges equivalent to the main superannuation privileges they would have had, if they had remained in the Civil Service.

As to other conditions, I think it would not be right for me to impose them on the Authority in legislation or otherwise. If I did, I am afraid it might make it impracticable for the Authority to retain a general body of civil servants because the needs of television may be different in some respects from those of the Civil Service. It would certainly not be in the interests of the civil servants themselves if the Authority were prevented by unworkable conditions from giving the civil servants a choice of remaining or going. I feel quite certain that the whole staff will be anxious to remain in Radio Éireann, that the Authority will be willing to retain them, and that conditions will not present any difficulty.

As to unestablished programme staff, I am glad to say that negotiations are proceeding satisfactorily in regard to a pension scheme for which they have been pressing for a considerable time. The details are in a very advanced stage of consideration through the Civil Service conciliation machinery and the scheme may actually come into operation before the Television Authority is established.

The remaining staff—that is, doorkeeper and messenger staff and servants generally——

Unestablished staff.

Yes. All that staff are regarded as seconded from the Post Office and it will be a matter for the Authority and the men themselves as to whether they will be transferred to broadcasting and television. As I said, I do not feel that there will be any real difficulty about the transfer conditions of the staff but it would be inappropriate to commit the Authority in advance to conditions for any of its staff.

Senator Hayes raised another issue. He referred to subsection (3) of Section 13. All I wish to say is that the Government have authority to remove a civil servant from office for certain reasons and we are giving the Authority the same power for the same reasons, and nothing more. There is no other explanation for subsection (3) of Section 13.

This is a new Authority which is, as was pointed out here today on another amendment, neither a public body nor a private concern. All State concerns are something in between. Civil servants hold office at the will and pleasure of the Government. Strictly speaking, it would appear they have no security of tenure, but, in fact, with the exception of very odd cases, civil servants have complete security. It does not seem quite sound, on the face of it, that the new Authority should get precisely the same powers as a Government. The Government, after all, act on a tradition which goes back not only to the beginning of the State but back into the traditions of the British Civil Service. The Minister has told us—this is really the answer to my point—that established civil servants in Radio Éireánn will not be compelled to go to the Authority.

That is correct.

Any who opt to stay, or any who opt to go, will do so in the knowledge of the existence of subsection (3).

That is correct.

Does the contributory scheme for pensions apply to established civil servants?

It will, but we shall make provision in the established civil servant's pay to enable him to pay the contribution.

At present, of course, they enjoy a non-contributory scheme.

They will continue to enjoy it. We have not finally worked out the method yet.

It is conceivable that a clash of opinion on policy could result in an officer being dealt with severely. Is there any appeal to the Minister in such a case, or would the Minister consider providing some safeguards, because the normal Civil Service reasons might not be the reasons which would cause an officer to lose his appointment under this Authority?

There is no provision of that kind. I do not think a case of that nature could warrant dismissal. If it were gross insubordination, the civil servant leaves himself open to dismissal by the Government. I cannot see a case arising under this Authority where a man would be dismissed because he was not satisfied with the policy he was being asked to operate.

It could.

I cannot see the Authority dismissing a man because he does not agree with the policy of the Authority. I cannot see that arising at all.

I could.

I cannot see the Authority dismissing a man because he did not agree with the policies of the Authority. Even the established civil servant who opts to remain with the Authority is doing a certain job and he will continue to do that, even though he does not agree with the policy of the Authority. It is not envisaged that there would be disputes on policy between the Authority and members of the staff of the Authority.

May I suggest that the question now being discussed does not properly arise on this amendment? It might be dealt with on the section but not properly on the amendment.

Does the amendment not refer to "any officer or servant who, immediately before the establishment day, was an officer of the Minister employed in the broadcasting service"? Is everybody in the broadcasting service not an officer of the Authority?

No. The question discussed in the past few minutes is the power to remove from office and the right to appeal.

That is correct.

If the House is agreeable, we could take the section and the amendment together.

This seems to be the main point of the section anyway.

Yes, that is Section 13.

I welcome the Minister's statement on this matter. I suppose it would be impossible to make a critical reply to it at this stage but I take it that the question of transferring these people and preserving their rights is the subject of continuing discussion with the trade unions and associations representing them. That brings me to another and very important aspect of the situation. The people who are being given the opportunity to go into the new Authority have been in many cases established civil servants and have been associated with a tradition of negotiation, discussion and of reaching settlements by such processes—in other words, established negotiating machinery. As I see it, the trade unions or associations representing these people, and which have catered for them up to now, cannot follow them into the new Authority because of whatever conditions are applied to associations representing civil servants. I have had some experience of that in another field, transport, and I found there that the tradition which existed of discussion and negotiation and the acceptance on the management side of a certain degree of security of tenure is rather different when you go to outside undertakings.

I should like the Minister to consider what arrangements should be made or what obligations should be put on the new Authority, first of all, in regard to recognition of new trade unions which must represent these people in future and secondly, regarding the establishment of negotiating machinery. I think the latter point is particularly important because here we have a very important service. All of us representing either management or labour would wish that service to be conducted without strikes, threats of strikes or anything like that. The best way of achieving that is, first of all, to secure recognition of trade unions representing the staff and secondly, to have established negotiation machinery agreed between the new Authority and the unions.

The people now going from Radio Éireann have that tradition, through their existing associations, of discussion and negotiation. I hope the Minister will consider whether the legislation should not provide that the new Authority should establish negotiating machinery for its employees. That sort of obligation applies to public transport under the 1924 legislation and, in my opinion, it has helped to keep public transport relatively free from strikes. It would be, I think, everybody's wish and hope that the new Radio Éireann would be quite free from strikes and that differences between the Authority and the employees or the unions representing them could be settled amicably. The best way of securing that would be to establish negotiating machinery. I would ask the Minister to consider that aspect of the matter between now and the Report Stage. I think it would be to the benefit of the Authority and the workers if that obligation were put on the Authority.

Senator Murphy has anticipated me on the question of providing some scheme of arbitration and conciliation for the new staff of the Authority. It seems to be rudimentary in modern times that such machinery should be established and I hope the Minister will indicate that it will be the duty of the Authority to provide it.

Senator Murphy has already dealt with paragraph 168 of the Report of the Television Commission in his statement that the association representing Irish actors claimed in evidence that they should have the right to negotiate on behalf of members engaged in television. Later on, the Report reads:

It was stated—and the point was emphasised in evidence—that no member would take part in any transmission of the new television service unless a contract embodying certain minimum specified terms had first been agreed upon.

It seems to be entirely correct on the part of the Irish Actors' Association that they should insist on their rights to negotiate on behalf of their members and I hope the television Authority will have the wisdom to concede that right to them or to any other association or trade union that may be formed to cater for existing members of the staff. It has always been recognised that, since the conciliation and arbitration machinery was introduced for the Irish Civil Service by the inter-Party Government in 1950, it has conferred new benefits on the Civil Service and upon the public service as a State institution. It has promoted harmony and efficiency in the public service and I hope the Minister will be able to indicate that it is the intention that that type of machinery which has been established, including arbitration, will be provided by the new Authority for its staff.

In regard to the section generally, it seems to me that the present staff of Radio Éireann will be provided with a very difficult personal choice under this section because it is not being provided that they will be transferred to the new Authority with no less favourable conditions than they have at present. The Minister has to some extent allayed my fears that such people, who have a non-contributory pension scheme up to now will have only a contributory pension scheme in the future, when he says that their salaries will be raised to the extent of the contributions they have to pay. I am glad that the Minister has seen proper to concede that measure of justice to those people who will become members of the contributory pension scheme.

It is all right to say that these people will be given an option of transferring over to the television service. The option is Hobson's choice. That should not be forgotten. If a person is first violinist in the Radio Éireann Orchestra or a producer who is not already an established civil servant, he has no other form of employment which he can take up which will be as secure and as permanent as the employment he now has and, therefore, he is compelled, whatever the conditions are, to go over to the new Authority. The provision in legislation in regard to the transfer of staff from the E.S.B., in regard to the transfer of staff from the old railway companies into the newly formed C.I.E., whereunder these people either got compensation for the worsening of conditions or, if they were not satisfied with the conditions, were entitled to retire on pension, should be applied in this case. There is no option and I think the Minister might consider strengthening this section in the direction of giving these people an option to transfer on the basis of their existing conditions of service. If that were in the section, I think all the difficulties would be resolved.

With regard to the power of dismissal, a statutory body has no authority to do anything except what it is specifically authorised by statute to do. If it is authorised to employ people, it cannot dismiss people unless it is given authority to dismiss. That is the basic reason for subsection (3) but there is a substantial difference between dismissal by the Authority and dismissal by the Government. It has always been held by people in the public service that the processes through which the case for dismissal of a civil servant has to go provide the greatest security for the tenure of office of public servants. In the first place, they have to deal with the permanent head of their Department. The permanent head has to make up his mind. In the Radio Éireann Authority the permanent head corresponds with the Director-General. The officer then has a right to appeal to his Minister.

It is well recognised and well known that Ministers do at times take a more humane and more lenient view of things than those who are obliged to administer fairly strict regulations but, after the matter has gone from the Minister, if the Minister decides that there exists a case for dismissing a civil servant, it then goes to the Government. My understanding of the position in relation to all established civil servants is that Governments do not regard the dismissal of even the lowest grade civil servant as a matter of no consequence, that it is the subject of quite an amount of consideration by the Government, and there is always the chance that, Governments being used to taking the broad view of things, the more merciful and more lenient view will be taken in particular cases.

Therefore, as the Minister has reserved so many powers to himself in this Bill, the power of exercising mercy and giving a right of appeal to a member of the Authority would not be at all out of order. It is certainly a kind of Ministerial discretion that I should like to see operated in the Bill and it would not cause an undue burden on the Minister because the number of occasions, I confidently anticipate, on which he would be called upon to exercise his discretion would be very few indeed. The Minister might, in the light of the debate upon this section, consider some amendments on the lines which have been suggested by the speakers to date.

When speaking on subsection (3) of this section we must bear in mind that the officers and servants of the Authority will not be civil servants. They lose their status as civil servants as soon as they become servants or officers of the Authority and I do not think that it would be proper that a Minister of State should take upon himself the power of vetoing the decision of the Authority in the matter of a dismissal of this nature.

In regard to the conditions under which the servants and officers of the Authority will accept their appointments under the Authority, it will be far better to have that arranged at conciliation level rather than to restrict the Authority in dealing with this question by writing into the legisation a compelling clause dealing with that specific matter. I believe that civil servants, established and unestablished, would be more satisfied with their own arrangement, arrived at by agreement between themselves, under this conciliation machinery.

I think the Authority should not be obliged under the statute to provide this conciliation machinery for dealing in the future with their own staff. I assume that that is the method by which they will deal with the staff. Public bodies, semi-State bodies in this country, deal with their staff in that manner at the moment. The same conditions are not existing with this Authority as existed with C.I.E. C.I.E. was an institution already in existence and they had a method there of dealing with their staffs going back over a long number of years. They had to fit into the negotiation machinery new people who were taken in, as well as the older people who were there already, and the old method and the new method. They had to try to arrive at an arrangement that would satisfy everybody.

In this case it is a new Authority and, if we leave it to the Authority to do this particular work themselves, without restricting them or writing it into the legislation—I want to give them the freedom of dealing with their staff in that manner—I believe you will get better results.

I do not wish to prolong the debate on this matter but I just want to point out that it is not correct to say that it is the practice of other public undertakings to have negotiating machinery. It is only where it has been obligatory on them by the legislation—in the case of C.I.E. under the 1924 Railways Act, and in the case of the E.S.B., under the legislation establishing the board. In other semi-public organisations—speaking off the cuff—there is not this internal negotiating machinery. So, we cannot see that there is that evidence, that desire, on the part of this sort of organisation to have that internal negotiating machinery. I refer to Bord na Móna, Irish Shipping, Aer Lingus——

Bord Fáilte.

I cannot think of any of them that have this sort of internal negotiating machinery, which I think would be good, not alone for the employees, but also for the new Authority.

So far as I am concerned, I hope this Authority will follow the good example shown by the authorities which have conciliation machinery.

There is only one matter I do not understand and that is that the Director-General cannot be removed without the consent of the Minister. We know the Director-General is in a special position but if you have somebody who is a clerk in the Radio Éireann Authority and he is to be removed, his removal is as important to him as the removal of the Director-General is to the Director-General. I cannot see why the Minister will not include in subsection (4) of this section that no officer or servant of the Authority shall be removed unless the Minister consents. In the vast majority of cases no difficulty will arise. They will be clear-cut cases but there will also be the borderline cases which should be reserved to the Minister's discretion. I cannot see any reason why that should not be done.

The Director-General is appointed by consent of the Minister. The Minister comes in as far as his appointment is concerned, as well as in the case of his dismissal and in the appointment of an officer or servant the Minister does not come into the matter at all. There is that difference. I do not think there is anything further to be said on this matter. I think it will have to be left to the best judgment of the Authority. The civil servant accepting office under the Authority is taking the risk. He is taking a certain calculated risk——

Maybe an incalculable risk.

——and I do not think there is any doubt about that.

I take it on this amendment with your permission, Sir, I could allude to subsection (1) of Section 15. The Minister mentioned contributory schemes for established civil servants and a scheme for unestablished broadcasting staff. I take it the schemes which are mentioned in subsection (1) of Section 15 are those the Minister has now mentioned, that is to say, that some progress has been made in Radio Éireann to make these schemes. If that is so, presumably my amendment will be met when these schemes have been made and, if there are negotiations with the people already there, there is no reason why I should not let them do their own business. Would the Minister say is there any connection?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 12 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 15
Question proposed: "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill".

I want to ask the Minister to look at subsection (5) of this section. Under the subsection it is provided that if any dispute arises as to the claim of any person it should be submitted to the Minister for Finance whose decision shall be final. I wonder would the Minister tell us if that is a usual provision? I do not imagine it is embodied in superannuation arrangements for the staffs of other semipublic organisations that the final word is left with the Minister for Finance. Is that usual?

It is usual.

This is one of those pieces of roundabout drafting, the submitting of a dispute to the Minister for Finance whose decision shall be final. I have great objection to this roundabout business of transferring functions. A great deal of time is taken up in civil servants writing to one another. Departments become bigger and bigger as that goes on. When the Department for External Affairs got into the economic sphere, they wrote thousands of letters to the Department of Finance about things they did not understand, and never would understand, with the result that the busy officers in the Department of Finance were snowed under with work. I do not understand why there should be this circumlocutory type of procedure, or why this is pushed over to the Minister for Finance.

All "palsywalsy."

People are always talking about productivity but this is a real example of the complete negation of productivity.

Would the Minister indicate how it becomes necessary that the Minister for Finance should decide?

Because he deals with pensions.

The more you look at this Bill and the more you understand it, the more difficult it is to understand.

Would the Senator say that again?

We are establishing an Authority which is supposed to be free and supposed to have its own income to do what it likes, yet we cannot provide for a person who is being dismissed that his dismissal should be with the consent of the Minister but, once we raise the question of money for gratuities, pensions and allowances we have not alone to draw in the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs but the Minister for Finance as well. I should like to know why it is considered necessary, right, and proper to bring the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and the Minister for Finance into this kind of thing while it is not right to bring them into the question of the dismissal of a servant of the Authority.

May I suggest, with a great many years' experience of the Department of Finance, that this subsection is inserted to see that the Authority do not go too far and give too much to anybody lest perhaps the Department of Finance in subsequent negotiations with civil servants might be damnified? I do not think this is intended to give something to somebody. It is intended to see that the Department of Finance's own besetting views would be exercised here as well. If anybody is under the impression that it is a guarantee to somebody I think he is mistaken. At the same time it is very difficult to ask to have the Minister in one place and object to him in another.

It is the usual form of procedure that the Minister for Finance acts in a semi-judicial fashion on such a matter. You are dealing with superannuation schemes, pension schemes, and gratuities, and this is the method under which any dispute that arises in regard to pensions and contributory schemes is handled.

On subsection (5), and arising out of what the Minister has said, if the Minister for Finance is to act in a semi-judicial fashion in such disputes——

He always does.

——might I ask the Minister will the staff member to the dispute be entitled to lay his view before the Minister for Finance, and will his trade union be entitled to lay his view before that Minister?

In the case of disputes the answer is "Yes" to both questions.

That is a well worth while undertaking.

Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move Amendment No. 12.

Before section 16 to insert a new section as follows:—

"16.—The system of broadcasting television shall be on the 625 line standard."

Up to this stage we have been dealing with imponderable things, men, and even philosophies, but I am going now into the consumer's kitchen to talk about the machine itself. The amendment is completely unambiguous. A mistake of considerable importance will be made if we adopt the 405 line standard, and it will be a very expensive mistake. Probably 100,000 new receivers will be purchased in the new reception areas and will cost £7,000,000 or £8,000,000. We shall be compelling the people to spend that £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 on a system of reproduction which is coarse grained and obsolete, which is used by no other country except Britain, and which the British themselves would scrap to-morrow morning if they were not so already heavily involved in the expenditure on receivers. We have not spent that amount of money yet. The most elementary common sense should urge us not to make the same mistake.

The argument for the 405-line system is that the receivers now in use are receiving British stations and could not receive the Irish programmes if we adopted the 625-line system. There are 30,000 sets roughly in Dublin and some border counties. They are all within BBC range. The four cities and 20 counties will never receive BBC transmissions and the 100,000 owners of the new sets will be spending a sum of £7 million or £8 million on their purchase, and, if I understood what the Minister said the last day, we are now deciding that because of the 30,000 existing receivers in the north-east which must be accommodated, the 100,000 new viewers must put up with the obsolete system.

One speaker said on the previous day that introducing television was keeping up with the Joneses; let us at any rate keep up with the must up-to-date Joneses. If we must have diesel trains and jet planes we should not put up with steam age TV. The inevitable coming of the larger screen, very common in America, and the inevitable coming of colour television require fine line definition both in transmission and receiving. It could not be done on the 405 system and even the British may have to move forward in regard to these problems.

The most important argument in this issue is that the manufacture of the 625 line set will give our manufacturers opportunities in the export trade. They have done very well as exporters of radio sets and can do just as well as exporters of TV sets, because the whole world, with the exception of Britain, is a market. Our manufacturers have no chance of breaking into the British TV market with the 405 system because that market is saturated. There is no other market for 405 sets but they can go elsewhere, particularly into countries like Africa and South America which are going in for television, if they get the support of Parliament to produce the 625 line set. A new and approved electronic industry like this should get this opportunity now and now is the only time for decision. Afterwards it will be too late, too expensive and one of our might-have-beens.

I shall be asked: what are we to do about the 34,000 or 35,000 sets now in use? We could erect a station midway between Dublin and the Border and transmit the Irish programme on 405 simultaneously with our transmission on 625. Whatever that costs, it would be but a fraction of the whole expenditure that is being incurred and a fraction of the expenditure that will be incurred in the future if the British change from 405. If the British change, as they may well change, any argument made now will fall to the ground. If we make this change which I propose, we could accommodate the present viewers with a minor station, but our main transmission should be nothing but the best.

One of the Minister's points on the Second Reading in regard to interference and the allocation of wavelengths does not seem to be valid. The range of TV is very limited. I do not believe there are any technical difficulties that have not been overcome by adjoining European countries, and the sea surrounding us prevents our interfering with anybody in the matter of television transmission.

The Television Commission has acknowledged that the 405 line system is not the best one. The Leader of the House and many other speakers here agree that there is no political issue in this and the Minister should allow the House to decide freely on this question which is a technical one. He has been steadfast in refusing any amendment to this Bill and it would make a very good impression on the other House and on the people if we show we are prepared to consider this matter completely on its merits and indicate that we want this proposal accepted.

I do not want to appear obstinate in this matter but a decision on a line standard is a highly technical one that will have to be taken by the Minister on the best possible advice that he can get. Because of that, I do not think that this is a matter which should be decided by the Oireachtas. I have already announced in the speech on the Second Reading that the service for the Dublin area from the new transmitter in Kippure would be on the 405 line standard. That will not preclude the eventual adoption of the 625 line system if decided upon later, and certain arrangements will be made to provide for that possibility. We are not leaving that out of our calculations, but you could just as easily say it will be a very long time before the British change from 405 to 625 as to say they will change in a very short space of time. There is no evidence to show they will change.

What have the British got to do with it?

We have in Dublin a large number of people in possession of 405 sets and, if we proceed to broadcast on the 625 line system, how many of these people would purchase 625 sets at all? I do not believe any of them would. They would continue to turn the knob for the BBC and ITV and would not bother listening to our television service at all. At the moment you can get three different services on television and when the Irish system is in operation you will be able to get four. If people have 405 line sets, and we are broadcasting on a 625 line standard, a large number of people might not buy the 625 sets. That applies with equal emphasis so far as transmissions to the Six Counties are concerned. I have already stated that the service will open here on the 405-line standard and if the Bill is passed it will be my duty to prescribe, in the licence to be issued to the Authority under Section 16 (3), such technical matters as the frequency, power and standard of transmission to be adopted.

As I have said already, I do not think it would be wise for the Oireachtas to take upon itself decisions in such matters. It is a fact that we can use diesel trains and jet aircraft but there is plenty of space. The whole universe is there so far as the jet planes can go and the railway is there for the diesel engines but television broadcasting is confined to certain bands. The arrangement as to the use of the bands was reached at an international conference.

As I said on the Second Reading, in 1952 we accepted the 405-line standard.

Provisionally.

We accepted, on the basis of that arrangement, the frequencies allocated to us. Our broadcasts will be on the 1 and 3 bands. The space on the bands, or whatever way you like to put it—I may not be well up on the technical aspect—is confined. As I see it, we shall have to start on the 405-line standard and keep in mind the matter of utilising the 625-line standard if and when it is possible to do so.

At present, as Senator Barry has said, we have about 30,000 television sets in the country. Once we introduce our own television service it is anticipated that that number will increase maybe to 120,000 sets in the course of the next few years. When we have 120,000 405-line sets we may find that the British decide to change to the 625-line standard, which is very likely to happen.

The British television manufacturers will bring pressure to bear upon the television Authorities in Britain to change over to the 625-line standard purely for the purpose of stimulating production in their factories. That is the way these things happen, not uncommonly.

They have the added reason that, by doing so, people viewing television in Britain would also be able to pick up continental programmes and, more important still, would have a better picture on the 625-line standard. At that stage we would find ourselves with people having sets only three or four years old which would be obsolete. All the Minister's arguments about being able to switch on to three stations other than our own station will then fall to the ground and we shall have wasted up to £9,000,000 of Irish money on what will then be obsolescent television sets.

Presumably, since television sets are as dear as they are, they have been bought by the better-off class of people.

Question.

I take it that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is anxious that the television service should be fairly freely available to all sections of the community. As I understand the position, you get a better picture from the 625-line standard than from the 405-line standard. You can sit closer to the 625-line standard set and get good viewing than in the case of the 405-line standard set.

If you look around Dublin, how many of the houses under the Corporation provide a sufficiently large room where people can sit back and view, at optimum viewing, from the present 405-line standard set? The Minister is trying to provide that people with small rooms will be compelled to put up with a bad picture because you must have a large distance between the set and the viewer in order to get a clear definition on the 405-line standard set, whereas you can sit much closer with a 625-line standard set.

I thought the Minister would refer to the argument he brought forward in his reply to the debate on the Second Stage, namely, that the 405-line standard sets enable us to have programmes from Britain. I do not know whether or not he still thinks that is so. My information is that if we had a 625-line standard here, and British programmes continued for the next two or three years on the 405-line standard, it is only a technical process to reduce 405- to 625-pictures for the purpose of using them on our television service. In addition, it would enable our viewers perhaps to get continental programmes. I take it we will not be confined entirely merely to canned programmes from the B.B.C. and I.T.V.

Therefore, every argument based upon national economics, every argument based upon the comfort of the majority of viewers in this country, points in favour of the 625-line standard. It is incomprehensible that the Minister should take a step backwards, when he should take a step forward, by indicating that the new television service in Dublin will be based upon what is now becoming an obsolete system.

In this vital matter, we can take the items in order. First of all, technically speaking, there is no dispute that the 625-line standard is a superior medium to the 405-line standard. The 405-line standard was the first medium introduced and is now in use only in Great Britain. The International Radio Consultative Committee favours the general adoption of a 625-line standard in the European region. So much for the technical problem.

It is quite certain that England, within the next decade, will change to the 625-line standard. She would already have done so were it not for the great number of sets there. I do not know whether or not a firm decision has been taken on it but certainly it is coming up for a firm decision in England that there should be broadcasting on bands 4 and 5 on the 625-line standard. That is the start of the change-over in Britain and it will take, perhaps, at least six to ten years. In other words, they will have to continue broadcasting in Britain on the 405-line standard until the present sets there are obsolete. That will probably take the best part of ten years and, after that, you will have broadcasting there only on the 625-line standard. What does that mean?

We have been told that when England changes over to the 625-line standard we shall change. The question is: Do we wait until England has completed her change and put the 405-line standard off the air or do we begin now when she appears to be about to make a decision to change? We should begin now. One of the major impediments is the fact that there are at present 30,000 or 40,000 sets in the country and these will largely be useless for our programmes if we broadcast only on 625. We have no commitment to those people who own those sets now because we have not been collecting licence fees from them. Consequently, if the Government wish in the morning, they could declare those sets obsolete. They represent an investment that might be valued at present at about £2½ million. Perhaps, the fairer solution, although it will cost something, would be that the Government should have a limited number of years, say, three or five years, broadcasting on 625 but have dual broadcasts from the central station here and one booster station in the northern region.

That would provide for those receivers. If we do not do that, every year we put off making the change means that we shall have more 405 receivers to contend with and these will have a moral claim on the Government because they are being installed to receive programmes broadcast on 405. Whatever about dual broadcasting to-day in one, two or three years' time if we want a change, we shall be morally committed to dual broadcasts. That means that we have got to cancel out the expense of dual broadcasting either now or in five years' time. It does not matter which.

I have been informed by reliable engineers that the cost of the extra equipment would amount to somewhere around £100,000. It is not a very big sum, having regard to the sums we are dealing with. In fact, it represents only one year's rental on the sets in existence to-day. Besides that, the equipment would not be totally lost. It could be used afterwards. When we close down the 405 transmission, it is capable of providing a large range of spares for the other.

Financially, there is no argument against this dual broadcasting. I think we would be unwise to adopt just the 625 alone and that it would be unfair to those who have the sets today, but the answer for us is this dual broadcasting. There are many aspects to that. The dual broadcasting would in a way make available for ready sale many of our programmes in England which uses the 405 line standard and most continental countries which use the 625 line standard, so that it would have a slight financial recommendation there, although that is not a very serious one.

The most serious one of all is that which has been expressed so well in the Minority Report—Reservation No. 2 to the Report of the Television Commission by Mr. Hugh de Lacy and Mr. Terence Farrell. Mr. de Lacy is acknowledged as one of our leading experts on television. In fact, he was put on the Commission, I venture to say, solely in that capacity and yet he could not be more forthright in his recommendations.

Incidentally, Chapter X, which deals with line standards, as submitted by the majority, is just a mass of contradictions. I do not wish to take up the time of the Seanad in showing the contradictions in it. If members read it very carefully for themselves, they will see that there is a contradiction in every paragraph. The one thing that emerges from it is that when England turns, we shall turn.

Mr. de Lacy sums up very well when he says:

It has been suggested that the British transmissions from the B.B.C. and shortly I.T.V. in the North would offer a measure of competition to an Irish service on 405 lines particularly in regard to the quality of programmes. This we cannot subscribe to since both B.B.C. and I.T.V. programmes are based on British standards of culture and entertainment, which we submit are very different from Irish standards.

I believe every one of us here heartily agrees with that. He goes on:

To our mind there is grave danger that these British programmes may produce the very reverse of the effect anticipated and their influence may be rather to the detriment of the Irish service in the promotion of its cultural aims particularly in regard to Irish language.

Again, I think we can endorse that. Let me follow through. I think the Minister said this afternoon that our people would only go by the 405 because they can get Radio Éireann and the B.B.C. That does not hold in the region outside, in the six counties bordering on the Six Counties —the Sligo-Dublin line. There is no choice but to buy the set that receives Radio Éireann and that means the set on 625 because in this region we would be only boosting on 625. Even in the Six Counties, which are under the influence of B.B.C. television, would any sensible person in that region buy a 405 set if he knew that the B.B.C. were gradually making the change-over to 625, so that his set would not be able to pick it up in a number of years or that the Irish service had declared that after a certain number of years, three, four or five, it would cease broadcasting on 405?

The only sets bought here would be 625 sets. If adopting that programme slows down the number of sets sold, I am all for it. Do we want to push our people into personal and luxury spending? If it slows it down, it is the biggest argument in favour of it because we have been asked by every leader to try to curtail our personal spending and our luxury spending and spend the money on productive enterprises.

Therefore, I suggest, that is one more reason, if it does slow down the number of sets, for our adopting the 625 line standard. The most important reason of all is that Radio Éireann reaching its people through the 625 line standard and being out of competition in quality, the word used here, with the B.B.C., except for the present 30,000 or 40,000 sets, could then afford to ignore this quality competition. It could afford to set out to develop an Irish service, a service that would be distinctively Irish in character and quality—the type of service that we all hope for and the type of service that would mean in years to come that Irish television programmes or tapes would command a ready sale in America, England and elsewhere, due to their distinctive quality.

We shall not sell programmes here that are shadowed by the quality of the B.B.C. The people needing those programmes can buy them far better from the B.B.C. What we have distinctively Irish we can sell. Television being such a hungry medium, it would appear that there could very well be a substantial profit earned on the programmes we sell to other countries. The help given by this is, if you wish, a type of protection. Our people over the vast region cannot receive B.B.C. programmes for three, four or five years. We are giving Radio Éireann, as it were, a running start.

If somebody says that is objectionable, look at the other side of the picture. If we wait until England makes the change, then the English programme coming from U.T.V. will be on 625 and we will have 300,000 sets which after five or six years, will be able to receive Radio Éireann only. Look at it whatever way you wish, unless the change-over is completely synchronised with the British pattern, it means that at some stage or other, people north of the line, Sligo to Dublin, will be able to receive only one or other programme. Consequently, I suggest it is of vital importance that we grasp this opportunity now to get established a fully Irish television service that will truly reflect our national culture, ideals and everything else we value in this country.

To my mind, that is the greatest opportunity we have got and we should grasp it with both hands. As Mr. de Lacy so well puts it here: "It is apparent that by committing Ireland to the 405 line system we are forging another link in the chain that binds us to Great Britain." Is that the outlook and approach we should adopt in relation to this new medium which will cost so much and which we are starting off here to-day?

I do not think Senator Quinlan listened to what the Minister said when he replied to Senator Barry's introductory remarks. The Minister indicated that certain arrangements would be made to provide for the possibility of 625 transmissions in future. As one of those who spoke at length on this question of line transmission standards on the Second Stage, I was very interested in that assurance. I am satisfied that when the Television Authority becomes operational, it will give consideration to the dual transmission suggestion I made on the Second Reading and which has been repeated by Senator Quinlan. I am certain that, if they can overcome any immediate technical difficulties, they will consider having dual transmissions from the Dublin transmitter. Incidentally, I hope that in any references to this transmitting station, we shall drop that name Kippure. I would prefer it to be called the Dublin transmitter. I am quite certain that the Authority, recognising the need for keeping abreast of modern developments, will bear in mind the very substantial arguments in favour of the system which has been adopted in most European countries.

However, I am quite certain also that they cannot overlook the facts of the present position in this country. Unfortunately, we are deprived of jurisdiction over six counties of our territory. In those six counties, there are two transmitting authorities, the B.B.C. and U.T.V. They are both operating on the 405 line standard. It is of vital importance to us, apart from any other consideration, that the Irish national television service should be clearly and easily received by people who have television sets in those six counties. So long as that is the line standard used by the people who operate television there, it is axiomatic that we must follow suit. Our national programme must be transmitted on a system which will enable our people in the Six Counties to receive it.

However, that does not rule out what the Minister referred to when he said that certain arrangements would be made to provide in the future for the possibility of 625 transmissions. I hope when the Authority get down to business, that, with the expert technical advice available to them, they may decide to operate some of the other transmitters on the 625 system. I see no reason why it cannot be done, but, as the Minister said, we are all amateurs in this and do not know the technical difficulties. We have to rely to a great extent on the technical experience made available to the Government and the radio authorities.

I am convinced that the B.B.C. and the British Government are not foolish enough to indulge in the luxury of what Senator Quinlan referred to as a rapid switch-over, even within the decade of which he speaks, because of the heavy investment of British capital in the industry. They appear to be quite satisfied that they have a system which works, and works satisfactorily, and which, incidentally, does not deprive them of the Continental programmes. Senators will remember that the Eurovision transmission of the Pope's Coronation was excellently done over the B.B.C. If the British are satisfied that their system is effective and efficient, they will not throw their whole radio production industry into chaos by a sudden switch. They may do a gradual one. If they do a gradual one, we also can do a gradual one. However, I do not think there is any immediate danger. They may have it under consideration as part of a long-term programme.

Only a few months ago, March of last year according to the B.B.C. handbook, there were almost 26,000,000 people in the homes of Britain with television sets operating on the 405 standard and the number of people with sound radio but no television was down to 11,000,000. The purchase of these 405 sets is indicative of the people's belief that there will be no immediate change; and that belief is apparently held, too, by the British Broadcasting Corporation and I.T.V.

All that I have said is not an indication that I am a wholehearted believer in the 405. I am a believer in it so long as we use that transmission to cover the six north-eastern counties and, when the B.B.C. and I.T.V. switch over to 625, we have been assured by the Minister that provision will be made here for 625 transmission. We shall not be caught napping and we shall keep abreast of any developments that take place.

Another indication that there is no immediate danger and that we need not be unduly alarmed is that the B.B.C. are at the moment investigating the possibility—in fact, they have gone a stage further than investigation—of operating a second television service using the present 405 standard, the idea being that the people will have at their disposal, as they have at present in the case of sound broadcasts, a light and a heavy programme. I should not like to be as naïve as Senator Quinlan in his belief that the purchase of television receivers constitutes luxury spending. Surely he has advanced beyond the point of regarding a television set as a luxury. A television set is a necessity for keeping people abreast of world affairs—as much of a necessity as the fountain pen the Senator uses so effectively in his professional work.

As much of a necessity as bread and butter?

Senator Quinlan says we have no commitment whatsoever to the people who bought 405 sets because they do not pay any licence fees. I have listened to Senator Quinlan since he came into this House and, despite all his peculiarities, I have always had a very high opinion of his integrity and his sense of fairplay. Having heard his statement that the 70,000 or 80,000 of our people who have television sets should be brushed aside without consideration, I am coming to change my opinion somewhat.

On a point of explanation.

I did not interrupt the Senator.

He did not provoke the Senator.

Senator Quinlan wants the Government to declare these sets obsolete. I do not know how the Government could do that. There may be some method of which I am not aware. I have no doubt the Television Authority will bear all these points in mind and will ensure that we shall not lag behind development in other parts of the world. When they come to examine the technical possibilities of dual transmission and of coverage by the Dublin transmitter of the Six Counties and the northern fringe area, they may see the possibility of utilising booster stations. Nobody will be involved in any loss thereby. The Authority will, I believe, make sure that any indication of a change in the line standard in the north will be immediately dealt with here. Because of that, I think we should accept the Minister's statement and rely on the Authority keeping abreast of developments.

Even if I were convinced that the 625 line system were the best, I should still not be in favour of this amendment. Neither should I be in favour of any amendment saying that the Authority should broadcast on 405. It is quite ridiculous to try to lay down in this Bill what line standard television should be broadcast on. In the Bill dealing with Radio Éireann, there were no stipulations that it should operate on 100 or 500 kilowatts or on 531 metres, or any technical details of that kind. The same should apply here.

I think so. It would be quite wrong to tie the hands of the Authority to 625, or any particular line. We have been told that 405 is more or less obsolete. Who knows but that next year 625 will be obsolete? We should not tie the Authority to 625 under this Bill. This seems to me to be yet another effort on the part of some speakers here to tie the hands of the Authority to doing things in a particular way. One of the main purposes of the Bill is to give the Authority a free hand to operate the best possible system and manage their affairs as they think best. To impose a technical qualification like this is both absurd and impracticable.

Is the Minister not doing that in Section 16?

The Minister is not tying the Authority down.

In the light of experience and in the light of the technical advice he gets, he will eventually decide that, in all the circumstances, a particular system is the best one. The following year, he may change his mind. Are the Authority to be bound then by something in this Bill?

But he has already decided on 405.

For Dublin only.

And he may change his mind. If we accept this amendment, he cannot change his mind. He would have to bring in an amending Bill. I object to the attempt being made to tie the Authority to a particular line standard or to a particular manner in which they are to conduct their business.

There is one other point to which I should like to refer. It has been suggested by a number of speakers that if we have the 405 system here the sets people buy will very soon become useless because the BBC is about to turn over to 625 and they will not be able to get the BBC broadcasts. That is not a fact. It is quite well known—it has been announced—that when the BBC change over to 625 they are to broadcast on 405 also for many years until every 405 set in Britain has definitely become obsolete. That is certainly not a valid objection to the adoption of the 405 system here.

Senator Ó Maoláin has been discussing at great length——

Not at great length.

——the matter of the 405-line system and, indeed, has availed—as the Fianna Fáil Party avail on many occasions—of the argument of Partition.

The nonpolitical Senator is now speaking on a non-political topic.

He had to draw in Partition. I want to point out that, as far as cost is concerned, it is possible to have a television service operating on 625 and at the same time look after the interests of 405 line set-owners at no great cost. The Commission Report, which of course, has not been read by quite a number of people obviously, and which has been disregarded almost in toto by the Government in this Bill, refers at paragraph 143 to a propostal which was received to broadcast for a period, from the Dublin transmitter at least, on both 405 and 625 lines. Mark you, that was a proposal by a private interest getting no State subsidy such as is provided here. If a private interest was able to make that offer, it does not seem to me that the cost involved in going on to 625 and broadcasting on 405 for the Six Counties would be very great.

We have not got a great deal of information from the Minister on the technical aspects of this Bill. There seems to be no reason why we should not have got a White Paper setting out the technical aspect. We are not all as dull as might be thought and, after examining these things, we might be able to come to a reasonable conclusion as to whether the 625 or the 405 was the proper line-standard to adopt. Senator O'Reilly indicated on the Second Stage that he had given great consideration to this problem. He was not alone in favour of 625 but said he would favour going on to 819. If there is a division on this I hope we shall have the pleasure of seeing Senator O'Reilly sticking to his guns—

But the amendment is not for 819 lines.

Senator O'Reilly is clever enough.

In my view a very wrong principle is incorporated in this amendment and also in amendment 8 which we debated last night and in amendments 16 and 22 which Senators are going to debate sometime in the next 12 months. These amendments, and particularly the one before us, have been taking up a lot of time and will take up more time. They all refer to matters of administration rather than legislation. All these amendments are the work of these two neo-draftsmen, Senators O'Quigley and Professor Quinlan, and they are entirely concerned with administration rather than legislation. The whole principle of any Bill coming before the House is to lay down the framework or basis within which the administration can work. It is not conceived that legislation should be so restrictive as to impinge on or restrict the proper working of whatever administration is set up to operate under that legislation. The ideal thing in a Bill of this nature is to lay down the framework within which the Television Authority, with all the technical and administrative skills at their disposal, can successfully operate. Here is an amendment purely concerned with technical matters about which I certainly would not presume to know very much.

We can understand that.

If some people opposite had slightly less presumption, less arrogance and were to adopt the same attitude as we have, they might succeed in contributing more successfully to the debates here.

At the moment it is clear that the 405-line system is the one operated in Britain; the 625-line system is also that operated on the Continent. I take it, it is a technical matter for the Television Authority and for the Government to decide in the light of whatever circumstances may arise which of these systems to adopt or, conceivably—as Senator Ó Riain has said—there may be some system of 805 or 1005. That may arise with new technical developments that are particularly likely with regard to this medium.

I think it is the height of ludicrous presumption to seek to tie the hands of the Authority and the Government in regard to a technical matter of that nature. It certainly shows a weak grasp of the intention of any legislation which this or any other House may pass. If Senators who put down those amendments would bear in mind that administration is one thing and legislation another, they would realise that this amendment clearly seeks to tie the hands of the Authority in regard to a matter which is within the administrative competence of whatever Authority is set up.

If Senator Lenihan's contention were right we would not have spent some time last year discussing the investment of £5 million in jet planes because the planes we had were obsolete. The main reason for putting down this amendment was that we are disappointed with the Minister's stated decision to use this obsolete system. I know no other way of indicating to the Minister that the House and, I think, most people outside and in the North Eastern area, would prefer us to use the more advanced system. I disagree with the Minister about the propriety of the Oireachtas expressing an opinion on this matter; I disagree with the last speaker. I think it is one of our functions to criticise a decision if we think it is not the right one.

Apparently, if I understood the Leader of the House correctly, we are to look after Dublin and then we shall consider the stations to be built in areas not now served by the BBC as to whether they should be 625 transmissions. Did I hear that correctly?

Would the Senator repeat that?

That the stations built to serve the areas not now served by the BBC will be on the 625 system?

That was my suggestion to the Authority.

It is a very good suggestion and I approve of it. I am very glad to have the support of the Leader of the House on that. Line standard has nothing whatever to do with wavelength. I shall not discuss that any further. Nobody has referred to what I think is the most important point of this whole problem—the help that we shall give our manufacturers and assemblers of television sets for the home market and for export to other parts of the world where this system is the only system that obtains. That should not be laughed at and I would prefer if Senator Lenihan and Senator Ryan had referred to it.

I think this is a retrograde step. I am very sorry that the Minister seems to be adamant about it but I have a gleam of hope that every station outside the station on Kippure will be centred on 625. Really, if that is not so, there is no case for the Minister. I believe the members of the Oireachtas should make their voices known on a matter of this sort. I want to record the opinion of members of this House who want this done in this manner.

It is my view that more heed should be paid to Senator Barry in his view on this amendment than to most other people because Senator Barry has the qualification that he was the one man on the opposite side of the House who came down fairly and squarely on the Second Stage in favour of a 625 line standard. This matter was raised by way of question by the Senator who has just spoken. It was mentioned by Senator O'Quigley and by Senator Quinlan.

But, after posing the question, he left it at that. Senator Barry is one man who did come down flatly in favour of the 625 line standard and his statement here has the ring of sincerity. He impresses me as meaning what he says and, to that degree, his suggestion in regard to the part of the country south of the line Galway-Wicklow should be seriously examined. I trust the Minister and his technicians will seriously examine it. With Senator Barry, I can claim to be a person who came down flatly in favour of the 625 line standard.

In regard to Senator Quinlan, I think I would be correct in describing his Second Reading speech as coming down in favour of a no-line standard because his opening statement on Second Reading suggested that the people did not want television, that there was no demand in the country for a television service. To my mind, that was a no-line standard.

It may be technically possible in future to develop a no-line standard. Senator Quinlan will have been before his time in that regard. Senator Barry is in quite a different position. He had the moral courage to say what he did say and it took a certain amount of moral courage.

On the other hand, Senator Donegan rose after I spoke on the issue and completely opposed the question of the 625 line standard because, he said, it would render obsolete the sets in the area on a line from Sligo to Dublin. He referred to the amount of capital that has been expended on receivers in that area. On the assumption that there are 20,000 to 40,000 sets in that area, he outlined the hardship that would be involved. That is a matter which must receive serious consideration.

It is a good thing to have had on the Second Reading, and even on this Stage, an expression of opinions on this very important matter from people such as Senator Barry who hold sincere views. This can be a very controversial matter. One's views may be very unpopular. Despite the fact that my arguments were not reported in the newspapers or on Radio Éireann —and that is a good thing—I am being attacked by at least twelve people in my area—by one of them severely— for my contribution on Second Reading and because of the fact that I advocated a 625 line standard. The reason is that I live in an area north of the line Sligo-Dublin and practically all the sets that are in the country are in that area and the people there have a very keen interest in the matter.

Senator Donegan, on the other hand, is more politically wise, possibly, than I am. He did not make the mistake of taking the unpopular side. He will agree that, if he did take the same line as I took, he would be attacked by his neighbours in County Louth. As far as I can see, in that area, at least, every tenth house has a television set.

My view is that this is a question for expression of opinion on Second Reading. It would be quite wrong that Senator Donegan should try to write into the Bill that the Authority should operate on a 405 line standard. It would also be wrong that I should try to write into the Bill the 625 line standard, and I feel strongly with Senator Barry on that matter. It is a good thing to have an expression of opinion on it but it is a different thing to write it into the Bill, in which case you would be tying down the Authority and giving it no room for change in the event of technical development in this matter. Technical development in television is proceeding at a very rapid rate, as I am sure Senator Barry is aware.

People who had not committed themselves on this issue waited until the Minister gave a decision, which he announced here. Then it was safe enough to come in. It is noticeable that the people now coming in on this are all south of the line from Galway, that very few people north of that line are prepared even now to come in in favour of the 625 line standard.

It does not affect the people, say, in Cork because at the moment they are outside the fringe of the area where it is possible to get a picture. Senator Barry takes the sensible approach and is not trying to introduce an obstructionist element into the debate. I think he will agree that it would be a bad thing to write any line standard into the Bill, which would tie the Authority in this very technical matter. I am sure he will be reasonable enough to take that view and that this matter should not be pressed to a division.

As far as I am concerned, I would vote against a 405 line standard, a 625 line standard or an 819 line standard being written into the Bill. It is wrong procedure to write into the Bill any line standard. It is going into too much detail in the legislation and giving no scope to the Authority to decide. Remember, the Minister, who has his finger on the pulse of public opinion, has a say in this matter, as the standard on which the Authority will operate is provided by the licence and the Minister in granting the licence to the Authority will decide for the Authority the line standard to be used. It is not just a question of the Authority alone. I think it is Section 18 that gives the power and the right to the Minister, when granting the licence. That, of course, will be a condition of the licence to the Authority.

I made this case fully on Second Reading and I have nothing to add to it. At that time I did not think it was a matter which could even be raised on Committee Stage. It never occurred to me that any man or group of men would try to introduce such an amendment. If we were to adopt this we could go further and try to site the stations, but if we try to do that we must remember that none of us is a technician. The most any of us can claim is that he is a half-baked technician, the kind of person Senator Quinlan dislikes. The best we can say is that we have half-baked views on these matters; I say that in all honesty and such matters are better left to the Authority. It would be a very bad thing if this amendment were accepted and I hope the Minister will not accept it though there is a strong point in the argument that only at the last moment, one and a half years from now, a decision should be made with regard to the line standard.

People living in the area north of Sligo-Dublin, who already have 40,000 sets, can receive two programmes at present. It is very likely that people in that area would continue to buy 405 line sets even if we put on 625 line programmes. There is also the fact that people in the Six Counties should be able to receive our service and, if we adopt a different line standard, they could not.

I cannot accept this amendment as I have already indicated that we do not live in isolation here. We have other people to take into consideration and our services are broadcast on frequencies that are arrived at by arrangement with our neighbours. Of course we must honour our commitments in that regard and, even though it has been stated by Senator O'Quigley that there was a private interest or private group who were prepared, without any cost to the Exchequer, to broadcast on both line standards, 405 and 625, at the same time in paragraph 4 which he quoted there is a clear indication that it might not just be feasible, even to the group who were making that proposal. In all probability they may not have fully realised the fact that there was an agreement arrived at in Stockholm in 1952 under which this country accepted the 405 line standard and that any departure from that must be by arrangement, or at least notification that such a departure was being made, so that there could be another arrangement made in regard to the allocation of frequencies.

I do not want to stifle discussion on this matter. I am glad to hear opinions expressed on it; I did not say that this House was not the proper place to express an opinion. What I said was that the Oireachtas was not the proper body to make a decision, which is an entirely different matter and Senator Barry, if he presses this amendment and gets it accepted, would, in fact, be obliging the Oireachtas to make a decision compelling the Authority to broadcast on a 625 line standard.

We must take into consideration the 30,000 or 40,000 sets already in use and the desirability of having a common standard with the Six Counties. Both those considerations create problems for us but there is a bigger problem involved, the technical one of avoiding frequency interference between ourselves and Britain. As I said already, both countries were allocated channels for operation on a 405 line standard and if we depart from that standard we must protect British broadcasts at great expense to ourselves, and we must have extra transmitters. We have no evidence that the British will depart from the 405 line standard. We know it will be a long time before they do. At least that is our opinion.

Senator O'Quigley seemed to think that I should make a long statement in regard to the technical difficulties and technical problems involved. As I indicated to the House on the Second Reading, I am not a technician but as Minister I must be guided, and I am guided, by the technical advice available to me, the best possible technical advice that can be got, and on that advice I as Minister write into the licence the line standard upon which our television service shall operate. I have taken the House and the country into my confidence and have stated that, as far as the Dublin station is concerned, it will be operated on a 405 line standard. I have been perfectly candid on that matter and I cannot see any reason why I should depart from that statement.

If we adopt the amendment, we tie our hands in an extremely technical field. I want to point out to Deputy Barry that, in so far as transmission in other parts of the country is concerned, we are keeping under constant review the question of the possibility of broadcasting on a 625 line standard.

There are very grave technical difficulties involved in having dual broadcasting in this country and I am not able to say at the moment whether we can at all resolve them. I would wish the Seanad to be kind to me in this matter. I am not asking for any concessions but I am putting it to the Seanad that this is a purely technical matter upon which a decision will be taken on the best possible technical advice.

As a progressive country, we have made progress in other fields from the time we obtained our independence. Neither I nor anybody else would wish that this should be a stick-in-the-mud Authority or that this service should be an obsolete one. However, we must take into consideration all the points involved, and when I give an assurance that this matter is under constant and continuous review, we must leave it at that. I cannot see that I can give any further explanation to the Seanad. I wish it were possible to run the service on the very latest line standard but Senator Quinlan himself pointed out that Chapter X of the Television Report was a mass of contradictions. I am faced with a mass of contradictions in arriving at a decision on this highly technical question and I must rely on the best technical advice I can get.

I thank the Minister for the way he has dealt with this question. We appreciate the Minister's approach. He said on Second Reading that we were to do the best we could in exchanging ideas and that is what we are doing. Consequently, I take grave exception to the glib statements of Senators like Senator Lenihan and others who accused us of doing something wrong in putting down amendments. Senator Barry and I put down this amendment without consultation of any kind because we felt a decision had been made on this question. I would direct Senator Lenihan's attention to the Minister's reply on the Second Reading, at column 180, where he said: "In these circumstances it has been decided to open the new service on the 405 line standard."

And that it could be changed in the future.

No. That is the Minister's statement on the opening of the discussion. He did not say, as the Senator would have us believe, that it was a technical matter to be further discussed by the Television Authority. Consequently, we acted well within our rights in putting down the amendment. We appreciate, undoubtedly, the amendment is undesirable in the sense of tying the Authority down to a particular line standard but we put it down to ensure that there would be a fruitful discussion, as there has been. Now it has been shown that the matter is still wide open.

This will be a completely nonpolitical decision but it will be a very vital decision and one that can have very grave financial implications in the future. Therefore, it is well we should discuss it. None of us can claim to be infallible. However, on the question of the Minister's statement about getting the best technical advice, many of us have tried to get advisers on this. I, for one, have consulted with two universities, a public body and a couple of other people, as well as reading the report by Mr. de Lacy. It is amazing that all these first-class technical people are unequivocally on the side of either having the 625 line system or dual broadcasting.

I would therefore ask the Minister to ensure that his technical assistants and advisers range over a wide field and are the best he can get. There may be problems of interference but surely that is what we train engineers for. That is a challenge to our engineers and, if getting over those problems means having a better system, we should do our best to overcome them. In any case, if our 625 system interfered with the British, what about the expected British decision to broadcast on the 625 line system? Would that not interfere with us and would they not have to ensure that they did not interfere seriously with our service?

As regards the agreement reached in 1952, eight years ago, surely there should be no hesitation in seeking a review of that agreement if we think it necessary to do so. Eight years is a long spell in such matters and many changes take place. In connection with the suggestion that those south of the line Sligo to Dublin, all seemed to be for the 625 system, is it any wonder that we want to get the best system in that region? There are 20 counties involved in that area and we shall have to contribute at least threequarters of the cost. Is it any wonder that we try not to allow the area bordering on the Six Counties to lead us into something that is second best and into something that may lead to grave financial expenditure in the future?

I am prepared to accept the Minister's assurance that he will keep the position in mind and will do everything possible to ensure that we get the best system consistent with our demand here and a system that will give the best chance to the new Radio Éireann to develop a distinctively Irish television service. That is our requirement. I have no apology to make to Senator O'Reilly or anybody else for stating that this project is premature. I still hold, and hold strongly, that this service is completely premature and is an unnecessary encouragement to further consumer spending at a time when we can ill afford it.

Senator Ó Maoláin dealt with the viewpoint I would have expressed so capably that I merely want to endorse what he has said on behalf of the northern area and the counties fringing that area. Senator Quinlan suggests that the capital investment in television sets so far is £2,500,000. I suggest it is up to £4,000,000 in view of the fact that the figure for sets in the country is nearer to 50,000 rather than 30,000 or 40,000, or it will be 50,000 sets by the time this new system is in operation. If one estimates the value of a set at £80 each and multiplies that by 50,000 we get a figure of £4,000,000. That is a fair amount of capital investment and the people in the areas concerned are entitled to consideration if they do not pay a licence fee.

I should like to put this question to Senator Quinlan: if those people who are at present using the 405 line system continue to use it after the 625 line system has been introduced, would the Authority expect to obtain a licence fee from those people? On the other hand, would those people, because they are availing of a service outside the State, not have to pay licence duty? It should be our aim to put the service into the homes of as many of our people as possible inside and outside the State. The booster station in Benbulbin would serve Fermanagh and part of Tyrone. A tremendous number of people in the Six Counties avail of Radio Éireann, even those who may not agree with our political viewpoint. We should try to serve as many of those people as possible. The Minister should consider a further booster station, if practicable, in some part of county Monaghan to ensure that as large an area as possible of the Six Counties will receive our television service.

I understand it is not a difficult proposition to convert the present sets. I was given a figure of £20 per set. That being so, it should not be very difficult if, in ten years' time, say, the B.B.C. change over to the 625 lineage. As the Minister said, there is nothing definite. We have no knowledge that even at that stage the British will change over to the 625 lineage. I am satisfied that a great number of people with present sets would not change to the 625 lineage, if we adopted it, but would continue to avail of the B.B.C. and U.T.V. transmissions.

The hours of broadcasting from those stations will probably be much longer and the programmes will probably be more varied than we can afford to produce. If it is a fact that there are approximately 10,000,000 sets in Great Britain at present and if the licence duty is £4 per set, it represents an income of £40,000,000 per annum, which is a lot of money. It is only natural then that the B.B.C. can afford to send out very expensive programmes, much more expensive than we could possibly afford.

Senator Quinlan said that threequarters of the country cannot avail of B.B.C. reception but would have to contribute. The area to which he referred, that is, a line north of Sligo to Dublin, comprises a very substantial portion of the entire population of the 26 Counties. Dublin contains a very large proportion of the population of the 26 Counties and then there are other towns such as Dundalk, Drogheda, Navan and counties such as Donegal. While the area not being served at present may be large, it is clear that the population being served by the B.B.C. represents a considerable portion of the total.

It is stated that perhaps £9,000,000 capital may be invested within the next decade. If that figure is correct and if approximately £4,000,000 is invested at the moment, then obviously half the population are now in possession of sets. It has also been stated that the better-off class in the community have television sets. That is not my experience. If one looks around at the number of television aerials in this city one will find that quite a number are on houses which are substantially contributed to by Dublin Corporation. Many people buy their sets on the hire purchase system. They may have a reasonably good income but certainly they are not the better-off class of the community.

I appeal to the Munster Senators who have sponsored this amendment and who are not very much concerned with the position in the northern counties to consider the problem which will be presented if the other system were to be operated here. I believe many people with sets would not avail of the Dublin station and would not be prepared to change over. One must recall the number of people who listen to Radio Luxembourg in order to understand the very different tastes of the sections making up the community.

Would it not be possible to operate a dual transmission service on the 405-line and the 625-line system? Senator Ó Maoláin and other Fianna Fáil Senators today criticised members on this side of the House for putting down a particular amendment.

I did not criticise anybody.

They themselves advocated that on the last day here. Now they have shifted their ground from that on which they stood on Wednesday, 20th January last.

I did not criticise any Senator for putting down any amendment. I consider it is well that all the amendments were put down for discussion.

Many of your Senators did. If anybody cares to look at the Official Report of Seanad Éireann of 20th January last, Volume 52, No. 1, Column 50, he will see that, in the course of his speech, Senator Ó Maoláin stated:

..., I feel, from what I have read and from what I have heard, that we would operate on the 625 line system which is used by most, if not all countries in Europe outside the B.B.C. and which is certainly being adopted by practically every country which has recently established a modern television service.

He was not satisfied there and he continued:

There is a possibility, however—I discussed this with an engineer who seems to think it is feasible—that we could operate a dual transmission on the 405 and the 625 line systems, that it is technically possible to do so. If that is so, if it can be done, there is no reason why our main transmission should not be on the 625 line system with a supplementary transmission for the Dublin and North Leinster area on the present 405 method. That is to make sure that we shall not lose the audience which takes in 405 so long as the B.B.C. and Ulster Television continue to use that system.

While I am very grateful to Senator L'Estrange for reading out that portion of my speech, may I say that if he had listened to me on Committee Stage, he would have found that I said exactly the same thing.

I listened to Senator Ó Maoláin. Would it be possible for the Minister to go some way towards meeting the wishes of the Seanad and the wishes of the Leader of the Seanad?

He has done so.

He has done so? Read the debates.

Let us listen to Senator Barry who is serious about this matter.

Sit down, Jack-in-the-box.

I propose to withdraw the amendment. In view of the Minister's statement, there is no point in pressing it. Before doing so, may I make a few comments? Senator Louis Walsh lives within a stone's throw of Benbulbin and Derry City. He will get the best or the worst of two worlds. The only thing is that if we persist in what we are doing, neither will be of high quality. The quality will be technically bad.

The doubt that has been cast by the Minister and some speakers on the possibility of the British changing is ill-founded, I think. It is only ten years since the British started to discuss the possibility of doing some broadcasting on the system of frequency modulation. Now they have erected 30 stations sending out signals by that system. It is parallel to what we used to know as the long wave, short wave and medium wave bands. It is a very good system. The British have done that. It has meant that every domestic receiver has had to be replaced. The replacements are somewhere in the region of 54 per cent. of all receivers in England.

I believe the British will bite this cherry eventually. How soon, I do not know. I think they will, but meanwhile there is no reason why we should not get on with doing the two jobs. We should satisfy the Senator Louis Walshs and O'Reillys. Let the people who live near the border inside that Sligo-Dublin line have the 405 broadcast from here and let them also view the B.B.C., if they want to. We can never listen to the B.B.C. I do not believe there are 50,000 sets inside that line, but I know there will be 100,000 sets installed outside that line as a result of the setting-up of this T.V.

It is bad for us to encourage the people to buy sets which are acknowledged to be inferior to sets in the other system. I think we could do both. There will be no problem whatever. The Minister and other speakers referred to interference. The line standard has nothing whatever to do with frequency. As a matter of fact, the Minister is telling the British that they are sending out on 405 from Divis and he is going to send out on 405 from Dublin. They are two different subjects. I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SECTION 16.

I move amendment No. 13:—

In subsection (2), paragraph (b), lines 22 and 23, to delete "by arrangements made for the purpose with the Minister and any other person."

We have been accused during this debate of wanting to tie the hands of the Authority. Now the roles are reversed because the purpose of the amendment is to remove a certain amount of what appears to me to be unnecessary interference by the Minister with the Authority. The amendment relates to subsection (2), paragraph (b) which says:

to provide, by arrangements made for the purpose with the Minister and any other person, for the distribution, by means of relaying, of programmes broadcast by the Authority;

I cannot see the effect of the words "by arrangements made for the purpose with the Minister and any other person". How else could they provide it? Surely it would cover everything needed if the section read "to provide for the distribution, by means of relaying, of programmes broadcast by the Authority".

Perhaps the Senator would give me permission to answer that directly? Under this subsection, a person would have to get a licence from the Minister to carry on relaying a broadcast, the same as our own Authority would have to get a licence.

Paragraph (3) (a) states:—

The powers conferred on the Authority by virtue of paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (2) of this section shall not be exercised save under licence issued by the Minister.

I cannot see what is the force of this at all "to provide, by arrangements made for the purpose with the Minister and any other person". In other words, I do not see how the Minister enters into it, if that is the case.

Under the Wireless Telegraphy Act, the Minister would have to issue a licence to the person engaged in providing the relay service. The power the Minister has under this Bill is only taken from the Act.

It refers to relay only?

It refers to relaying of the service by an outside person or a company, as the case might be.

I withdraw the amendment.

The Senator will have a freer field to deal with the rest of the amendments.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 14:—

In subsection (2), paragraph (i), line 47, to delete "subject to the consent of the Minister".

Subsection (2) paragraph (j) states:—

subject to the consent of the Minister, to prepare, publish and distribute, with or without charge, such magazines, books, papers and other printed matter as may seem to the Authority to be conducive or incidental to its objects.

Again, the next subsection states:—

subject to the consent of the Minister, to compile, publish, distribute, sell and exchange recorded aural and visual material.

Again, I cannot see the force of that. In fact, I think it takes unduly from the autonomy of the new Authority that the Minister's consent should be obtained to what seem to be rather routine day-to-day operations by the Authority.

We felt that we might be criticised on this section from another angle. We are giving the Authority permission to enter into a commercial field in competition with other interests. It is not the primary object of the Authority to engage in the publication, distribution, sale or exchange of recorded aural and visual material or magazines, books, papers and other printed matter. The consent of the Minister is there to give an assurance to the people concerned that we do not wish the Authority to go into this business commercially, in the sense that they would be operating a paper in opposition to a newspaper or anything of that kind. It is not intended that the Authority should go so far into this field as to encroach upon the legitimate interests of private enterprise, which it might do, if my consent were not necessary.

We are not suggesting that the Authority will but we just wish to have that restrictive power, if it were felt they were exceeding the limit in regard to publications or the other matters covered. I cannot see there is any harm in having that authority there. It is an assurance to the private interests concerned and at the same time, it allows the Authority to provide a service for itself that may be of great benefit in, say, educational programmes, in publicising the highlights of particular programmes or in recording in permanent form programmes that have been produced in the studios, such as the Thomas Davis Lectures.

I find the Minister's explanation wholly satisfactory. The amendments were put down merely for the purpose of elucidation. Consequently, I shall not press them.

In regard to the Minister's remarks, I think that precaution is very wise. The Electricity Supply Act seemed to allow the Board to go too far into commercial activity in competition with legitimate private enterprise, but that is no concern of the Minister.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 15 not moved.

I move amendment No. 16:

Before subsection (3) to insert a new subsection as follows:—

"( ) It shall be the duty of the Authority to satisfy themselves that, so far as possible, the programmes broadcast by the Authority comply with the following requirements, that is to say:—

(a) that nothing is included in the programmes which offends good taste or decency or is likely to encourage or incite to crime or to lead to disorder or to be offensive to public feeling or which contains any offensive representation of or reference to a living person; and

(b) that the programmes maintain a proper balance in their subject matter and a high general standard of quality.”

The Minister has asked the House to be kind to him. Indeed, I think it is unnecessary for the Minister to ask the House to be kind to him because I think we all have feelings of kindness towards him. I certainly have and I am sure other people have, too, but I would ask the Minister now to reciprocate and to be kind to the House. I think this amendment is one which should appeal to him. It is admitted on all sides that the television medium is one of staggering power, a medium which holds tremendous potentialities and about which we know very little because we have not sufficient experience of it. Unlike newspapers and magazines, it will be in the houses of most families in the State. There will be times when parents are bringing up their children when they would like to have some idea of the kind of programme their children will be viewing. We must be satisfied that the Television Authority will do nothing which would be offensive to good taste or decency, as I seek to provide in this amendment.

We are not, I want to insist, tying the hands of the Authority in this. We are merely indicating the general lines of the approach which the Authority should adopt. They will have full discretion to decide what is good taste and what does or does not offend against decency. I think it is proper to put that on record for the guidance of the Authority and to impose upon them the duty that they shall constantly keep in mind the necessity for having a standard of good taste and decency in their programme.

Similarly, various kinds of programmes can be put on, not produced in this country but imported from other countries, which might incite to crime or lead to disorder. We have experience of how films can give young people the techniques of crime and we have a censorship of films. We are not providing any statutory censorship for the type of thing that can go on television, but I think a minimum requirement is to indicate to the Authority that they shall not put on programmes which would encourage or incite to crime or lead to disorder. In matters of public feeling, there are, I think, certain kinds of programmes which may be of tremendous interest to other kinds of people but which would be sordid and offensive to public feeling in this country. The Television Authority should constantly bear in mind in the supervision of their programmes that they will not contain anything offensive to public feeling from an Irish point of view.

It is also proper not to have any offensive representations or references to living persons. I do not think that is very likely to occur but comedians on variety shows may tend to be offensive to, amongst others, public personages. Apart from that, they may caricature people in a way which would not be libellous and would not constitute sufficient grounds for an action and damages in the courts, but at the same time would be grossly offensive personally to the people concerned. These are, so to speak, warnings to the Authority, but they give the Authority full freedom of action and enable them to determine the standards for themselves, subject to observing these minimum requirements. Therefore, I think the amendment should commend itself to the House.

The Authority should constantly bear in mind, and we should put it into the statute setting up the Authority, that the programmes should maintain a proper balance in their subject matter and be of a high general standard. I have a further confession to make—it is good for the soul—in anticipation of any rights Senator Lenihan may have. I want to say that I found these particular signposts were erected in the British Television Act for the guidance of the Independent Television Authority. I make no apology whatever for finding that this was a useful precedent to follow and for asking that it be incorporated here. If Senator Lenihan or anybody else has any amendments to this amendment, no doubt they can be put down on Report Stage.

I want to point out to the Minister and the House that in connection with this television service Parliament and this House are under a special duty to incorporate a provision of this kind. I shall refer to the Article in the Constitution, which I am sure the Minister has perused in connection with this Bill, dealing with personal rights. In Article 40, paragraph 6, subparagraph (1), we find:

The State guarantees liberty in the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:—

1. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.

It goes on then:

The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion such as the radio, the press, and the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.

That Article imposes upon this House the duty of giving effect to that provision because the State acts through the constitutional organs under the Government. In that context, the proper organ of the State to preserve public order and morality is the Parliament. It behoves us, therefore, as a body charged under the Constitution with ensuring that public order and morality are preserved, to adopt the suggestion in this amendment and indicate to the Authority what they should or should not do. I trust the amendment will commend itself to the Minister.

I want to assure the Senator that this provision, and other provisions relating to objectionable programmes and the maintenance of a high standard of quality, were very carefully considered for insertion in this Bill. This provision is included in the British Independent Television Act but it was decided that no useful purpose would be served by including it here. It must be remembered that the Broadcasting Authority will not be in the same position as Independent Television in Great Britain. Radio Éireann, when it is established, will be controlling and operating its own programmes. The Independent Television Authority in Great Britain does not operate programmes itself. It supervises the programmes put on by programme contractors and the provisions in the British Independent Television Act concerning the quality and the standard of programmes were intended as much for the contractors as for the Authority.

What is the purpose in solemnly admonishing the future Authority not to present indecent programmes or programmes that are in bad taste or likely to incite to crime and disorder or offend individuals? Is it at all likely—I do not think it is—that the Authority would deliberately do any of these things? Moreover, if you wish to enforce that kind of provision, you would have to appoint some higher authority to supervise.

In regard to the standard of quality, I do not think we should attempt to drive a willing Authority by legislative provisions. I am quite certain the Authority will do their best to give us a high-quality balanced programme within the resources at their disposal. If their performance, judged by results over a reasonable period, is not as good as might be expected, it will be open to the Government to change the members of the Authority. If they commit grave breaches of propriety or resort to the types of broadcast that have been enumerated here, the Government can remove the members of the Authority and replace them with people who will provide decent programmes and programmes of a high quality. For these reasons, I am convinced the proper course is to appoint a carefully selected Authority and give them a free hand, without any unnecessary instructions as to what they must or must not do.

As I have already indicated, this represents the Government's view in regard to the question of programme control and programme standards. I must then oppose this amendment. I do not think there is anything further I can usefully add. We can, I think, feel safe in the fact that the Authority will be an Authority operating this service on a high standard and they will take full cognisance of the ordinary standards of decency that obtain in the country generally.

We can all, I think, support the Minister on this point. He has made a clear case. I do not think any reason exists for the introduction of this new subsection. In practice, I do not think it would have any meaning because it says: "It shall be the duty of the Authority to satisfy themselves that, so far as possible, the programmes broadcast ..." and so on: "So far as possible"—surely one must presume that "so far as possible" on such programmes will govern, without the introduction of this new subsection.

Again, in paragraph (a) Senator O'Quigley's hope is that nothing is included in the programmes which offends good taste. Is he not really being a bit optimistic? We all know our tastes are different and what might offend some might be regarded as high-class entertainment by others. What is good taste? Who defines it? I am sure Senator O'Quigley would be prepared to define it at some length, but I am not sure that the definition would be a good one.

The Senator might not understand my definition.

That is the point. I probably would not and, that being so, what is the good of including something that has no meaning in general terms and would be interpreted by some as one thing and by others as another? The Senator wants to avoid all programmes that might incite to crime or lead to disorder. We all heard Senator Mullins in this House being worked up into a passion practically about the way in which the proceedings of the Seanad were reported by Radio Éireann. I notice he has made an amende honorable and has come to regret a good deal of what he said about Radio Éireann. But in the past he was very worked up about the way we were treated and it was quite clear that the programmes, as far as Senator Mullins was concerned, very nearly did incite to crime. If it were not for the well-known control that Senator Mullins has over himself and his feelings, the programmes might well have led to disorder.

We cannot cut out programmes merely because of the effect they may have upon some listeners. I am sure there are programmes which would be regarded by some as in the very best taste and might lead in others to a feeling that they would like to commit crime or disorder. In all seriousness, I do not think this is a useful subsection and the Minister has, I believe, made the best possible case for trusting the Authority. If we get a bad Authority, this subsection will not make them good. If we get a good Authority, we do not need it.

I am in favour of the amendment. I do not agree with Senator Sheehy Skeffington that no reason exists for the amendment at the present time. Many of us feel that a number of our plays and shows at present offend against good taste and decency. Yet it will be agreed there is plenty of good in the Irish people but, listening to certain plays, even from Radio Éireann, one would think the Irish people, especially the country people, did nothing but fight, argue and go to law with one another. There is also a lot of talk about illegitimacy. You get the impression that the Irish people are a nation of rogues and robbers, a quarrelsome people. That is the impression very often given in plays, even from Radio Éireann.

We do not want anything publicised on the radio as very often happens in Sunday newspapers which publish articles which definitely incite some young people to crime and which, when read by young people, make them feel entitled to take a rifle, go up North and say that all will be well in a few years' time.

And when you are 21 you vote Fianna Fáil.

Remember this is a non-political Bill.

There is plenty of good in the Irish people and I think their feelings should be presented in an edifying manner, certainly not directed to encourage violence in perhaps a small section. I sincerely hope that the possibilities of the medium for educational purposes will not be overlooked. Television can be a great power for good and when the television set becomes part of the equipment of the majority of homes in this country the repercussions of the service can be tremendous. Therefore, I disagree with the Minister when he says that if the members of the Authority are not doing their duty they can be removed from office. It is much better to have an amendment such as we are discussing to nip anything like that in the bud. This medium has great possibilities in our national and secondary schools and in our universities. In Chicago alone it is reckoned that over 60,000 people are at present taking classes by television. There are great possibilities in that direction here.

I sincerely hope we shall not have any rigging of programmes such as they had in America, even on educational programmes. I trust that anything like that will be nipped in the bud. It would do untold harm. It cannot be denied, I think, that it has done untold harm in America. When I spoke before about juvenile delinquency I mentioned that there is a certain amount of good in every delinquent. I believe our radio and television service should be used to make good citizens out of such people, given the proper board and a proper Authority.

On the occasion of the debate on the previous stage I said that it would be a good thing if we could teach our young citizens to have a better civic spirit and more respect for private and public property. We should point out to them—it could be very well done through the television service— the valuable contributions which they can make to parish and national life, Our youth look for activity and we know that the devil tempts the idle mind. They should be taught that it is much better to work for Ireland than to talk about dying for Ireland. They should be encouraged to do their bit and that by doing so they can make this a better country for Irish people to live in.

I suppose it is a sign of great decadence in the Irish nation that the Seanad is meeting on the same day as the coursing meeting in Clonmel, but when I heard Senator Sheehy Skeffington by innuendo upbraid Senator Ó Maoláin for his verbosity I thought that if there was a verbosity stakes I would put my money on Senator Sheehy Skeffington every time. He has been extremely verbose during my time here. We have not had him all day and we are glad to have some of his verbosity now.

I have put down only one amendment.

I am not so sure that the Irish nation is not really decadent —to get back to serious matters. There is a queer sort of, shall we say, inclination to evil in the Celtic nature and you have plays such as were referred to by Senator L'Estrange which undoubtedly are not the type we want to have "put across" and received in Northern Ireland by people not of our way of thinking and which will perhaps also be received in Britain.

We are fed up with stage Irishmen. To give an example, there is a play which has taken this country by storm —"Sive." In my opinion it is extremely decadent and indelicate. It is not the right sort of play at all.

I wonder if we could keep to a more general form of debate.

There is need for a yardstick, as the Senator who proposed this amendment pointed out. There is need for some pointer when you come to the crossroads. Now we are to be in the position where the Minister who will be a busy man has, so to speak, to vet everything that is being put over to see that it is just right. He cannot possibly provide constantly the pointer needed and eventually we shall reach a situation where he will come to the sorry pass of having to sack somebody. I think that is what he said to-day, that if people did not do the job properly they will be removed. Would it not be far simpler to have an amendment such as this accepted, to ensure that the pointer was there? Can the Minister give any reason why the amendment, if accepted, would be harmful to the general nature of the Bill? I believe it would be helpful to him because, instead of waiting until things reached the sad stage of having to sack somebody, he, or his officials could, even without his instruction, point out that this amendment had been contravened in a certain broadcast.

I think it is a wise amendment and there is nothing controversial about it. It is the type of provision that was in the British Bill and I think he would be well advised to accept it.

I take the view that, like earlier amendments, this amendment is superfluous and unnecessary and that this type of amendment incorporated in any statute is undesirable because of its platitudinous nature, because of the generalities incorportated in it and because of the difficulty of enforcing anything in relation to what is or is not good taste or what is or is not decency. I agree that it is useful to have general principles of that nature and Senator Donegan was concerned about having pointers that the Authority could follow, but Senator O'Quigley cut the ground from under that argument by quoting practically the same wording out of the Irish Constitution—Bunreacht na hEireann. It is in your Constitution that you incorporate general desirable principles of that nature, and rightly so.

Platitudes? It is in the Constitution you put the platitudes?

In a Constitution, you lay down general principles but these principles, when incorporated in an Act of Parliament, become platitudes.

They do not, because the Constitution provides that the State shall do certain things and the State acts through its Parliament. If the Senator understood the Constitution, he would not be talking nonsense.

An Act of Parliament should properly and unequivocally state what it is proposed to do. It should be laid down. It should be a concrete framework within which the Administration can operate. In this Bill, there are clear directives in regard to the matters that concern Senator O'Quigley. I refer, as the Minister has, to the very clear direction in Section 6:—

The Government may at any time remove a member of the Authority from office.

There is an equally clear direction, which can be exercised, in a later section of the Bill. Under Section 31, subsection (1), the Minister may direct the Authority in writing to refrain from broadcasting any particular matter or matter of any particular class and the Authority shall comply with the direction. That is the sort of clean drafting you want in a Bill. There is no equivocation about these two sections. They quite clearly empower the Minister to direct the Authority to refrain from having a particular matter broadcast, which I presume would be obnoxious or indecent matter, and not to encourage it.

Do we presume that he examines every programme?

Under Section 6, he can clearly remove any member of the Authority from office. That is the sort of wording you want in good legislation. There is no point in including generalities and platitudes which cannot be enforced. We hope that the sentiments that Senator O'Quigley has incorporated in this amendment will be the sentiments of the members of the Authority and I am quite sure they will be.

Read Sections 17 and 18.

I am quite sure that every member of the Authority and this Minister and Ministers of subsequent Governments will bear in mind that there should be nothing in any programme to offend good taste, decency or likely to encourage or incite crime.

He will be sacked after the event, when the harm is done?

I take it that the logical approach is the one put by Senator Sheehy Skeffington when he said: "We are setting up an Authority. We presume we shall get the best men to sit on it. We should trust them." In regard to general matters of principle with regard to good taste or decency, general principles of that nature, you can surely trust the nine men you will appoint——

What about impartiality in politics?

——leaving with the Minister power to deal with exceptional circumstances that may arise. This is clean drafting, in my view.

All we are looking for is clean programmes—basically.

Senator O'Quigley drew an analogy between the fact that we have censorship in regard to films and asked why should not we have censorship in regard to programmes. That, again, was an admission of lack of faith, of lack of confidence in the new Authority which it is proposed to set up. Films are produced in Hollywood, London and all over the world and they come in here. We require that the State should have some control over such films coming in here. On the other hand, we are setting up an Irish Authority, composed of Irishmen, who, under the Bill, are directed to take cognisance of national aims and objectives and to preserve impartiality.

What about canned programmes?

The debate should not be conducted on the lines of question and answer across the floor of the House.

I think this amendment, like other amendments that have been put down here, is unnecessary. We had a terrible admission in regard to the discussion on the last section when Senator Quinlan said that he put down an amendment merely in order to have a useful discussion with regard to the line standard. I do not think an amendment should be put down merely in order to have useful discussions and then withdrawn. That is futile.

That is traditional.

We are on the Committee Stage of a Bill and when Senators put down amendments, they mean that these amendments should be incorporated in order to improve the legislation before the House. That is the whole purpose of putting down amendments on Committee Stage. In regard to this amendment, I am against it because I think it is futile and can achieve nothing and that the requisite powers are there already in the hands of the Minister to deal with a member of the Authority or any programme.

I want to support this amendment, the principle underlying it, in one particular respect, but, before I do so, perhaps I might take note of the fact that Senator Lenihan is supported in his attitude towards this by Senator Sheehy Skeffington who, in a later amendment, proposes that subsection (1) of Section 31 be deleted. I do not say that that shows Senator Sheehy Skeffington to be illogical but I think it does show Senator Lenihan to be illogical.

We must trust the Authority—that is the point.

That is just what I intend to speak about.

Let us keep to amendment No. 16.

What I should like to see dealt with specifically in the Bill is the matter that it shall be the duty of the Authority to satisfy themselves that, so far as possible, the programmes broadcast by the Authority comply with the requirements, that is to say, that nothing is included which is likely to encourage or incite crime or to lead to disorder.

I think it is nearly five years ago that our broadcasting station in its news item, either one Saturday night or Sunday morning, broadcast an announcement by a body, signed by a gentleman who called himself the Adjutant General of the Irish Republican Army. The reason that kind of thing is so extremely perturbing is that it has been the tradition during revolutionary movements in other countries, particularly South America and the Middle East, to capture the broadcasting station. It is one of the methods of giving the impression that the revolutionary movement is getting on top. At that time, there was a departmental inquiry into the matter and the only result was that the porter at the door was reprimanded for letting a particular person in. If it had been left to me, I do not mind saying the decision I would be inclined to take on it. I understand the Director of Broadcasting was consulted about it. Being a non-national, it is possible he did not understand the seriousness of the matter but I should be inclined to suspend both the news editor and the Director within a few hours.

In fact, as I say, a full inquiry resulted in a reprimand to the porter at the door who gave as an excuse, and a very legitimate excuse, it would seem to me, that he had seen the messenger who brought in the message drinking in one of the local public houses with the news editor. Of course, that is why the individual was selected to bring it in, to cover the thing, so far as the porter at the door was concerned.

I realise that we do not want the kind of regulations, say, that had to be made for I.T.V. in England. I can appreciate that the I.T.V. would have to be regulated on the ground of decency and that kind of thing. Certainly, even some of the programmes of the B.B.C., plays they have broadcast, were the subject of very severe comment in the Sunday Times subsequently, I was glad to see, by many people in the London area, of many religious persuasions. I do not think we need worry unduly about that but we should worry about the other. I do not think the specific directions which the Minister can give under Section 31 cover the matter.

The responsibility should be put fairly and squarely on the members of the Authority themselves. In other words, if anything went wrong, the Authority would have to resign as a body. I believe in centralising responsibility because it is one of the great defects of modern democracies that when they come up against totalitarian regimes and totalitarian movements they cannot co-ordinate their efforts. That is one of the reasons I support this amendment. With regard to the point about good taste and decency I would rely on any group of Irishmen, in the particular circumstances of our society, to see to these things.

It appears to me that this amendment, if adopted by the House, would be, as Senator Lenihan has described it, superfluous and ineffective because in my view, no matter what we write into this section as to the functions of the Authority and how they will suit the tastes of the Irish people, in the end it will be entirely a matter for themselves. They will be appointed to do a certain job. They will be appointed because of their qualifications and if they, in carrying out their duties in that respect, fall short of what would be expected of a responsible Authority, then the Minister will have to decide what is the proper thing to do.

I do not believe in these sanctimonious expressions—that is how I describe them—as to what people should and should not do, because no matter what we put in by way of amendment we would still have to depend on the good sense and good judgment of the Authority concerned. The question of what would be a good or bad programme, or what should be suitable or unsuitable for the Irish people, would again be a matter of taste. For instance, Senator Donegan referred to the play, "Sive", and I think he tried to convince the House that it was not a desirable play to put before an Irish audience. There can be many different opinions but my opinion is that it has been accepted and acclaimed all over the country as a great production.

Senator O'Quigley mentioned the Constitution. I believe it is Article 6 of the Constitution which provides that any activity of ours whether it is freedom of speech, freedom of association and so on, is subject to public order and morality. We should leave it at that because if there is any deviation there is already ample power in the law of the land to deal with it. Therefore, I think this question of public order and morality should be left out of it because it is already safeguarded under the Constitution.

The question of what programmes suit the tastes of the Irish people is a matter for the Authority. If the Authority appointed under this Bill did lend themselves to producing plays or any other programme which did not suit the tastes of the Irish people it would be very soon brought to their notice and there would be a way of remedying that. The Minister himself, whoever he may be, would be able to rectify that matter. If we were to accept ten amendments to this section, we could not do anything more by way of regulating the conduct of the Authority as to what they should do to provide for public order and to make sure that morality would not be offended.

The attitude of the Minister, and apparently of the Government which he represents, to this Bill, to the Authority, and to all the amendments is very disturbing. When introducing the Second Stage of the Bill he said:

I believe that this Bill is soundly based, that it will give the future Authority all the scope and freedom necessary to develop a vigorous national broadcasting service....

As a matter of fact, in opposing this amendment this evening, he has made it as clear as could be that the Authority has no power and his attitude is: "I hire them and if I do not like them I fire them." That is his line, that what is required is a good strong Minister. If he does not like them he will dismiss them.

We had some discussion as to why amendments are put down on Committee Stage. There is no rule that amendments should be put down in Committee for the purpose of pursuing them to the bitter end in order to have them written into the Bill. It is quite common to put down amendments for the purpose of getting information from the Minister in charge on particular points. I put one down myself with regard to the Radio Éireann staff because I wanted to get a clear statement from the Minister for their benefit, and the benefit of the public, of what precisely he was doing for the staff and, to give him his due, he told me and I did not press the amendment.

The amendment which we are discussing could do no harm and if the Minister says he is going to set up an Authority with all the scope and freedom necessary to develop a vigorous national broadcasting service he should give them freedom. Reference has also been made to the Constitution and to platitudes but what is Section 17 but a platitude, a general direction. Section 18 is a general direction. It is thought fit to put in Sections 17 and 18 and it is thought fit, on the other hand, to fight to the death against this amendment.

I am not a fanatic for this amendment or for any amendment like it, but I cannot conceive what harm it would do and I certainly should be the last person—and I have some experience of drafting—to stand up here and say the British did not know how to draft Bills. It is a big charge because they have been a long time drafting Bills and they drafted many Bills that put some fellows in jail and kept them there with all the appearance of law, and those Bills went as far as the House of Lords and were found to be quite all right. Therefore, it is quite foolish to suggest that this is a section from a British Bill and the British do not know how to draft Bills. That is childish.

Who said that?

That was said quite clearly. It was said this was very badly drafted. The British have their defects but they can draft Bills.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington poured scorn and derision on the draft.

On a point of explanation, I poured scorn on the draft because it was bad, not because it was British.

We had Senator Lenihan on it last night for 20 minutes at least.

Let us come back to this amendment and decide on it once and for all. I think we ought to accept it. The Minister's argument about this amendment is that he is all-powerful and therefore this amendment is not necessary, although he considers Sections 17 and 18 are necessary and in Section 20 he considers it necessary to tell the Authority what they should do about advertisements. Therefore, it is untrue to say that you have an Authority which can use its own discretion and exercise its own views, for example, on good taste and on what might lead to disorder or crime, because in fact you have no such thing, because you have an Authority tightly bound in what one might call ceangal na gcúig gcaol. The Minister's answer to anyone who wants to put in an amendment is to say: “You need not bother. I have power and I can deal with that.” He is to be the judge himself.

In relation to this attitude, may I say the Minister, as anybody knows who has any experience of Ministers and Governments, both inside and outside, cannot supervise this television service himself? Nobody expects him to do it. This situation is difficult enough as it is and he could not be expected to do that. Therefore, any supervision to be done will be supervision by officials who will report to the Minister.

This whole Bill and this whole discussion on the amendment brings me to the conclusion that I put forward on the Second Stage, that this authority is meant to be an instrument of the Minister and is not meant to have any freedom. If it were, I cannot see any reason for the Minister not accepting an amendment like this. You could split hairs about it and say different people have different views. We could amply testify to that after to-day's discussion, that different people have different views about nearly everything. However, this amendment could not possibly do any harm. The Minister's only objection to it is that it is not necessary; if he does not like what the Authority is doing, he can change the personnel. That is very bad administration because manifestly the Minister does not want to be chopping and changing. It would be much better to take a general view and then let the Authority go ahead. The attitude taken towards this amendment is that we do not want this kind of amendment because of the power the Minister has in the Bill over the Authority.

It is perfectly clear that there is not a great deal of use in putting down amendments to this Bill. Certain amendments have been rejected by the Minister and speakers on the other side of the House on the grounds that they would circumscribe the Authority and then we are told that other amendments which do not circumscribe the Authority are unnecessary because the Minister has power here, there and everywhere else in the Bill to deal with any abuses that may arise. The Minister has rightly said that this subsection is taken from the British Television Act but he has been wrongly advised as to the effect of the provision in the British Act because in the British Act, no matter who puts on programmes, it is the Authority who are burdened with the duty by Parliament.

The Minister asked: How is this to be enforced? As Senator Lenihan pointed out, we have Sections 16 and 17 which provide that it shall be the duty of the Authority to bear certain things in mind. Will the Minister go around watching whether the Authority is all the time bearing in mind the interests of the Irish language or is the Minister prepared to play politics in relation to the Irish language seeing that he is not prepared to do what he is obliged to do by the Constitution and what the people demand of him, to put in a mild subsection pointing out in a negative way certain things that the Authority shall not do, and he has given no convincing argument for it in this House?

Senator Sheehy Skeffington reminds me of the man who would not drink milk with the mouse in it or the mouse out of it. He asked what did we mean by "decency" and what do we mean by "as far as possible"? On the other hand, if we got down to defining it, he would have ample reason for saying the definitions were too narrow. If you state something in broad terms, it is not right and if you define it down closely, it is not right. If one worked for a million years, one would not satisfy Senator Sheehy Skeffington.

Therefore, leave it to the Authority.

Parliament cannot decide broad principles but apparently this Authority, once it is established, will become a superhuman authority invested with all kinds of supernatural powers that nobody else has. I do not accept that conception of the power of Parliament.

I should like to point out to Senator Hayes that there is an important distinction between Sections 17 and 18 and the amendment. Subsection (b) of the amendment does not really mean anything. It says the programmes should maintain a proper balance in their subject matter and a high general standard of quality. But the Authority will be drawing up the programme and they are to satisfy themselves that the programme they are drawing up is a good programme. That is what it means.

Naturally, they will draw up a programme which they think is a good programme. Then they are to satisfy themselves that the programme they are drawing up is a good programme. It is nonsense.

Read the section.

In regard to this business of good taste, decency, and so on, and avoidance of incitement to crimes, there is an important distinction between that and Sections 17 and 18, because the amendment is a negative one, whereas 17 and 18 are sections which lay down general directions to the Authority in regard to what they must do in the course of drawing up a programme. They must constantly bear in mind the national aim of restoring the language; ensure that there is impartiality and that the Authority's views will not be made obvious in the broadcasting of material.

They represent two definite and positive points to which the Authority must have advertence in drawing up programmes. The other is purely negative. As the Authority are to satisfy themselves, and there is to be no other judge as to whether what they do is right or wrong, it just does not make sense because they themselves will be deciding what the programmes will be and then judging whether their judgment is good or bad.

Question put: "That the new subsection be there inserted."
The Committee divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 22.

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Carton, Victor.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Crowley, Patrick.
  • Davidson, Mary F.
  • Donegan, Patrick.
  • Hayes, Michael.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McGuire, Edward A.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Keeffe, James J.
  • O'Quigley, John B.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Prendergast, Micheál A.
  • Quinlan, Patrick M.
  • Sheridan, Joseph M.

Níl

  • Ahern, Liam.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Cole, John C.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Connolly O'Brien, Nora.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Farnan, Robert P.
  • Fitzsimons, Patrick.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Ó Ciosáin, Éamon.
  • Ó Maoláin, Tomás.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Sheehy Skeffington, Owen L.
  • Stanford, William B.
  • Teehan, Patrick J.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Louis.
Tellers:—Tá: Senators L'Estrange and O'Quigley; Níl: Senator Carter and Lenihan.
Amendment declared lost.
The Seanad adjourned at 5.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 10th February, 1960.
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