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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Mar 1960

Vol. 52 No. 9

Central Fund Bill, 1960 (Certified Money Bill) — Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Last night, I gave a brief review of some of the points of Government policy upon which I wished to comment. Naturally, I placed agriculture No. 1. It is well that we should keep in mind the background that seems to be behind the fluctuations both in Government policy and in marketing policy with regard to agriculture.

We go back to 1956. At that time, we were apparently convinced that the cattle trade was gone. The Argentine seemed to be a real threat and screaming headlines proclaimed the threat. Two years later, we reached the mass hysteria of the Spring of 1958. We could no longer sell dairy products. The price of butter on the British market had gone so low that there could be no future in it. To anybody who studied trends, it was, of course, quite obvious that a trade war was being conducted in what can be described legitimately as the best monopolistic fashion.

New Zealand had amassed a fund of close on £30,000,000 as a result of the very high prices paid earlier for dairy products and was using all those millions to drive us and other competitors out of the British market so that she might have the market for herself. But the drop was so steep and so drastic that even the New Zealanders grew appalled at what happened and, last year, a gradual recovery took place. We, however, panicked and we cut the price of dairy products by imposing a levy of one penny per gallon on milk. It was not the amount involved that mattered. It was the lesson it taught our farmers. They learned that increased production does not pay, and they learned that lesson at a time when everybody realised that the whole future of our economy depended on increased production both in the agricultural and the industrial spheres. The chickens produced in that lesson came home to roost pretty rapidly because, last year, when butter was making more on the British market than its controlled price at home, we had nothing to sell.

Remember, too, that last year the Irish farmer was compelled to sell products in the home market at less than he would have got for those products, had he been allowed freely to export them to Britain or elsewhere. He found himself in that position due to deliberate Government policy at the time.

There is, again, a drop in the British market to-day. It is not a very significant one but it calls for a slight subsidy in order to export. I hope that our Government will be resolute in tackling the problem now. I hope they will have the courage to give the much needed increase of at least 3d. per gallon to our dairy farmers. Even though it may not be possible to raise the products at home by the necessary 8d. or 9d., I hope that our Government will face up to paying a subsidy to get at least half of it; in other words, even though it means reintroducing the consumer subsidy abolished two years ago.

We are coming now to another stage. Again, the threat of the Argentine is beginning to appear in our papers. We read that the Argentinian beef herds are increasing so that what seemed to be a good proposition two years ago, to put our money in beef and beef products, is now appearing in its proper light as a very low form of production for Irish agriculture and one that is not comparable with dairying. Consequently, I hope the recent speech by the Taoiseach is the beginning of a really progressive and sustained attempt to get increased production in dairying products and, at the same time, to give our farmers the fruits of the increased standard of living which is enjoyed by other sections of the community.

We hope to see implemented this year those marketing boards which we have been promised. Every progressive agricultural country has found it necessary to introduce these marketing boards, and we cannot be an exception. When they come, I hope they will succeed in evening out some of the fluctuations. Take the disaster of last year about which Senators from the west of Ireland know so much, where due to a slight increase in the production of lambs—I think the increase was not more than ten per cent.—one lamb in every five had to be exported, and due to the fact that the price on the British market came tumbling down, the price on the Irish market came down in sympathy with it. The result was a 30 per cent. drop in the value of lambs last year. The farmers actually, by producing ten per cent. more lambs, cut their cheques by 30 per cent. Surely that is not realistic. I believe that any marketing board worthy of the name would have succeeded in mitigating that drop. The farmers were at least entitled to the same price on the home market last year as they got before for lambs, and the surplus could have been evened out and spread out as much as possible.

These are just some of the fundamentals that have to be observed in the development of agriculture. Above all, we must keep the confidence of the agricultural community, but I am afraid that confidence has been badly shaken by economic decisions the Government were forced to take in the past couple of years when we had price reductions due to increased production which cannot go hand in hand in the beginning phases of the development of agriculture but will, of course, later, when we progress to the stage that it is evened out by producing more and selling cheaper, but not in the initial stages of development.

One point which needs to be emphasised here is the question of marginal cost production; in other words, the question that bedevils the whole discussion, whether or not we can sell butter on the British market at 3/- a lb. when we are getting 4/- a lb. at home. Of course we can, if it means increased production. We know that if a man succeeds in getting 300 gallons per acre from his farm, and that in the following year, by better husbandry, he succeeds in getting 350 gallons, the extra 50 gallons will cost one-sixth of what it cost him to produce the 300 gallons. If you are dealing with marginal costs and provided your export prices are higher than your marginal costs, then there is a positive gain to the community as a whole to produce those articles rather than not to produce them. It is as simple as that so I hope we shall speak less of average cost and think more of marginal cost. I shall come to the same fallacy again when I am speaking on the cost of universities and university students.

There is one other point with which I should like to deal before passing from agriculture. We need to be clear on the question of bovine tuberculosis eradication. It is something that is forced on us by a prevailing fashion. It is like the Paris fashion shops saying that a lady's skirt must be 2" lower or 2" one way or the other. Tuberculosis eradication is exactly the same type of fad. In this case it is a health fad which is being forced on us and on the world. Because the major consuming regions like Britain have accepted it, it seems that we must comply.

No one for one moment should believe that our animal population is in a diseased condition. It is not, any more than we in the Seanad are a diseased collection of human beings because we are 99 per cent. reactors, I hope. Let us keep our sanity. It is a measure we are being forced to adopt but let us get away from the hysteria about our diseased cattle. In the abattoirs, not the slightest trace of disease is found, not a pin head, in 90 per cent. of what are classed as reactor cattle. I hope the Government are constantly trying to find ways and means of getting around it and of seeing if there is any other way of ensuring that our products are put on the market and accepted.

With regard to our dairy produce, so long as they are pasteurised, it does not make any difference whether the animals from which they come had or had not T.B., or at least whether or not the animal was a reactor. It is the same story with regard to meat. If we could find some way of getting around the eradication of bovine T.B. and if we could develop some type of vaccine to be given to the animals in the early stages which would confer a certain amount of immunity for the rest of their lives in the same way as many human beings are vaccinated with B.C.G., I think the Government should go ahead in that way. It would be very wise if portion of the expenditure on bovine T.B. could be channelled into the carrying out of research in an effort to find if there is any other way of breaking out of this unscientific approach to it. The killing of 19 or 20 animals just to get rid of one that is diseased seems to be a very crude approach in this so-called jet age.

Seeing that we are spending so much money on the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, I should like if we would at the same time turn our attention to the development of the dead meat trade. That is something we are all wishing and longing for. We feel it would rationally be a much more advantageous way of putting our products on the market. I believe we should get started on that now and try to even out the fluctuations in prices because at certain times our meat packers are not able to buy and then at other times they make a good purchase. Can we even out those fluctuations and develop a dead meat trade? Its history over the past eight or ten years has been one of great decline. At times, it is promising and then it almost folds up. Surely, with air transport and everything else, we should be able to place our meat products in first-class condition in markets anywhere in the world? I think far more consideration and finance would need to be devoted to that aspect.

Next I come to what has again become a major issue in the past year, our land policy. It has seen a change of Ministers in its administration but so far no real policy seems to be emerging, apart from various statements on the economic size of a farm, which is going up and up—40 acres, 50 acres, and so on. These are matters in our approach to which we must have a bit of sanity.

The question of the size of a holding, which is concerned with Government policy in the size of their Land Commission holdings and in their planning for the future, is very much dependent on the availability of land and the standard of living of our people. If we could provide everybody with thousand-acre holdings here, would they need do nothing but graze a few cattle and we would all live in the lap of luxury? We know that is impossible. Therefore, what standard can we use?

I suggest we can take the recent pronouncement by Mr. Conroy, President of the Trade Union Congress, that the aim of the trade union movement is to provide a wage of £10 a week for workers. That statement has been attacked as being unrealistic and it is argued that the amount is far too high. I think the present amount is just slightly over £8. Even though the statement is attacked, I cannot see how anybody can live on the figure. I know that people are living on it and that therefore it is possible to do so but I should not like to have to do it and neither would anybody here in the Seanad.

Surely, in our circumstances, an economic farm must be one that yields at least a living that is comparable with that? Farm survey figures show that, in the group 15 to 30 acres, the average income is just £6 per week on a 22-acre holding. That is away under Mr. Conroy's figure. You have to go to the next group with 42 acres to get an average income of £423 per annum, that is, £8 per week. One might say at present one would have to go to at least 50 acres to produce the same standard of living as our industrial population now enjoy. However, that is dealing only with averages.

The way to improve that, and we all know it needs to be improved, is to help the people on smaller holdings to produce more. We find in the farm survey that the top third of the farmers on 40-acre holdings have an average cash income of £13 per week. Those on the average 22-acre holding return £8. 10s. per week. Naturally, the £8 10s. when other benefits are added on, is at least as good as, or better than, the £10 a week target set by Mr. Conroy.

Therefore, one might say that, properly developed, a 20-acre farm can supply as good a living as what I regard as the very modest target now set by the trade union movement for Irish workers. The fallacy of this writing and talking to the effect that you need a 40-acre or a 50-acre farm is that all the people writing and talking at that level are people who themselves have incomes of £1,200, £1,400, £1,500 or maybe £2,000 a year. They cannot see how anybody could live on a farm of, say, 50 acres. They cannot see how anybody could live on a salary of, say, less than a £1,000 a year.

The fact is that the bulk of the people are living on it. We must be realistic in our thinking. I suggest, then, that the aim of raising our industrial wages from the present £8 to £10 a week should be matched by the comparable aim of raising our agricultural production and giving every facility to the people on small holdings to raise their production in the same way. If that is done, I feel quite confident that the 20-acre farm will produce a living any day comparable with a wage of £10 a week in our cities. We find that, if an industrialist submits plans to double the capacity of his factory, he has all forms of Government grants available to him. We voted several millions last year for the Industrial Credit Company and others, all of which was aimed at assisting such people. So far, there is no comparable legislation to help the small farmer to develop.

This free enterprise idea is, I know, a very fine idea but when it is applied to small farms, it just does not work. The man with only £5 cash for spending in the week cannot save on that. If, by any chance, he gets £5. 10s. or £6 one week, it is asking too much of human nature that he should save that extra £1 and accordingly build up in that way. Is he not entitled, in the event of such an increase, to have a little luxury for his family, based on that? In other words, the problem of developing the small farms is essentially one of the State giving the tools to these men to develop. We give tools to the airlines, to C.I.E. and to others. We expect payment on what is really a "never-never" system. I suggest we shall have to do the same for the small range of farmers who are in no position at any time to make savings on the very low cash incomes they now have. It is well to recall that, according to the farm survey, there are 4¼ million acres in farms of 100 acres or more.

May I suggest that the Senator is getting away from the outline of Government policy, which is really what is under consideration in the Bill? Matters of detail will have to be reserved for another occasion.

The little detail I used was to illustrate a very undesirable trend in Government land policy, a trend towards the belief that we can increase incomes on our farms only by giving our farmers more acres rather than by giving them better tools to develop the acres they already have. On that, I would welcome an extension of the Gaeltacht glasshouse scheme and other schemes to all the small farms in the country. It is only by that type of intensification that we can raise up production and meet our national obligations of giving the small farmers a living.

There is just one other point that needs to be commented on—the failure of the Government to encourage employment in agriculture. So far, the allowance granted in rates for people employed on farms has remained static for at least ten to 12 years, while the value of money has halved in that period. In fact, it is only a miserable £17 per worker employed at present. I suggest that is one real place where an increase is necessary. I would say that should be trebled.

We should remember that we cannot get production without men. There is a fallacy at present that we have 100,000 too many men on the land. That is based on English standards of production, that it requires so many hours to produce an acre of wheat or so many hours to care for a dairy cow in the year and so on. Adding up those and taking our total production, it is found that we should produce what we have at present with about 300,000 rather than 400,000 people.

There is one very trifling little detail that is forgotten by those who make those calculations, that is, if our people are to produce at the same rate as corresponding English workers, surely we must give them the same tools. We find that Irish farms are capitalised at about £20 per acre, whereas English farms have at least £40 per acre invested. If we are to get the same output per man, we should be prepared to invest an additional £20 per acre and over our 12,000,000 acres we should be prepared to invest £250,000,000 for the national duty of displacing 120,000 people from the land.

How far can economics be pushed? The job of finding alternative employment for those would cost at least another £250,000,000. We would have to spend about £500,000,000 to displace 100,000 off the land and put them into industrial employment and still maintain agricultural production at the same level.

Let us pass on to other aspects of Government policy. We have the Government technical development policy. This is our effort now to tackle the jet age. We really got off on the jets here when we voted £10,000,000 for jets and when we put Aer Línte jets on order. The service is going and we all hope it will be highly successful. We hope that Shannon will develop a little better than appeared to many of us to be the prospects last July when we voted this money.

There are certain aspects of the Government's approach to this jet age but two stand out in particular. These are the Report of the Universities space commission and also the Government action which is being proceeded with in the Dáil at present. I do not wish to anticipate the results of the debate except to state how heartening was the Minister's statement to all of us who are engaged in technical scientific development. It was an enlightened document and it is the most obvious sign that I have seen emerging yet of really constructive high-geared Government thinking for the future.

I hope it is an augury. I commend the Minister concerned on his broad and enlightened approach and also, having accepted the recommendations of the space commission, his decision to set up a universities commission to inquire into the various problems and inter-relations between the Universities, the technical schools, the Institute for Advanced Studies and all the others. I think the Minister deserves to be heartily commended on that.

Other aspects that seem to give hope are the Agricultural Institute which in the past 12 months has gone from strength to strength. I disagree very much with the Leas-Chathaoirleach in his strictures on that body, that is, that it is expanding too fast. In fact, I believe it is not expanding fast enough. It has taken over many going concerns. The Government were very wise in the past year in passing over Johnstown Castle, the Grange Farm and the Glenamoy development to this autonomous body. I believe that great things will develop there but in looking at the Estimate for this year— there is £400,000 for the Agricultural Institute—we might be inclined to think that the Government are being over-generous. Actually, the figure is not what it seems because the transferred services, Johnstown Castle, the Grange Farm and Glenamoy, cost the Government last year something like £170,000 as shown in the Book of Estimates for 1959. That is only part of the cost because you have the cost of administration of those farms which was done centrally by the Department of Agriculture.

That can be estimated at least as 15 per cent. of the cost of the farms themselves. As well as that, you have the cost of superannuation, pensions and so on and 15 per cent. of the salaries is required to meet pensions. Averaging it out, I would say it is probably 10 per cent. of the net estimate. That is 25 per cent. In addition, if we take the Book of Estimates for this year, we find on page 199 the relatively concealed moneys that are spent on those services. For instance, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners provides services for agriculture of some £16,000. There are like contributions from Public Works and Buildings, Superannuation and Retired Allowances and Stationery Office-there is free stationery for the places concerned—Valuation and Ordnance Survey, Rates on Government Property and Posts and Telegraphs.

All these add up to a very substantial amount. Actually, I think it could be estimated that that would amount to at least 40 per cent of the cost shown in the Book of Estimates so that in place of transferring services which cost £170,000, the actual amount transferred would be £170,000 plus 40 per cent. In other words, £240,000 so that the net amount given to the Agricultural Institute to carry on the work is only £160,000. I submit that that is far too low.

That is one heading in respect of which I hope we shall see a Supplementary Estimate and that certainly we shall see it vastly increased next year. I think it would be in order for me to pay the highest possible tribute to the present Director and the present Chairman who are doing magnificent work. Above all, what is to be appreciated is the way in which they are co-ordinating existing services and, speaking for my own university, I know they are working in exceptionally well and fulfilling their function in the co-ordination of scientific research.

Now having praised Government developments, I must turn to a few black spots. I suppose it is the sad fate of an Independent member to be mostly in Opposition but yet if we were only singing praises all the time, we would be of little use. There are a few matters which need to be pointed out specifically. There is the question of the Dairy Science Faculty at University College, Cork. Its total vote, as given here, is £30,000.

I am afraid that is a matter of administration.

I am not going into detail. I am keeping on administration and on policy. I want to say that the policy appears to me to be very unwise.

The discussion must be on policy and then on broad lines.

Yes, but this is on broad lines. It is the broad policy of starving non-Government services compared with Government services and it is a policy that is at the root of many of our troubles. How can you for one instant justify the position with regard to the schools operated by the Department of Agriculture? Take Athenry Agricultural School. Those Senators from the west know what it is doing. It is doing quite good work turning out some 30 to 40 students at most but it is in the Book of Estimates for £24,000, plus the concealed moneys which total 40 per cent., bringing it to £32,000.

It has got more than the Dairy Science Faculty. Ballyhaise Agricultural School has got more than the Dairy Science Faculty. The Munster Institute has got more than the Dairy Science Faculty and the Clonakilty School has got more than the Dairy Science Faculty. Yet we say that the country lives on agricultural produce; we must export dairy produce. Our effort to export some £19,000,000 worth of dairy produce can be summed up by saying that we spend £30,000 on training the people to man that industry, some 120 students, on providing a certain amount of technical advice for creameries as to the best type of separators and machinery to put in, and then on developing all those wonderful dairy products that are to win the market for the future—all the various types of cheese, the use of skimmed milk, of dried milk and every other type of milk—and yet we spend less on that than on one agricultural school run by the Department of Agriculture.

I am not saying for one moment that there is too much spent on those agricultural schools but I am using the ridiculous comparison between the two, because surely the work of the Dairy Science Faculty is many times more responsible than the work of one single agricultural school. Coming down to something which is closer to us here, we can look across the square to No. 5 Merrion Square, which houses the School of Cosmic Physics, one of the three schools of the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies. Its grant is £33,000, plus one third of the administration of the school, which brings it to £36,000. It is given 20 per cent. more than the Dairy Science Faculty. I am not suggesting it is getting too much—in fact I wish we could give it much more— but surely it is the height of absurdity that more should be spent on research on cosmic physics than on research and the development of dairy products and on the training of the technicians. Can I or need I go further?

We have not got a single place catering for food technology which is so important if we are to develop in the future. One would expect a country like ours, which is primarily agricultural, to have not one but two or three centres for food technology; yet we have none. To our shame, the best official advice that has been given to certain groups who were alive to the necessity for food technology was: "Oh, go cap in hand to the Ford Foundation, or some other foundation, and plead with them. Ask them if they will give you the money to set up a food technology centre. Ask them will they give you £150,000." We cannot spare £150,000 to set up a centre; yet we were able to vote £25,000,000 last July inside two weeks.

Again, may I remind the Senator that he is going outside the scope of the debate?

Yes, except that it seems that Government policy leans far more heavily on the development of industry than on agriculture and I have been trying to point out the deficiencies in the case of agriculture. The figures I have given speak for themselves to any reasonably minded person.

Another point which I had occasion to mention last year, and which is again highlighted, is this policy of starving non-Government agencies compared with Government agencies, namely, the agricultural schools. I do not want to go into the details but I pointed out last year, and there is no change this year, that it costs ten times as much per student in the State-run schools as in the private schools. Was there ever such a triumph for private enterprise? It costs ten times as much as in places like Warrenstown, Pallaskenry and the rest of them. Again, I am not condemning the work in places like Athenry. They are doing excellent work but I am pointing to the fact that the private schools are allowed only one-tenth of what the State schools are getting and in our present undeveloped state. I implore the Minister to open the flood gates to help them. It would cost only another £250,000 per annum to give the private schools the same treatment as that given to the State schools. Remember that that is given in Holland and other countries and why should we lag behind?

We were challenged by Senator Lenihan to show how the Book of Estimates could be reduced. I am showing it now.

Transfer those services from State control to private enterprise. If they can exist on the same pittance as those under private enterprise, you can do the same work and save 90 per cent on your agricultural schools, not to speak of the several other items similarly badly treated.

Now let me deal with a few brief points on Government policy in connection with the Universities. One of the most heartening items mentioned was the Minister's promise of increased scholarships. Our number of scholarships is deplorably low compared with other countries. We have about 10 per cent. on scholarships. England has about ten per cent. without scholarships and 90 per cent. on scholarships. As a poor country, we cannot afford that, I agree wholeheartedly. The solution is not the solution that has been found by a rich country like England. It is rather the solution to be seen in Sweden and the United States, where any young man reaching a certain level of attainment who wants to go to university, follow a degree course or some similarly advanced training can borrow from State agencies the necessary finance to put him through. He can borrow it at almost negligible rates of interest. Then he pays it back afterwards.

What could be fairer? Surely acquiring a degree, as well as enriching other aspects of life, should increase the financial earning capacity of the man, and so it is reasonable that he should be able to pay that back afterwards. That is something the Government would do well to inquire into here. If we do that, we shall remove many of the legitimate ad misericordiam appeals made at present to found universities in very many extra centres. Universities would be founded in centres only when the existing facilities were used up and there was a legitimate demand for facilities in those regions, but a demand based on something more than an ad misericordiam appeal.

I hope that Government policy is not using rules of thumb too freely. I have a suspicion that the grants are tending a great deal towards a capitation basis, so much per student. That is a very easy yardstick, but a very fallacious one because the costs per head of producing in a small unit are higher than the average. These can be accounted for by the fact that the product has the advantages of the smaller units and makes a certain and a different type of contribution to the national welfare. From calculations, you can say that every medical student exported from this country costs from £2,000 to £3,000 of the taxpayers' money. That is done by dividing the total spent by the number of students. In any of our medical schools and in the medical school I know best, that of U.C.C. where there are some 20 students in the faculty, if the numbers increase by 25 per cent. the extra cost is almost negligible because the same staff, or the same staff with very few minor additions, will cater for that same unit. Just as in the case of producing 1,000 extra gallons of milk for export, you are working on a differential here also.

May I suggest that this again is a matter that should appropriately come up on a special Vote, on a Vote for the Department of Education. The Senator will have an opportunity of dealing with that later on. On this, we have to confine ourselves to broad outlines of Government policy and not to matters of detail. Otherwise, discussion of this Bill would become impossible.

I shall leave that. It is unfortunate that we do not get an opportunity here of discussing those Departments in detail. I think we would all welcome it. But as they all come together in July at the end of a tiring session, I think the way we have to touch on anything and everything and get answers to nothing is most unsatisfactory to say the least.

The Chair has no control over that.

I appreciate that, a Chathaoirligh. There is one other matter which, I think, is very much a matter of Government policy, that is, the development of tourism. During the year, we have had Bills increasing the grants for the development of tourism. We all appreciate the part that tourism can play but let us not be led away by the magnitude of the figures, £38,000,000, because as has been pointed out, these include the visits of ordinary business men to this country. Moreover, they also include the returning immigrants. We have had a period of very heavy emigration for the past four or five years and surely it is only logical that, due to that alone, there should have been a great increase in the number of so-called tourists coming back to the country.

I am satisfied that certain progress is being made, but progress is slow. It is very hard to assess the number of real tourists, the people who would not have come here but for our advertisements. The work of building hotel accommodation has been given high priority by the Government and the grants are exceedingly generous. On the basis of the best information I can get, an extra hotel bedroom costs somewhere between £2,000 and £6,000. What I am worried about is that our whole approach seems to lack originality. If we have not got originality in the tourist trade, we have got nothing in it.

I would suggest that we should explore very carefully the question of establishing farm family holidays. In America, this is called the dude ranch system, where people who are cooped up in the cities over the greater part of the year like to sample the free open spaces in what they regard as countryside living. I think we are ideally placed for that. Including rural dwellers, teachers and some others who might participate in such a scheme, we have a potential of 300,000 homes. If we got only five per cent. of those, that is 15,000, to participate and they had to add an extra room or two to their houses to cater for their guests at certain periods of the year, that would provide twice 15,000 or 30,000, new bedrooms. The magnitude of that can be gauged by the fact that the total existing hotel accommodation is only 14,000. I would suggest to Senators who know the country very well that the cost of adding two extra rooms to an hotel is from £4,000 to £12,000. However, the cost of their erection in some of our better rural centres would be a fraction of that. I should like Government policy to be so framed as to give some encouragement to such a development.

I want now to touch on foreign policy. I think we are right in believing that since the appointment of our new Taoiseach last July, there are welcome signs of a change in foreign policy and a more realistic approach. Admittedly, we have not yet seceded from the disastrous vote for the discussion on Red China in U.N.O. Indeed, we subscribed to that again last September. However, since then, we have been doing everything we can to show what bad fellows these Chinese really are.

What about this crusade the Senator promised last year?

I have given the Senator a chance to reform in the meantime. I think there are signs of such reformation.

Our efforts on Tibet were quite successful. There, we performed a legitimate function. In many ways, that function is serving to counteract some of the harm done by some of the other votes. During the past few days, our Minister for External Affairs has been very vocal in condemning the barbarism of Red China in her treatment of two bishops. Bishop Walsh has been sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment. The pronouncements of the Minister for External Affairs in the past few days are a hopeful sign. I hope that we shall temper our enthusiasm to become, as it were, the rebel leader of all the anti-colonials. I hope that we shall temper that with what should be our proper function, namely, to become, as it were, the conscience always speaking on the side of right and always supporting right. The rôle of a small nation is really that of conscience because a small nation never has great power. It has, however, principles and it can always enunciate those as and when occasion demands.

The outstanding principle at issue at the moment is the question of Communism versus the rest. Our Minister for External Affairs will do great good if he joins himself and his policy to “the rest”. The Russian leader promising peace and talking about disarmament on his visit to other countries can be regarded with nothing but suspicion because, simultaneously with these pronouncements, he boasts of the extraordinary progress made by Russia in the armaments race. The Communist philosophy is committed to world domination. That has been written down. It has been repeated year in and year out. Every step taken, every attempt at a pseudo-rapprochement, is just another rung in the ladder to world domination. Talks, treaties and everything else are all part of the plan. Treaties will be kept only so long as they help the Communist rise to world domination. We would, of course, at no time do anything to prevent treaties. By all means, let agreements be made. We are happy that they are made. Let us, however, always raise the red flag——

What red flag?

The red flag of danger.

Oh, now ! Come back to the crusade. How many thousands did the Senator get to follow him?

There is an event of some significance which may occur shortly; our representative, Mr. Boland, may be made Chairman of U.N. We all applaud his good work. We have reason to believe that this Red China fiasco was against his judgment and advice.

His election will be the biggest shock the Senator ever got.

Our Taoiseach has stressed the need of finding our place in Europe. We have the Inner Six and the Outer Seven. We are watching where we can join. We recognise we can no longer exist as an isolated unit. First things first: if one is in a tight corner, what type of ally does one want? Is it one who merely wants to share the spoils at the end or is it someone who is prepared to take his place in the face of danger? From that point of view, it is essential that we should now reconsider our attitude to NATO. By decision of the Inter-Party Government in 1948, we remained outside NATO. Possibly the Fianna Fáil Party are today feeling proud that that was not their decision. I believe the decision was wrong. I believe it was cowardly at the time because the future of mankind hung in the balance. Why should we hold back? We shall have to take our part in a defensive group, a group formed for the protection of Western Europe. I believe no Irishman will condemn the Government if the Government reverses that decision now.

Finally, let us not be scared about all this talk of nuclear war. Surely, as Christian people, we believe there is a God. Cradled in that belief, we should face the future with hope and confidence and, if we do so, we shall play our part as a small but Christian community.

We are afforded an opportunity on this Bill to review Government policy and Government activities. Indeed it is one of the few opportunities we get in the Seanad. It is the function of an Opposition to criticise, when criticism is necessary. That criticism would we would hope, be constructive criticism. It is also the function of an Opposition to provide alternative Government. Anybody who has followed the proceedings in our Parliament over the years will agree that there has certainly been no lack of criticism of Government policy and Government activities.

I should like now to refer to a statement one hears from time to time that there is really little or no difference between the Fine Gael Party and the Fianna Fáil Party. Seemingly these critics think that there should be an exceedingly sharp and clearly defined difference between the Party in Government and the Party, or Parties, in Opposition. They seem to expect extremes, a well-defined Left and a well-defined Right, black and white. They seem to want distinct differences even in political philosophy. They seem to look for the sort of development we had in England in recent years with the Conservatives and private enterprise aligned on the one side and a Socialist philosophy on the other. But even in England it is apparent now that this idea of extremes as between Government and Opposition is losing its appeal. Already the electorate has shown its disapproval and dissatisfaction with the idea of swinging from the nationalisation of major industries under one Government to a complete reversal of that policy under its successor on a margin of a few votes perhaps.

The possibility of a swing of government from one side to the other would destroy confidence and a sense of stability in the State. In the U.S.A., there are the Democrats and the Republicans, and between each of those two Parties, there is not a very discernible difference, when one sees them as we do sitting back and looking on from outside. In fact, there is not very much difference between them, and yet there is criticism of Government actions of an active and a vivid nature and they provide also an alternative Government without advocating a changing of the system. I suggest here in our State we do not need or want any great change.

We have the Fianna Fáil Party and the Fine Gael Party providing the right degree of criticism and opposition based on the same political philosophy in which the question at issue is how best to achieve agreed aims, rather than creating basic political changes. We do not want big political changes in our Constitution, or in our system of Government, but we sometimes need a change of personnel—a new look, a different look— to carry out the operations that are necessary to achieve the aims which we all have for the prosperity of our economy, and the employment and happiness of our people. We do not want any more revolutions here. We have had enough revolutions in our country and, indeed, it is now time to get down and build up our economy and not engage ourselves in fruitless political controversies.

For instance, in the beginning of our State we had the original Cumann na nGaedheal Government which we must thank for setting up the basic institutions of our State, both political and economic. After them, the Fianna Fáil Government came into office in 1932 and carried on an intense programme of industrialisation. That was a very desirable step, and one that was absolutely necessary. When Fianna Fáil had been in office for a long time, it was apparent that this industrialisation was achieving only part of our fundamental national aim and providing only industries dealing with our home market, the domestic market. I think it is not unfair to say there was almost an undue emphasis on industrialisation to a certain degree, rather overlooking the aims and the claims of agriculture.

Then, in the Fine Gael Party, as was manifested when the inter-Party Government came into power, the emphasis in policy was laid upon agriculture, mainly because of the dominating personality of the present Leader of the Fine Gael Party whose main interest was in agriculture. In that way, when again the Fianna Fáil Party came into power, they were heard to talk more about agriculture. Furthermore, for the first time, under the inter-Party Government, fiscal incentives which I have advocated for many years, together with many other business men, were introduced.

As a result of all that, when the present Government came into power, it was found that they further developed incentives to exports and thus we have the position today which came with a proper balance of policy as a result of the two sides going in and coming out of Government. Today we have established a much better balance, as a result of the interchanges of Government, in our present Government policy on agriculture. One of the most startling and satisfactory happenings of this year is the fact that there is such a dramatic rise in industrial exports for the first time to fill what was a very dangerous gap caused by the fall in agricultural exports this year.

I submit to those people who are saying there is no difference between the two major Parties that they are doing a disservice to the country and preventing us from getting down to a normal and business-like outlook on the running of our country in the future.

It was Senator O'Brien, I think, who remarked that the centre of gravity of public life is now shifting from political to economic issues. Instead of, as I said, arguing about major political Parties, we now urgently require to work out a system under our existing political philosophy. We urgently need to develop agricultural —that goes without saying—industrial and invisible exports. Those are the three exports we need and it is on increasing exports that emphasis must be placed at the moment, if this country is not only to expand and advance its standard of living but even to maintain the standard we have at present.

Apropos of that, I should like to reply here to a mis-statement which I think was probably not intended, by Senator Quinlan, on the question of the standard of living to which Mr. Conroy of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union referred recently with regard to the idea of a £10 per week minimum wage for workers. Senator Quinlan said that proposition by Mr. Conroy was attacked. As I happen to be one of the people concerned in answering Mr. Conroy on that subject, I should like to point out that the proposition was not attacked. It was not attacked on the basis of what should be paid but on the basis of what could be paid, which is a different thing.

Ministers, including the Taoiseach, economists and employers generally, merely stated that if Mr. Conroy and the trade unions of this country wished to have this standard which they set at £10 a week minimum—which I do not think is a high minimum; I should like to see a higher minimum paid—it can be paid only out of extra work and extra production. We asked the people who want those things to come together with the people who are putting up the capital—State capital or private capital—in such a way that we can produce more and that £10 will not only be the minimum wage, but that the minimum will be much higher. To say that we attacked the proposition that people should have £10 a week minimum wage is just untrue. It is only a waste of time for people to come with tears in their eyes and say a man cannot live on £10 a week. I know that, but it is a matter of what can be paid. That is all we are saying. It is perfectly straight-forward and should not be misrepresented.

Senator O'Brien said the centre of gravity was now shifting from political to economic issues. I shall not say much about agriculture, because people who are in a better position to do so than I have spoken very sensibly on that subject. Everything is being done at the moment, and all steps are being taken to see what can be done to develop our agricultural economy and to increase our agricultural exports. Even though I am not an expert. I I think that the more efficient we make our agricultural economy, the fewer people it will employ.

I happen to know of a farm in Sweden which I saw some years ago. The owner of that farm has something like 2,500 acres and it is run in the most efficient and most up-to-date manner. I was shown around by the owner to see the work on that farm and I saw the immense amount of mechanisation used. Only 12 men were employed. It seems the more efficient our farms are made, and the more we put ourselves in a position to export our farm produce in such a way, and at such prices, as to make them acceptable and competitive in the foreign markets, the fewer people will be employed. That really means it is all the more important that we should put emphasis on the further industrial expansion of this country on which, I am glad to say, much thought and money is being expended at the moment.

Now that the Minister has returned, I should like to commend the grants that have been given for this purpose in the past year and particularly the fiscal incentive given to industrialists to export. The dramatic increase in industrial exports this year is directly due to this one thing. It is something I have advocated for years and years. I have been told by Minister for Finance after Minister for Finance that we could not afford to do these things because the Exchequer could not afford incentive concession either in grants or particularly in fiscal incentives.

The fact is now shown that we cannot afford not to afford them. Even in the coming year, no matter how tight our finances may be, we must find ways and means to increase and step up these incentives. It seems that many people are surprised to see the dramatic effect this year of a £10 million increase in exports in this item. It is no surprise to me. It is the ordinary result of doing a business-like thing.

The Senator is now dealing with matters of taxation which can be raised on another occasion.

The Minister mentioned in his opening statement that some of this money was used in grants to tourism and in stepping up production. I merely tagged on the fiscal incentive to the grant incentive. However, I thank the Chair for letting me fit it in.

A passing reference is in order but the matter may not be developed.

After agriculture and industry, the third industry we have in this country is tourism. That must be regarded purely as a business proposition in which we are going to invest money in order to get money back. Our problem is to find out which is the best way to invest our money so that we will get the most dramatic and lasting returns. Here again, I should like to say that we are beginning to think realistically and in a businesslike way on this matter. I should like to commend the activities of Bord Fáilte which to my knowledge is doing a very good job. From time to time, people criticise Bord Fáilte but I do not agree with such criticism. Being in Dublin, I am rather closely associated with the activities of Bord Fáilte. I know many of its personnel. I think they are doing an excellent job. Their money is being used in the right way to attract foreign tourists.

Our great handicap in dealing with tourism at the moment is, first, the lack of hotel accommodation and, secondly, at the height of the tourist season, our deficient transport arrangements for getting people in and out of the country. Even if we improve our transport arrangements 100 per cent., we still cannot handle the people coming here at present, not to talk of bringing in any more in the height of the tourist season.

We have a comparatively small number of hotels. We can see in the papers these days, I am glad to say, that there are plans to remedy the hotel situation. I should like to commend the incentives that have been given for writing-off capital investment over a period of ten years which is excellent and something I welcome very much. I think this should have been done long ago but better late than never.

Although it is very important to put up big hotels in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, and such centres, what we need in this country is a chain of good hotels of a standard quality, say, 20 or 30 hotels, in rather out-of-the-way places near beauty spots. Very often, at some of our best beauty spots where we have the finest scenery, strands, beautiful bogs, hills, etc. there are no good hotels. These places are very far away from hotels. The booking companies in America and England say it is not possible to book holidays in this country with any degree of satisfaction, unless they have a sufficient number of hotels to build up a general tour chain. If you want to go around the country on a motor tour you may need, as is done in France, in a period of seven days to go into six or seven hotels before reaching the big cities. It is in that kind of rural hotel that we are very lacking as regards eating accommodation, for lunches, and so on, and particularly sleeping accommodation.

I had hoped at one time that some of the big brewery people would, as they have done in England and other countries, undertake investment in such a chain of hotels. They could centralise the control from a central area and thereby establish a standard of quality in hotels all over the country. Our difficulty at the moment is the extraordinary variety of hotels ranging from those giving very bad service to those giving fairly good service. One never knows exactly what one will get in any particular place. I hope somebody will take up this idea of a chain of hotels. I am assured that if such a thing existed it would be possible to extend the tourist season in this country. The shortness of our tourist season is supposed to be a difficulty. If we had sufficient hotels the time of the year would not have much influence on the filling of them, especially with our kind of climate which is without extremes of Winter or Summer. A Canadian woman once remarked to me that in this country we have neither Summer nor Winter but always Spring and Autumn. Spring and Autumn make a very nice climate and most people, especially those over 40 years of age, would prefer to live in an eternal Spring and Autumn than in an eternal Winter and Summer.

I should like to say on this subject, in conclusion, that it is recognised, and it can be read in all the economic and financial papers nowadays, that tourism is one of the industries that is absolutely certain not only to expand but to go on expanding indefinitely. With the ease and speed of modern travel, its future is almost unlimited. It has a great potential in the future as a source of revenue. In a country like this, where we have a very limited number of opportunities for expansion I think tourism should be regarded as a major industry for development. As a side-line to that, when tourists come here, they expect to have something to do and something to see.

Somebody said earlier today that we must have individuality here. The tourists must have something in this country which they will not get in other countries. There is one thing in this country which we do not appreciate and certainly we do not present properly, that is, our ancient history and historic churches and monasteries. They can be seen in the form of derelict ruins with no roofs, although they are kept in repair or, rather, disrepair by the State. Some people in control of these matters seem to think that there is something unaesthetic about having roofs on churches and maintain that they should be left in ruins untouched.

That is absolutely ridiculous. All these ancient churches should have their roofs restored to their original condition. They should be living things and if possible, actually used for worship. They should be restored to their original state as is done in Italy, France and many other countries in the world where such churches dating from the Middle Ages are roofed and the approaches to them are not covered with grass as they often are here. To approach many of our best known abbeys and monasteries in Ireland, one has got to cross fields which are under grass and mud. The whole thing looks uncivilised.

It looks as if we do not know the value of these historic monuments. I would suggest that the matter should be taken up seriously. People who would be sensitive in their approach to this matter would, I think, be Bord Fáilte but I am afraid that the buildings are not under their control. I am sure that if we were to tell Bord Fáilte to repair these buildings we would be informed that they have not got the money and even if they have they would not be allowed to do the work. Look at the wonderful buildings which we have in Cashel. The roofs are open to the sky. It is a sad thing to have that wonderful monument of the Middle Ages open to the sky. You have to go up in a most dreary way to the ruins. Here is a fine work of art in a bad condition. It is like the people long ago who would never clean pictures because they thought the dirtier the pictures were, the more artistic they were.

Again, on the subject of tourism, I should like to pay a tribute in relation to the introduction of the Road Safety Bill which is now on the stocks. That was very much needed and was long overdue, especially in view of the increased traffic not only on the domestic front but on the tourist front as well. Tourists are puzzled by the behaviour of the people on our roads. A large number of motorists are quite unaware of the elementary rules of the road, not to speak of elementary good manners. Therefore, I welcome very much the forthcoming legislation. The way people use the roads is very important, not only from the tourists' point of view but from our own.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator will get an opportunity to speak about that matter on another occasion.

I am referring to it only in general. I could not make a shorter reference to it than I have. There is another matter which I should like to mention in a broad way on Government policy. It is a problem that requires urgent examination and a reasonably definite policy on the part of the Government. I refer to the relationship between State and private enterprise in our economy.

If we are gearing ourselves up to the future, as we seem to be now, in relation to economic problems, it is very important that we should have some idea as to the line of country taken by the State bodies and what field of operations will be allowed to private enterprise and what chance they are to be given to work in their respective spheres. It is important that there should not be antagonism between these two kinds of enterprise.

Nowadays, we all accept that there is a place for State enterprise and private enterprise but they must not be antagonistic. They must cooperate, co-ordinate and work together. I am sorry to say there is a certain amount of apprehension at the moment in regard to the whole atmosphere between private enterprise and State bodies. It can even be seen in the statements made by some of the chairmen of the State companies. They take pleasure in stating that private enterprise has failed here and that the State bodies are doing something that private enterprise has failed to do. On the other hand, we have chambers of commerce and individuals protesting that the State bodies are impinging on their territory unfairly. I emphasis the word "unfairly."

Let me quote from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce Annual Report for the year 1959. The Council in the Report say, with reference to State companies:

During the year your Council was concerned at pronouncements heralding the expansion of the operation of State-sponsored Companies. There is no objection to the operation of such companies in that field of industry for which they were originally established, but their incursion into that sphere of business and industry already adequately catered for by private enterprise is viewed with considerable concern. The Association of Chambers of Commerce of Ireland ...has agreed to prepare a memorandum on this subject during the coming year in which it is proposed to set out, inter alia, the unfair competition with which some traders are confronted by the operation of these State Companies.

I shall content myself with making just that reference. I hope, when this memorandum on the subject is prepared by the Chamber of Commerce, that the Government will seriously consider their recommendations because I think it will be conceded by the Government and by any previous Governments that the chambers of commerce have always been very helpful in anything concerned with the advancement of the economy of this State. They helped to float loans at times even when they felt these loans would use moneys which could very well be used in the sphere of private enterprise which the chambers of commerce represent.

Since I am on the point, I should like to make a suggestion which I think might be well worth examining. I think it was suggested by the Taoiseach at one time. I refer to the possibility of inviting public participation in State-sponsored enterprises by way of shares. This would mean that shareholders might then be given representation on these companies' boards of directors. Some of these companies are already in existence and others are perhaps to be launched in the future where there is not sufficient ordinary private enterprise backing available. These companies could be launched under Government guarantee rather than with State capital.

In the first instance, there would be the question of existing ones. There are not very many which would be suitable for this purpose. Perhaps, the Sugar Company would be but I would not suggest C.I.E. or the E.S.B., but there are companies that could easily be launched on to the public and in cases where other companies are required in future, rather than setting up a State company, I suggest setting up these companies under State guarantee. That has been done to a certain degree but more could be made of it under State guarantee with the shares floated on to the public market. Then you would get over this difficulty at the moment. At present, State companies are in a way responsible to nobody. If you ask a Minister in the Dáil a question about the operations of a company such as this, he tells you he has no function in the matter. He has not, under the particular way in which these companies are established. If you had this idea of a certain number of directors on these companies representing the shareholders, it would mean they would have to give a report in the ordinary way to the shareholders and be questioned by them at an ordinary general meeting. I feel that something of this kind should be examined if we are not to drift more and more into a purely State controlled economy. This might be a happy State where you would have real semi-State bodies and half State and half private enterprise companies operating.

I should like to say a word about the banking system. I am glad to see we do not hear many attacks on it nowadays, at least the ignorant attacks which used be made on it. From my own experience, I consider that our banking system works well and reasonably, and any Government direction that is needed can be made felt under the present system. The powers of the Central Bank are being extended gradually and sensibly and I think there is a smoothly working harmony of interest between the commercial banks, the Central Bank and Ministers for Finance, which is not generally appreciated. I think the Minister will bear me out on this. Government policy should be to strengthen and maintain the general banking system and the harmonious relations that exist at present.

My final reference is to a matter which is related to what has really been the main theme of my speech, that is, the need to develop our economy and the fact that we should all work together to do so. I feel that our Department of External Affairs is a little too preoccupied with the pure question of international politics and perhaps diplomacy. The emphasis is on the diplomatic side of its work, whereas I consider that in a country like ours, our foreign diplomatic missions should be concerned with, and the main aim of their operations should deal with, the fostering and promotion of trade and commerce between this and other countries. We would do well to strengthen the operations of our missions wherever they are, with people with commercial experience and understanding.

I was talking to Madame Nehru— I do not know if I mentioned this in a previous debate—when she was here recently and she told me that 90 per cent. of the work of the Indian Embassy in London is commercial. She said her work was nine-tenths commercial and only one-tenth diplomatic. We like to see our Irish diplomats in the limelight in other countries. I am all for a strong Department of External Affairs and do not agree with these people who say our people should not go away and should not be abroad and that they are unnecessarily spending money. I think they are very necessary but they could give far more time and energy to trade matters and to the expansion and increasing of our trade.

I have a small complaint which I should like to voice, that is, that the Department of External Affairs is keeping aloof too much from the ordinary life and workings of the country. I mean the trade workings. For instance, every year, we send delegations to the I.L.O. in Geneva, both employers' and workers' delegations. I have gone to these conferences in Geneva and every year I have seen other Governments, from the Iron Curtain countries right up to the United States and Britain, with trade union representatives—employers' representatives and Government representatives —working harmoniously together. What is more, they work to a brief pretty well. They maintain their independence but act to a national brief. I am sorry to say that, to my knowledge, the Department of External Affairs has never, during the past 20 years, or whatever period we have been going to the I.L.O., contacted employers' delegations or workers' delegations.

We also go to the C.E.I.F. conference in Paris, which is the employers' side of O.E.E.C., and the Federation of Irish Industries are also represented there, but we have no contact whatever with our Government either through Industry and Commerce, or through External Affairs, as to our policy. Even when such matters as the Common Market were being discussed, we had to find out the policy ourselves.

I was talking to two British delegations in Paris at another meeting and they informed me that the previous night they had been talking to no less a person than the Prime Minister who had consulted with them about what England was doing in regard to the "Six" and the "Seven". The other day, at the annual meeting of the Federation of Irish Industries, there was a complaint made that the Federation knew nothing at all about what is happening in connection with the London talks. I know that the answer given to that is that they are secret and that something might leak out, but I think that is carrying things too far. If we are engaged in international conferences, we must take into consideration the views and advice and the interests of the people who are mainly concerned. Apart from the people themselves, you have people in trade and commerce and industry. They should be brought into consultation and into the Government's confidence. At least the presidents should have the confidence of the people going out to represent us in other countries so that we shall appear as one and not give the impression of being at sixes and sevens.

I did not intend to intervene in this debate but the remarks of Senator Quinlan provoke me to speak for ten minutes relative to his comments on the tuberculosis eradication scheme. If his remarks were to be taken seriously, it would be bad for the country. I do not think his remarks, either here or elsewhere, are always taken too seriously. However, he referred to the tuberculosis eradication scheme as a health fad and that we should seek some means to get around it. His subsequent remarks might be relative to a scientific means of getting around it, but seeing that those words could be interpreted that we were by subterfuge, to avoid the tuberculosis eradication scheme and to get around the eradication of the disease from our livestock, I have been prompted to intervene.

Experts are sometimes described as people who know more and more about less and less. I am afraid I must classify Senator Quinlan not as an expert because he seems to know less and less about more and more. When he comes to suggest that we should adopt the B.C.G. vaccination scheme with our cattle, he is just showing he has not the faintest idea of the position. He is dealing with matters about which he knows nothing. B.C.G. vaccination, as we know, relates to the vaccination of the human subject to prevent subsequent infection by the tubercle bacillus, but that must be carried on in perpetuity while there is a danger of tuberculosis. If his suggestion were adopted and if it were successful—which it would not be—we would have to vaccinate all our cattle in perpetuity with the B.C.G. vaccine in order to prevent subsequent infection. The thing would be fantastic. Twenty-five years ago, I carried out a post mortem on an animal vaccinated with B.C.G. against tuberculosis. Therefore, the Senator is wrong in believing nothing has been done in connection with that. The animal was extensively affected with T.B. To my mind, at that time, B.C.G. vaccination against T.B. was not the thing.

It may be that in years to come, some system of vaccination against bovine T.B. will be developed. I am not saying that could not occur. However, to suggest that in order to eradicate bovine T.B., we should vaccinate our livestock against subsequent infection is simply grotesque and is not the approach I would expect from a person who classifies himself as a scientist and derides others who do not take the scientific approach to such matters. I should not like Senator Quinlan's remarks to be taken seriously in the Press or outside. Subsequently, he referred to other matters which I shall not deal with now. We can read his remarks afterwards and possibly we shall find in many cases they are ridiculous, too.

He referred to the dead meat trade. Undoubtedly, that would be the ideal thing, if it could be developed satisfactorily. When the price of cattle goes up, the tendency is towards live export, and when the price of cattle falls, the dead meat trade is the only outlet for the beef exporters. Any Government would be faced with difficulty in trying to develop the dead meat trade, while our live trade, especially the store trade, is conducted on such different lines.

I am sure the Government and the Minister are well aware that it was what is called the American box beef deep frozen trade that facilitated our dead meat exports during the past year and not the carcass beef trade to England. It also resulted in our acquiring a considerable amount of American dollars.

Senator Quinlan compared the beef trade with the development of our dairy industry. Of course, one is entirely dependent on the other. We all know the old phrase about the land for the people and the bullocks for the road. Now the people have the land and the more bullocks we have for the road, the better. We cannot produce the bullocks for the road if we have not the dairy herds to produce them. It has been mentioned that there has been an increase of 5.3 per cent. in the number of heifers in the country. That is a magnificent achievement when we take into account our efforts to eradicate bovine T.B. which necessitate the elimination of a large number of dairy cows. As the eradiction scheme proceeds in the dairying areas, more milch cows will have to be eliminated. Therefore, I was very glad to see an increase of 5.3 per cent. in the number of heifers. The Senator also mentioned the activities of An Foras Talúntais. They are endeavouring to get each cow to produce two calves instead of one calf. That is what is called twinning. The more calves we can produce, the more store cattle we can have for export, and the greater our export trade of fat cattle, the better for the country. That is how I look at the development of our agriculture, so far as livestock is concerned.

One matter which I try to publicise as much as possible is the development of the cheese industry. I am a cheese-eater myself and I always try to convince people it is the best thing they could eat. If the people of this country ate more cheese habitually, it would, at this time when we have to subsidise our butter exports, relieve the Exchequer and relieve the people of a lot of their ills. Cheese is a magnificent food and when we travel outside the country, we see the extent to which it is eaten by other people. However, I merely refer to that casually in passing.

What brought me to my feet was Senator Quinlan's remarks. He engaged the time of the House for a long period and gave an erroneous impression. He compared the costs of the agricultural schools run by the State and those run by religious orders. That is a fallacious yardstick—he used that phrase himself—and he should know it. One cannot compare the amount voted to the Department's schools with the amount donated to the privately-owned schools.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I doubt if it is relevant, in any event.

It is hard to interpret what is relevant. But for the references made by the previous speaker, I should not be on my feet at all. Another matter he referred to was irrelevant because it is being dealt with in the Dáil at present. He referred to the "Space Commission Report." That is a little invention of his own. He was referring to the Commission dealing with University college education and the location of U.C.D. I shall not go into that today, although Senator Quinlan did. When the matter comes before the House, I shall have something to say about it. I am dead against it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is a motion on it.

We shall have a chance of discussing that as well. Senator Quinlan got his blow in first, whether it was in order or not.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is doubly irrelevant. It is not in the Bill and there is a motion on it as well.

I always like to hear Senator McGuire speak. He always says some very relevant things. The Senator referred to the hostility between private enterprise and State enterprise. My understanding of State enterprise, as it has operated up to the present, is that State enterprise had to do the things which private enterprise either could not or would not do. I instance Bord na Móna, the E.S.B., Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann and Irish Shipping. Ceimicí Teoranta was not actually a success. Nobody would touch any of these enterprises. Nobody would touch the Glenamoy Peat Development project, which was under discussion here some time ago. The position is that the State has to do things which private enterprise could not or would not do.

The Central Fund Bill gives us an opportunity every year to discuss every aspect of government and its working. In that regard, some of us show an ability to deliver twin speeches, and even sometimes quin speeches. I was interested in the remarks made by Senator McGuire in relation to private enterprise and the possibility that opportunities might be given now to private enterprise to take over or participate in some of the existing semi-State organisations. I noticed that he would not touch C.I.E. I wonder why. Does he think that private enterprise might not be able to operate as well as C.I.E.? Perhaps it is because he thinks no money can be made out of it.

I was rather interested in his reasoning. He seems to think it would be a good idea for private enterprise to enter into undertakings now which have been set up by the State. He used the phrase "private enterprise by way of State guarantee." I think what the Senator meant was that there is money available for investment, but there is a dearth of enterprise, that the State should provide that enterprise and should also guarantee the capital, and the profits on that capital. If that is private enterprise, it is completely divorced from what I thought constituted private enterprise, with emphasis on "enterprise".

I should like now to refer to the statement of the Taoiseach when he intervened in the debate on the Vote on Account in the Dáil. He rightly pointed out that the Estimates embodied in the Central Fund Bill show three main heads of increased expenditure. One of these—this is the one in which I am particularly interested— is the higher pay for civil servants, teachers, Garda and the Army, which, in all, amounts to over £2,000,000 in a full year. The Taoiseach chided the Opposition for the situation which has developed. As he expressed it, successive Governments here have in a large measure surrendered their freedom of action in respect of remuneration of public servants by their acceptance of the various arbitration agreements now in operation.

Instead of chiding the Opposition. I think the Taoiseach should be congratulating himself and his Government. For the first time, for quite a long time, the Government, in the discussions on salary and wage increases for their servants, faced up to realities, accepted their responsibility and agreed to the increases in negotiation. These increases were not awarded by any arbitrator. They were agreed in negotiation by both sides. The Taoiseach and his Government are to be commended on facing up to realities and accepting their responsibility. I am told by trade union colleagues that the good example set by the Government in December was quickly followed by most semi-State undertakings and claims submitted by the trade unions in respect of the employees concerned were quickly and fairly satisfactorily settled.

The Taoiseach went on to say that the recent increases in wages and salaries including, I presume, the increase in the case of the Government's own servants, were not occasioned by any increase in the cost of living. I have more respect for the Taoiseach, his ability and his experience, than to imagine that he was mistaken. I am sure that, before the Government decided to negotiate and make an acceptable offer in respect of the claims on behalf of their own servants, they were fully aware of the statement of claim and the reasons for it. The reasons for the recent round of wage and salary increases—the 7th round, as it is called—are clearly related to the change in the cost of living.

It would be no harm to remind Senators of what happened after the 1957 Budget. As a result of the action taken by the Government then, there was a fairly substantial increase in the cost of living. Trade unions were urged, and encouraged, by the Taoiseach, who was then Minister for Industry and Commerce, to exercise restraint for the benefit of the economy as a whole. The trade unions did exercise restraint, did enter into top level negotiations and discussions with employers' organisations and did agree, in the interests of the economy as a whole, not to seek increases higher than a maximum of 10/- per week—a maximum which in no way compensated for the change in the cost of living since the previous adjustment in wages and salaries. The trade unions did exercise restraint and did respond to the appeals made at that time. It is an undoubted fact that many of them, because of their organisational strength, could have forced increases of a much higher level than the 10/- maximum voluntarily accepted.

The trade unions behaved with a commendable restraint; they behaved in what some of us regard as a very responsible manner, having been told there was a crisis in the economy and having been asked to pull together and accept this lowering in the standard of living in the interests of the economy as a whole. The employers and the Government certainly did not suppose that the trade unions were accepting a permanent reduction in the standard of living of their members. That was a voluntary maximum accepted by the trade unions in the interests of the nation, and in the interests of the economy, to permit the economy to recover. It was in everybody's mind that when the economy had recovered the trade unions would seek to restore their former standard.

The seventh round of increases, which was referred to by the Taoiseach, was based on the change in the cost of living since the fifth round increase. The sixth round, the flat increase of 10/-, was a partial compensation for the change in the cost of living accepted at that time in the interests of the economy. When the trade unions thought the economy had sufficiently recovered, they came back in the seventh round for a recovery of the standard of living of their members. It was clearly based on the cost of living.

I recollect reading in the newspapers a report of the statement of claim lodged by the Civil Service Organisations with the Government. It was clearly stated that it was a claim for a 12½ per cent. increase on the 1955 standard of salaries, by reason of a change in the cost of living since that time, less the 10/- flat—or 7/6d., I think, for females— which was accepted after negotiation by the organisations, I think, about 1958. We can put it out of our minds that, when the Taoiseach was speaking in the debate in the Dáil, he was in any way misled, or in any way in error, as to the basis of the seventh round of increases initiated in the autumn of 1959.

Another relevant point about these increases, and it was a welcome point, was that they had been negotiated quickly, satisfactorily and with very little industrial disturbance. I find it difficult to think of strikes which have arisen out of the claims being pursued by the trade unions in the seventh round increase. There may have been one or two, but they have not been widespread. That, of itself, seems to me to be a recognition of the merits of the claims, made by the trade unions, and it is also an indication of the ability of industry, generally, to meet those claims. In those circumstances, and with the restraint to which I have referred following the 1957 Budget, the trade union movement would have expected some recognition by the Taoiseach and the Government of that restraint, instead of being pilloried in the Taoiseach's speech as the bad boys and the people who, because of the action they have taken, will bring ill to the economy of the country.

It seems to me that an attempt is being made and will be made to make the trade unions the scapegoat for the failure of the Government to redeem their pre-election promises and possibly also the scapegoat for what the Taoiseach apparently envisages as the gloomy outlook for the economy in the next year. Reference was made in the Taoiseach's speech to the effect on the cost of living of the increases secured by the trade unions. I accept, and every realistic persons accepts, that in quite a few industries and services, it is inevitable that increases in prices will result from increases in wages. For example, reference was made by the Taoiseach to the bakery trade, but, in the whole economy it is clear that the increases secured by the trade unions can be absorbed without any increase in prices.

I say that for two reasons: first, the level of profits being made by employing organisations and, secondly, the improved productivity as a result of co-operation between management and employees. I notice that some up-to-date information with regard to the level of profits was given by Deputy Casey in the Dáil. At column 471, volume 180, of the Official Report, he pointed out that of some 150 public companies who publish their trading accounts, approximately 50 of those publish them at the end of the year, 31st December, so the results of those 50 are not yet available, but of the other 100, their accounting year ends on some other date during the year. Deputy Casey said that he had looked at the trading result of 93 of those public companies and in respect of those 93, he says:

...taking the financial year 1957-58 as against the financial year 1958-59 their increase in profits amounted to 42 per cent.

I notice he challenged the Taoiseach, the Government or anybody else to dispute those figures and I do not see——

I dealt with them.

I shall look them up.

I dealt with them in the Dáil afterwards.

I shall be glad to look them up because this information comes from the trade union movement and, so far as I know, it is correct and was not taken out simply for propaganda purposes. It is clear that there has been that increase in profits. I am not criticising firms for increasing their efficiency and making their profits. The point I am making is that there was that ability to absorb the increased wages. The trade union movement cannot be blamed or criticised, after accepting the restraint since 1957-58, for moving in 1959 to try to recover the standard of living for their members when we have this improvement in industry and business generally.

Secondly, in regard to productivity, I notice in an article published in the Irish Times by Mr. Garrett Fitzgerald that improved productivity in 1959 went half way towards wiping out the impact of the seventh round upon production costs. He estimated that if the same rate of improvement continued in 1960, the cost per unit of output at the end of that year would be no higher than at the end of 1958; that, on the other hand, if the growth of productivity is reduced, if it is only half the 1959 rate, the labour cost per unit produced would have risen by only 2 per cent. in two years.

He goes on to explain that that does not necessarily mean that there would be an increase of 2 per cent. in the price of the end product. As a high proportion of the goods consumed here are imported, the increase in the general price level of goods would not be 2 per cent. but one-third of one per cent.

I must point out here that Mr. Fitzgerald was, as he said himself, relating these figures to manufacturing industries only. However, other wages and salaries outside the manufacturing industries have risen, as, for example, those of civil servants. Some people seem to assume that civil servants are a sort of archaic body composed of people who are reluctant or opposed to improving methods, improving organisation, cutting costs. My experience is quite the contrary. I do not deal with civil servants but in the trade union movement I deal with reorganisation. It is a fact that if a clear, intelligent picture can be put across to the workers, they are always keen to make the job more efficient. There is always that natural pride in doing things better, in getting a better result. I feel sure the situation must be the same in the Civil Service.

From what I know of the leaders of the Civil Service organisations, I think that, in ability and intelligence, they rank very high. I should imagine there would be anxiety and readiness to co-operate amongst the ranks of the civil servants to improve productivity and to increase efficiency and thereby lessen the eventual cost to the Exchequer of the increase in wages and salaries granted to them by the Government.

In all these efforts to improve productivity, it must always be remembered that the initiative must lie with the employing organisation, that the initiative must lie with the management. I think that point was made previously. I was rather surprised to hear Senator McGuire say today that the trade unions should be ready to co-operate to increase productivity. It is not generally known but it is a fact that for years the trade unions had to press against the opposition of some employing organisations to have the National Productivity Committee set up in this country—I think one of the last countries in Europe to set up a National Productivity Committee. I suppose people would think that that would be because of the reluctance of the trade unions, of the opposition of the trade unions. Instead, the opposition was from the other side. The trade unions had to press for years and to express an anxiety to have a National Productivity Committee set up. It is now set up and we need not go back too far but let bygones be bygones.

The point must be made clear that employing organisations or employers cannot pontificate and say that the trade unions must be ready to co-operate to increase productivity. They are ready all the time but the initiative and the planning is the responsibility of management and of the employing organisation. You will find that where they know their job, where they know what they are talking about, where they have intelligent initiative, there is generally no difficulty whatever in getting the co-operation of the trade unions and the workers represented by those trade unions. They should remember, however, that the aim should be to increase productivity and not to increase unemployment or increase emigration.

I do not want to appear critical of employers or employers' organisations. I think there is a need—I shall come back to this again—for co-operation all round to improve the economy of the country. In my time in trade union affairs, I have dealt with one particular body of employers. I often say hard things about them. I often fight with them. I was shocked on an occasion some months ago when there was a national gathering of employers and trade union representatives to find that the employers I had been dealing with were in fact 20th century, whereas many of those in Ireland are mid-Victorian. I was really horrified at their attitude—people who quite obviously imagine that workers are some sort of inferior beings and that employers are from some other planet but do not live here in Ireland at all. The more quickly they change that attitude, the better for themselves and the better for the people they are employing. There is a need in this country not alone to have adult education of workers and of trade union representatives, and we do our best in that respect, but there is also a very clear need for the education of management and employers.

I referred to the increase in the cost of living which the Taoiseach says will result from the increases secured by workers. It should be noted that this seventh round started in the early autumn of 1959. Quite a body of workers had secured their increases before the end of 1959. That must have influenced the Government in agreeing at negotiation level in, I think, the week before Christmas to give an increase to their servants. They were probably influenced by the fact that there had been this general movement in wages and salaries, certainly wages, in outside industry. They are to be complimented on facing up to realities and accepting their responsibilities. Now they make me wonder whether they did accept responsibilities at all on that occasion because I notice that when the Taoiseach was speaking he reminded us as follows:

"When I was speaking in the Adjournment Debate last December, I said that there was no factor operating, or likely to operate in the foreseeable future, which could cause the upward movement in prices to be resumed, except a general increase in wages."

The reference is Column 321 of Volume 180 of the Official Report. When I read that, I said that he must have been talking about December, 1958, because already, in 1959, he was agreeing to an upward rise in wages for all the employees in the State, but no.

I find that debate was on 10th and 11th December, 1959, and, I think, already they were in the process of making offers to the representatives of their civil servants. I should imagine so because the agreement was announced just a few days before Christmas and at that time, apparently, the Taoiseach was saying that there was no factor operating which would lead to an increase in prices except a general increase in wages to which he and his Government apparently agreed at that time and rightly so.

What has happened in regard to prices? This round of increases, as I have said, started early in the autumn of 1959. One would expect by the time the mid-February consumer price index came to be published, that if it were to affect prices, it would have already given some such indication. In fact—the Minister and his colleagues have boasted about this—the mid-February figure shows no increase. There may be a fractional element but it is still expressed as 144. May I ask the Minister am I wrong again?

It was 144 before there was this seventh round of increases at all. It was 144 in November and 144 in February. Where were all these price increases? When are they to come? I hope the Taoiseach was not giving them the green light because that is certainly the impression he gave me when I read his speech. As I said before, some charges are bound to increase—transport, for example. The increase in transport charges was taken into account in arriving at the mid-February figure, so that has been disposed of.

I know that certain undertakings are only too anxious to find an excuse to increase their prices. Last year, I happened to be prosperous enough to buy a suit. I hope that after the 1st April I shall be able to do likewise. Anyway, the tailor from whom I bought the suit last year sent me a note some few weeks ago to say that in accordance with the increases in wages in the tailoring trade their prices, in common with those of many other firms, would be raised by approximately 10 per cent. on and from the 1st January. If I went in now it would be all right. He would not charge me 10 per cent.

I felt inclined to congratulate the union representing the tailoring employees in the city on getting an increase of over 10 per cent. if the tailor was going to increase his prices by 10 per cent. Labour is not the only element that enters into the price of the end product. I found it fantastic. The employees had got an increase but they had not got anything like a 10 per cent. increase. You will find the sort of businesses which are only too anxious to avail of every excuse to step up their prices. I thought it would have been more statesmanlike for the Government to advise firms to restrain any increase in prices and try to avoid an increase in prices by improving productivity and by absorbing wage increases in their profits where it was possible to do so, instead of pointing to what the Taoiseach referred to, I think, as the inevitable rise in prices.

I think that is a very poor attitude for the Government to adopt. To my mind, it certainly is not very wise. I say that because the trade unions cannot be expected to be restrained or responsible when they see other groups without any restraint and without that sense of responsibility. If they see employers, if they see traders, increasing their prices needlessly—I stress the word "needlessly"—apparently with the encouragement and blessing of the Government, then the trade unions will react and they are not again going to accept voluntarily a reduction in the standard of living of their people.

Since I read it I have wondered what was the purpose of the Taoiseach's speech and why he took the line he did. It could well be that he was preparing the ground for a future announcement by the Government of subsidies to agriculture. I may say that if certain sections of agriculture need help, then, I for one would not oppose assistance if it was necessary and helpful but such subsidisation, such assistance, should be advocated and argued on its merits and not by way of an attack on the trade union movement for trying to restore the standard of living of their people.

The trade union movement should not be criticised—I am making this point strongly—for endeavouring, and largely succeeding, to restore the standard of living that their members enjoyed prior to the election of this Government. We cannot accept that because the Fianna Fáil Government are in office the standard of living of the trade union members must necessarily be lower. One of the results of this line being adopted is that to me, at least, it seems to tend to set one section of the community against another.

It may be good politics to go to the farmers and say: "It is all the fault of these trade unions, of the organised industrial workers who without regard to your needs have increased their purchasing power." I know that in the trade union movement there is a great deal of respect for farmers and farmers' organisations, particularly the younger farmers. We regard them as intelligent, go-ahead and really fine types. The trouble may be, of course, that they do not get into a position to operate their farms until they are far too old. I have been impressed by the work done by such voluntary rural organisations as Muintir na Tíre, Macra na Feirme, the I.C.A. and Muintir na Tuaithe. These voluntary organisations have, in my opinion, been doing a great deal of good for the farmers and for life in the rural community.

With the good work which they are doing, and with what is obviously a better standard of farming, I am surprised to find that there has been this drop in farm revenue. Whether that is real I do not know because I noticed, subsequent to the Taoiseach's speech, that when the census of stock on the land at the end of the year was published it showed there was a big rise as compared with the previous year. In other words the stock, in another sense of the word, was higher. It was not sold but it is still there and still represents wealth and I hope it will be sold at good prices later on.

I am not entering into a discussion or argument about farming and the effects and evils of the drop in income for the farming community. What I say is that it is most unwise for any Government to start putting one section of the community against another. I am afraid that is what they are attempting to do in blaming the trade unions for doing what was their duty and what it was manifestly right to do in the circumstances.

This Government has been calling for cooperation and the Taoiseach has been very prominent in that respect. I think he has been getting cooperation. He has been asking for cooperation from all sections of the community to improve our economy——

The Senator is making a cooperative speech, anyway.

——and I think the temper of the people is to welcome cooperation, to welcome a coming together and forgetting what Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil said 30 or 40 years ago. The younger generation especially are not too interested in that. They want to get on with the job of trying to improve the country. I hope that that is still the attitude of the Government but I doubt if it is the attitude of some Ministers.

I have referred at length to the Taoiseach's speech and I shall leave it at that, but I read, with a sense of horror, a speech made by another Minister reported in the Irish Press of the 22nd of this month. It was a speech by the Minister for Defence. Apparently “defence” is now interpreted as defence of the Irish language. The Minister for Defence has his views and I am sure they are sincere views. He is entitled to them but this is the sort of thing he is saying:

The descendants of the people of Dublin Castle are still amongst us and the people of the generation which had carried on the fight for national ideals were growing old.

He then introduces the words "fifth column."

The fifth column against the language and against nationality was now preparing to fight.

An attack, according to Deputy K. Boland, on the Irish language was:

coming from people who purported to be educational experts,—

I do not know who these are—

—from politicians who pretended they were working for the welfare of the nation, even though there was not an atom of nationalism in them. It was also coming from a new organisation that was non-political in name but whose object was to do away with the independence of this country and place us once again in the British Empire.

If you read that 30 years ago it would be too bad. Are we or are we not becoming an adult democracy? This sort of nonsense is deplorable from a Minister of State. As I said——

In a democracy everybody must express his opinion——

Yes, but that is irresponsible.

——except Ministers.

Yes, he has a right to advocate the restoration of the Irish language.

Certainly.

I believe he is sincere about it but why attack and call fifth columnists, and I suppose British Empire agents, anybody who does not agree with methods for the revival of the language? That is typical of——

Perhaps he is sincere in that too.

Sincere in that? He may be.

That raises serious questions.

As I say, I hoped we were becoming an adult democracy and I think we are. There is a feeling amongst the younger generation that once a Government is elected that, even though they may not support the Party from which that Government is drawn, they are prepared to cooperate and work with that Government. Somebody remarked "sometimes". Perhaps that is so but there is an increasing inclination to work with the Government, that it is the rightful Government, that we should support it and work with it. I am beginning to doubt, however, whether the present Government, in spite of what they said about cooperation, really want cooperation and are not more interested in scoring Party propaganda points.

The Senator would not do that.

I would not do that. I am not able to do it, unfortunately. Anyway, I have not got the responsibility of the Government nor the responsibility of a Minister. I say, and I want to stress it, that there is that readiness among all sections of the community, and among the trade unions, to cooperate with the Government, irrespective of whether they are Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour. They are the Government rightly elected and the people to whom I have referred are prepared to co-operate with them. Yet the Leader of the Government misinterprets the reason for the last wage increases and he is attempting to blame the trade unions for whatever ills he might foresee. I hope those forebodings will not be realised. The trade union movement is still prepared to co-operate but it will be an evil day, indeed, if by reason of Government intervention or encouragement, or what might be interpreted as that, prices are to be increased when there is no need to increase them. If that happens, there will quickly be an eighth round of increases.

I should like to say something, first of all, about the Department of Education and to refer to the fact that although we have a first class organisation, the Central Statistics Office, for the compilation of statistics, facts and figures, the Department of Education is singularly lacking in certain statistics relating to that Department. Even those figures that do appear are three years late. The Department of Education produces its report at least two years late, sometimes three years late. I should like to make a plea to the Minister, and through him to the Government, for a production of more up-to-date facts and figures about education today.

Why could we not be told, at least, what happened in our schools and educational system for the year 1958-59, ending in July 1959, or the year before that? Is it part of Government policy to keep us in ignorance of present facts on education? I make that point and that criticism on the grounds, not of detail, but of general Government policy, of general Government failure to be concerned with what is going on now.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am glad to hear that. I think the Senator has made his point.

When an attempt is made to find out what is going on now, there is always a coverup. Either the facts are not available or the Minister says he is not going to spend the money necessary to find out. We in this country do not know how many classes of over 50, or over 60 or over 70 exist in Dublin or in Cork, or how many classes are held two in a room or three in a room. When a responsible Deputy asks the Minister for such figures, the Minister says: "I do not know what the figures for overcrowding are, but I can give you an average for Dublin or for Cork." The average for Dublin, when you divide the number of teachers into the number of pupils, turns out to be 43 to a class and the Minister is content with that kind of information. There may be tiny classes and monstrously big classes. Not only is the Minister not prepared to give an answer, but he is not prepared to find out. Why? Because he is afraid of the facts he might discover.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

This matter would arise more relevantly on the Appropriation Bill. The Senator has mentioned the point that there may be 43 in a class. If the Senator were to make the point that classes ought to be smaller, it would be relevant, but I doubt if this kind of case is relevant on this Bill.

With respect, the point I am making is that in order to decide whether classes ought to be smaller, you must really know what size the classes are and you cannot really do that unless you know the facts. I pass on from that having made the point that unless you know the basic facts you cannot plan for education. If you produce a report two or three years late, then you are not doing your duty as a Minister or your duty as a Department.

I come now to Government policy regarding school buildings and I would suggest that Government policy is mistaken by reason of the fact that it does not recognise in practice the urgency of providing more space for schoolchildren. It provides overlavish schools in tiny quantities instead of producing what might be called utility schools with a life much less than these big lavish establishments but which would fulfil the immediate needs of children now. I should like to see the Government turning to the production of utility schools and utility training colleges with the purpose of dealing now or within a measurable time with the problems of overcrowding in classes. I would suggest that Government policy is to spend over lavishly on too few schools. Over-lavish expenditure in this way leads, in fact, to smaller school space being provided per £. If you spend £5,000 or £6,000 per classroom on a new school, you are not from the point of view of the children getting value for the money; you are providing far too little space for the expenditure.

I should like to see a plan for the relief of overcrowding on the basis of the pressing needs of the children. I have indicated that the Minister does not know the facts and I would like to urge him to find them out. The Council of Education has urged the necessity of having no class, now, as soon as possible, of more than 40 children and, as soon as it can be managed, none over 30. How the Minister can pretend to pay attention to such a recommendation unless he knows what the facts are, I do not know. I do not know how he can even move towards that figure unless he knows what is the position.

That derives to some extent from what I call our system of dual irresponsibility. If you criticise the Department you are told: "We have not got the facts because the school managers have not given them to us." An example of that is when you ask for details. If you criticise a manager for not performing his functions as you think they should be performed the manager says: "We can do nothing; the Department will not help us and we have not got funds." This system of dual irresponsibility means a passing back and forth of the buck and of responsibility and very little is done. There are exceptions of course, but in fact a system whereby the blame can always be put on the other fellow, on the other element, on the other section of our education management, is a bad one.

A good deal is spoken in this country about parents' rights and a lot of lip service is paid to parental rights, but the Department of Education has no machinery at all for consulting the opinions of parents. I should like to suggest—I do not want to develop the idea at length—that the Department would be well-advised to encourage the setting up in relation to national schools of parent-teacher groups, advisory bodies, councils, committees —they need not be given a pompous title—but some place where parents' opinions might be voiced and where they could listen to the problems of the teachers and vice versa. If such groups were set up in relation to primary schools, the results would be excellent and we would be indulging in active service on behalf of parents' rights instead of being content with lip service regarding reforms and remedies.

With regard to criticism on matters of education, Fr. Perrott, I think, the head of Mungret College, has said that parents were too often reluctant to criticise because the schools were either managed or run by a religious order. He said, quite rightly, that if parents felt an injustice was being done they should not be scared of criticising. I suggest that an individual parent might be more diffident about doing that in those circumstances than a recognised committee or advisory council of parents. Parents should have some such machinery. They should be invited to give their opinions about the school and to come and listen to some of the problems that arise on the other side.

The problem of heating and cleaning schools is one about which some parents feel very strongly without realising what is the basis of expenditure. In the Estimates, one of the items where there is a reduction this year is £7,000 for heating and cleaning primary schools.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is definitely a matter for the Appropriation Bill. It is certainly detail.

I am sorry. I think the way in which such problems are dealt with at the moment is bad because there is insufficient local consultation with parents.

I should like to turn to the question of the Universities. I noticed with some distress that the Minister is reported as saying in the Dáil that he is opposed to any kind of amalgamation between Trinity College and the National University, or University College, Dublin, because of certain facts which he put before the Dáil which, in my opinion, were not correctly interpreted. The way in which he put it was that the Irish people will remember that during the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries Irish Catholics who wanted to attend Trinity College could not do so without abjuring their faith. It should be stated that the disabilities to which Catholics were subjected were done away with as far back as 1793 up to which time it was necessary— quite wrongly and without any justification—to take a form of religious oath. Such an oath continued in Oxford and Cambridge, as I understand it, up to 1890 and for that reason Lord Acton, instead of going to an English university, went to Munich.

I think we can at least recognise the fact that in that matter, while in earlier centuries Trinity College was very much in the wrong, it was, in fact, 100 years ahead of Oxford and Cambridge in removing this disability placed upon Catholics. I think it is only fair to remember that. I had a great-uncle, Fr. Eugene Sheehy, who was educated at the Irish College in Paris because if he had gone to Maynooth, he would have had to take an oath of allegiance to the British Crown.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not know what that has got to do with Government policy, and particularly with the Minister for Finance.

I am relating this to the fact that it has been stated responsibly only yesterday in the Dáil that a Catholic in the 19th century could not go to Trinity College without abjuring his Faith.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I take it that if it were stated in the Dáil it was relevant to whatever business was before the Dáil.

It was the Minister for Education, referring to general policy. He himself referred to the question of amalgamation and put this forward as an argument against it. I am sure he put it forward in good faith.

I do not know what the Press report was. If it gave the impression that he was against amalgamation it was wrong. He was only giving the arguments against amalgamation.

I do not want to dwell further on that. I have said what I wanted to say.

Business suspended at 6.5 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.

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