May I suggest to the Seanad that when the Minister indicates the meaning of the amendments made by the Dáil we shall look upon that as the report of the Dáil amendments to the Seanad. The House might then consider these amendments only on the Report Stage and then go on to the Fifth Stage when the contents of the Bill may be debated. Alternatively, the Seanad might care to combine the two discussions. It is a matter for the Seanad.
Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959 (Seanad Bill Amended by Dáil). - Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959 (Seanad Bill Amended by Dáil)—Report and Final Stages.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration.
I think we might hear the Minister and after the amendments have been discussed on the Report Stage go on to the Fifth Stage.
Since the Bill was passed by the Seanad, a number of amendments have been made by Dáil Éireann. The number of amendments is four.
In the case of Section 15, subsection (4) is a new subsection which has been inserted to enable me to give effect to an agreement reached through Civil Service Conciliation and Arbitration machinery with the staffs concerned regarding the superannuation of unestablished staff at present serving in Radio Éireann. The discussions which led up to this agreement have been rather protracted and in view of the delay which has taken place, I feel that I should take the responsibility of prescribing the provisions of the scheme which will be applicable to these existing officers. The provision for retrospective application arises out of the delay to which I have referred and will provide against hardship in certain cases.
It will be remembered that I promised this House on the Report Stage that I proposed, in the light of the discussion, to consider amending Section 20 in certain respects. As it stood, the former subsection (5) empowered the Authority specifically to grant preferential conditions and reduced charges to Irish advertisers, and, in addition, to vary such preferences and reductions to benefit such of those advertisers as used the Irish language in their advertisements.
On reconsideration, I felt that there was a need to define what was meant by an Irish advertiser, and I came to the conclusion also that the preference for the use of the Irish language should be available to any advertiser. Subsections (5) and (6) are new subsections which provide accordingly. Subsection (7) is also a new subsection which is considered desirable for drafting purposes.
As Section 22 stood, it could be held to imply that the Minister for Finance —not the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs—would take primary responsibility for the grants under this section. That was not intended and the wording of the Section has been amended to make it clear that I will take primary responsibility—in regard to the presentation of Estimates and otherwise—for these grants.
In this House and again in the Dáil, subsection (3) of Section 31 which provided for my consent to any announcement by the Authority that they had received a direction from me under this section, was the subject of considerable discussion and criticism. I decided to take a calculated risk by omitting this subsection altogether, in the hope and belief that the Authority will use their commonsense and discretion in regard to announcing that they have received directions under this section.
On amendments generally, the Minister was rather adamant when he was here before. Some of the amendments mentioned now, which were made in the Dáil, are the result of matters raised here. In fact, three amendments he has mentioned, including the first one on superannuation, particularly as it related to certain unestablished people in Radio Éireann, were raised here.
I am glad that the Minister in Section 15 has succeeded in coming to a conclusion with regard to the matter of advertisements. I think it was Senator McGuire who raised the question of how to define an Irish advertiser and I myself was of the opinion that the preference for the use of the Irish language should be extended to all advertisers. The Minister has done that and I think it is an improvement in the Bill. It makes it more lucid, clearer and more effective. As a matter of fact, I think it strengthens the preference for the Irish language which was in the previous section.
In regard to Section 31, we had a very considerable discussion here and I presume the position is that the Minister retains his power to direct the Authority in writing to refrain from broadcasting, and also may direct the Authority to broadcast, certain things—the power either to prevent them from doing something or to compel them to do something. In the Dáil, the Minister deleted the subsection that says that "The Authority may, subject to the consent of the Minister, announce that a direction has been given under this section," so that the Authority may use its own discretion. I think that is a great improvement.
On the whole, therefore, as far as this Report Stage is concerned, whereever the Minister has inserted an amendment, except, I think, in Section 22, the matter was brought to his attention here. All we can say is that we are glad that in the other House he had second thoughts and went a certain distance, anyway, to meet the points raised here. I am glad and grateful for that.
Are we taking the Fifth Stage now or only these amendments?
Only these amendments.
Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stage today.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
On this Bill the first thing to be said is that it was introduced in this House. It is a very important Bill and it was given a very good examination in this House. As I said on the Report Stage, a number of amendments were not accepted here but were subsequently inserted in the Dáil. May I be permitted to hope, that following a discussion with the Minister for Finance here today, this idea of giving the Seanad more work by introducing measures in this House will be followed? If followed, it will save time.
Following that idea, I propose to be brief and to allow the Bill to pass without much more discussion. The Minister accepted very few amendments and as the Bill stands, it still contains Section 8 to which in this House and in the other House a good deal of objection was taken. It should be emphasised that the objection taken both here and in the other House was based on principles of legislation and not on any personalities involved. One can understand the Minister's desire to get a very enterprising and extremely successful Irishman into this Authority and the objections made here, and in the other House, were based entirely on a matter of how legislation should be drafted because this legislation will remain when the personalities involved will be no more.
Section 31 has been materially altered for the better. The Minister has divested himself of the power to prevent the Authority from stating, if it so desires, that he ordered it to refrain from doing something or ordered it to do something. As a matter of fact, most of the Government announcements made by the Authority will, on their face, indicate whence they came and there will be no necessity for the Authority to say whence they came.
As far as the Bill generally is concerned, we have now reached the point at which television is to be launched in Ireland and this broadcasting Authority, when we have passed this Bill, will become an Irish enterprise. It will, as everybody knows, be an Authority which will exercise great influence in Ireland. I am sure everybody in the House will agree with me when I say that we hope it will be a successful Irish enterprise and run in such a way as to reflect credit on us and on the Minister.
There is one point which I think should be made. The Minister made an estimate of the cost of this new broadcasting Authority and the amount that will be required from public funds. It seems to me that his estimate of how little the taxpayer will have to bear is entirely too optimistic. This, by its very nature, is an extremely expensive service. I do not know of any method, and I do not think the Minister knows of any, by which that expense can be so reduced that you can give a satisfactory service which people will look at and at the same time go as low in your costs as the Minister has indicated. It will be found as it has been found in health services and in a number of other enterprises that the cost of this service to the taxpayer will be considerable.
I hope also that the enterprise will not be marred by political patronage, that no attempt will be made to use it for a particular political purpose, while at the same time preserving liberty for the broadcasting Authority to give political broadcasts fairly as between different Parties. Finally, I should like to say that I hope the broadcasting Authority will be so managed and so developed that we can all be proud of its success.
It is a well-known fact that the Government have decided to offer the position of Chairman of the broadcasting Authority to a particular gentleman. While he may be a fit and proper person to become Chairman of the Authority, I object to the Dáil or Seanad passing special legislation to facilitate any one individual, and that is being done in this Bill. It is a retrograde step that indeed may have far-reaching effects in the future. The Government and everybody concerned knows that this gentleman is concerned with the commercial aspect of television, and they have inserted in the Bill special sections to get over their difficulty. In my opinion, this is setting a very dangerous precedent.
It would be much better to employ this gentleman on a wholetime basis and make it possible for him to sever all connection with agencies or with the commercial aspect of television. This is a question of principle and the creation of a dangerous precedent. I believe that if we are to get the best possible board, and that is and should be the desire of everybody, no member of the Authority should have any financial interest in any company or concern dealing with commercial television. We all know that this gentleman has a substantial interest in television. We know that he has his agencies, his own studies, and that he has acquired the rights of many programmes which naturally he intends to sell to television here or elsewhere.
I wonder is it right that a person having all those agencies should be appointed Chairman of this board. For example, say that the board receive three tenders for a particular period—from A, B and C. If A comes from the agency with which the Chairman is concerned, the other members of the board will be put in a very embarrassing position, and it will be very hard for them to remain neutral, despite the sections in the Bill providing that he may have to go outside the door and wait outside until they have reached certain decisions.
This is also bound to place the Chairman frequently in a very awkward and embarrassing position. In this country, with a population, which is dwindling, but nevertheless numbers nearly 2¾ million people, it should be possible for the Minister to get nine members to form a board who would be in no way connected with commercial television. It is a pity that the Minister will not do that.
When I came to the Seanad with the Bill for its Second Reading, and during its passage through this House, I was very deeply impressed by the examination the Bill got by the Senators and by the application of the Senators who took part in the debate to the various provisions of this Bill. It may be that it was because it was my first big responsibility as a member of the Government that it made such a deep impression on me, but it may very well be that the debate was such and the points made were such that I took a deep interest in the suggestions made to me in regard to amendments it might be possible to make to the Bill in its passage through the Oireachtás.
I am glad that Senator Hayes has made reference to the fact that three of the amendments are amendments initiated by discussion on the sections in this House. In regard to Section 8, I am firmly convinced that it is not a departure in principle from the principle laid down in similar Acts, under which the semi-State bodies operate in this country. In the Dáil and in the Seanad, too, I made reference to the fact that in regard to the placing of contracts and the provision of public work, the members of our public authorities had set a very high standard, and we wished to see the same high standard maintained under this Bill.
I also pointed out in the Dáil that 1927 was the first year in which a semi-State body was set up to undertake national work, and since then, a number of Bills have gone through the Oireachtas and many State bodies have been set up to continue to expand the national development that has taken place since this State was founded.
I am convinced that you will get out of usage and practice a better standard than you would get by writing into a Bill of this kind restrictions in relation to the people whom the Government can pick to appoint on an Authority such as this. The usage and practice that have obtained in the public boards and semi-State bodies of this country are above reproach. The method of placing contracts, the method of asking for tenders and the method of deciding contracts are laid down by usage and practice. Invariably, some civil servant is appointed as Secretary to the new Board when it is established, and he is fully conversant with the usage and practice in a State authority.
The only other aspect of this matter with which I wish to deal now is that the responsibility of appointing the members of the Authority rests on the Government. They must decide the degree to which any individual they propose to place on that Authority is committed to a private enterprise, in so far as that commitment of his, or hers as the case may be, would conflict with membership of the Authority. It is no harm for me to name the person concerned, Mr. Eamonn Andrews. He has been referred to here by Senator L'Estrange.
I did not mention his name.
I am mentioning it— Mr. Eamonn Andrews. When the Government came to consider this question of a public broadcasting Authority, we had at our disposal in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs certain advice. The officials of that Department had for years been making themselves conversant with television operation in other countries. We had administrative advice from the higher officials of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. In the country, amongst the public, there was open discussion as to what type of equipment and what type of service the new television Authority would provide for this country.
It was felt by the Government that it was necessary to add to that advice by the establishment of an Advisory Committee, to advise the Minister, to advise me, on the complex and technical questions which faced the Government in their decisions on this matter. It was natural for the Government to look around for a person who had immediate experience in television, full experience in television, a person with a business, a person who was making a success of his business, a person of good character, a person of high ability, an Irishman who had made good in his own occupation, in his own field.
We are making no apologies for asking that gentleman to come back to his own country to advise me and to advise the Government as to what type of equipment we should buy and what class of studio we should build, and to advise us in the planning of this service.
I do not think anyone asked the Minister to make an apology.
I shall not make an apology, whether I am asked or not.
It is wrong to make that inference.
I did not say anyone asked me. We wanted to make certain, as far as we possibly could, that we would have the equipment and the studios capable of putting on the necessary programmes to be broadcast to our people. When Mr. Eamonn Andrews was asked to accept this assignment, he immediately referred to his private interests, and he immediately told me, and the Taoiseach, that if those interests interfered with his membership of the authority, he would resign, but he was pleased and honoured to be asked to initiate an Irish television service. He understands, and everybody else understands, that the Government are free to make their own decisions in this matter as to whether his interests conflict with the public interests in his appointment to this authority.
When this Bill becomes law, this Authority will not be concerned immediately with the broadcasting of a television programme. The work of the committee is not yet finished. The tenders are in for the transmitter, but we have not yet seen the completed drawings and plans for the television studios, or for the link between the television studios and the transmitters. The tenders have yet to be issued for the other transmitters that will give the country complete coverage.
Mr. Eamonn Andrews and his committee are being asked to accept membership of this Authority. They were appointed originally on that committee so that they would know in advance what the Government were asking them to do and the type of equipment the Government were asking them to use in the new service. The Government took two people who served on the Television Commission with Mr. Eamonn Andrews—men with wide experience in law and in business—to sit in with the other three on this advisory committee.
It cannot be said then that the new Authority did not know what the Government were doing to ensure that there would be some members on the Authority, when established, who would be a party to the decisions the Government were making in the purchase of the equipment, the planning of the studios and the planning of the programmes. It will be a good while yet before the television Authority is operating in this country. Between now and then, Mr. Eamonn Andrews, if he so desires, can intimate to the Government that his interests are such that he cannot any longer remain a member of this Authority. We can thank him—and thank the members of the committee—for the service he has given here to his own country in a patriotic way in this enterprise. I am proud as Minister to be associated with him in this enterprise.
I hope this Authority will be an impartial authority, and that we will not have any cause for complaint that it is being used by any Party, or any group of people, for their own interests, for political or any private interests, but that it will be a really impartial authority. When the Authority is established, I propose, in the normal way as Minister, to meet the Authority and to provide them with an indication of what I think, and what the Government think, should be the broad principles upon which programmes should be operated and propagated. In arriving at this decision, I shall bear in mind the many contributions that were made in the Seanad, and in the Dáil, in that connection, so that we shall get or try to get over to the Authority what the Oireachtas has in mind as well as what the Government have in mind as to what is expected from an Irish television Authority.
Question put and agreed to.
The Seanad adjournedsine die at 7.40 p.m.