Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jul 1960

Vol. 52 No. 20

Telephone Capital Bill, 1960 — (Certified Money Bill) — Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second time."

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

The purpose of this Bill is to provide a further £10 million to be raised as required for telephone development over the next five years.

The last Telephone Capital Act, that of 1956, was for £6 million. At that time, the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs explained that he would have asked for more but that acute shortage of capital had necessitated curtailment of capital expenditure on various State services and the telephone service would have to bear its share in the general pruning. Over the past 4 years, therefore, our job has been to use limited capital moneys to the best advantage and I think it can be fairly claimed that we have done so.

Since 1st January, 1956, over 47,700 exchange lines and some 60,000 telephone stations have been provided and the number of telephones is now over 150,000; 46 new automatic exchanges have been opened including those at Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Mullingar and Naas; 582 exchanges were extended; 261 telephone kiosks have been erected; and the trunk network has been increased by over 37,000 circuit miles. The total number of telephone calls handled increased from 105.7 million in 1956 to 132 million last year. Continuous service has been introduced at 101 exchanges where service was formerly restricted and the hours of service at 151 other small exchanges have been extended.

Improvements on the technical side have not been neglected in the general effort to meet day to day demands. In addition to providing new automatic exchanges at various centres, a start has been made with the direct dialling of trunk calls by subscribers. Formerly direct dialling was limited to local calls. Dublin subscribers can now dial directly to all automatic exchanges within a radius of 20 miles and like facilities exist in the reverse direction. Subscribers at Cork and Athlone can dial directly to Dublin and other larger automatic exchanges. Plans for the extension of this facility to other exchanges are well advanced. Provision of trunk circuits by way of radio links is also being proceeded with.

Last year a new system of charging for telephone calls was introduced. Broadly, it is based on the arrangement of exchanges in groups with a single group charging point for trunk calls and a local charge for all calls within the group. At the same time reductions were made in certain rental charges. These changes, which represent substantial concessions to subscribers, have resulted in a further increase in the demand for telephones. The number of applications received has been growing steadily in recent years but it has jumped significantly since these concessions were introduced. Outside Dublin it is particularly high; in the last 12 months it has exceeded the average for the previous three years by 83%.

Although the rate of installation of telephones is now higher than ever there is still, because of mounting demand, a waiting list of about 4,570 applicants, but more than half of these are with the engineers for attention.

The present Bill for £10 million is intended to provide for further development over the next five years approximately, but there are no specific conditions as to the period during which the money is to be raised or spent. It is reckoned, however, that the average yearly expenditure will run to about £2 million. The programme proposed provides for the installation of 65,000 additional subscribers' lines and 80,000 extra telephones and for considerable improvement in the trunk network both on the longer main routes and on shorter local routes. It has been alleged that a call to New York may be obtained in some areas more quickly than one to a neighbouring parish. That is no doubt an exaggeration but we do intend during the period ahead to give special attention to the shorter distance routes. The programme also provides for the conversion of more exchanges to automatic working and for the extension of subscriber trunk dialling on a wide scale. Contracts have already been placed to provide trunk dialling at Dublin and the principal provincial automatic exchanges and for the conversion of some 50 exchanges to automatic working.

With more capital available, schemes which had to be deferred or curtailed can now be proceeded with. The estimated break up of the proposed expenditure is:—

Subscribers' installations and local under- ground schemes	£ 6.42 million
Exchanges — new and extended	2.24 million
Trunk and junction circuits	2.13 million
Buildings	.53 million

making a total of £11.32 million. Allowing for a carry over of a balance of approximately £0.82 million on hand on 31st March last and for some possible over estimation the amount proposed to be raised has been rounded down to £10 million.

In the post-war years we have seen many changes in the life of the country. Old ways of working are being displaced by modern methods and up-to-date techniques. Business is now more highly competitive and a speedy communication service is essential for efficient production and distribution. The value of the telephone service for business, social and domestic purposes is reflected in the growing demand for telephones and in the rise in traffic. We have not by any means reached the peak of development and in the coming years we must be ready to cater for greater expansion. In this Bill we are asking the Oireachtas to provide the means to continue the work and I confidently recommend it to the Seanad.

Mr. McGuire

This is a very impressive picture to put before the House at this late hour, both in respect of the amount of money to be spent and the improvements envisaged in the telephone service. We all agree that this Bill is one we approve of because this expenditure is expenditure upon something which will improve the efficiency of the economy generally. Telephones nowadays are absolutely essential in business and even in one's private life so that at any level of the community or of the economy, telephones are something upon which money should be spent. One reason why I myself approve of this expenditure is that it not only makes us more efficient in the whole country but it is something which will pay for itself. It will pay in many ways: to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in that he will be able to get a return on his money—and that is the kind of expenditure we all welcome—and in the unseen advantages in the improved efficiency produced in business generally.

Another feature that is very welcome is that this money will be used not only to give increased communication all over the country but to give automatic communication. The sooner we get away from the human element in telephones of all things, the better, because the more often we are forced to hear the human voice at the other end from the exchange, the slower will be the service compared with an automatic service. That is not to criticise the personnel of the Post Office because I have always found them most efficient and courteous, but even with the most courteous and efficient staff, the telephone gives us some of the most exasperating and annoying moments of our lives when we have to deal with the human element. We are getting greater speed and efficiency with automatic telephones and that is one of the commendations I make on the Bill. This is a subject on which we could all, I am sure, talk at great length.

Mr. Barry

We are limited to three minutes.

Mr. McGuire

That is a good way to limit things at this hour of the night. On the question of the human element, one of the most exasperating things is that when one has to dial "O" it is very good at ordinary hours but from 6 p.m. to 9 a.m. there can be very long delays in getting any answer whatsoever. I have counted up to quite astronomical figures the number of buzzes before anybody has answered. Once or twice I have asked the man— it is usually a man at that hour—the reason for the delay and he says they are understaffed at that hour. Anyway I take it that this amount of money which we are arranging to be spent on the telephones will eliminate the exasperations of dialling "O".

The only other point is the directory. This seems to be an insoluble problem, but there is no doubt that the print at the present time is too small. We all know that the reason for the small print is the effort to force all the subscribers in the whole country into one volume. It may be all right for people under 30 years of age whose eyesight is particularly good, but we find over 30 that we have to hold the book further and further away, if we are to read it without strong glasses and if the light is not good, it is practically impossible to read it at all, unless one has a magnifying glass.

I feel it would be a better idea to go back to the system of two books, one for Dublin and the other for the provinces. I know that there is a lot to be said on both sides but much dissatisfaction has been caused by the small print in the present book and if some way could be found to get over the difficulty and to get a book which could be read in normal light with normal eyesight, it would be a great amenity. I have much pleasure in supporting this Bill.

Mr. Barry

I also shall be very brief. I just want to congratulate the Minister and his Department on the telephone service. which I think is excellent. Any money they want to spend in extending and improving the service they should get. I should like to ask the Minister if there is any possibility of having these telephone units assembled in this country? Mr. C.O. Stanley operates in this country too and I see that he is trying to do this work for the British Government and I think the inquiry should be made. Finally, I have something more to say about the directory than Senator McGuire said. If the Minister himself has to get needle and thread to get the directory out, will he do so?

Professor Stanford

I rise simply to support Senator McGuire's plea for a better directory. It is quite true that both the print and the binding are entirely unsatisfactory. I am sure we all hope that some part of the £10,000,000 will be devoted to producing a directory which will not exasperate the user every time he goes to it.

Mr. Brennan

I wonder would the Minister consider having some sort of cubicle erected for the public in rural parts where they are using telephones in sub-post offices. Usually these telephones are hung or screwed on to the wall and whether the telephone call is to a hospital or to a mother-in-law, the people have to make the conversation in public, which is unsatisfactory. I think most people in rural Ireland would agree that what I am saying is true and that when a person comes into a sub-post office or a shop to make a phone call, he has to make it in public and that is not the most satisfactory way of doing business. I should like the Minister to keep that in mind. Some sort of cubicle from which the people can transact their business would be better than the present situation, so far as the public are concerned.

Mr. Burke

I have a rather peculiar observation to make. In our area recently we have been experiencing great difficulty in communicating with the port of Waterford. We have made official representations an behalf of the industries in our area. Many of the leading industries are engaged in the food and drink businesses and it is essential that they should be able to communicate almost immediately with the port rather than to have a minimum delay of half an hour. I am informed that the delay in summertime is due to the fact that the lines are very heavily engaged by the tourists, but the number of lines which the tourists can occupy would not be available except for the business people who use these lines for the rest of the year. In fact if the business people were not paying for that system, the delay during the summertime would probably be two or three hours. I think the regulations should be looked into with a view to allowing people who pay the commercial rental for telephones to get priority in such cases. There could be very serious repercussions on industry if the people who are handling perishable products find that they have not got effective communication with the port.

For example, last week, in connection with the strike at Liverpool, I was telephoned two or three times a day as to the progress of that strike and whether or not shipments could be made. One is placed in rather an appalling position if there is a minimum delay of half an hour on the phone services caused by the tourist industry. There should be some way of getting over that difficulty and my suggestion is that people who pay the commercial rental should get priority over the people who do not. I know that one answer which can be made to this problem is that you can get priority by paying double the rate but that is a penalty which one would have to pay.

Finally I want to say that this Bill is a very realistic one. It is an earnest that the Minister wants to give us a better and more up-to-date telephone service. Great strides have been made and it must be a great source of gratification to all to see that the service is so well used and appreciated. While some areas like Cork and Athlone are able to dial trunk calls to Dublin other important centres are still on the old system and some effort should be made to bring the other centres on to the automatic system before one is able to dial New York direct from Athlone or Cork or Dublin.

Another point which should be considered is that important centres should have direct trunk connections with Dublin and with their nearest port. They should not be put in the position that if there is a breakdown, they have to get into a queue and business, especially our export business, has to be neglected. This is really an administrative detail but perhaps the Minister would give a direction that the industry of the country will not be impeded by the regulations as they stand at present.

Professor Quinlan

I find myself in the position of being the only speaker so far who is trying to find fault with these proposals. We are asked for £10,000,000 but we are given no estimate as to whether this service will pay for itself. Will the services produce sufficient interest or can we look forward to their producing a surplus by which the amount will eventually be paid back? In the United States of America and in other countries, the telephone services have to stand on their own feet and pay their way as other services have to do. They have to provide their capital for expansion or make provision for repaying loans. I fully appreciate the telephone service here and its difficulties but let us be realistic. It should stand on its own feet and I should like to hear that this money is going to be paid back.

We value this service but if we are looking for a better service, it is not asking too much to pay for that service. It will mean other demands on the country's capital and I do not think the telephone service should do that, unless it is we are merely investing the money and that it is to be paid back eventually. The charge for a local call at present is threepence and I doubt if it was ever lower than twopence. It has not moved with the deflation of the £. I feel that while we want the best and want everything to be automatic, we must reckon another indirect cost in this automation, that is, the displacement of many of those who are earning a modest living in the telephone services on this work. We have got to reckon with that factor also. I do appreciate that the telephone service is providing a valuable link with the country towns at the moment and a very valuable link between the members of the farming community. That is good but I do not think any one of these sections can seriously expect to be provided for by the community as a whole when we sat here to-day and voted just 1/- to the old age pensioners.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

I should like to give a welcome to this Bill, and particularly to the five year plan for the installation of new line phones trunk circuits, and automatic exchanges. I should like to emphasise— because apparently Senator Quinlan does not appreciate it any more than he appreciated a similar matter in connection with broadcasting and television development—that telephones are no longer a luxury. Telephones are essential commercial and social amenities, and any step taken to provide an up-to-date service, or to extend or improve the existing service is certain of a welcome from the great majority of thinking people in the country.

As the Minister has pointed out, great progress has been made in dealing with the ever-increasing demand for telephones. Much remains to be done, but an energetic drive will, I am quite certain, be made by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs under this Bill, to ensure that we shall have, at the end of that period, the satisfactory services and net-work which are essential in a modern State.

The fact that almost 5,000 applicants are now awaiting phones, as was pointed out by the Minister, is an indication of the popularity of the telephone service, and is also an indication of the job which faces the engineering section of the Department. The Minister referred to the concessions which were made last year in regard to rentals and call charges. I should like to commend him on that development and I hope he will explore every possibility of giving further concessions in that and other directions.

The only real criticism that can be made of the telephone system and its administration—and it is a criticism which we all make—is a criticism of the telephone directory. So far as I understand, it is intended to remedy the defects in the size of the type which was used in the current directory. There is no doubt whatever that for the majority of people, and particularly for those who have to use the public telephone kiosks under poor lighting conditions, it requires a miracle to find a name or a number in the directory as at present printed. I am glad an improvement is anticipated in the next edition.

I should like to suggest in that connection that when this improvement is taking place, the irritating practice of using Gaelic and Roman type for Irish entries should be ended and that the directory should adopt the standard Roman type for Irish entries which is used by every other Department of State. We should appreciate the fact that modern progress has resulted in the abandonment of the old script and we should see that our telephone directory is not, as it is in my view, blemished by the use of the double type system.

The desirability of producing two directories, one for Dublin and its area, and one for the rest of Ireland, should be examined and a decision taken as soon as possible, because at the rate applications for telephones are received, and with the rapid development which is envisaged in this five year plan, it will be absolutely impossible to produce one book of a handy size that could be used in the post offices and in kiosks, apart altogether from private use.

There is, of course, the difficulty of binding. I understand it is not possible to get a better type of binding here or, in fact, if I am rightly informed, it is not possible to get the directory bound here under present conditions. I have often had the impression that with the tremendous amount of State printing — Government documents, publications and the like—the Government should give consideration to the establishment of a State printing and binding works which, in my opinion, in the long run, would result in great economy in expenditure under that head.

Like every book of its type, the directory binding is not as durable as one would desire but, at the same time, I do not think it is quite as bad as some critics have alleged it is. Certainly for private telephone users, the binding is quite good, but where hundreds of people handle the book, turn the pages back and forth and roll them over, the binding is undoubtedly not strong enough to stand up to the strain.

I have only one suggestion to make to the Minister in that connection, that is, that he should examine the feasibility of providing with each telephone directory, in the next issue, a binder or cover of soft cardboard. There are about 150,000 phones in use in the country at the moment, and I am satisfied that if even two-thirds of the telephone users were to pay 1/- or 1/6d. for a binder or cover, it would more than cover the cost of supplying them and keep those books in good condition and ensure that the binding would last in good condition.

There is one other point which irritates me in relation to the present directory, that is, the omission of the circular hole on the top left hand corner which we had on previous directories, and which was very useful for handling the directory, and also for keeping the pages together, I hope when the next directory comes out, that matter will be attended to.

I think there will be a general welcome for the Bill. I should like to support the tribute paid by Senator McGuire to the courtesy and efficiency of the Post Office staff. I, too, have done quite an amount of dialling "O" and, by and large, I think they are doing a good job. Delays are quite understandable at certain times of the night but, on the whole, we have no great complaint to make on that score.

Mr. Hilliard

The delay in answering on dialling of "O" was raised by Senator McGuire. I should like to assure the House that the standard of answer from exchanges generally is good. Tests are frequently made to ensure that a reasonable standard of answering is reached. In Dublin, an average speed of answer of under ten seconds is aimed at, and is maintained for most of the day. That does not mean that a delay of 20 or 30 seconds may not occasionally be experienced, but these delays are balanced up by calls being answered immediately or within a few seconds.

During the evening cheap rate period when there are frequently heavy rushes of traffic, occasional delays of longer duration may occur. The exchange is staffed on a basis sufficient to handle the expected traffic and there is a margin for contingencies but the extent and incidence of abnormal rushes of traffic are not predictable. It is more difficult to handle these rushes without delay in the evening because the total staff on duty is much smaller than during the day. To be of much use to meet such sudden rushes, the staff must be available in the exchanges. As Senators have stated, the staffs in the exchanges do everything they possibly can to meet the situation in which they find themselves during the rush periods.

Senator Burke raised the question of facilitating as far as we possibly can the business community and the subscribers who pay at the business rate. He pointed out that there was a difficulty in communicating with Waterford. This is due to shortage of circuits between Clonmel and Waterford. Arrangements will be made to provide additional circuits on this and other routes as soon as we possibly can. At the moment, the Department and the Department's engineers are studying the situation. Along with the programme to go ahead with the work on the automatic exchanges, planned for the coming years, the Department's engineers have also in mind the other exchange areas that have to wait for development of the automatic system. They will add extra circuits, on a planned basis, to meet the delays that we know exist in some of these exchange areas and to meet also the anticipated rise in telephone traffic. The matter will take time. We shall have to give priority to the exchange areas in which the greater delays occur—that is under-standable—and the areas in which the greater volume of our national business is situated, areas such as Waterford, Shannon Airport, and so on.

The printing and binding of the telephone directory has been mentioned. That has caused a certain amount of criticism. Prior to the decision to change the print of the directory, we received numerous complaints from subscribers all over the country regarding the previous directory. They said the directory was getting too large, that it was falling asunder. People even complained that the hole punched in the directory for hanging it up was causing it to fall asunder. The decision had to be taken whether we should have two directories or a smaller directory which would be more manageable and which would be more likely to endure the full year of its life with the present binding. A special kind of type was designed in America to keep directories within a manageable size. The decision was taken to avail of this type. The same size of type was used in the British, Continental and American directories. The view was taken that it would suit us to use that type, thus reducing the size of the directory, and that the binding was more or less likely to last with the smaller book.

When the directory was printed with this new type, many complaints were made with regard to the size of the type. I looked at it and thought it small. I also thought the print in the directory here did not compare favourably with the print in the British or Continental directories. I found there were technical difficulties involved and that the trade here in Ireland had to use equipment in printing and binding our directory which is also used for doing other work. In Britain, the Post Office prints its own directory. The machine is not used for any other purpose. I have made a decision in regard to the directory which is now about to be printed. I found that the contract had been placed for five years. Therefore any decision now would have to be made with that fact in mind.

One of the main reasons for the smaller print in the directory was to reduce its size so that it could continue to be bound in one volume without disintegrating within a short time under normal use. It is true that larger volumes are bound here but in the case of the telephone directory, the problem is to bind a large number of volumes within a very short time. There are machines for doing that work but the purchase of such a machine solely for the production of the telephone directory would not be warranted particularly as the size of the type used for the directory up to 1958 was perhaps the largest in Europe and the question of its reduction would have to be faced in any event at an early stage.

I have tried to meet the criticism in regard to the size of the print in the telephone directory. In future issues, the print will be heavier, the telephone numbers will be slightly larger and the exchange names will be in blacker print. These improvements, which I think will meet all reasonable criticism, can be obtained only at the expense of some delay in the production of the directory this year. I have seen specimen pages and I feel that the new directory will meet with general approval.

I do not think the Department can do anything in this matter if we are to continue having the directory bound and printed in Ireland. The policy is to maintain the directory in a single book as long as we possibly can. With the increased use of the telephone and the increased number of subscribers, a decision will have to be taken at some stage to have the directory in two books. It will mean added cost to have to supply two books to each subscriber but that will have to be faced when the time comes.

Senator Quinlan asked some questions in regard to the economic development of the telephone system. He suggested that the House should be told whether the investment of this £10,000,000 would pay its way. My answer is that financially the telephone service is in a healthy condition. The charges are reasonable by comparison with those of other services or on any other standard. The service has been operated at a profit after providing for interest charges, depreciation and superannuation. In 1958-59, the surplus was £413,000 and for 1959-60, it is expected to be of the order of £350,000. I am confident that the telephone service will continue to pay its way in the future.

I do not know if any other point was raised that calls for answer from me. Listening to the debate, I think that Senators were satisfied with the development taking place in the telephone service generally.

Mr. Barry

Has the Minister tried to get the phones made here?

Mr. Hilliard

Some work of a limited kind on the manufacture of telephones has been done here, but there is no company at present manufacturing phones in Ireland. As regards people in that business who may wish to establish an industry in Ireland for that purpose. I am sure they will be facilitated to the same extent as any other group of people who propose to establish an industry in Ireland.

Senator Brennan urged the installation of what is known as a silent cabinet in the local sub-offices. Silence cabinets are provided in all the rural sub-offices in which it is possible for the Department to instal them. They are in a large number of offices at the present time. The policy is to instal this silence cabinet where it is practically possible. There are some offices where the accommodation is not there for the cabinet itself.

Furthermore, in some of the rural offices, the use of the telephone is so limited that it would not pay the Post Office to instal a silence cabinet. It all depends on the circumstances obtaining in the sub-office. If Senator Brennan has any particular cases in mind and if he raises the matter with me, I shall have the cases examined and if I find that a silence cabinet is warranted or is necessary or can be installed we shall see the matter is attended to.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill considered in Committee.

SECTION 1

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Dr. O'Donovan

Might I even at this late hour delay the House for a few moments? I am very grateful, indeed, to the Minister for supplying us with stencilled copies of the statement which is very clear but an inference is being drawn from certain figures in it. This reminds me just a little bit of the famous electricity programme of 1954 when the demand for electricity was to double every five years. Let us take the figures in paragraph 4 of the Minister's statement where he said that although the number of telephones went up by 50 per cent. between 1956 and 1960, the number of calls went up by only 25 per cent. if I interpret the figures correctly.

Similarly, I do not quite follow why the Minister, on the basis of there being at the moment 4,570 waiting applicants, should conclude that this programme for five years will require provision for the installation of 80,000 extra telephones and 65,000 additional subscribers' lines. I am not sure about the problem. Naturally the Minister and his Department have a great deal more information about it but you do reach saturation point with these modern amenities at some stage of the proceedings, particularly with an instrument like the telephone which one can do without.

If you take the last four years, it seems to me that there is an increase of about 12,000 subscribers' lines a year and the Minister now expects, on top of that, an additional 13,000 lines. Let me be frank about the matter. This is an enabling Bill and the Minister will not spend the £10 million, if he does not want to. I just want to sound the note of caution to the Minister that this kind of thing in relation to doubling up every so often just does not go on.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

There is room for half a million more phones and we have only 150,000 so far.

Professor Quinlan

I want to return again to this matter of the £10 million. I am not really satisfied with the answer given me by the Minister.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

The Senator could not be.

Professor Quinlan

The Minister in his reply said that the telephone service would be so conducted as to provide for interest charges, depreciation and superannuation. If I or anybody else go by mere amounts and seek nothing else, the bank manager will ask for far more information. He is interested in the sinking fund. When are we going to pay back the capital? Capital with us is a very scarce commodity. We do not want the capital tied up in any State enterprise longer than is necessary. I should have thought that with the expansion that should result from this big investment and having regard to the activities of the telephone service as reported by the Minister, it would have been possible for the Minister to state that we are borrowing £10 million now but that the plan is that that should be paid back in a matter of from 15 to 20 years.

Mr. Hilliard

It is 25 years.

Professor Quinlan

Subsection (2) refers to the repayment of all or any of it. In other words, it leaves it at the discretion of the Government whether they will ask for repayment of any of this capital sum. I want to mention one figure that impressed me very much. It is the figure in relation to the oil refinery business in Cork. At present oil refineries everywhere—I believe there is no exception—seek to write off their capital in five years. They succeed in doing it and are providing a very valuable public service.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

The Senator should come down to earth.

Professor Quinlan

I should like to know something more definite in regard to Government policy about investment. It is not sufficient just to pay interest. We want to know when the capital is coming back to the pool to do more work for us.

Mr. Hilliard

The advances of capital for purposes of development of the telephone system are repaid in the form of annuities. These annuities commence in the financial year next after the calendar year in which the capital has been advanced and are repayable in equal half-yearly instalments of principal and interest combined. The period of repayment of loans raised under the Telephone Capital Acts, 1924/46 is 20 years, and 25 years in the case of loans subsequent to the 1946 Act.

I do not think there is any further information I can give to Senator Quinlan in that regard. Provision is made for principal and interest payments and for superannuation. It is all accounted for and is all amortised as far as this £10 million is concerned in 25 years.

I did not follow clearly what exactly Senator O'Donovan meant. He is basing his calculations on the fact that there are just 4,570 applicants waiting. The position really is that that is the number waiting at the end of a year. The Post Office could have put in 12,000 or 13,000 telephones during that particular year. New applications would still be coming in during the year. The figure means that 4,570 applicants are just waiting at the end of a year. That figure is carried forward into the next year and you still have new applications coming in. We are finding it very difficult to keep up with the number of applications coming in in any given year. Even though the rate of installation has increased, we still have at the end of the year a long list of those waiting for the installation of telephones.

Professor Quinlan

I want to make it quite clear that I am not objecting in any way to raising capital for this development, but I am worried about the general policy that sees in State enterprise something that can be governed by very less demanding conditions as regards repayments than private enterprises have to face.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Professor Quinlan

I just want to get clarification of the Minister's statement about the repayments because, as I read this section, it has the phrase "the repayment of all or any of the sums issued". In other words, it does not in any way make it mandatory that the sums must be paid back. I commend the idea of these terminable annuities. In fact, that is the very point I made to the Minister for Social Welfare to-night. It is desirable to provide means by which people with a few hundred pounds or more saved can, when they reach the age when they can no longer work and need a little annuity, have some place to put that money and get that annuity as long as they live. I take it that this terminable annuity will appeal to that type of investor, but I do not know why the words "or any" should be included which leaves wide open the proportion which the Government may decide in future will be paid back.

Mr. Hilliard

The phrase in Section 2 referred to by the Senator is just a drafting phrase and nothing more. The Senator raised a question on subsection (3) which states: "All terminable annuities created under this section shall be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas ..." They are repaid out of subhead M of the Post Office Vote. Subsection (3) regulates the method by which money borrowed is paid back.

Professor Quinlan

I accept the Minister's statement on that and it is now quite clear that the Government's policy is that this money is to be completely paid back over 20 years so that like T.V., the telephone company is put under an obligation to pay its way.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without recommendation; received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.