I move:
That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:
State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1960
a copy of which Order in draft has been laid before the House.
Public Business. - State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) Order, 1960: Motion of Approval.
The National Building Agency, Ltd., is a company registered under the Companies Acts, having a nominal capital of £100 divided into 100 shares of £1 each. The primary objects of the Agency are to facilitate the provision of housing and ancillary services at centres where industrial developments necessitate the recruitment and housing of personnel whose requirements cannot appropriately be met by local authorities and are not otherwise met by private enterprise.
The necessity for the Agency has proved itself by the extent of the demand for its services which became apparent following the public announcement of its establishment. When the extent of its operations can more clearly be foreseen, consideration will be given to any necessity which may arise for making more adequate long-term arrangements for the financing of its operations.
It is intended that the Agency may, apart from the purpose outlined, fulfil other functions for the State, such as the building of houses for Gardaí and other Government officers whose duties make them liable to transfer from one district to another and who sometimes encounter rehousing difficulties.
This is a necessary and a good Order, but, at the same time, it is necessary to point to the fact that housing in general has slowed up. I speak with particular reference to local authority housing. Figures given in answer to a question last week in the Dáil show that local authority housing has slowed up. While, of course, a house lasts 60 years and while it is inevitable as we proceed in the post-war era that the demand for houses will become less, at the same time, in most industrial areas of the country, it is true to say there is still a grave need for local authority houses.
Therefore, while welcoming this Order, I would wish to see an advance not only in the small things portrayed in it but also in the general local authority housing position for people who are sorely in need of new houses. I would inform the Minister that in the constituency in which I do most of my political work, namely, Louth, there is a grave need and the position in the case of many is pitiful. Therefore, not only should the Minister press forward these proposals but should also make the same efforts in respect of accelerating his local authority housing drive.
I welcome this motion for the establishment of this housing trust. I listened to the Taoiseach in Red Island last October announcing the Government's intention to take this action, but I am afraid that I read more into what he said than has actually been produced because I am concerned with the problem of the lack of houses for letting for people who are subject to transfer around the country.
One of the purposes of this new company, as stated by the Minister, is the building of houses for the Garda and other Government personnel subject to transfer. There are, of course, many other people apart from the Garda and Government personnel who, for one reason or another, have to transfer around the country. A particular instance—it is a topical one at the moment—is the reorganisation of C.I.E. which is in the process of decentralisation.
They are setting up area managements in the larger centres around the country. That means that people have to go to such places as Limerick and Galway where they have very little opportunity of renting houses. The Minister may say that such people should be in a position to build and purchase houses but the major difficulty there is that these people are part of a national service and for the good of the service it is necessary that they should be capable of moving about. They are subject to transfer. Perhaps the transfer will be on promotion but it is very definitely for the good of the service that people should be able to take promotion and transfer from one centre to another.
When their only possibility of housing is the building and purchasing of houses, inevitably they are tied to that particular house or centre from then on, unless they take the rather courageous step of trying to sell their houses and go elsewhere and start building and buying a new house. I should like to stress to the Minister the need for such people. I do not know whether people in the E.S.B. are similarly affected, but it is desirable to try to provide for the letting of houses to such people at an economic rent.
I am not advocating in any way that the housing should be subsidised. Such people as these are not entitled to be housed by the local authority. There is nothing available for renting, except a very old house indeed. I should have thought that this new housing trust would have gone some way towards filling this gap in our housing programme. We have concentrated for years upon the building and purchase of houses for the salaried people, but there is still a need for houses for letting to such people. I wonder would the Minister clarify the position somewhat for me and raise my hopes a little and say that this new housing company would, in fact, build and let houses in centres at a economic rent for such people who, in one service or another, are subject to transfer around the country?
I think the last speaker has somewhat misunderstood the intentions of the Agency. While I should clarify the situation and say it is not the intention of the Agency to build houses for letting, at the same time, there is no reason whatsoever why a company such as C.I.E. or the E.S.B. should not avail of the facilities offered by the Agency in order to provide houses at any particular centre throughout the country and let them as they wish to their personnel in order that they may the more readily transfer, as the Senator indicated. That is inherent in the policy laid down for this Agency. These people have been made aware of the position. Any of those who are similarly placed and who have not as yet been made specially aware, will be quite welcomed by the board of this Agency if they wish to get help in the solution of their problems.
It is not the intention of the Agency to set itself up as the owner of houses for letting throughout the country. That is what I want to make clear. At the same time, if these companies want to be dealt with, it will be a matter for them to make a request to this Agency in order to have these houses built. That is envisaged and may be done. If a company such as C.I.E., the E.S.B., or others wish to participate in the benefits that may accrue from this Agency, then an approach by them to the Agency would be quite welcome.
Senator Donegan somewhat widened the scope of what we intend to discuss here, and possibly quite properly, but the statement in regard to the slowing up of local authority housing is far removed from the actual business we are discussing. The matter, having been raised, however, I should like to say to the Senator that if local authority housing has slowed up, it has done so through its own volition or the volition of the local authorities. It has not slowed up through any lack on the part of my Department or on the part of Government policy. I should like to reiterate that no housing scheme of any worth sent forward by a local authority is or will be held up by the Department of Local Government for lack of money. That happened in the past but I am happy to say that my experience has been the reverse.
That did not happen in the past—at the time you speak of.
The Senator is not quite sure of the time I am talking about.
I am quite certain.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator should address the Chair.
If the Senator is quite clear about the time I am talking of, there must be some truth in what I am saying.
It was a time when political fraud was rife, when Deputy Briscoe was loose.
The dead hand of Fianna Fáil has fallen on house-building.
Senator L'Estrange was asked to sit down recently because he disputed the authority of the Chair.
I sat down.
The Senator sat down. Do I interpret Standing Orders correctly when I say that all the Senator has to do is sit down and get up in a few minutes' time and continue his obstruction?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
This is new business and we shall leave it at that.
Apparently his licence was not endorsed on the first occasion. However, the situation, in reply to Senator Donegan—and I am not taking this on merely for the sake of politics; I want to make it quite clear lest anybody is misled—is that there is no question of building schemes from local authorities not being welcome in my Department. They are being dealt with expenditiously and in fact we go out of our way to try to get them to bring them forward. During the past six months or thereabouts, two special circular letters were sent out to all housing authorities throughout the country, drawing their attention to the needs that may exist, insisting that they carry out a survey of bad housing conditions in their areas and asking for proposals with the view to liquidating those bad housing conditions.
There is an election coming this year.
Over and above that election, and election or not. It seems to be the wish of some that we do not have it for quite a considerable time. It may be that they are disappointed but, however, the disappointment at the moment will be nothing to the disappointment when it comes.
(Interruptions.)
We are weary of Senator L'Estrange.
The position at the moment is that the grave need which Senator Donegan said exists in Louth is a need which the local authorities in their capacity as a housing authority can remedy. I ask Senator Donegan, and the other Senators who are members of these housing authorities, to get after the problem and to try to solve it once and for all. So far as the existence of a pitiful state in Louth in relation to houses is concerned, all I can say is that if that state exists, then the sooner the members of the housing authority in Louth get down to business and relieve it, the better I shall like it and the better the Government will like it.
Again, may I say that the question of the slowing down of local authority housing is not of the making of the Department or the Government? Everything possible we can do is being done. Everything possible has been done and we shall continue to do everything possible to rejuvenate, if that is necessary, and to continue on with the progress that is being made, so that at long last the overall picture of housing, whether rural, urban or town, will have been brought up to a standard of reasonable, decent living accommodation. That is something which I desire and which I am sure every member of the Seanad desires as well.
In so far as the building agency which we are discussing is concerned I appreciate the welcome given to it by the two speakers who spoke. I feel that this Agency—and this view is confirmed by further negotiations which have taken place and the interest displayed by various groups—can do a necessary job. We hope that in time to come, it will be said to have done the necessary job of providing houses where they were not otherwise being provided. I want to say here, as I said elsewhere, there is no question that the operations of this Agency will in any way conflict with the efforts of private enterprise. Private enterprise and local authorities are being asked to do the job and if they cannot meet the needs in any particular place for any particular reason, this Agency will come in and do the job. There is no conflict between private enterprise and the Agency and I am sure none will arise.
Question put and agreed to.