Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jan 1962

Vol. 55 No. 2

Garda Síochána Bill, 1961—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Justice (Mr. Haughey)

This Bill is intended to meet the need for more Garda Inspectors in the Dublin Metropolitan Division.

Section 2 (2) of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925, provides that the Garda Síochána shall consist of such officers and men as the Government shall from time to time determine, not exceeding the total number of officers and men respectively specified in the Third Schedule to the Act. That Schedule specified a maximum strength of 60 for the rank of Inspector but this number was increased to 90 under the provisions of Section 2 (a) of the Garda Síochána Act, 1945. The approved strength of the rank was recently raised from 82 to the full statutory limit of 90 in order to implement, in part, a scheme of reorganisation for the Dublin Metropolitan Division which was recommended by the Commissioner following investigation made by a firm of management consultants into the organisation of that Division. To implement the scheme in full it will be necessary to appoint a further 13 Inspectors bringing the total strength for that rank to 103. The Bill provides for a statutory maximum of 110 as it is considered prudent to provide a margin of 7 in order to meet future contingencies. This would obviate the necessity for further legislation.

The scheme of reorganisation to which I have referred is aimed at improving the present administrative system and increasing crime prevention efficiency in the Dublin Metropolitan Division. It will allow of the establishment of the posts of a Communications Officer to take charge of 999 calls, telephone and teleprinter services and of a Crime Prevention Officer whose duty it will be to study crime prevention, advise and lecture to the Force on preventive methods and enlist the co-operation of the public in the taking of steps to protect and safeguard their property. The scheme will also make possible: the assignment of an Inspector for supervisory control at each of the seven District Detective units; the appointment of four Inspectors for each of the six central city stations to maintain adequate supervision of these areas and the allocation of an Inspector with full station responsibility to each of 15 of the 17 other city stations. In the 2 remaining stations, Kill O'Grange and Raheny, where individual control at Inspector level is not, in present circumstances, considered necessary, responsibility will vest in the Inspectors of adjoining stations—Dalkey in the case of Kill O'Grange and Clontarf in the case of Raheny.

It is confidently expected that the additional appointments which have already been made, together with those which will be made under the authority of this Bill, will provide a big improvement in the machinery for criminal investigations and will, also, provide for adequate control of stations and adequate outdoor supervision in the important central areas of the city.

Professor Hayes

I think we would all be in favour of this Bill. It evidently recognises the importance of the Garda Síochána—indeed their growing importance. Everybody would like to see conditions in which the public would co-operate with them a great deal more that it does at present. It is lamentable to see examples in the newspapers, even in Dublin, of cases where a member of the Garda Síochána in discharge of his duty fails to get the co-operation of citizens who are present. I agree entirely with the terms of the Bill. It strikes me that while there must be statutory establishment with regard to the number of officers and men in the Garda Síochána those who passed the Bill in 1925 must have billed it, so to speak, very well because there was no amendment until 1945 and now we have an amendment in 1962.

One wonders whether the Minister should not have a greater degree of flexibility and whether in fact he is allowing himself sufficient play to deal with this whole question. There are the conditions under which the police have to function and the conditions with which they have to cope are constantly changing. I gather the Minister is proposing to take authority to appoint 20 more inspectors but is in fact at the moment appointing only 13. That leaves him seven others. One wonders whether that is sufficient. I realise the Minister has advice from competent authorities who have given this matter considerable study and have great experience of it. While there must be an establishment fixed by statute, it does seem rather hampering that it should be necessary constantly to have legislation to increase the number of inspectors. I was wondering whether the number now set down, 110, is sufficient in the conditions now present and which are bound in the nature of things to get rather more complicated than simpler.

Beyond wishing the Minister well in his efforts, particularly his efforts towards crime prevention and towards interesting the public in crime prevention, the only comment I would make on the Bill is that I would like to see in it the greatest possible degree of flexibility, consistent with Parliamentary authority.

Professor Quinlan

In welcoming this Bill, we note it is a product of an investigation by management consultants. The Bill applies to the Dublin Metropolitan District alone. We would like to know from the Minister whether the investigation extended to the country as a whole and whether the increase contemplated for Dublin city will be applied to the country as a whole. If so, we must take it that the existing legislation permits that. We all welcome any effort designed to increase crime prevention facilities. First, we all appreciate the excellent work done by the Garda and we realise how fortunate we are to have such a high standard of integrity and incorruptibility in our police service, but we cannot but be slightly apprehensive about the number of unsolved murders we have had in recent years. I hope that the new standards contemplated here may go some distance towards solving some of those murders.

Again, we are also very concerned with the growth of vandalism when we see the defacement of road signs, park facilities and even school facilities. It shows an immaturity of citizenship and it is high time we took more positive steps to combat it. In other countries, especially in England and America, such vandalism would not be tolerated for a moment. I hope in this reorganisation the Minister will have this aspect very much in mind. One pleasing feature about this problem of vandalism is that preventive measures would more than pay for themselves. If we add up the cost of this vandalism, I am sure it would be far greater than the cost of the increase in the police force necessary to cope with it.

The Minister mentioned that a single officer is being appointed to lecture on crime prevention to the officers of the Dublin Metropolitan District. I should like to see that go much further and to see the organisation of public lectures both in schools and elsewhere to bring home to the younger generation the obligations of citizenship and the importance of the prevention of vandalism. In that case the Minister would have to join forces with the Department of Education so as to reach the young people through the schools. If the Minister comes back to this House to ask for a greater increase in the police force for the carrying out of these duties, the House will readily accede to his request. We cannot but feel ashamed every time we see a broken road sign and a defaced park and unfortunately these are all too prevalent at the moment.

Seán Ó Brosnacháin

Bá mhaith liom cuidiú mór leis an mBille seo. Taobh amuigh de chúrsaí tuarastail, níl aon rud chomh tábhachtach in aon ghairm-bheatha ná ceist dul chun cinn. I seirbhís ar bith nuair ná bhfuil caoi ag daoine iad féin d'fheabhsú ann, éiríonn na daoine mí-shásta agus bíonn locht le fáil ar a gcuid oibre dá dheascaibh. Is maith an rud é go dtabharfadh an Bille seo seans do bhreis daoine sa Gharda Síochána dualgaisí nua a ghlacadh agus iad féin d'fheabhsú.

I should like to welcome this Bill very much. While it is primarily an ad hoc provision for the purpose of improving the service rendered by the Garda Síochána, it contains a by-product in that it provides greater opportunities for promotion. While the provision of opportunities for promotion is not the main purpose of the Bill, nevertheless it is a very welcome development. It is well known that in many services here frustration arises because of a lack of opportunity for promotion and this has a detrimental effect on the services rendered by the personnel of these services. This provision is to be welcomed, therefore, because it will help to remove a lot of the frustration which seems to exist in the ranks at present. Every person, in no matter what service he may be engaged, has an inborn right to promotion, to get ahead in that service, to improve his condition in society and to increase his capacity in order to accept greater responsibility. The Bill goes a long way towards removing much of the frustration which seems to sap and debilitate initiative in the service at present.

The Bill seems to refer to the position in the Dublin Metropolitan Area alone. It would be most welcome indeed if it could also have some effect throughout the country, especially in the stations in the larger areas. Where opportunities for promotion do not exist, some provision should be made either in the scales of salary or by way of long service increments. I welcome this proposal by the Government and I think it should have the full support of the House.

Miss Davidson

I should also like to support this Bill because I feel it goes a good way towards removing an old-standing grievance arising from what was considered to be unfair treatment in the matter of promotions and because it contemplates a reorganisation scheme in the interests of a more efficient service. The Minister stated in the Dáil that over the next six years some 869 promotions will require to be made in consequence of age retirements alone and that promotion prospects for the Garda were never better than at the present time.

Most of us are aware that over the years there has been an amount of discontent, particularly among the men with long service, because of their feeling of frustration on seeing men with, it is claimed, no greater, and sometimes even less ability and much less service being promoted over their heads. This has resulted in the resignation of men of ability in special types of Garda work and with most valuable experience. It has been claimed that the delay in apprehending the perpetrators of certain unsolved crimes is due to a shortage of men who had special training in the type of investigation necessary. I have no way of proving this claim, but it is obvious that such resignations are a big loss to the State.

The Minister has stressed that in any such force, only a proportion of the members can attain promotion and, as a consequence, there will be some disappointment. This situation is accepted by all reasonable people but it underlines how gravely necessary it is that as far, as is humanly possible all favouritism, or even the appearance of favouritism, should be avoided and that men who have become experienced through years of satisfactory service should get special consideration and not be lightly passed over when promotions are under consideration.

Nothing can be so frustrating to a Garda, or indeed to anyone, as to find himself placed junior in position to a young man with short service, with perhaps a very good theoretical knowledge of the rules, regulations, codes and practices of the force but with little real experience of putting his knowledge to the test in the hard and rough work of a policeman. No doubt we want these intelligent men in the Garda Síochána but a few years' wait, while they accumulate valuable practical experience, will be all to the good for them, whereas, when the older man is passed over, he may decide to retire, seek private employment to augment his reduced pension and take away with him his accumulated experience—experience which is lost to the State and to the younger members of the force.

I noted the Minister's references to the promotion ages over the past three years and I hope this indicates that some of the changes I seek are already being put into practice. Any cases of resignations through promotion grievances of which I have personal knowledge arose more than three years ago. Handling promotions will always be a difficult problem and as reported at columns 359 and 360 of Volume 192 of the Official Debates of the Dáil for 16th November last, the Minister said:

Other things being equal, preference is given to senior men, but suitability for higher duties and not seniority, is the determining factor.

I can imagine that "suitability" phrase causing some suspicion. I gathered from the Minister's Dáil statement that suitability would be decided by a written examination which, to a young Garda, would present little or no difficulty as examinations with him have been normal routine until recent years, whereas the older man, with his examination routine well behind him, could well be unnerved by the requirements of the written test.

I would ask the Minister to be very careful in measuring even considerable knowledge and little practical experience against a little less ability to tackle a written examination, but a storehouse of practical knowledge gained from satisfactory service in the carrying out of Garda duties, sometimes in extremely difficult circumstances. There is no text-book that can give experience and we should guard against losing our experienced men through frustration over promotion prospects.

The scheme of reorganisation to which the Minister also made reference is welcomed and I hope it will result in greater all-round efficiency. Perhaps it would not be out of place if I mentioned a few points where I believe the Garda services could be improved and where they are badly needed. In and around Dublin, many new housing areas have sprung up. To reach the more distant parts of these estates, it is sometimes necessary to travel stretches of lonely roads, often badly lighted. We know through the Press that there have been a number of attacks on unprotected women and young people in these outlying areas and, as far as I know, the attackers have not been apprehended. Consequently, there is a deal of anxiety when women have to make journeys after dark. There is also the problem of the safety of young persons coming from evening classes and such like.

Parts of these housing estates are far from the bus routes, so that the residents must travel considerable distances on foot, and when it is remembered that the public lighting is switched off at midnight, the danger will be clearly realised. If an attack were made on a person even near a house, the chances of attracting help would be very slight because, with the radio programmes we have today, a scream of distress would make little impact—it would most likely be dismissed as the vocal climax of some of the so-called singers of today. I would, therefore, suggest to the Minister that he would consider having a police squad car from the nearest Garda station patrol every part of these housing estates, particularly the less frequented approaches to them. If a patrol car were to travel slowly—I would emphasise "slowly"—at different hours, at least once late at night, it would give a sense of security and lessen the possibility of attacks on unprotected persons.

In conjunction with this patrol service—and I realise this would be the concern of another Minister—I should like to see erected a number of telephone kiosks where a person could take refuge from a marauder and keep him at bay at least until 999 was alerted. I think the expenditure involved in providing this protection would be worthwhile and would dispel much anxiety, particularly during the hours of darkness. I ask the Minister to consider these suggestions and to see how far he can go in the interests of public safety. As I said at the outset, I welcome the Bill for the hope it contains of better conditions for the men in the Garda Síochána and for the improvement in the service which it contemplates.

Mr. L'Estrange

In welcoming this Bill, I should like to say that I think we have been very lucky in the fine body of men we have had in the Garda Síochána since its formation in 1922. Under the Garda Síochána Act of 1945, the maximum strength of inspectors was fixed at 90. The Minister now says we need a maximum strength of 103 and he is asking us for approval for a maximum strength of 110. I am inclined to wonder with Senator Hayes whether the Minister is asking for enough. The scheme of reorganisation which is presented to us here today has been formulated by the Commissioner in consultation with his senior officers and on the recommendation of a firm of management consultants. That is a very good idea which could be adopted by all State bodies.

I should like to ask the Minister whether anything has been done as regards the rest of the country. He tells us this has been done for the Dublin area. If so, he has left room for the appointment of only another seven inspectors. If it is intended to do this for the rest of the country another 10 or 12 might be needed. Perhaps the Minister has more information than we have and in all probability he is doing the right thing.

If the Minister's action in introducing this measure leads to a reduction in crime we shall all welcome it. There is no doubt serious crimes are being committed both in the city and in the country. Many people are dismayed at the fact that there were five murders committed inside the last four or five years for which nobody has been brought to justice so far and that in all probability means that there are five murderers at large amongst the people of the Twenty Six Counties. It is an unfortunate feature of recent years not only here but throughout the world— perhaps we are luckier here than in other countries—that crimes are on the increase especially crimes of violence against old people and people living alone. As Senator Miss Davidson has stated and as was stated in the Dáil, there is also the fact that the incidence of attacks on unprotected women on the streets, particularly in the City of Dublin, is assuming serious proportions. I think it is agreed that many of these cases are not reported to the police which is regrettable.

A great deal of public anxiety exists because of that. In certain parts of the city, girls are afraid to go out alone and parents are apprehensive for the safety of their children and of their daughters. The duties of the Garda are such that, no matter how well trained members of the force may be and no matter how many extra inspectors the Minister may appoint or we may agree to have appointed, they are unlikely to be successful without public co-operation. I am very glad the Minister has stated that he intends to appoint a crime prevention officer whose duties will be to advise and lecture and to enlist the support of the public. Public co-operation is essential in the fight against crime because the fight against crime demands teamwork between the Garda and the members of the public. An appeal should go forth from us here to the general body of citizens to co-operate with the Garda in their efforts to crush the activities of the criminal elements operating here.

Unfortunately the police do not get from the general public the co-operation and the information to which they are entitled as was borne out by the public Press at least three times in Dublin last year. I know of one incident where a young Garda had apprehended a burglar and had him cornered. The man took out a knife and, according to the reports in the newspapers, the Garda appealed to the people looking on, over 100 able bodied men, to come forward but there was not one person in the crowd who had the moral courage to come forward and assist him in performing his duty. Instead of that they encouraged the criminal to escape which he eventually did. Such cases also occur in connection with car accidents. I know a man who was in a car accident not so long ago. He was not in any way to blame—another car pulled up in front of him—but there were four people standing on the bridge watching him and as he walked over to ask them to give their names the four people went away.

I believe that some of the murders I spoke of earlier on could be solved if certain people had the moral courage to come forward and give the information which it is believed they have. Appeals have been made by the Church and by the State that people with vital information should give it to the police but they have refused. That is a deplorable state of affairs. Perhaps at one time in our history there was a good case to be made for non-co-operation with anybody in uniform in this country but it is completely different today. People should co-operate with the Garda Síochána when they are trying to do their duty. It should be remembered by all Irish people that these people are our own force, that they are our own brothers and sisters, perhaps cousins, with Irish officers, with an Irish Minister and an Irish Government. It is their duty to protect our lives and our property and people should be eager to assist them in the detection of crime of any description.

All law-abiding citizens of the State will agree with the Minister as to the desirability of crime prevention and I wonder whether, instead of making just one appointment to the city of Dublin, the Minister should make three or four appointments for different parts of the country as well. It may be his idea to test it out here in the city and then, if it succeeds, to apply it to the rest of the country; I do not know. We all agree that every effort should be made to wipe out crimes of violence. Those guilty of crimes of violence deserve no sympathy. Members of the public should do everything in their power to assist the Garda to prove to those people that crime does not pay. It is agreed by all that if the detection percentage is high and people realise they are running a grave risk of being caught then fewer people will indulge in crime.

It is regrettable that many law-abiding citizens, while deploring crime, are not always willing to assist in its prevention or in the discovery of the culprits. They withhold information which could be of great help to the police force. In the city at the present time we have teddy boys. They roam the streets in gangs of five, six or seven. They jostle people and push them off the streets. You see them pushing girls off the streets. If you say anything to them their language is anything but parliamentary. I wonder if anything could be done to put down those young blackguards. Perhaps they do not commit a crime serious enough to lodge them in jail.

We all know that those teddy boys have a peculiar dress and are very fond of a long hair style. I have read that in some foreign countries the authorities concerned cut every bit of hair off their heads and then let them out. Permission should be given to the Garda to bring in those people and to clip every single bit of hair off their heads. That would keep them indoors for two or three months. It might do some good if that system were adopted here.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is going a bit outside the scope of the Bill.

Mr. L'Estrange

Mention was made of crime prevention officers. They are to advise, to give lectures, to try to prevent crime and to enlist the support of the public. The crime prevention officer is to give lectures. Would it be a good idea if he gave lectures in our schools? He is to give lectures to the Garda, in any case, and he is also to enlist the support of the public. Now that we have our own television service I think the officer should make full use of it in this regard. He should make use of it to appeal to the general public to co-operate with the Garda and assist them in every possible way in the detection of crime and the apprehension of criminals. It should be impressed upon our people that in helping the Garda they are not informing but doing a public duty. Many Irish people are under the impression that if you tell anything to the Garda you are an informer. They should be told and our children should be taught in schools that by helping the Garda they are not informers but are performing a public duty.

The crime prevention officer should also request parents and teachers to see to it that children for whom they are responsible are taught to have a little more civic spirit and to have more regard for private and public property. It is deplorable that children are inclined to deface road signs and damage public property. Appeals should also be made to teachers and especially to parents to recognise the desirability of quelling any criminal tendencies in young children. They should sternly discourage lack of respect for private and public property as well as anything in the nature of larceny or vandalism or crime of any description, no matter how it may appear in young children.

If we are to get the full co-operation of the people, they must not think there is one law for the rich and another law for the poor. All citizens of the State should be treated alike, irrespective of class, creed or politics. If a member of the Garda performs his duty he should have the full backing of the State. Unfortunately, we find that, instead of that, for certain people, for those with influential friends and perhaps especially friends in politics, laws are figments upon parchment, whereas for others, they are stern facts whose mandate must be obeyed. Rightly or wrongly, many people are under the impression that the jingle of gold drowns the voice of justice. That should not be so. In England, for example, we know that no matter how influential a person may be, even the daughter of a Prime Minister or a member of the judiciary, if such a person is found under the influence of drink, for example, the full rigour of the law will apply. Unfortunately, that is not the case in this country. It is one of the reasons the general public are not prepared to throw their full weight and their full resources behind the members of the Garda Síochána.

It is more than important that every member of the Garda Síochána, from the youngest to the oldest, should be satisfied in his mind that if he faithfully discharges his duties, then, no matter how influential the person he apprehends may be, the Garda will be supported and sustained by his superior officers and by the Minister for Justice. If we allow or accept in Ireland a dual standard under which certain influential people are exempted from conforming with the law and, immediately they are apprehended breaking the law, get in touch with a Teachta Dála, a Senator, a Parliamentary Secretary or perhaps a Minister and get their case quashed, I believe it will be impossible to establish and maintain a decent police force here. It is of paramount importance to establish definitely that if a Garda does his duty, no matter who the culprit may be, instead of being sent, perhaps, to the West of Ireland or to some outlying station, as has so often happened in the past, he will be sustained and supported by all his superiors. I wish to say that I welcome the Bill.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Níl point agamsa le chur i leith an Bhille seo nach bhfuil déanta cheana féin ag na daoine eile. Moladh atá tuilte aice agus dóchas atá muscailte aice mar caoi a chuirfidh feabhas ar na Garda Síochána ins an gcuid seo den tír. Molaimse an Bhille. Molaim na neithe a chuirfidh 'na luighe ar lucht an Garda Síochána go bhfuil an Rialtas, go bhfuil na Cuartaí, go bhfuil an phobail laistiar díobh fhaid a dhineann siad-san an gnó go h-éifeachtúil agus le ciall nadúrtha agus le tuiscint atá ceart agus na neithe eile a bhaineas le cosaint na ndaoine.

Is minic a chloisimid gearánta ó chuid des na Gardaí féin. Is dóigh go bhfuil neithe fós gan socrú go buan agus gan socrú go h-iomlán sa tslí is fearr a oirfeadh do dhaoine atá ins an Fórsa ach tá dóchas agamsa, i ndiadh a chéile, go dtiocfaidh na neithe sin i gceart agus go dtuigfidh lucht an Garda Síochána, oifigí agus constabla agus na daoine eile atá ins an Fórsa, go bhfuil an pobail i ndairiribh mar gheall ar lucht an Garda fhéin, go bhfuil an pobail cúramach i dtaobh sásamh aigne an Gharda. Is dóigh liomsa gur céim chuige sin agus ins an treo sin an Bhille seo atá leagaithe amach i gcóir Garda Síochána i mBaile Átha Cliath. Táim ar aon aigne leis na daoine a cheistigh cathain is féidir na neithe sin agus na h-athruithe sin a chur i bhfeidhm i náiteanna eile, Luimneach, Gaillimh, Corcaigh, Portlairge, Dundealgan agus mar sin. Is dóigh liom gur cheart go mbeidhimid maointeach i dtaobh an obair sin chó maith. Tá dóchas agam go dtiocfaidh sin agus go mbeidh an scéal ag dul i bhfeabhas i n-aghaidh an lae.

Ba mhaith liom a chur 'na leith ag an Aire an riachtanas atá ann go dtuigfidh Garda Síochána atá ag siúl na tire, ag faire ar chosaint na ndaoine, ar cheart na ndaoine, ar sheilbhe na ndaoine, go bhfuil an pobail laistiar díobh le gach deigh-mhéin agus go dtuigfidh siad gur fiú dóibh bheith ins an Garda Síochána. Do luadhadh ag Seanadóirí eile an droch-mhéin atá uaireannta le túirt fé ndeara má bhíonn Garda Síochána i dteannta le drochdhuine, nó cuirptheach, nó duine gan scrupall, nó gadaithe. Is olc an scéal, ach is baoghal gur fíor, má bhíonn fear gabhtha annseo le mí-iompair ar sráid Átha Cliath, ná beidh cabhair le fáil ag an Garda ó'n phobail. Is luatha go mór go mbíonn an cabhair le fáil ag an gcuirptheach. Gheobhaidh seisean cabhair le dul as greim an Garda Síochána. Sin an rud go bhfuil gádh le na atharú agus go bhfuil gádh le teagasc chun a tatharú sin a dhéanamh, go mór mór mar gheall ar an dream óg atá ag fás anois.

Is uathbhásach an scéal é an rud a luaidh an Seanadóir L'Estrange annseo: Garda Síochána ann; greim ar cuirptheach aige; agus 100 daoine i láthair ná tugann lamh nó cos chun cabhrú leis. Is sin rud le leigheas. Is sin rud a chaithfear, le teagasc, le taithighe, le sior-thaithint, a bhrughadh amach as meon na daoine agus annsin beidh an cabhair agus an éifeacht i bhfad níos fearr le fagháil ag an Garda Síochána.

Is maith liomsa go bhfuil caint ar teagasc a thúirt do na Garda Síochána féin ar chursai aimseardha cuirpthigh. Tá sé sin ag teastáil ach ní h-amháin i mBaile Átha Cliath atá sé ag teastáil; tá sé ag teastáil ar fud na tire go léir. Is ar fúd na tire a thuiteanna an cuid is mó de na cuirpthigh amach. Is náireach an scéal é, mar a dúirt an Seanadóir L'Estrange, go bhfuil cúig nó sé dúnmharúgha déanta sa tír agus níl aoinne tugtha chun chúntais fós mar gheall ortha. Is mó an milleán atá agamsa ar an bpobail ná ar an Garda Síochána. Mara bhfuigheadh an Garda Síochána an t-eolas agus an co-oibriú atá riachtanach ní fheadaidh sé an t-eolas a bhailliú mar bíonn baol gach duine dúnta chun an Garda Síochána do chur amugha.

Sin é an rud go gcaithfidh an Roinn Dlí agus Cirt túirt fé: malairt meoin a chruthú ins na daoine ionnus go dtógfaidh na daoine ortha féin bheith páirteach i feidhmiúil an dlí agus go dtuigfidh siad gurab é an Garda Síochána an t-oifigeach atá aca 'na seirbhís féin chun an gnó sin a dhéanamh.

Ba mhaith liom a h-aithint ar an Aire an teagasc sin a dhéanamh go féileamhanta, an teagasc a dhéanamh go fíor-leathain i measc an Gharda Síochána ach, go speisialta, an teagasc sin a thosnú agus leanúint leis i measc an phobail chun a mhianú don phobail gurab é a séirbhiseach féin an Gharda Síochána agus gurab é a namhaid an cuirptheach.

Mr. Murphy

What I wanted to say has largely been said by Senator Miss Davidson and Senator Brosnahan but there is one aspect of the Bill and its effect on the members of the Garda Síochána that I want to develop. I am sure the Minister wants to get the most efficient Garda service possible and I suppose he will be told immediately that he can get that if the pay and the conditions are satisfactory. I do not want to develop the question of pay, except, in passing, to say that I hope the Minister will succeed in getting a machinery of negotiation which will be suitable and satisfactory to the members of the force.

In regard to conditions other than pay, again, in passing, I would say that the Minister might have regard to the fact that the newer generation, the people coming into the service now, are not content to put up with the conditions their predecessors put up with. Conditions in barracks which might be tolerated by the older generation are intolerable to the younger generation. Probably it is the same in every employment; young people coming in have different standards, expect conditions different from those tolerated by their predecessors. I hope the Minister will see to it that something is done to improve conditions in the barracks. It is deplorable to read in the newspapers of the conditions said to exist in barracks throughout the country. We probably have a backlog of improvements to be done but I urge the Minister to put those things in hands quickly.

Another aspect of this matter on which I want to speak at somewhat greater length is what I term "job satisfaction". We are recruiting into the Garda young intelligent people with a very good education and from my knowledge of dealing with people of that type I think it is essential that they should have reasonable opportunities of promotion, of advancing in the service. People of that educational standard are not content, and feel frustrated, if they have no opportunity of taking on greater responsibilities and developing as persons, getting promotion within the service. The Minister is a young man and he has not met that problem of frustration. I think he is young enough to see my point that for this type of people it can be soul-destroying to them as individuals, as persons, if they have no opportunity of advancing in the service, of becoming what I term bigger persons.

The Minister did say, as quoted by Miss Davidson, that in determining promotion matters, suitability would be the prime factor—perhaps these are not his exact words—but that service would count other things being equal. My experience in dealing with these problems of promotion in other fields is that "other things" are never equal. The management—if I may so describe the Minister and his Department—are always concerned to get the most suitable person when a promotion arises. I can quite see their point. They want the most suitable person irrespective of the service of the applicants. I sometimes fear that regard is not had to the damage done to the morale of the staff as a whole when good, faithful and efficient service is overlooked.

I urge the Minister to take a somewhat different approach to the problem. It would be in the best interest of the service as a whole that the senior man should be given the promotion if—and this is a big "if"—he can reasonably do the job which he seeks. If, however, it is deemed by the people in charge that he cannot do the job because of some failing on his part, those responsible for so deciding should have the courage to tell the person in what way he has failed. I think that approach to the vexed problem of promotion would be better than the approach of selecting the person regarded as most suitable and, where other things are equal, having regard to seniority.

Having said that, I must admit that no matter what system or what approach the Minister takes, it is probably impossible to solve this problem of promotion because of what I would term the wrong age structure in the Garda as a force. Generally, they were all recruited at a certain time and we had people of the same age group competing for promotion. There was not an even flow of promotion as a result and now we shall have the same problem again. In the past few years there has been a heavy influx of young people into the Garda and, for the next few years, they will have very good opportunities of promotion, but when they have been promoted, the prospects for those who come in subsequently will be very poor.

I do not know that the Minister can do much about this except by trying to encourage people to retire at an earlier age and by trying to get an even flow of recruitment and a corresponding evening-out of promotions. Unless that is done it will be bad for the service and I would ask the Minister to give some consideration to this problem at a later date although frankly I cannot see any ready or easy solution but I am drawing his attention to the matter in the hope that some way can be found to even up the flow of recruits and correspondingly even up the prospects of promotion.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

In welcoming this Bill I should like to add to the compliments that have been paid to the Garda as a force. Since its foundation its members have earned themselves a very high reputation for efficiency, fearlessness and integrity. It is a very good thing that the force still enjoys that reputation.

There are just one or two points I should like to raise with a view to enabling the force to carry out its duties more efficiently. There are two points in relation to enforcement of the Road Traffic Act passed last year. We all hope that that Act will be effective in reducing the slaughter on our roads and making the roads safer for those who use them. The Minister told us today that he will make provision for the giving of lectures by an officer on the prevention of crime. I suggest the Minister should also take steps to have lectures on the road traffic code in every school, not necessarily by a commissioned officer but by a member of the Garda who would, I am sure, be highly competent to give such lectures. It may be some lectures are given but they are not given on anything like an extensive scale. A few lectures in every educational establishment in the country would go a long way towards instructing young people in the rules of the road for their own safety and the safety of others. Many more young people are now cycling to school and it is often alarming to watch their behaviour on the roads.

Again, I think a number of motor cycle patrols should be provided in every country. The provision of such patrols should not be very expensive. It has been said, time and again, that breaches of the road traffic code come to light only when a serious accident occurs. It would be far better to cure the cause of accidents rather than wait to cure the result of such accidents.

Reference has been made here to living conditions in barracks. Equally important are housing conditions for married members in the different towns in which they serve. These men are birds of passage; they flit from station to station, and from town to town. One cannot expect them to provide houses for themselves under these conditions. Despite what has been done in relation to housing, there is still a shortage of housing in most towns. Such a shortage often makes it difficult to transfer a married man to a particular district even though his transfer to that district might mean greater efficiency generally.

Mr. Haughey

Does the Senator know we are proposing to build 1,000 houses in the next five years?

Mr. Fitzpatrick

I am glad to hear that.

Mr. Haughey

I have already announced it about four times.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

I trust the building will go ahead very quickly. I am also interested in the closing down of stations. Where a countryside has become completely depopulated, naturally a case cannot be made for keeping a station open but, by and large, the policy of closing down stations is not a wise one. It is very useful to have men on the spot because they are much more likely to get useful information about criminals and crime than are people coming in from a number of miles away in a squad car. Those are the principal points I wish to raise. On the whole I welcome the measure.

Mr. Mooney

I come from a rural area. I listened with interest to the glowing account of night life in Dublin as depicted for us this evening by Senator Miss Davidson and Senator L'Estrange. While things may not be as good as we would like them to be in the country, I am happy to say that they are nothing like as bad as the picture painted here this afternoon. Indeed, I am not prepared to accept the picture in toto because a few years ago a distinguished visitor to this country, the New York Commissioner of Police, paid tribute to the fact that he found here a minimum of juvenile delinquency. “A policeman's lot is not a happy one” according to Gilbert and Sullivan in The Pirates of Penzance. Sometimes something happens and there is no policeman on the scene. People stand around, wringing their hands, and saying: “They are never where they are wanted”. On the other hand, when they do appear to enforce the law, they are accused of being over-officious and looking for promotion. A policeman's job in this country is certainly not a happy one.

I did not think discussion on this Bill would be as wide as it has been so far.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It should not have been, of course.

Mr. Mooney

Since so many aspects have been covered, there are a few points I should like to make.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

But not outside the scope of the Bill.

Mr. Mooney

Senator Fitzpatrick referred to the closing down of stations. That is a policy with which I do not agree because the presence of even one policeman can be very effective from the point of view of morale. The introduction of patrol cars does not provide a satisfactory answer to the closing down of stations. In the case of hit-and-run accidents, the police were able heretofore to telephone from station to station, thereby keeping a check on cars. Civilians were able to telephone to stations giving information. Listening to Radio Éireann, I am often amazed at the number of police messages broadcast seeking information about accidents. Surely in a city like Dublin, where accidents seem to occur daily, people can be found without an appeal on the radio to them to communicate with the police.

The point has been made by Senator Murphy and Senator Fitzpatrick that we are dealing now with a new generation of Gardaí and that they are not prepared to put up with the conditions of those who went before them. With regard to the condition of the stations, in one station in my own area I have had a complaint about the heating. I should be glad if the Minister, if it is in his power, would do something about improving the heating or drying facilities in that station. It seems that the stations are carrying greater numbers of personnel than was originally intended. I saw the fire grate in a station in Leitrim. With great effort, I could warm my hands as it, but the Gardaí could not dry their clothing when they came in out of some of the weather we had in November. A complaint has already been made to the Minister about the matter and I hope that something will soon be done, even as a temporary measure.

On the matter of the detection of offences under the Road Traffic Act, I have always had a pet idea. If the stations had been kept open, it would have been very easy to patrol our main roads on a 24-hour basis, and Gardaí from one station could meet Gardaí from another. Their actual presence on the road would have a slowing down effect on some of those people who have hurled other people into eternity without giving them time to say a prayer. I do not think the patrol car has been the answer.

I am not casting any reflection on the Minister, Department, or the Garda, when I say that we must ask ourselves questions about bringing to a successful conclusion the investigation of those crimes which have not yet been solved. Some years ago, there was only one unsolved crime in the country, and it was a hardy annual and was always mentioned as the one outstanding crime. Something seems to be wrong and the public must accept some responsibility. We would be better off if, instead of appointing lecturers to schools, we got the people to realise their responsibilities in bringing up their families to be good citizens and to respect their rights as citizens. If there were respect for public property, I venture to say the work of the Garda would be easier.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Before the Minister replies, I should like to refer to a matter which arose in a discussion this morning, outside the House, of course, with regard to the alignment of the city and the country boundaries. We have the ordinary Garda within the city boundary and the Dublin Metropolitan section of the Garda also within the city boundary. I should like to ask the Minister if that can be rectified quickly because it requires rectification. A big built-up area within the city or the city boundary area does not come under the control of the Dublin Metropolitan Garda at present. The possibility is that vice versa some portion of the rural areas will be controlled and patrolled by the Dublin Metropolitan Garda. I am satisfied from discussions that there is not a rural alignment with the boundary of the built-up city area, including Dún Laoghaire and Blackrock.

Mr. McGlinchey

I had intended getting my hair cut this morning but having listened to Senator L'Estrange, I may now wait until one of the new inspectors is appointed and have a free one.

Mr. L'Estrange

If the Senator deserves it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

He always deserves it at the hands of Senator L'Estrange.

Mr. McGlinchey

The question of promotion within the ranks of the Garda Síochána has been completely exaggerated here today. Educated young men are now joining the ranks and I am quite certain that many of them would not do so, if they had not a chance to better themselves. I feel that the Minister and the Government are to be congratulated on the recent announcement that new houses are to be provided for the Garda throughout the country. In my area where it is proposed to build, quite considerable satisfaction exists within the ranks of the Garda.

However, I should like the Minister to undertake a tour of the Garda barracks in the rural areas. There are many, particularly in the border areas, which are in need of considerable improvement. The day room of a Garda barracks, with a wooden floor and hard chairs, should not be the only place a young Garda has to relax in, in his time off. If the Garda barracks had a more homely atmosphere, things would be better and there would be more satisfaction in the ranks.

Mention was made here today of co-operation with the Garda in the detection of crime. I believe that it is time to abolish the jury system in rural Ireland. I feel that on many occasions it hinders the work of the Garda. In Donegal, it is well known that a jury will never convict.

Mr. Haughey

Convict anyone but a Donegal man.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Some Senator has mentioned already that the scope of the debate has been very widely extended. I think that if the Senator intends dealing with Donegal juries—or indeed any jury—he will be going too wide altogether.

Mr. McGlinchey

I hoped that while you, Sir, were in a charitable mood, I might be allowed to make that one point.

Mr. Haughey

First of all, I want to thank the House for the manner in which they have received the Bill, and for the helpful and constructive suggestions, all of them, I suppose, relevant to some degree, which have been made. If I might deal seriatim with the main points which have been made in the discussion, in the first place, Senator Hayes and other Senators, including Senator Quinlan, mentioned the fact that I was leaving myself a margin of seven inspectors only in the statutory limit laid down in the Bill. I agree that at first sight that might seem to be a small margin but the Seanad will realise that there is a fairly important principle involved —indeed Senator Hayes mentioned it —the principle of Parliamentary control of the level of the police force.

We are not a police State and we never intend to be one and, therefore, it is good that the Executive should have to come to the Oireachtas on any occasion when they want to increase the establishment of the Garda Síochána and get parliamentary permission to do so. Therefore, it would be wrong to seek too high a number in regard to any particular rank of the Force.

A number of Senators asked if this investigation which was carried out was confined to Dublin city and of course the answer immediately is that it was not. The force as a whole was examined by the management consultants who were brought in and the result of their examination was mainly to the effect that no reorganisation of the type contemplated for Dublin was necessary for the rest of the country. Therefore, broadly speaking, we can take it that over the rest of the country there will not be any need for an expansion in the number of inspectors and therefore the margin of seven which we are allowing ourselves in the Bill will be adequate for any slight increase which may become necessary in the country, or any reorganisation which population shifts in Dublin city may render necessary.

I can assure the Seanad that the whole police force was examined by the management consultants and that we are quite satisfied that the margin of seven inspectors is ample. In that regard, I want to point out that crime is almost exclusively a Dublin problem. There is no doubt that outside Dublin city crime is very substantially and very satisfactorily on the decrease at the moment and could not be regarded as anything like a real problem. Recently, I had occasion to visit one of our rural divisions and before visiting it, I inquired what the detection rate was for that division. To my astonishment, I was informed that the detection rate for the division as a whole was 95 per cent. You can gather from that, as a typical rural division, the position with regard to crime in the country. It is essentially a Dublin problem and that is why these measures which we are now contemplating, this reorganisation, are devoted exclusively to Dublin city. That is not to say, of course, that other parts of the country and major urban areas do not receive attention from Garda headquarters. They do.

The fruits of the labour of the crime prevention officer whom I mentioned in my opening remarks will be available to the force as a whole and his work in that way will be available throughout the country. The main benefit which will flow from his labours will be in Dublin city and the type of job he will do will be, as his title indicates, the prevention of crime. As you know, the efforts of the Garda, for 90 per cent. of their time, are devoted to detection work, the detection of crimes committed and the bringing of offenders to book. But there is this separate aspect of their work, namely, an endeavour to see that as far as possible the actual commission of crime is prevented. It is in that field that the crime prevention officer will labour and his main function will be to work out ways and means whereby the public can assist and aid in the prevention of crime. For instance, he will advise householders and owners of business premises and factories, and other premises of that nature, about what steps they should take to try to obviate the commission of crime. He will also, as I said in my opening remarks, lecture the force as such on what steps it should take to try to prevent crimes being committed, but, in the main, his work will be devoted to that other type of activity.

Senator Quinlan, Senator L'Estrange and other Senators mentioned the question of juveniles, "teddy-boys" and so on. That picture is not as encouraging as it might be and juvenile delinquency is a problem which is very much with us and is one of the less satisfactory aspects of this whole matter in the administration of justice and the prevention of crime. Again, the Garda can contribute to this situation mainly in the field of detection. A high detection rate by the Garda of crimes committed by juveniles is the best single contribution they can make to dealing with this problem. I know the House will readily agree with me when I say, as I have publicly pointed out on other occasions, the main effort must come from parents, education authorities, religious leaders and voluntary bodies associated in that field, and it is to them that we must look for the main effort in trying for the best results. In so far as the Garda can help, they will certainly do so.

It is a problem to which my Department has given a great deal of thought down through the years and has constantly under observation. Indeed, it is a problem with which every country in Western Europe is concerned at the present time. It is one of those impracticable, insoluble problems at which you can only keep nibbling away. It is not as much a problem with us as it is with practically every other country in Western Europe, but I would reiterate that the main effort with regard to it must come from parents, religious instruction and from education authorities. I was very heartened recently when I visited the Civics Institute on the occasion of their annual general meeting to find that this voluntary body has the matter in mind and are devoting a great deal of care and attention to it. I am quite certain that in any effort which we make to deal with the problem from time to time, we will have a very great deal of co-operation and assistance from organisations and institutions of that sort.

I should like to correct a misconception on the part of a number of Senators. At present crime is not on the increase in the country. Crime is largely a Dublin problem. Taking Dublin and the country as a whole, crime is on the decrease at the moment. It is a peculiar thing that crime seems to come in waves over the years. We have the number of crimes being committed increasing over a period and then decreasing and then increasing again. At present, I am glad to be able to tell the House, the curve is on the downward turn. It is not terribly significant but it is at least a downward turn.

Some Senators spoke about the fact that on occasion Gardaí have not been able to procure the ready assistance of the general public. There have been instances of that sort and I know every Senator will agree with me in regretting that such instances have taken place. We could get a wrong impression from newspaper reports of this sort of thing because while there have been instances in which the public glaringly has failed to come to the assistance of the Garda, on the other hand, there have been countless occasions when citizens, conscious of their duty, have come forward, indeed at some risk on occasion, to help the Garda in the execution of their duty. I should like to take this opportunity of commending the members of the public who have done so and I should also tell the House that the number of instances over the whole country in which people have come to the aid of the Garda far outweighs and outnumbers the few isolated instances which have received so much publicity.

Senators Miss Davidson and L'Estrange were concerned with the incidence of attacks on women, mainly in Dublin city. I agree we have a problem in this regard but again I should not like the House or the general public to exaggerate the extent of the problem. The fact that newspapers tend to seize on instances of this sort and give them a certain amount of prominence, because I suppose they are sensational, might tend to obscure the picture as a whole. It is a problem and we are giving attention to it. Perhaps to some extent it is on the increase, but it is far from being anything like a really serious menace. We are very aware it is a problem and are doing all we can to deal with it. Over the last couple of years we have drafted into Dublin city more than 200 extra Gardaí, mainly to do patrol work in these suburban areas in which this type of attack is likely to occur.

I agree with Senator Miss Davidson that the patrol car can be very useful in this regard. We are all the time increasing the mobility of the force. This year again we hope to increase not alone the number of squad cars but we also have plans to increase the mobility of the force in other ways by means of motor cycles, scooters and so on. I do not want to take from the extent of the problem but I do want to get rid of any notion that there is a particularly serious menace, that people should be afraid to go out at night or anything like that. These attacks do take place in isolated instances but they are not anything like as widespread as the treatment they get in the newspapers from time to time might lead one to believe.

There are two factors in this situation which it might be no harm to mention. In the first place, the Garda are to some extent hampered in their attempts to deal with it by the reluctance of people concerned to give information about this type of incident. Why people would be embarrassed by doing so is readily understandable. On the other hand, some of these stories of attacks are pure fabrications. I was myself in the annoying position recently of reading in the paper of an allegedly sensational attack which had taken place on a women which I knew to be a complete fabrication, but I was prevented by the circumstances of the case from making any statement to that effect. But that sort of incident does happen and in considering this problem we must bear in mind it has those undertones and sidelights.

Senator L'Estrange referred to something the Leader of the Opposition in the Dáil mentioned—indeed I was struck to some extent by the similarity of the phraseology in both Houses. I was able to give the Leader of the Opposition an assurance. I think he accepted it and I think recent events have confirmed my statement. I was able to give him the assurance he sought and that Senator L'Estrange sought—that any Garda who does his duty need not feel he will suffer in any way because of the influence or importance of the person concerned. I would hope that the House would accept that assurance, because I would not like it to go out from this House that it was otherwise. I am quite sure the Leader of the Opposition did accept it, and I hope Senator L'Estrange and other Senators will accept it also.

Senators Miss Davidson, Brosnahan and L'Estrange mentioned the question of promotion. This is a question we discussed at some length on this Bill in Dáil Éireann. It is a problem which will naturally loom very large in any service like the Garda, where you have a considerable number of members who will never be promoted. The very nature of the service is such that they can never be promoted. In that situation there will be disappointment. But, as I said in the Dáil, I think the main objective must be to try to see to it that that natural disappointment does not degenerate into frustration and despair, such as some of the Senators spoke about.

I want to make it absolutely clear to Senators that we have had no resignations as a result of annoyance, frustration or disappointment over promotions, certainly not in my time and not to any extent in recent years. The Garda Síochána, no matter what they may say, no matter what grouses they may have, like to be members of the Garda Síochána. One of the things I have noticed about members of the force is that they tend to stay in it and indeed lots of them tend to stay in it as long as they possibly can. I do not deny there are grumblings and murmurings about promotions and the promotional system. As I indicated in the Dáil, I intend to talk with the Commissioner about it and to make sure that the system is not alone fair but that it should be seen to be fair by all concerned.

Here I want to explain to the House there is one particular feature about the Garda as a force—that we do not have a cadet system with regard to officers. Any Garda who joins the force can go right to the top and can look forward to being an officer, a superintendent, chief superintendent or assistant commissioner. This is essentially a matter for the Garda authorities, but when considering promoting people we must have regard to their suitability for higher rank. The position is that as far as possible, other things being equal— a phrase to which Senator Murphy takes exception—preference will be given to seniority. But since members of the force can go straight into higher rank, one must always have regard to suitability for higher rank. That suitability is not determined, as Senator Miss Davidson seemed to think, by written examination.

The written examination done by members of the force at different levels is merely a qualifying examination. Promotion subsequently is for those who have qualified in that written examination on the basis of selection by superior officers and interview. Their whole records are taken into account. Their experience and everything else are taken into account and they are placed in order of merit accordingly. It is not just a simple case of the younger members of the Garda being able to do better at examinations than the older members and therefore get ahead of them on the promotion ladder. The written examination, at which, maybe, a younger member would have a better chance, is merely a qualifying examination and thereafter all other factors are taken into account in placing people in order of merit.

Chuir an Seanadóir Ó Siochfhradha poinnte chugam mar gheall ar na Gárdaí. Cheapaim go dtuigeann na Gárdaí go bhfuilimid brodúil asta agus go bhfuilimid taobh thiar díobh ins an obair tábhachtach atá idir lámhaibh aca. If I might give an illustration of this, very recently the Government agreed to expend the necessary moneys to erect a very fine memorial in the Depot to members of the Garda who gave their lives in the execution of their duties. I hope that that decision by the Government will give very clear-cut evidence to members of the force that the Government and the people appreciate in a very special way the service the Garda as a whole have rendered and in particular the service of those Gardaí who gave their lives in the execution of their duties.

I also hope it will serve as an inspiration to the younger members of the force in the years that lie ahead to keep intact these great traditions of service, loyalty and devotion to duty which have been so firmly established. I fully endorse what Senator Ó Siochfhradha said when he pointed out that the keeping of law and order is essentially a matter for the people and that in this respect the Garda are only our instruments and our servants and only do what we all should be doing to a greater or lesser degree— preserving the public peace and law and order. This is a matter for all of us and the Garda are entitled to our fullest co-operation.

I appeal in this House, and shall continue to do so elsewhere, for the fullest possible support for the Garda in their work. I am sorry if I felt constrained to interrupt Senator Fitzpatrick on the question of Garda accommodation. A number of other Senators mentioned the same subject. I just want to point out that the Government, the Department of Justice, and the Garda headquarters are all very much alive to this problem. We realise that proper accommodation more than anything else is the thing that will contribute to an efficient and effective police force. That accommodation is, of course, not alone the accommodation in the Garda Stations but the private accommodation in which members of the force have to live.

What have we done about it? We have done, I think, a great deal and have given very clear evidence of our consciousness of the problem and of our desire to do something about it. The Government have made provision for the erection over the next five years of no fewer than 1,000 private houses for occupation by members of the force in all parts of the country. Now we have allocated a sum of £200,000 per annum for the improvement of Garda stations throughout the country. We have embarked upon a programme of replacement of stations and between those two programmes there will be expended approximately a total of £3 million during the next five or six years.

We have made special administrative arrangements to expedite these programmes. We have set up a special architectural section in the Board of Works and we have specially strengthened in the Department of Justice the section which deals with Garda buildings. Not alone have we made available the money to go ahead with this programme but we have endeavoured, in so far as we could, to see that the administrative arrangements are there to put the programme into effect. I hope that in the next few years we shall see a very satisfactory improvement in Garda accommodation in both aspects—the provision of better accommodation in Garda stations and of new houses for occupation by members of the force.

I agree with Senator Murphy that there is a problem in regard to the age structure of the Garda Síochána. By and large, the Garda were all recruited at the same time and they tend to leave the force very much at the same time. We are conscious of that problem. It does mean, of course, that there are wonderful opportunities for young members at the present time but, from the long term viewpoint, it is a bad thing for the force as a whole. We are keeping it in mind and are endeavouring to get an evening-out between the different age groups.

Senator Fitzpatrick mentioned the closing of rural stations. I want to assure the House that before a rural station is closed we carry out the most careful examination and I think no rural station is closed unless we are satisfied, first of all, that the work of the station can be effectively and efficiently carried out by a neighbouring station and, secondly, in almost all cases we get figures which show that there has been no indictable crime in the area during the previous five, six, seven or eight years.

In that respect I should point out the structure of these rural stations was determined when the police force here was not just a police force but, at the same time, an occupation force. Recently when I went to open a new station in Roscommon I was struck very sharply by this fact. The old Bridewell in Roscommon town was capable of holding approximately 100 prisoners. The new Garda station there has cells for only two prisoners. I think that will give the House an illustration of the changed times in rural Ireland generally from the point of view of crime and the House will accordingly realise that, in thinking of this problem of the closing of rural stations, the picture now is completely different from the days when these stations were built. No rural station is closed unless we are absolutely satisfied there is no need for it and that, in fact, it would be a waste of public money to keep it in existence.

Senator Mooney mentioned the question of road traffic and road traffic offences. Of course, in that respect, the main work must be the responsibility of the Minister for Local Government and indeed of the local authorities throughout the country, who combine in that matter. The function of the Garda is, to a large extent, restricted to putting into operation and giving effect to traffic regulations and legislation laid down by the Department of Local Government. I feel sure we can expect a very considerable improvement in that because of the passing of the new Road Traffic Act last year.

In conclusion, may I mention the question Senator Ó Donnabháin asked as to whether the boundary of the Dublin Metropolitan Division coincides with the municipal boundaries. It does not, but I do not think it matters because the substantial difference between the old D.M.P. and the police force throughout the rest of the country disappeared in 1945 and now we have a national police force which is the same in Dublin as in any other part of the country. The arrangement of the divisions and the placing of members of the Garda in Dublin and around it are determined on the principle of police requirements which are changed from time to time, not in accordance with municipal boundaries but in accordance with what good police work would seem to indicate as being necessary and desirable. There is therefore no reason why the Dublin Metropolitan Division should correspond with the municipal boundaries. I hope I have dealt with most of the points raised by Senators. I shall conclude by thanking the House for the constructive and helpful manner it has received the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.