Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Mar 1962

Vol. 55 No. 4

Royal Hospital Kilmainham Bill, 1961 — Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Finance (Dr. Ryan)

The trust of the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, was established under a Charter of 1684 to provide accommodation for old and infirm soldiers of the English Army in Ireland. In consequence of the change of Government in 1922, the trust could no longer function and the objects for which it was founded gradually diminished and ultimately disappeared altogether. The purpose of this Bill is to provide for the discharge of the liabilities of the trust and also for the utilisation of the remaining property of the trust, comprising the buildings, lands, and chattels of the Hospital, together with the trust funds, particulars of which will be found in the Schedule to the Bill.

Up to 1922, the trust was administered by the Governors of the Hospital, and the income from the trust funds was available to meet part of the cost of maintaining the pensioners. Most of the Governorships lapsed in 1922 with the disappearance of the British civil and military offices to which they attached ex officio. The two remaining Governors were insufficient to form a quorum to administer the affairs of the trust and they were dissolved in 1955.

When, after 1922, the Governors of the Hospital ceased to function, it was not possible to determine with certainty who, if anybody, was legally entitled to receive the income from the trust funds, and the interest received on these investments was, accordingly, allowed to accumulate. Meanwhile the British authorities defrayed the cost of maintaining the pensioners who were in residence in Kilmainham in 1922. Some of these pensioners were transferred to the Royal Hospital, Chelsea, in 1926, and in 1929 the remaining pensioners, about 50 in number, were given the option of transferring to Chelsea or becoming out-pensioners. The British authorities have, accordingly, a claim for the payments towards the maintenance of these pensioners that would have been made out of the income of the trust funds if the trust had been functioning normally. Provision for the discharge of this liability is included in the Bill.

When the last surviving pensioner of the Hospital died in September, 1952, the objects for which the trust was established ceased to exist, and a new settlement must, therefore, be made for the future use of the property. During the years 1922 to 1933, the buildings, lands, and chattels of the Hospital gradually ceased to be used for the purposes of the trust and passed, by agreement, into the occupation of the Irish administration. Under Sections 2 and 3 of the Bill the legal title to all this property passes to the Minister for Finance. Works to repair and preserve the fabric of the Hospital building have been in progress for some years. When these works are completed it is intended that the Hospital building will form part of the National Museum. As State property it will, of course, be subject to the legislation and procedure applicable to State lands and buildings. The chattels transferred with the Hospital comprise old furniture, books and pictures. Under Section 3 of the Bill these chattels become State property and the Minister will have the same powers to use and dispose of them as he has in relation to other State property of this kind.

Section 4 of the Bill empowers the High Court to dispose of the trust funds described in the Schedule to the Bill. Except for the small amount described in Part II of the Schedule, these funds are in the custody of the Court, and, under Section 4 (a) of the Bill, the High Court is empowered to order certain payments to the Royal Hospital, Chelsea. The amounts payable have been calculated in agreement with the British authorities, and represent what would have been paid to the Hospital, out of the income of the funds, for the support of the pensioners surviving after 1922 if the trust had been functioning normally. The payments comprise, first, a lump sum of £2,440 7s. 4d. in respect of interest received on the trust funds; secondly, the proceeds of the sale of a holding of £1,096 7s. 5d. in 3½ per cent. Exchequer Bonds representing interest on the trust funds which was re-invested, and thirdly, the interest received on the reinvestment up to the date on which the Exchequer Bonds are sold, which will, it is estimated, amount to approximately £1,400.

The last of the Kilmainham pensioners died on the 17th September, 1952, and no payment out of any income of the funds arising after that date falls to be made. The interest accumulated since that date, together with the capital of the trust funds, is available for the purposes of a new trust which the High Court, under Section 4 (b) of the Bill, is empowered to settle for the benefit of serving or retired members of Defence Forces. Section 5 of the Bill constitutes the Attorney General the sole trustee of the funds as from 6th April, 1962, to act until the new scheme has been settled by the High Court. This is an interim measure to enable the Attorney General to deal with any matters in connection with the funds which may require action by a trustee pending the establishment of the new trust.

I recommend this Bill to the House for its approval.

Professor Hayes

I am altogether in favour of this Bill and it seems to be a reasonable and equitable settlement of a problem that at one time seemed a little difficult. I have an interest in the matter from two angles. When the Treaty had been made in 1921, in 1922 British Government property passed to the Provisional Government and subsequently to the Government of Saorstát Éireann but, as the Minister has explained, this particular building was not the property of the British Government and, therefore, did not pass and the conditions of the Trust were impossible to carry out in the new circumstances.

My first interest in the matter is that in 1923 a committee was appointed to go into the question of accommodation for the two Houses of the Oireachtas. One of the places considered by that committee and subsequently by a joint committee of which I was chairman was the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham. It may be of interest to Senators to know that one of the proposals was that the Seanad should be put into the chapel in the Royal Hospital. It might have been appropriate to the sober and calm debates to which we are used.

The committee reported finally saying that there were only three sites possible for the Oireachtas. One was Leinster House, the other was the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, and the other was the Castle. We have stayed in Leinster House, which is not a particularly suitable place, but it is certainly more suitable than either the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, or the Castle. The objection to the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, was the position and also the fact that the building itself was difficult to make suitable for a parliamentary assembly.

One of the advantages pointed out for it is an advantage now in the new use the Minister proposes to put the building to. In the new use I have also an interest. He is going to give the building, he says, to the National Museum, which sorely needs more accommodation but, on a previous occasion here, I urged that the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham — when I was growing up we called it the old men's house — should be used as a folk museum. It has several advantages. One is the building itself, its antiquity and the possibility of repairing it as a piece that could be a show piece, the amount of land that is in it and, in addition, the fact that the State owns the land from the Royal Hospital down to the river. The intervening land is what used to be called Islandbridge Barracks, now Clancy Barracks.

I should like to urge upon the Minister, if I may on this Bill, that the utmost expedition should be used to enable the National Museum to get this building and the land attached for the purpose of starting a folk museum. This is the only country in Europe in which no steps have been taken to establish a folk museum. In 1958, the Northern Irish Parliament passed a Bill for a folk museum and they have acquired a site of 136 acres near Belfast which is one of the best sites in Europe for the purpose. Perhaps, I could not explain better what I mean by a folk museum than by quoting from one paragraph of the First Annual Report of the Board of Trustees of the Ulster Folk Museum —I know, of course, the word "Ulster" is not the correct word but that is what it is called:

As in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Wales or elsewhere, the Ulster Folk Museum is essentially a rescue operation in an age when much of the character and individuality of communities is being changed beyond recognition, or absorbed forever into widespread uniformity. Thus, the primary function of the Ulster Folk Museum will be to study, preserve and record Ulster folklife. This is a sizeable task, especially if folklife is defined as covering the whole human history of the community, irrespective of class or creed.

It should be said, Sir, that from the point of view of our community no other area in Europe is as rich in remains of the older life than this country was some time ago but a change has been taking place at an extraordinarily rapid rate in the past 40 years and in the past 20 years and again since the War. The thatched house, for example, the old kitchen, the old kitchen fires and fireplaces, the old byres, all kinds of material of the ordinary person, are being allowed to disappear. We are accustomed to boasting about various remains that are here and they are very beautiful and wonderful, the Book of Kells, the Cross of Cong, and so on, but there is as well as that remnants of very ancient folklife going back into a very ancient period and I do suggest to the Minister that he should use the greatest possible expedition in getting something done about that.

I should like to recall to him that some 25 years ago a few people asked for £100 a year to buy farm implements that were then going out of use and it was refused. One hundred pounds for the past 25 years would have given you an immense store of material that is not now purchasable because it is not available.

The start that has been made in the North of Ireland is a very, very good one and may I say just a few words about the suitability of the particular site? It is an ideal site for a folk museum. It is within the city and at the same time enjoys a certain measure of isolation to itself and gives an admirable setting and is convenient to a river. The building is fairly large and could be used for the purposes of a folk museum and in the grounds you could erect specimens of houses and you could have various articles such as furniture, boats, lamps and fishing gear. I do not want to labour this point, Sir. I realise that it is not exactly the right time to advert to it but, at the same time, this is an ending of this particular building. It is going to be devoted now to a purpose, an entirely praiseworthy purpose, and I congratulate the Minister upon his expressed decision to give this building and the grounds for a national museum. But, I would urge that things are disappearing with extraordinary rapidity and that one of the things in which we should take an interest and a pride and that we can take a genuine pride in without exaggeration, without any kind of jingoism, is the immense variety of our folklife.

Perhaps, people remember that during the War there was some kind of action taken for the selling of turf on the mountains here. A Donegal man gave evidence that he could know turf cut by his own sleán. I forget the precise number, but it was said that there were over 30 different instruments, sleáns, for the cutting of turf and that applies to a great many other things as well that are disappearing very rapidly. People are anxious that we should have a folk museum. There is an immense amount of material — folk museums are concerned with material remains — and there is an immense amount of information in the Irish Folklore Commission. We know that there is goodwill in Britain, Wales, Scandinavia and so on to give us all the help we need. The matter is extremely urgent and I should like to ask the Minister to see that every possible step is taken to have a folk museum as soon as possible, to collect material as soon as possible and to put a folk museum into the Royal Hospital.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Tá spéis ar leith agamsa sa moladh atá déanta agus sa chuspóir atá anois ullamh i gcomhair an fhoirgnimh seo amuigh. Táimíd le deich mbliain fichead ag lorg rud éigin mar seo a chur ar bun, á lorg ón Rialtas. Is maith an scéal go bhfuil na hiarratais dulta i bhfeidhm orthu anois, go bhfuil an gníomh le déanamh, go bhfuil ionad, láthair agus foirgneamh le fáil go luath.

Maidir leis an áit, sé an rud is fearr liomsa ná na garraithe agus an talamh atá timpeall uirthi mar is ann is féidir múnla den seanashaol a thógáil a bheidh le taispeáint agus le feiscint ag an bpobal go bhfuil, nó go mbeidh, spéis acu sna daoine a tháinig romhainn.

Nílim ró-ghliondarach ar fad fén fhoirgneamh atá ann. Ba dheacair déanamh an tseanashaoil a chur air, ach déanfaidh sé áit stóir, áit do na nithe a bhain leis an seanashaol a choimeád. Sé b'áil liomsa ná go dtógfái seanbhaile, múnla sheanbhaile, agus na nithe ar fad a bhain le seanbhaile le cianta a bheith le feiscint ag an bpobal ar son eolais ar a stair féin, ar na daoine a tháinig rómpa agus mar ábhar maoidhimh agus mórtais ag dream óg na hÉireann mar ní bheidh samhail an tseanashaoil nó seanbhaile nó seantithe le fáil go luath in aon áit eile in Éirinn ach san iarsmalann.

Is maith liom go bhfuil sé tagaithe i gceist sa deireadh go mbeidh áit ann, tigh ann, ionad ann, do na nithe a bhain le seanbhaile agus go mbeidh siad le feiscint ann. Molaim an Rialtas. Tar éis fiche iarratas do chur orthu tá an rud á chur i bhfeidhm. Beimíd an-bhuíoch sa gCumann le Béaloideas agus cinnte sa gCoimisiún Béaloideasa go bhfuil an rud seo á chur chun críche sa deireadh.

Professor Stanford

Many citizens of Dublin and of the country as a whole will be very pleased when this Bill passes. Many of us believe that the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham is one of the finest architectural pieces. Indeed, it is hardly an exaggeration to say that it the nearest equivalent to Versailles in the neighbourhood of Dublin. It is certain that the Bill will give satisfaction, and I think it should give satisfaction to the Seanad, too, because on several occasions Senator Hayes and others have advocated the rehabilitation and good use of this building.

I should like very strongly, indeed, to support what Senator Hayes suggested about making a folk museum there. It would be a most desirable addition to our cultural life and to our educational life. We all agree with Senator Hayes when he tells us that the folk life of this country is among the richest in Europe and, perhaps, in the world and it is unhappily, as he says, dying very fast. I do hope the Minister will do all he can to implement what Senator Hayes suggested.

One other thing should be mentioned: it has been mentioned before in the House. The natural history department of the National Museum is very sadly underhoused. It has completely inadequate accommodation at the moment. I hope it is the intention of the Government to give it sufficient accommodation for its purposes. This part of the National Museum includes such an extremely important subject as geology.

If we have not a well equipped geological section in the National Museum, mineral research and other productive elements in the country will fall behind. I hope the Minister will see that the natural history section gets full accommodation.

I have one question. Senator Hayes referred to the chapel. I should like to be quite clear about what is going to happen to it. I believe it is a fine building. Has any decision been made yet about it? It is something to be prized, I understand, architecturally as well as for the traditions associated with it.

Incidentally, I think I can add to Senator Hayes' list of possibilities for the House of Parliament in 1923. It was Deputy Alfred Byrne who told me, I think, that the Bank of Ireland was considered and also, oddly enough, the Masonic Hall in Molesworth Street. I have no knowledge of the interior of that hall. Indeed, I am not qualified to have knowledge of its interior, so I cannot say whether it would have been suitable or not. But it is a happy thought in some ways that it should have been considered.

I would urge the Minister in conclusion to do everything he can to form a folk museum in this magnificent building and on these splendid grounds. If anyone who has not been there goes there he will be surprised to see the really spacious fields and lands around that ancient hospital. I hope that in ten years' time we will be able to say that a good start has been made in introducing this desirable addition to the national life.

Professor Hayes

The Bank of Ireland was not considered by the committee but it was constantly advocated by Senator W.B. Yeats at that particular time.

Mr. McGuire

I also welcome this Bill for three reasons — two have been mentioned already: first, the importance of this building architecturally; secondly, because of the fact — I gather though I did not hear very clearly— that members of the defence forces will benefit in some way from the funds; thirdly, of course, the question of the National Museum. I happen to be a member of the board of visitors of the National Museum and I do not think I am giving away secrets when I say that the whole question of the extension of the Museum and even of the National Gallery is under consideration at the moment and, I can say, very active consideration. Therefore, I am very glad to see this building being taken over and available for a folk museum. Perhaps, it may be there and that would be a very good idea. Not only is it important in that we can have a folk museum there but other collections could be easily housed there such as the eighteenth century coaches formerly in our museum here in Kildare Street. There is a very important and interesting collection of coaches and other vehicles which have not been accessible to the public for well over 30 years. Furthermore, there is in the Museum in Kildare Street a large number of collections which never see the light of day because of lack of space. It is very sad really to feel that those collections are there and that nobody sees them. However, the day is coming and this is the first sign of the light of dawn, when our fine collections will be brought out and put on show.

While I am on that point — it is not really relevant at the moment — I hope, now that we have started, the whole question of our museums will be carried out to a final conclusion, including proper provision for staff and provision not only for housing our collections but adding to them as they should be added to. They should be kept living things and we should be able to keep our collections up to date and fully representative.

I should like to ask the Minister one or two questions which arise out of his statement. He mentioned the chattels which include furniture and pictures. Perhaps he would tell us what the furniture consists of and how many pictures there are, what they are and what is their quality. As we all know, good pictures and good furniture are very important items nowadays and an acquisition of good furniture and pictures from this source would be very welcome. I saw a description of some of the furniture, but as we all know, descriptions in inventories and catalogues of auctioneers are not always accurate. I gather there is some Chippendale furniture. If it is genuine, it will be very important and very valuable. There are also pictures there.

Another point which I should like to mention is the value to the tourist trade of the opening of such a building, both for its own sake, for its architectural beauty and what it contains. What it contains is of very great importance because tourists are really more interested in seeing buildings and collections of this nature than seeing things like the Shannon Scheme and so on. Therefore I welcome this Bill on the grounds I have stated.

Mr. Ross

I should like to welcome this Bill for various reasons: first of all, because it clarifies the legal position of one of our national heritages. It takes from trustees and vests in the State, and at last we have in the State, and in our own possession, this great building. I should like to welcome the Bill, too, for another reason, that is, the manner and the spirit in which the Bill is cast and the spirit in which clearly the negotiations have gone on between our Government and the British Government and with the Royal Hospital in Chelsea. I see from Section 3 (2) of the Bill that it is provided that the Minister may in his absolute discretion dispose of all the chattels either by sale for the benefit of the Exchequer or by gift exchange or loan and I see from the Dáil reports, the Minister had in mind to make certain gifts to the Royal Hospital in Chelsea. That seems to me to be a very good and a very enlightened task the Minister has taken on. I should like him to tell us a little more, as Senator McGuire asked him, about the furniture and the pictures in the hospital: how many there are and what it is intended to do with them and which ones he intends to give to Chelsea or where else he intends disposing of them. I would hope that we would be able to keep some of them at least in the hospital in some room that might perhaps be set aside, possibly as part of the folk museum, to commemorate the original purpose of the hospital.

Like Senator Hayes and Senator McGuire, I strongly support the proposal for a national folk museum. I have seen one or two of the folk museums in Scandinavia. They are very fine. They show the background and the traditions of the Scandinavian countries and we certainly are lacking in having no folk museum. It would be a splendid thing if we got a folk museum of this kind of our own which will not only draw people's attention to our past history and our past way of living, but also draw their attention to this building which has been so completely neglected for so many years.

It seems to me that the Bill is a Bill of great enlightenment and of great tolerance. I speak quite unashamedly as a member of the Anglo-Irish background. To me, it seems an act of great enlightenment that this hospital which represents part of our past should now be resurrected, so that all can see it as part of our heritage. It is particularly pleasing to me that this should be so at a time when Kilmainham Jail is being rebuilt and which reflects a part of our national history and a part of our background which is sad and grim. The Government are to be congratulated on resurrecting these two buildings as part of two different threads of our national background. For these reasons, I welcome the Bill.

Dr. Ryan

I am very grateful for some of the suggestions which have been made with regard to the use of this building. As I said, they have decided they wanted it as a folk museum and I think that may be taken as settled. It appears to be suitable for that purpose, as some Senator mentioned, because it is readily accessible from the city and at the same time, there is a fair amount of space, which is necessary for a folk museum.

The centre of the building has been undergoing repair for some time. I should have mentioned that the whole building suffered very severely from dry rot and had to be repaired in order to get rid of this very serious condition. The centre of the building, which includes the chapel, is expected to be finished by the end of this year. I expect that the Museum will take it over as soon as possible after that and begin to move in at least part of their exhibits for the folk museum. I believe they are already using part of Kilmainham as a store for some of their surplus exhibits which they have no room to show in Kildare Street.

The remaining three wings will take some years to repair. I do not know whether it will be possible to do them wing by wing and hand them over, or whether it will be necessary to wait until the whole job is done. I shall be anxious to co-operate with the Museum in every way. The first estimate for doing all this job was about £250,000, but it will be more than that, I am afraid, before the whole thing is finished. But those who know the building know that it is very valuable, and even though we have to spend what appears to be a huge amount of money, it will be well spent and it will be a building we can be proud of and which will be very useful for the purpose.

Senator Stanford spoke about the natural history part of the Museum. There was some discussion about this but I am not sure what conclusions, if any, were reached. I think a solution has not been found for that yet.

The chapel, of course, is a very fine building and appears to have great architectural merit. It will be part of the Museum and will therefore be open to the public.

The Defence Forces will benefit by the Bill. If Senator McGuire, who raised that point, will look at paragraph (b) of Section 4, he will see that the court are asked to approve a scheme which will be for the benefit of all or any classes or class of members of former members of the Defence Forces. The amount, of course, is not very big but it will be useful for some purpose or other.

The chattels consist of the ordinary furniture, which is Board of Works type — useful, but I think not including any antiques — so we cannot look for any great value there. The pictures are of historical value but again I am told that, from the artistic point of view, they are not considered to be anything extraordinary. The first is a portrait of Charles II and the next is of King William. I need not go any further to stress their historical importance, whatever about their artistic merit. We end with a pensioner of 106 years of age. There was some discussion between Chelsea and our own people here. They seemed to have some interest in some of these pictures. I should be sorry to see historical pictures going, but there are several of Governors and army officers and we could spare some of them, if Chelsea express great interest in them. I do not know whether they are interested enough to come over and take them or not.

I can say generally that the Board of Works will help the Museum as far as possible to get moving in the place.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill considered in Committee.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Professor Hayes

Is it certain that the Minister has power to give away property?

Dr. Ryan

I have asked that, and it seems he has power to give away property, but he must mention the fact in the Appropriation Account, so that everyone will know about it.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 4 to 6 inclusive agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.