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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 1963

Vol. 57 No. 4

National Building Agency Limited Bill, 1963 (Certified Money Bill) —Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The National Building Agency Limited is a private company incorporated under the Companies Acts. It has a nominal capital of £100. The primary object in its establishment was to facilitate the provision of houses required in connection with industrial expansion where the need for such housing could not be met appropriately by local authorities or is not otherwise met by private enterprise. It was intended that the Agency should also participate in the provision of housing for State personnel, including Gardaí, whose duties involve a transfer to different parts of the country.

Since its establishment the Agency has been financing the construction of houses for industrial personnel by means of temporary advances obtained from the Industrial Credit Company. Money required for houses for the Garda Síochána is recouped from the Vote for Public Works and Buildings, the day to day needs being met by temporary bank overdraft accommodation.

When speaking in the Seanad on the 8th March, 1961 on the motion that the company be scheduled to the State Guarantees Act 1954, I said that when the extent of the operations of the Agency could be foreseen more clearly consideration would be given to making adequate long term arrangements for the financing of its operations. The operations of the Agency are now such that appropriate long term arrangements for financing them are warranted. The Bill now before the House provides for direct finance from the Exchequer.

The Bill follows the general lines of legislation relating to the financing of similar semi-State bodies. No new principle is introduced.

There is provision for the taking up of shares by the Minister for Finance within a limit of £100,000. This provision is not, however, intended to be the main source of finance. It will, however, give flexibility in the financing of the Agency if, for example, the Agency should find it appropriate to invest in or sponsor another company engaged in housing or ancillary activities.

Section 6 makes provision for repayable advances by the Minister for Finance to the Agency and will be the principal power to be availed of for the purposes of financing the industrial housing programme.

Section 7 provides for power for the guaranteeing by the Minister for Local Government with the consent of the Minister for Finance of borrowing by the Agency. It is hoped that this section will be availed of from time to time to provide funds from the Agency as an alternative to or in addition to Section 6.

There is an overall limit of £2 million in the amount provided by Sections 6 and 7. Fresh legislation to extend this limit will be necessary if this figure is not sufficient.

Senators will I am sure be interested in the progress of the Agency to date.

On the industrial side the Agency has undertaken to provide or assist in the provision of some 285 houses for industrial workers at various centres scattered throughout about 20 counties. The persons for whom houses are being provided include skilled technical and executive personnel whose services are essential for the establishment and development of the industries and for whom houses are not otherwise available locally. The total commitment involved to date is about £686,000. Of the 285 houses, 82 have been completed or substantially completed, while construction work is in progress or contracts have been allocated in respect of a further 66 houses.

The Agency is in a position to give a comprehensive service to industrialists anxious to provide housing accommodation for their workers. The comprehensive housing service entails a full technical and administrative service on the part of the Agency. Under this service, the Agency makes arrangements to select and purchase a suitable site, prepares site layout plans and specifications, designs the houses, invites tenders and recommends the appointment of a building contractor. During the course of the building contract the Agency's technical staff controls the building operations by supervising the work in progress. In addition, similar loan facilities are extended in respect of the project as obtain under the partial housing service. Recently the tendency has been for industrialists to avail of the full comprehensive service. The industrialists who have availed of this service include both established firms wishing to expand and new firms setting up in business. The service is found to be attractive to the industrialists as under it they are relieved of the major problems and difficulties involved in providing houses and are left free to concentrate on industrial development proper. The success of the Agency in this sphere suggests the possibility of its being able to assist in other housing operations in the future.

As regards Garda housing the Agency has on hands the provision of some 530 houses as part of the Garda Housing Programme. So far, sites are being or have been acquired for about 410 houses, tenders have been invited for the erection of 255 houses and contracts have been entered into for the erection of 219 of them. About 80 are completed or substantially completed. These houses are being provided in widely separated centres throughout the 26 Counties. In many centres only one or two houses are being provided.

In Templemore 23 houses are being provided on four different sites in connection with the new training depot.

I have recently had the opportunity of seeing some of the houses which are being built for the Gardaí. The schemes which I visited were widely dispersed and the works in progress were at the various stages of construction. I was very much impressed with the results achieved both from the point of view of economy and cost, and, what is equally important, high standards of construction and design. It was evident to me that the Agency had given much consideration to these important aspects.

I think that these remarks will give a general picture of the progress and activities of the Agency up to the present. I feel that Senators will agree that the new arrangements proposed in this Bill are justified.

As we all know there is a dearth and shortage of houses in the State at the present time. Insofar as this measure will increase the number of houses to be built and made available in any part of the State, I welcome this Bill. We are glad to see that such progress as the Minister has pointed out here has been made with regard to houses for the Garda Síochána. The provision of those houses will no doubt relieve the local authorities in the different counties of their obligations to provide houses for those people and will leave extra houses available for perhaps more deserving people.

As I think we are all aware, the National Building Agency was established with the primary object of facilitating the provision of houses in connection with industrial expansion, where the need could not appropriately be met by local authorities, or is not otherwise met by private enterprise. We are glad to see that it is expanding. I do hope that as regards this new Agency and this new Board more information will be given to Deputies and Senators by the Minister concerned with this new State Board, and that more information will be given to members of the Oireachtas than is being given about State Boards at the present time. I hope that in the future the Minister, or should I say perhaps his successor, whoever he may be, will not tell Deputies, when they ask questions, that he has no responsibility in the matter, or that he will not take the line which the Minister for Transport and Power takes when questions are put to him in regard to the operations of the ESB or CIE. I believe that all State companies should be answerable to Parliament. I believe an undesirable state of affairs has grown up in this country whereby the elected representatives of the people are refused vital information when they seek it in the Houses of the Oireachtas; all our State companies should be answerable to Parliament. We want to ensure that in this Board, and in any board that is set up by this State, everything is done by the board and that the normal procedures are followed. For example, with this Board all contracts will be advertised for public tender and there will be no question of patronage in the allocation of contracts. We know that mention was made in the Dáil and other places about what happened in Radio Éireann a few years ago. Only a certain number of tenders were invited for that work which was never publicly advertised—and I state never publicly advertised. We certainly do not want this undesirable procedure to happen under the National Building Agency. The worst feature of that whole unsavoury procedure was that when the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was questioned——

Is Senator L'Estrange allowed to roam over the whole field of procedure in this Bill?

I am saying I hope these State companies will give information when they are asked for it and that everything will be done above board, that they will advertise contracts, that there will be no political patronage, and I believe that when questions are asked as they were asked of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in regard to another board——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator will have to relate his exhortations to the National Agency Bill; what other Ministers have done is not relevant.

I hope the Minister will be responsible for the actions of the local authorities and if he is questioned in the Dáil he will give the information required. If anything goes wrong in the future I hope he will not say it is a matter for the board and that as Minister for Local Government he is not prepared to answer the questions, but that he will give all the available information to the members of the Oireachtas. We are against political patronage. We know that there is an alarming amount of political patronage in State and semi-State bodies throughout the country at the present time. Those who fought and died in 1916 fought for equal rights and opportunities for all our people and I do hope that this Board will see to it that everybody gets an equal opportunity and equal rights as regards contracts. I claim that what is happening with many people when they become directors of State and semi-State bodies is deplorable.

I agree with the principle that civil servants are members of the board of directors, but I loathe what has been done, or what they have had to do, and I should like to know from the Minister that these civil servants are free to use their discretion in the selection of people to work for this Agency. If they are free, for example, to use their discretion in the selection of solicitors—and I claim they should be —is it not strange that they have selected Fianna Fáil Party hacks in every county? I believe civil servants of the type we have in Ireland would not have stooped to that if they did not get direction from somebody or from somewhere. It is a deplorable state of affairs.

Is it right to refer to professional gentlemen around the country as Party hacks? It is most undesirable that that sort of language should be tolerated in the Seanad.

Only Fine Gael did that.

We are against political patronage. If you were true to the principles of 1916 you would not stand for it.

You do not know anything about it.

I know only too well.

In regard to the question of information about the activities of this company, all reasonable information will be given by me. I cannot talk for my successor: the Senator seems to feel there may be one. However, in so far as I am concerned, as Minister for Local Government, all reasonable information will be available to the members of the Oireachtas at any reasonable time and, naturally, when asked for in any reasonable manner.

In so far as the suggestion that patronage might be allowed to creep into the giving of contracts is concerned, experience to date on costings over the whole field of the operations of the Building Agency would suggest that they are getting better prices— that is, more economic prices — for these house contracts than the local authorities are able to get from the same contractors in their counties. If this suggests patronage, I am afraid I cannot say I shall try to prevent it because one of the purposes of the Agency is to do the job speedily and economically. To date, at any rate, they have been doing just that.

The Agency have been getting jobs done with a greater speed than would the normal local authority which is subject to all these stipulations about publication, the time that must elapse before the closure date and all the examination that must be gone through before they can get down to work. It is, to a large degree, to obviate many of these drawn-out delays of which we are aware in our public authority building that we have seen fit to institute this Agency as a company so that it may have, in its dealings on behalf of industrialists and others who commission it to get building done for them, the same freedom as the commercial companies with whom it is dealing and for whom it is acting.

The usefulness of this Agency, I think, is fully accepted by all concerned even including the Senator who has just spoken. It is true that in their building operations, particularly widespread building operations for the members of the Garda, they are contributing in a very direct way to the housing of the people in those local authority areas where they are operating. Every house they erect probably relieves another house. Whether it is a local authority house or a private house does not materially alter the picture of another house provided and, therefore, another vacated. It follows then, that some person or persons or family may come to be housed as a result.

The programme for the Gardaí is going on at quite a good rate. In fact, I do not think anything other than this type of Agency, with the freedom of operation that it has, could have got done in the time the same work that the Agency has accomplished. As I have already indicated, in their very short time in existence, they have actually got around to dealing with sites for 410 of the 530 houses for the Gardaí which is the first stage of the operation on behalf of the Department of Justice. When you consider that very few groups of houses are contained in their operations and very few sites, therefore, are contained in that figure of 410, it will readily be understood that a great deal of work was necessary and that that work was done with the greatest possible expedition.

The greater part of that work, in the initial stage, was done by the legal people who have been abused here this evening by Senator L'Estrange. They have done that work well, competently and expeditiously. If, for their pains and their trouble in doing that job well, they are to be described as they were described here by Senator L'Estrange, I am afraid he will not get much support for that abuse in this House or outside it.

You indulged in it for years. You got promotion.

That brings me to the suggestion that this company and this Agency may follow the ways of other State boards and that there is, in the words of Senator L'Estrange, an alarming amount of patronage in the activities of those boards at present. If there is evidence of patronage, all I ask Senator L'Estrange is: whose patronage? If he has the evidence, I want to know from him just who is being patronised, who has been patronised—and who knows better than Senator L'Estrange and members of his Party just how patronage is dispensed when they have the power to do it? If he thinks over that and examines some of his suggestions about what we should avoid he will realise they come either from a guilty conscience or a full knowledge of how these things are and were manipulated by his Party when he had the opportunity.

I am old enough to know only what is going on at present.

If the cap does not fit, the Senator need not bother trying to fit it on. I feel it does.

You feel wrong.

I leave it to the Senator to think of it in those terms. The Bill before the House is, as Members are fully aware, quite simple and straightforward. Its terms have been examined and gone through in detail on previous occasions when dealing with the sponsoring of other similar organisations. There is little further I can add to what I have said except that the expectations that I expressed when I set up this Agency are being realised. I believe this Agency is doing not only good work at the moment but that there is great scope in it at the moment and that it will prove itself a very great asset to the nation and the national economy in the years that lie ahead.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.
The Seanad adjourned at 9.20 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 18th December, 1963.
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