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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jul 1964

Vol. 57 No. 18

Transport Bill, 1964: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The main purpose of this Bill is to provide for payment of annual subsidy to Coras Iompair Éireann, to empower the Minister for Finance to advance moneys to the Board for capital purposes, and to make further provision for payment of redundancy compensation to railway employees whose services are dispensed with, or whose conditions are worsened because of transfer, in certain specified circumstances. The Bill also provides for writing off advances totalling £1 million made to the Board by the Minister for Finance under section 13 of the Transport Act, 1963. Other matters dealt with in the Bill relate to entry to the clerical grades of CIE, the development of property by the Board, as well as some other matters of a minor nature.

Before dealing with the Bill itself and future transport policy, I propose to review briefly the results of CIE over the past five years, the reorganisation period envisaged in the Transport Act, 1958. As Senators are aware, the 1958 Act required the Board to break even by the 31st March, 1964, and provided for payment to the Board in the financial years 1959/60 to 1963/64, inclusive, of an annual grant of £1 million. This annual grant was increased to £1.175 million by the Great Northern Railway Act, 1958, which provided for the transfer to CIE as from 1st October, 1958, without capital liability, of the GNR undertaking within the State. The Act also wrote off liabilities of CIE totalling £16.6 million, representing a saving of interest of some £600,000 per annum.

To help CIE in their efforts to reduce losses during the reorganisation period, common carrier and other statutory obligations which had restricted their commercial adaptability were removed by the 1958 legislation and the Board was given complete commercial freedom in the fixing of rates and fares. The Board was also given full discretion in the termination of uneconomic rail services. Provision was also made in the 1958 legislation for recoupment by the Exchequer of the cost of redundancy compensation in respect of redundancy arising during the reorganisation period.

In the first two years of the Board's operation under the new charter granted to it by the Transport Act, 1958, hopes were high that the Board could become a viable undertaking within five years. By 1959/60 the Board's net loss had been reduced to £709,000 and in the following year it was down to £246,000, as compared with £1,950,000 in 1958/59. Unfortunately, however, this progress received a sharp set-back in 1961/62 when the Board's loss jumped to £1,696,000, due mainly to the impact of the eighth round increase in salaries and wages and associated improvements in working conditions, which represented a 20 per cent increase in the CIE wages and salaries bill which the Board was unable to recover except to a partial extent by increased rates and fares. In 1962/63 there was a gap of more than £1 million between the additional labour costs and the counteracting fares and rates increase and the Board's net loss increased still further to £1,760,000. The most recent estimate for 1963/64 shows a net loss of £1,606,000. This shows a very marked improvement over 1962-1963 when account is taken of the additional net cost to the Board in 1963/1964 of the ninth round increase in salaries and wages—estimated at £236,000 in the last three months of the year—and of the net cost of the May, 1963, bus strike which amounted to £342,000.

Over the five year period, the Board's losses totalled £6,017,000 as against the aggregate subsidy of £5,875,000 provided for in the Transport Act, 1958. The difference of £142,000 was met by borrowing from the Exchequer and is part of the £1 million being written off in this Bill. The Board have not succeeded despite far reaching reorganisation and modernisation in achieving the target of breaking even by 31st March, 1964, and for reasons I will deal with later the target can now be seen to be unrealisable in Irish conditions. Over the five years, the Board's expenditure on additions to capital assets, excluding hotels, was £5.2 million. Interest on capital and sinking fund are, of course, included in the losses of the Board.

The preponderating element in the results over the five years is, of course, the railway. The operating deficit on the railway which amounted to £1,247,000 in 1958/59 fell to £854,000 in 1959/60 and to £477,000 in 1960/61, but rose again to £1,362,000 in 1962/63 and fell to an estimated £905,000 in 1963/64. Total operating deficit on the railway over the five years was £5,191,000 as compared with a total CIE loss of £6,017,000, but the total loss included financial charges of over £4 million, of which no element is included in the deficit on railway working.

The Road Passenger Department, of which Dublin City Services contribute 64 per cent of the revenue, continues to be profitable. The working surplus, before charging sinking fund for capital redemption and interest on capital, amounted to about £273,000 in 1963/64 as compared with £480,000 in 1962/63, with £511,000 in the preceding year and £764,000 in 1960/61 and surpluses of a similar order in preceding years. The steep decline in 1963/64 was due to the May, 1963, bus strike, the net cost of which, as I have already indicated, was £342,000, but with the continued growth of private transport it is possible that road passenger services may not in future be as profitable as in the past. Road freight transport has shown a marginal profit over the past few years but the trend has been downward and this continued in 1963/64. The working surplus on hotels and catering has increased considerably since 1958/59. In 1963/64 the working surplus, before charging sinking fund or interest on capital, amounted to about £135,000 compared with £44,000 in 1958/59. In December, 1961, a subsidiary company, Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teo., was formed to operate the Board's hotels and catering service. In May, 1960, the operation of CIE barges on the Grand Canal was discontinued and the working loss on canals fell from £79,000 in 1959/60 to £51,000 in 1960/61 as a result. In 1963/64 the working loss was about £42,000. Vessels, docks, etc., continue to show losses which amounted in 1963/64 to an estimated £34,000.

It will be clear from the foregoing that the losses of CIE are accounted for almost entirely by the losses on the railways. The railway system continues to be the main problem of public transport with which the Government have to deal.

The Beddy Committee envisaged the reduction of the CIE railway system to a main line one consisting of approximately 850 miles, to which must be added 63 miles of the former GNR Dublin-Belfast line, but the Transport Act, 1958, left full discretion to the Board in the matter of the termination of uneconomic rail services and in the provision of substitute services, if any. The new Board adopted the policy of substituting road services for any rail services closed down. Between 1st October, 1958, and 31st March, 1964, the Board closed 621 route miles of railway line, which together with other reductions and alterations reduced the railway system to about 1,460 route miles. A number of lines have also been closed by CIE to passenger traffic and are now used for freight only or for freight and excursions. In addition, 218 stations and halts were closed down by the Board during the reorganisation period compared with the closure of some 317 stations and halts envisaged by the Beddy Committee. A number of other stations have been partially closed.

Before closing a branch line, CIE carry out a detailed analysis of the cost of operation and revenue of rail services on the branch and of substituting road services, and where there is no prospect of economic operation of the branch and where a "betterment" in net receipts would accrue by substituting road for rail transport, it is decided to close the branch.

It is significant that the lines closed, even though they represented 29 per cent of the whole railway system, carried no more than five per cent of the total railway traffic and that the revenue derived from the closed lines and stations had not amounted to more than six per cent of total railway revenue. CIE have informed me that only 35 additional buses and 52 lorries, together with 57 extra lorries during peak periods, were required to provide adequate and satisfactory substitute services. The 57 extra lorries required for peak periods are supplied as far as possible from the general CIE fleet and where a sufficient number is not available the gap is bridged by hired hauliers. The financial betterment to CIE from these closures amounted to about £700,000 per annum. If these lines and stations were still in operation the losses would be heavier by at least £700,000 and this loss would grow with increasing costs.

The Beddy Committee referred to the low CIE utilisation of rail passenger and rail freight capacity in comparison with other Western European countries and felt that it was a matter of urgent necessity to improve rail utilisation. Between 1958/59 and 1962/63 the number of rail cars and carriages decreased by 27 per cent and the number of seats by 26 per cent. The tonnage capacity of rail freight vehicles declined by 16 per cent during the same period. As the volume of passenger and freight traffic has been maintained, these reductions represent a significant improvement in the utilisation of rolling stock though because of our conditions it is still below the European average. Over the same period the number of diesel locomotives increased from 139 to 210 while steam locomotives of which there were 347 in use in 1957/58, have been eliminated from normal working. All railway services are now operated by deisel power.

As the reorganisation of the railway was the main aim of the 1958 Act and as the losses of CIE are attributable to the railway, a closer look at railway working is worthwhile. The passenger/ mileage figure, which is the true index of traffic, has despite the branch line closures, shown a slight increase from 326 million in 1958/59 to 331 million in 1963/64. Rail passenger traffic would probably have shown a decline but for the vigorous development of excursion traffic by CIE, including the introduction of day trips at single fares, the expansion of organised excursions and educational trips and mystery tours.

The tonnage of rail freight, excluding livestock, has also been well maintained. Ton mileage for freight of 187 million in 1958/59 has increased to 208 million in 1963/64, or by 11 per cent. There has been a steep decline in the numbers of livestock carried by rail over the years. The number carried in 1963/64 by rail was 379,000 compared with 536,000 in 1958/59. Carryings of livestock by CIE road services over the same period, however, have increased from 214,000 in 1958/59 to 320,000 in 1963/64, an increase of 50 per cent.

Apart from the saving of £700,000 per annum from terminating uneconomic rail services, the Board has shown considerable commercial drive, with results on passenger and freight traffic already noted. The management structure has been overhauled and decentralised and there has been a notable increase in efficiency and consequently in the public image of CIE. There have been many improvements in service such as better rolling stock, more comfortable buses, and improved passenger facilities at stations which are themselves now brighter and cleaner than ever before. The mechanisation of freight traffic has speeded up delivery and the Board claims that 85 per cent of freight traffic is now delivered within 24 hours. It has been estimated that were it not for the reorganisation carried out by the Board, including the closing of uneconomic lines, further dieselisation since 1958 and improvements in productivity, the Board's total loss would now be over £3 million per annum.

The experience over the five years has demonstrated in a practical way that the hopes of breaking even are un-realisable. The prospects have, however, been examined in a detailed scientific way in an exhaustive study made by CIE. The objectives of the study, now known as Pacemaker, included a review of the salient features of CIE, its place in the national market for transport, its activities, finances, commercial policies, engineering services and industrial relations. The two more important parts of the Pacemaker report are devoted to an analysis of the profitability of the various sections of CIE and an examination of possible alternative systems of providing public transport. Copies of the report were placed in the Library of the Houses of the Oireachtas on 9th March, 1964, and at the same time CIE undertook to make copies of the report available to the Trade Unions and, on request, to other interested parties.

I propose to give some details from the Pacemaker report for the benefit of Senators who may not have had an opportunity of reading it. I should perhaps explain that the report was prepared by the management for the Board of CIE and does not contain and was not intended to contain any recommendations for future policy.

Dealing with the railway, the report indicates that the six largest stations account for more than half the revenue and 110 stations account for 14 per cent of the revenue. A total of 410 miles of railway is wholly profitable, 300 miles are marginally profitable and the balance of 750 miles is unprofitable. In other words about half of the railway mileage is wholly unprofitable and the remainder is approximately breaking even. It cannot be assumed from this that the closure of 750 miles of unprofitable track would bring about a break-even situation. While the closure of branch lines does not generally mean loss of traffic and, therefore, shows net betterment, the closure of certain unprofitable secondary lines could, depending on the extent to which they act as feeders to the main system, have a serious effect on the remainder of the system. The discontinuance of services on all of this 750 miles would in fact reduce the railway to an unworkable unit. Nevertheless further investigation may show that it would be practicable and desirable to close further branch lines. The findings in the Pacemaker study bear out fully that the closure by CIE, during the five year reorganisation period, of 621 miles of railway line was fully justified. A further important fact revealed is that ten major traffics account for 70 per cent of rail freight tonnage and 50 per cent of rail freight revenue and are accounted for by as few as twenty firms, which means that rail freight transport is in an extremely vulnerable position.

The Dublin city bus services have overall profitability and CIE estimate that they contributed a cross-subsidy of £380,000 to the remainder of the undertaking in the year 1961/62, which represented an average cross-subsidy per passenger of 0.37 pence or 8.2 per cent of the average fare paid.

Dealing with the bus services, the report pointed out that of the total of 79 Dublin city bus services operated by the Board, 35 services operate at a loss; 8 are marginally profitable while 36 services show a profit. As few as 21 services account for about 80 per cent of the profits. There is, therefore, substantial cross-averaging within the Dublin city services. Of the 24 provincial city bus services operated, 13 are operated at a loss and 5 are marginally profitable. The profitable services are, however, sufficiently viable to enable the provincial city services as a whole to be regarded as breaking even but no more.

234 provincial road passenger services are operated by the Board and, of these, 73 services are wholly profitable, 9 are marginally profitable and the remaining 152 services are unprofitable. The provincial road passenger services as a whole are only marginally profitable in that they contribute only 1 per cent to overheads and other unallocated costs against a required 4 per cent to break even.

There are 141 road freight depots and of these almost three-quarters give rise to only 10 per cent of the total road freight revenue. The seven largest depots account for 51 per cent of the revenue. Road freight services combined — which comprise railhead, scheduled, livestock, and other services—are not fully profitable in that they contribute 11 per cent towards overheads and other unallocated costs against a required 26 per cent to break even.

As I have already mentioned, various alternative systems of providing public transport are examined in the report ranging from the present system through a number of different combinations of rail and road to an all-road system. The report shows the operating costs for each system and the additional capital requirements for a changeover to another system. The conclusions to be drawn are in effect that no public transport system incorporating a railway can pay its way; that there is no real alternative to the present system of public transport other than a planned complete changeover to road transport; but that the capital cost of the changeover would be such as to rule it out as a practical proposition.

In considering the future legislative provisions for CIE after the expiry of the relevant provisions of the Transport Act, 1958, the Government had in the first place to consider the position of the railway. The experience over the five year reorganisation period and the Pacemaker Study disposed finally of the hope that either the railway or the undertaking as a whole would be put on a self-supporting basis. Moreover the findings of the Pacemaker Study showed that while a complete changeover to road transport could possibly yield a public transport system which could carry on without operating losses the enormous capital required and the very heavy staff redundancy would be such as to outweigh the advantages. The Government had also to consider the value of the railway system to the country. It represents a vast national investment and offers advantages many of which could not be provided by road transport. This is particularly the case for tourist traffic and for peak traffics of various kinds. The Government have decided, therefore, after very full and careful consideration, to preserve the railway system subject to such further concentration and reorganisation as may prove practicable and desirable, and to provide a fixed annual subsidy with the aid of which the Board should be expected to break even.

I should perhaps digress for a moment to analyse the fundamental reason why a railway system cannot be operated profitably in our circumstances. Of course it is a fact that railways in most other countries also show losses of varying amounts but there are special difficulties for a railway in Ireland. The main item of expenditure on a railway is the high cost of providing and maintaining fixed capital overheads. The cost of maintaining the railway line, stations, signal equipment, rolling stock etc. is very largely fixed and is influenced very little by the volume of traffic.

In Ireland we have a relatively sparse population and the main centres of population and industry are near the coast, particularly the east coast, and the country does not, therefore, yield the density of traffic in either passengers or freight which could provide a reasonably high level of utilisation of the equipment and staff. Our present mileage of railway line represents 51 miles per 100,000 population, as compared with an average in 1962 of 39 miles for twelve representative European countries. A further factor is that, principally because of the double handling involved, the railway is most effective and most economic for longer distances. We have no railway journey in this country which could be described as long by any international standards.

Further handicaps are the absence of large homogeneous traffics such as coal or ore, which are particularly suited to railways, and of the long distance transit traffic which is a feature of much continental railway operation. The number of miles of railway line in this country in 1962/63 per £1 million of gross national product was 1.8 miles, compared with 0.65 miles in the United Kingdom, 0.57 miles in the Netherlands and 1.13 miles in Italy, a country in which there are a great number of poor people. The mileage of railway line in this country in relation to the country's income is, therefore, still large.

The fixed subsidy of £2 million per annum, which will be subject to alteration in the light of circumstances at the end of five years, has been calculated after careful examination of estimates supplied by CIE. It represents what the Government considers to be a realistic estimate of the minimum subsidy with which CIE can get by, on the basis of continued effective management, increased efficiency and productivity and careful husbanding of resources. When this Bill becomes law, I shall direct the Board to make a further tremendous sustained effort to secure and retain traffic and to reduce costs, in the hope that the Bill's subsidy provisions be over-adequate. The Board accepts that the subsidy is not a permitted loss but an estimated covering of a deficit.

Between 1949/50 and 1958/59, £11 million was paid to CIE and the GNR in the form of subventions to cover operating losses. In addition, amounts totalling £5.6 million were paid in the same period to cover interest on stocks, and this gives an average of £1.66 million a year paid to the railways over the period. This figure of £1.66 million compares with the subsidy of £2 million a year now proposed. Taking into account the fall in money values over the period, the increases in wage rates and in the cost of replacing physical assets resulting in higher depreciation charges, together with the increasing competition from private transport, the proposed subsidy of £2 million for each of the next five years is not excessive in relation to what has been paid before.

In general, a subsidy to cover the difference between current operating expenditure and receipts is undesirable as it tends to encourage inefficiency. Such a subsidy is very different from the various types of capital grants given to industry by the State and is also quite different from the type of subsidy required in connection with guaranteed agricultural prices. The justification for the subsidy for CIE lies in the necessity to preserve the arterial railway system, which will continue to be essential to this country in the foreseeable future, not only to take peak traffics but to provide transport services for tourists and to undertake speedy express services for passengers and for freight, for which the road conditions in this country are not suitable. Moreover, as I have already stated, any advantages which might accrue from a complete changeover to road transport would be outweighed by the enormous capital cost and the large scale redundancy which would be involved.

The successive Governments examining the affairs of the public transport service have always tried to frame legislation based on the hope that the entire system might pay its way even if its capital was largely unremunerated. The second reading speeches attending all the CIE legislation clearly indicate this. Until Pacemaker was published, CIE in common with a great many other railways, had not devised a system of cost computation which would truly present an objective picture of railway and road transport economics and the CIE report together with some other similar reports are in advance and pioneering in a relatively new field. The arrangements in this Bill ensure that there will be no running down of the main arterial system but on the contrary ensure the maintenance and improvement of the system. The decision has been made that a railway is essential in this country even at a heavy cost to the taxpayer. No private operator would take on the obligation—that is certain.

It is for the management of CIE, the staff and the public to justify this subsidy and to ensure that there is no catastrophic fall in revenue in the next decade or thereafter which would demand a further examination of the position. The subsidy, which amounts to about 10 per cent of last year's total revenue from all sources and almost 25 per cent of rail revenue alone, is high by European standards. Taking 15 European railways, I find that in 1961, the latest year for which figures are available, the average ratio of income to expenditure was 1 to 1.13, the minimum ratio being 1 to 0.93 and the maximum ratio being 1 to 1.38. In the case of CIE the corresponding ratio for the railway alone in the year 1962/63 was 1 to 1.24.

If the hopes of every Minister in charge of CIE, whenever a new Bill was provided, that the system would pay have been dashed in the past it is to be sincerely hoped that this large subsidy will be sufficient and that the subsidy payable after 1969 will be proportionally less, if at all possible, as the country grows in prosperity.

The members of the House are entitled to ask what will happen if there is a very marked deterioration in the position. My answer is that the Government have made certain assumptions as with all future planning. These are that:

(1) It is hoped that the Board, supported by the entire staff, will induce more efficiency and retain existing traffics.

(2) It is hoped that the railway will gain traffic from the growth in the general economy.

(3) There is recognition of the fact that the huge staff of CIE will and should receive increases of remuneration applicable to the whole economy and that future increases as a result of the advice of the National Industrial Economic Council will be based on national productivity growth on a basis clearly set forth by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance.

(4) No doubt the staff and management will recognise the special characteristics of the railway finances, the dependence on 20 important customers and on courteous punctual service.

(5) It is to be hoped that the staff while securing better remuneration as the nation advances will recognise the need for examining any changes in work procedures whose effect would be to jeopardise the whole future of the railway. A subsidy of ten per cent of the revenue is at a level which the public can reluctantly accept.

The moral of this is obvious. The Government have given a new lease of life to the railway section of CIE. The Board and staff must meet the challenge presented to them. The public might also recognise that a public transport system is essential but that it cannot be starved of traffic. There are many private companies who have not even yet permitted CIE to calculate package deal comparisons. They might now reconsider their present attitude.

No doubt there will be changes in the future, the rail and road services will be tailored by need, but the proportion of losing services is complete proof that CIE does not underestimate the need as compared with the economics of service.

As it is now established that CIE cannot pay its way the provision of finance by means of public stock issues is no longer appropriate. Provision is made in the Bill for the issue of capital requirements from the Exchequer. These issues are interest-bearing but the subsidy takes account of the need to pay interest to the Exchequer and provide for sinking funds on the sums advanced. Apart from book-keeping considerations it is desirable that the subsidy voted for the purpose should reflect the true revenue loss of the undertaking. The £6 million capital borrowing provided for is an overall estimate of the sums required for approximately five years. The issues for actual expenditure each year will have to be considered on their merits and no firm estimate of the period for which the £6 million will be adequate can now be given with any certainty. Further capital requirements will necessitate further legislation. The Government's intention is that sufficient capital must be provided to enable the railway to be maintained in efficient operation while avoiding expenditure of an uneconomic kind which may not be strictly essential. The Board is directed, therefore, to confine capital expenditure to essential works or to remunerative projects.

The position of the CIE staff under the new provisions of course merits explanation. CIE is the largest employer of labour in the country. Total staff at 31st March, 1964, is estimated at 20,148, of whom 10,947 were railway employees, 6,402 road passenger employees, 2,675 road freight employees and 124 canal employees. Salaries and wages in the year 1963/64 amounted to about £12.9 million and accounted for 63.6 per cent of the operating expenditure and 65.7 per cent of operating revenue. In addition CIE contributions to their various pension schemes in that year amounted to £648,000, to which must be added the Board's contribution of £238,000 under the Social Welfare Acts making a total contribution of £886,000. The cost of the Board's Welfare Scheme, which is in the region of £96,000, is additional to the foregoing. CIE as a whole, therefore, and the railway in particular, provide a livelihood for many thousands of families and this fact as well as the dry economic statistics and the services rendered to the community must be taken into account in any consideration of our transport problem.

The Beddy Report of 1957 foresaw that a reorganisation of the undertaking on the lines recommended would involve very considerable staff redundancy. The report considered that in determining the staff necessary for the efficient operation of the undertaking a suitable balance should be preserved between younger and older men. During the debate on the Transport Bill, 1958, the Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, appealed to the Unions to relax the "first in, first out" rule so as to enable the staff reductions to be carried out on an ordered basis which would not impair efficiency. Provision was made in the 1958 Bill for the extension of railway redundancy compensation to cover redundancy arising out of the general reorganisation of the undertaking over the five year period provided for and the cost of the redundancy arising therefrom was made a charge on the Exchequer. These special provisions were intended to facilitate the once and for all major reduction in staff which was expected to be necessary if the planned reorganisation was to be carried through effectively and in the expectation that this reorganisation would enable CIE to achieve solvency.

Up to 31st March, 1964, 1,771 CIE employees were retired on redundancy compensation. Of these, 1,699 received annual sums and 72 short-service employees received gratutities. In addition 837 employees received lump sum compensation for worsening of their conditions of service. The cost to date amounts to some £1.8 million but payments will continue on a reducing basis for many years and the ultimate aggregate cost is estimated at over £7 million. The net reduction in staff from 22,051 in October, 1958, to 20,148 at 31st March, 1964, amounted to 1,903. This figure was made up of a reduction of 1,861 in rail staff, 310 in canal staff and 136 in road passenger staff, offset by an increase of 404 in road freight staff.

When account is taken of normal wastage, which in an undertaking such as CIE would average about 3 per cent per annum, or a total of 3,000 in five years, the size of this reduction of 1,903, which was secured only by retiring 1,771 employees on compensation at a cost of over £7 million to the Exchequer, is disappointing. While it is obvious that gross wastage cannot be fully utilised to effect ordered staff reductions arising out of planned reorganisation it does seem that normal wastage should have facilitated staff reduction to a greater extent. In the 5 years from 1953 to 1958, CIE staff, excluding the Hotels Department, was reduced by normal wastage and without resort to statutory redundancy compensation from 20,050 to 19,032, a net reduction of 1,018, including a reduction of 1,271 in rail grades.

Analysis of the statistics of staff retired on compensation shows that 51 per cent were over 60 years while a further 18 per cent were over 50. The high level of railway compensation which is based not only on pay but also on other emoluments which, following the findings of the standing arbitrator, include overtime, travel concessions, gratuities, car allowances, out-of-pocket expenses, etc, is in general more attractive than normal retirement pensions for older men. Staff redundancy has been effected by CIE on a planned basis in consultation with the trade unions, with whom they have to agree the extent to which redundancy will be met by transfer, planned wastage and retirement with compensation, respectively. As the figures I have quoted reveal, there has been a strong tendency for older men to seek retirement on compensation in advance of normal retiring age. The result has been that much of the redundancy has been at the expense of normal wastage, which would have come about in due course, or of transfer with lump sum compensation. For this reason and because older men qualify for a higher level of compensation the cost to the Exchequer has been very much higher than was ever anticipated. The total cost of over £7 million represents an average cost per redundant of approximately £4,000.

The extension of railway redundancy compensation effected under the Transport Act, 1958, and the placing of the cost on the Exchequer were, as I have already stated, wholly exceptional measures to facilitate the rapid and major reorganisation then foreseen. It was not intended that these provisions would be maintained after the period of reorganisation. The Minister for Industry and Commerce when speaking on the Transport Bill, 1958, was crystal clear in his declaration that the same type of redundancy terms would not be perpetuated. Leaving aside the heavy cost, these measures have achieved to a large extent their main objective—that of enabling CIE to undertake certain major reorganisation schemes for which they could not otherwise have expected to receive full trade union co-operation.

Redundancy compensation provisions have been a feature of Irish railway legislation since 1924 and prior to the Transport Act, 1958, the cost fell on the railway companies. Compensation is at a very generous level. Staff with more than five years' service are entitled to compensation pension for life, which is reduced by one-quarter at 65 years. Provision is made for added years and a man with 30 years' service may retire with a pension of two-thirds of his retiring emoluments, which, as I have indicated, may in many cases include much more than pay. This level of compensation is not, to my knowledge, equalled anywhere in the world.

Under the arrangements for compensation of British Railways staff retired on redundancy arising out of the implementation of the Beeching proposals, the dismissed employee receives a lump sum payment amounting to two-thirds of the standard weekly rate for each year of service, plus a weekly resettlement payment, while unemployed, at two-thirds of the standard weekly rate, less unemployment benefit at a single man's rate. The resettlement period over which this weekly payment may be made varies with the length of service and is subject to a maximum of 52 weeks.

Under these arrangements a man with 45 years' service, earning £10.8.0. per week, would receive a lump sum of £312 and weekly payments, while unemployed, which over the maximum resettlement period of 52 weeks would amount to £211, giving him a total of £523. It has been proposed that, in addition to the foregoing, redundant men of 60 years of age or over, with at least 30 years' service, should on expiry of the resettlement period continue to receive half the standard weekly pay, less unemployment benefit, until they find work or reach 65 years of age.

The provision of compulsory compensation by legislation and the generous level of compensation was a recognition of the special problem of a public service which was seen to be contracting and whose permanent staff, having regard to their location and specialised training, would, particularly in former years, have had great difficulty in securing reasonably paid employment elsewhere. Entitlement to these statutory compensation provisions came to be regarded as part of the conditions of employment of railway staff and helped to secure and retain the services of good staff. Though no further major reduction in the railway system is now foreseen and though prospects of alternative employment are better than they were, the Government consider that statutory redundancy compensation provisions similar to those which existed prior to the 1958 Act should be retained.

There is no justification, however, for the payment of the cost by the Exchequer but the cost of possible future redundancy has been taken into account in settling the level of subsidy. Compensation for redundancy arising out of the automation of level crossings, which is analogous to the closing of railway services, and which was first provided for in the 1958 Act, is retained.

The Government do not consider that statutory redundancy compensation provisions are either necessary or deirable to cover redundancy arising out of contingencies other than those provided for in the Bill. The extension of redundancy compensation in 1958 to facilitate the reorganisation of the whole undertaking was a temporary and exceptional measure to meet exceptional circumstances which have now passed. The special drawbacks of railway employment arising out of the possibility of contraction of the system do not apply throughout the undertaking. Many sectors are more likely to expand than contract and many workers, especially tradesmen, could easily secure good alternative well-paid employment.

No special measures are necessary, therefore, to protect their position other than the existing legislative provision under which CIE are obliged to settle the conditions of service of their staff in consultation with the Trade Unions.

In so far as CIE wish to implement measures to secure greater efficiency or productivity and which would affect the level of employment in particular departments they will no doubt negotiate, as hitherto, with the trade unions in order to settle how any redundancy arising would be dealt with. The cost of any redundancy compensation or severance pay which might be agreed would, of course, be a proper charge against the savings to be secured from the increased productivity.

The remaining matters in the Bill are of minor importance. CIE are being enabled to use modern selection methods in recruiting clerical staff but the principles of open competition and competence in Irish are being retained. The Board are being empowered to be represented by officials at certain meetings rather than by directors as required by the somewhat obsolete legislation governing the affairs of the Irish Railway Clearing House and the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company.

Provision is made for retention by CIE staff transferred to Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teo., the new hotel subsidiary, of compensation rights to which they may be entitled. Section 10 deals with the position of a person who may have been dismissed on redundancy, later re-employed, and after a period again dismissed. The section also clarifies the position regarding abatement of redundancy compensation. Section 11 enables the Board to develop land or property not required for its own purposes.

Senators will have noticed that this Bill does not touch on road transport legislation. There are aspects of road transport legislation and indeed other matters, but of a minor character, affecting the affairs of CIE which call for review. Further investigation and examination is, however, necessary before a decision can be reached as to the extent and character of such further amending legislation as may be necessary.

At the close of his speech, the Minister said that the Bill, as drafted, does not touch on many matters of road transport. I should like to bring forward the point that it is a pity indeed the occasion of the introduction of this Bill, the necessity for its introduction, the necessity for a new look at CIE, was not made the occasion for a review of transport in this country in its entirety. We have before us a Bill entitled "an Act to make further provision in relation to transport", but, as drafted and introduced by the Minister, it is in fact a Bill to make further provision for CIE. While CIE constitute a very important sector in transport in this country and while, no doubt, CIE provide some of the most difficult problems in transport, it is not the whole problem.

It is being realised more and more in dealing with the planning of economies and of living conditions in the present age, that a major pitfall lying before all planners is that the best solution to part of a problem may be quite incompatible with the best solution to the problem as a whole. In cases such as this, once we enter into a field such as transport, it is dangerous to go ahead and seek a solution to part of the problem without taking a look at the totality that confronts us.

There is a great need in this country to harmonise and integrate the different interests involved in tranport. This is by no means easy because of the different functions that exist in the different areas of our transport system and the different interests involved. This is not an easy problem because, even within the Cabinet itself, responsibility for transport in the larger sense is divided. The Minister for Transport and Power who puts this Bill before us today is the Minister responsible for public transport. His colleague, the Minister for Local Government, also has many important functions that bear on our whole transport problem.

As I have said, we find ourselves in this House confronted with a Bill which looks only at part of the transport problem. The danger of looking at a problem like this in part is that there will be an even greater tendency than heretofore to take short-term attitudes and seek a way out through short-term solutions.

I feel a great opportunity has been missed. A member of the American Cabinet some years ago enunciated the very comfortable principle that what was good for General Motors was good for the USA. I hope the Minister does not take the view in tackling our transport problem that what is good for CIE is necessarily good for Irish transport as a whole.

Let us look at the position that CIE occupy in the general transport picture. There is no really comprehensive information available on this. Indeed, one of the things I am commenting on now is that there has not been a comprehensive review which would give us this information. Nevertheless, there was a series of papers written in 1962-63 by Mr. D.J. Reynolds, working then in the Economic Research Institute, which do give some information which sketches in the outline of the transport picture in this country. Two of these were published as papers of the Economic Research Institute and Mr. Reynolds also presented a paper before the Statistical and Social Inquiry Society of Ireland. If we look at these papers, we can begin to get some sort of picture.

If we look at transport from the point of view of personal expenditure, we can look at the economy as a whole and ask ourselves: What proportion of the money that people spend on transport is spent on private transport and what proportion is spent on public transport; how largely does CIE and, of course, the other public carriers, which are very small, loom from the point of view of the consumer? The position is that 80 per cent of the personal expenditure on transport is expenditure on private transport and only 20 per cent of the personal expenditure on transport is on public transport. So, from the point of view of the consumer, then, four-fifths of his expenditure is on private transport of one type or another.

The Minister today said that the railway is a good thing, that it is something which must be maintained at all costs. The Government have given close and careful consideration to this problem of the railway and they consider that this is worth £2 million a year, that it is worth raising £2 million a year from the taxpayer in order to maintain this railway.

Before we start to examine whether there is a case for this subsidy, let us see how much does this railway mean, how large does it loom? Turning to Mr. Reynolds's papers, we find that if we take passenger mileage travelled in this country in 1960, seven per cent of all passenger miles is represented by rail travel. So, if we are dealing with passenger travel by train, we are dealing with seven per cent of the total miles travelled and 93 per cent of passenger miles are travelled by road, whether it be by car, taxi, motor cycle or bus.

If we look at the position in regard to freight, we find that here again the rail load is something of the order of 20 per cent of the total ton miles moved in this country. The railway represents only 20 per cent.

These are things we should remember. This is the background we should have before we start to look at the position of CIE over the past five years and look at the question as to whether it is worth our while to spend £6 million capital in the next five years in order to keep this system and, essentially, to keep the railway part of the system working and also to subsidise the running costs to the extent of £2 million a year.

We are able to find out what is the present condition of the CIE system due to the information which is available in the Pacemaker Report. If we look at this report and, in particular, if we look at the figures in regard to the losses on the different services over the past number of years, which are given on page 28, Chapter IV, of that report, the picture emerges quite clearly. These figures are somewhat different from those which the Minister gave in his speech introducing the Bill here today. The Minister was using more up to date figures. The figures given in the Pacemaker report are that from 1945 to 1963 there was a net loss on the CIE system of about £23 million. Of this loss of £23 million, roughly £20 million was lost on the railway, £12 million was attributable to financial charges and these losses were offset by a profit of £9 million on road passenger services.

If we look at the figures for the year 1963, if we look at what happened at the end of the period during which CIE has been operating under the 1958 dispensation, we find a similar pattern. The Pacemaker Report shows that we have a net loss in 1963 of £1.8 million. The railway had a loss of £1.4 million; financial charges represented a further loss of £1.0 million and road passenger services had a profit of £0.5 million, there being also a profit of £0.1 million from road freight.

This, then, is the picture that emerges. If we look at the whole period since the war to 1963, we find a heavy and substantial loss, which is largely due to the railway and also to the financial charges but offset by a substantial profit in road passenger services and a small margin of profit on road freight services.

I want to discuss this picture and what it means. In opening, I said that it is a great mistake to look at only one part of the problem and it would, of course, be a mistake to think that the whole problem of CIE, indeed, the whole problem of Irish transport, is one that can be solved, or discussed, or that decisions can be arrived at about it, on the basis of economics alone. There is here not only a question of economic investment; there is a question of social investment and social values and there is, as we all know, in the case of CIE, because of the large numbers employed, what one might describe as human investment in this very large undertaking. I want to confine myself to dealing with the economic aspects of this, not because I think this is the only relevant factor, but I want to take this one particular aspect for discussion on this Second Stage of the Bill. I think I can do this, particularly because Senator Murphy who is to follow in this debate is particularly well qualified to speak on the social and human aspects of the CIE system, how it has operated during the past few years and how the Bill will affect that system as a human system during the years to come.

We have this system. It is one that did not over the past five years fulfil the hopes that were enshrined in the 1958 Transport Act. What can we do for the next five years? Do we just carry on with the same system and hope for the best or do we decide we must change this system in some way?

The various alternatives have been studied in chapter VI of the Pacemaker Report. In this chapter, there is a complete description and an analysis of a number of possible variants of the CIE system. The first one is system A, the present system. System B is the system recommended in the Beddy Report with approximately 900 miles of railway and a railhead working system. System C is the same as system B, except that passenger traffic on the railway is abandoned, the railways being maintained only for the purpose of freight traffic. System D is one which has a complete road system except for the Dublin suburban railways. System E is a complete road system.

Without going into details about the results of this analysis, I can say that certain things emerge fairly clearly. One of them is—I think it is a fair summary of what is there in chapter VI of the Pacemaker Report—that the elimination of rail passenger traffic, which accounts for only seven per cent of all passenger miles at the moment, would save about £1 million per year. This certainly is something to give us pause. The Minister has said that the solution given in Pacemaker for the elimination of passenger traffic which would enable the railway still to carry on with a relatively slow freight system or the complete elimination of the railway must be ruled out because of the heavy capital charges involved and also because of the large payments for redundancy which would be involved.

It seems to me that this is a rather abrupt dismissal of what is brought forward by the Pacemaker Report. It is pointed out in this report that even though substantial capital charges would be involved in present conditions, these would be greatly offset by increased Exchequer income which would arise under an increased road passenger system or increased road passenger plus freight system. We must look at it from this point of view, that the decision to abandon the railroad for passengers or to abandon it entirely, is one which some Minister will make some day. The railways are not of infinite value to this country and the railways will not last forever.

When the Minister comes before us with a proposition to spend £6 million in capital over the next five years and £2 million per year in revenue, he is, in fact, asking us to provide this money for a system which at some time in the future will go. At some time the railways will be replaced by an all-road system and we should be very careful, when deciding about the investment of capital sums or the provision of permanent subsidies, that these subsidies and capital sums will be devoted towards systems which are moving in the direction of evolution and moving in the same direction as the arrow of transport history. If we decide to invest money in transition from a railroad system to an all-road system, this is an investment which will be part of an ultimate development, an investment which will be compatible with our conditions, say, 15 years from now. If we now spend £6 million more in capital and £2 million a year in order to keep the railroad going, we are doing something which may well be incompatible with our conditions 15 years from now.

It is here we feel greatly the lack of fundamental information which would be given us by a comprehensive study of our transport system, a study to which Pacemaker would be merely a contributory document. We need a study not only of the CIE system but of our whole road system. We need a study of what road traffic will mean in this country in years to come. We need a study to indicate what will be the effect of road traffic on the environment of our towns. We want to know whether the conclusions of the Buchanan Report in Britain on "Traffic in Towns" are relevant to conditions in Ireland and to what extent they are relevant. If we had all this information, we would be in a far better position to make up our minds and the Minister would be in a far better position to make up his mind whether he is throwing money into a lost cause in trying to keep the railroads going.

I am not saying that in the sense that I think the Minister should, on the information available to him at the moment, decide to abandon the railroad overnight. My case is that there is not sufficient information available to the Minister to decide one way or the other. I think the Minister's case that our railroad is worth £2 million a year and worth £6 million capital over the next five years is not a proved case. He has told us the Government have given careful consideration to this matter and decided that this is worth while, that there is a real case for a subsidy. The Minister has said very little in his Second Stage speech beyond his assertion that the railroad is something we must hold, it is something we must hold from a tourist point of view and from the point of view of peak transport. There is very little in this that adds up to a complete case for a subsidy of £2 million a year. The Minister could well have gone into further details on this point.

If we examine what is said in Pacemaker about the case for a subsidy, we find the matter dealt with at chapter 2 and I should like to read to the House what is said on page 4 in justification of a subsidy for public transport:

Another characteristic of transport is that if the community is to be served, services which are inherently lossmaking must be provided. Transport shares this characteristic with postal and certain other services.

At the time Pacemaker was written both transport and postal services were the type of thing which were inherently assumed to be lossmaking services which must be subsidised by the Exchequer. We have, however, since seen the abandonment by the Government of the proposition that the postal services should be subsidised as lossmaking. We have no real case made at any time that the lossmaking services are a necessity. There seems to be an assumption here which needs to be supported in some further way.

The next paragraph on page 4 of the Pacemaker Report states:

These characteristics represent the main element of the Need sector in transport, i.e., the provision of guaranteed scheduled services at published rates or at rates known to be reasonable and the provision of lossmaking services in the public interest.

Later in the second chapter, Pacemaker lists the type of services which should be supported in this way. I should again like to quote to the House the type of services which the authors of the Peacemaker Report think justify a subsidy. I quote now from page 11 of the report:

The identification of the Need sector in transport and its satisfaction is one of the main problems facing the transport policy maker. A Need sector in this context must be defined to be such and the following list gives examples of where Need sectors could exist:

Commuter and other city services of a lossmaking nature.

Lossmaking rural services.

Services designed to further economic development.

Services provided for certain sections of the population (e.g. school children).

Services provided for national prestige purposes.

Services provided because of political considerations.

If we look at these different types of service, we can ask ourselves how many of these should we consider as being worth a subsidy.

If I take the list and read from the bottom upwards, I do not think anybody here would attempt to justify the subsidising of our national transport system on political grounds. The next one in the list is that we should subsidise national transport for prestige purposes. I do not think any very serious case can be made here. Subsidised transport services for certain types of users such as schoolchildren— I do not think this will entail anything like £2 million a year in subsidy.

The next category is that of economic development. I should like to say that I think economic development in different parts of the country and in different industries is best served by a proper allocation of resources and that is best promoted by a correct relationship between costs and prices. Subsidies of all types, with the resulting distortion of costs, are liable to do far more damage to economic development by their distortion of the economy than any benefit to any particular part of the economy. I submit that we must consider then only the question of lossmaking services which are involved in either urban or rural areas, either passenger or freight services in town or country, services by either road or rail.

I mentioned earlier that the Pacemaker Report indicates that if lossmaking passenger services by rail were eliminated, it would save about £1 million per annum. Here we face quite a crucial problem. I must confess my personal preferences for availing of CIE rail passenger service. I travel to this House by such a service and find it excellent. I find it difficult, however, to accept that the continued existence of the rail passenger service, as against its replacement by modern buses such as suggested in Pacemaker, is something that is worth £1 million per year. I think also that the elimination of this service is something which could be taken as a first step in the natural direction which our transport system must follow. If rail passenger services were abandoned without the abandonment of rail freight, the amount which would have to be spent on the permanent way would be greatly reduced, due to the fact that high speed passenger travel would no longer be involved. I think the Minister should say a great deal more in order to justify his request to the House that the railroad be maintained for this purpose at such cost.

We take up the case of railway freight. Is there clear justification from the information available to us for the subsidy in this case? We learn from Pacemaker that 50 per cent of the revenue from rail freight comes from 20 large firms and the report is quite frank in speaking of the dependence of the rail freight department of CIE on the continued business of these 20 firms. These are large firms and are therefore capable at any time of switching over to carrying their own goods on their own account. The charges made to them by CIE are determined by road freight charges and, as frankly admitted in the Pacemaker Report, by fear of losing their custom. If the position is that the CIE rail freight section, in order to hold on to these 20 important customers must quote rates of such a type that these firms will then conclude it is better business for them to be hauled by CIE rather than to haul on their own account, this is getting very close, I think, to the position in which the Minister is asking us to give a subsidy to CIE so that in its railway freight sector it can subsidise the haulage of the goods of large commercial firms.

The Minister has talked of the advantages of tourism and of the problem which would arise at peak periods. Again, I think the Minister could have given us far more detail in regard to this. I think something more is required. For all the information the Minister has given us, he could do a great deal more to convince me, at any rate, that the policy he now propounds is a viable policy which will fulfil his hopes during the next five years in contradistinction to the non-fulfilment of the hopes of his predecessors.

He has stated categorically that the railways are necessary. In view of the information in the Pacemaker Report, there is an onus on the Minister to justify fully his attitude. He has taken the view that we must maintain the railway. CIE, in representations to the Beddy Commission, took the view that if the railway were to remain viable, there would have to be restrictions on private haulage; if the railway were to be enabled to do its job properly, people would have to be restricted and prevented from hauling even their own goods in their own vehicles. The Beddy Commission rejected this. That body stated that, if they had to choose between restricting private enterprise in the haulage of its own goods and the maintenance of the railway, they would recommend the closure of the railway.

That view is expressed in the Report at paragraph 375:

Indeed we regard the proposed restrictions as so unacceptable that if, as CIE has represented to us and as stated in its published Report for 1955-56, they were the only alternative to the closure of the railway undertaking short of the continuance of subsidies on an ever-increasing scale, we feel we would have no choice but to recommend that the closure be regarded as inevitable.

The same submission essentially is made again in the Pacemaker Report at page 3, chapter 7:

The community ultimately has the choice of a railway and restrictions on own account road freight trunk haulage on the one hand; or of no such restrictions and no railway on the other. It has chosen a contradiction in the form of a railway and no private road freight restrictions.

The State must choose between the risk attached to further investment in the railway or the high cost of transition to a form of public transport not involving railways.

The Government has the choice of either continuing the present policy in the knowledge that it is more attractive in the short term; or of anticipating now what is likely to lead to heavy investment and a high degree of redundancy but with benefit in the long term of a public transport system with reduced and controllable deficits.

The Minister with that report in front of him, and much other information not available to us, has chosen to continue the contradiction. He has chosen what Pacemaker characterises as a short-term viewpoint.

I trust that nothing I said will be interpreted as meaning that I consider the railways should, on the information available to us at present, be abandoned forthwith, but I submit that it is equally unjustified to decide that the railways should be continued beyond five years with continuing investment on that same information available to us now. If we look at this problem as a problem of the relation of CIE to our total transport system and the place of that transport system in our whole economic development, we must, I think, regret that there has not been a wider and more comprehensive study of the whole transport system. In my personal view, the railways will go sometime and any policy on transport must recognise that fact. The only room for freedom in transport policy is in deciding the phasing during which the railways will go and the timing of the various stages at which we abandon this particular type of transport.

We are all indebted to Senator Dooge for his contribution. I do not agree with him, but his is the first critical voice raised against the policy adopted in this Transport Bill. The debate in the other House was confused and therefore confusing to anybody trying to follow it. It seemed to be largely a question of a personal quarrel with the Minister, criticism of services provided, or the closing of branch lines, rather than a critical analysis of the policy embodied in this measure.

This is a very important measure. It is not simply a question of a subsidy being provided; it is a question of a major change in policy in relation to public transport. Hitherto the policy was that public transport should be maintained, provided it was self-sufficient. In 1958 that was qualified somewhat. CIE were told they had five years in which to reorganise. It was implicit in the provisions of the 1958 legislation that, if CIE were not able to reorganise in order to become self-sufficient and meet all outgoings at the end of five years, then there was a query as to the future of public transport. Now, however, the Government are facing up to the cold realities of the position. I support the Government in the decision they have taken, namely, that public transport is essential to the economic and social development of the country and must be maintained, even if maintenance involves the payment of an annual subsidy.

It is worth noting that the publication of the Transport Bill 1964, the adoption of this policy by the Government, was welcomed by all the national newspapers. In varying voices, they have all said they thought the decision of the Government was realistic, that they had stopped playing around with the problem, that they had accepted the inevitable, that public transport should be maintained and should be provided with a subsidy. But here, anyway, this afternoon, we have had for the first time a major question raised as to the correctness of this policy and that is why I particularly welcomed Senator Dooge's contribution, even though, as I said, I do not agree with him.

It is wrong that we should attempt to look at public transport on a cold, economic basis. We have to look at it in the context of a public system and it would be equally wrong to regard CIE and public transport as anything but the provision of a public service, a service to the nation, to the community and to the trading and travelling public, and a service designed to help in the economic and social advances of the country, but not an end in itself.

I should like to examine in my own way the justification for, and the nature and extent of the subsidy which is being provided for in this legislation. I have said already that I think the decision to provide a subsidy is a right one. It is, as I said, a public service and must be considered in the light of its contribution to the national interest. There is no doubt—and I do not think this is challenged by Senator Dooge— that the rail passenger service does provide a convenient and worthwhile service. I do not think he would say that it was worthwhile to the extent of providing a subsidy but we are all agreed that the existence of a rail passenger service, which is efficient and comfortable, is essential to the development of the tourist industry. This has been said very clearly by the people whom we have appointed to promote the tourist industry, namely, Bord Fáilte. They have gone on record as saying that it is necessary to provide a rail passenger service for the promotion and development of the tourist industry.

The tourist industry is very important but what is also important is the ordinary service provided for the people who have their existence and live and develop in this country. The rail passenger service is very important for the economic development of the country. It provides a very good and convenient service; it enables business people to travel between the larger centres in comfort and to do their business in these centres. This has been my experience as a trade union official and I imagine that it has been the experience also of other people who, for business purposes, have to travel around the country. You can travel with CIE in reasonable comfort, with the possibility of being able to do some work on the journey, and arrive at your destination comparatively fresh. It is far better and more worthwhile to do this than to drive to your destination in your own car.

This is a contribution to the country but more important certainly is the provision of the commuter service, not merely by rail but by bus. In the larger centres, it is essential that people working in factories and offices should have the most convenient and most economical method of getting to and from their work. This service can best be provided by the nationally-owned public organisation and, even at the expense of providing a subsidy, that service should be maintained and continued.

It is quite true that the present road passenger services would not of themselves need a subsidy but the experience—the arrow to which Senator Dooge referred—shows that the road passenger services increasingly are giving diminished profits. More and more of the services are becoming uneconomic and produce losses. The theory some years ago was that you could make sufficient profit on the road system to meet the inevitable loss on the rail system but increasingly there is this tendency in recent years, which is not peculiar to CIE, that more and more of the road services are lossmaking but they must still be maintained, must still be provided for the travelling public.

Let me deal for a moment with the question of freight services. Here we have a railway system which is convenient for the carriage of large volumes of merchandise but it seems to me that once you have decided, as we are deciding now, to maintain the railways, it is in the national interest to use them to the utmost; that when we have a rail system, the more traffic we can put on it, the better in the national interest. In other words, we should try as much as we can to induce people to use the passenger and freight facilities on the rail system rather than crowd out our road system further. The road system is convenient for individual firms but if we add up the investment of all these firms in their own transport, it could be accepted, looked at nationally, that this is wasteful investment, wasteful expenditure.

We have firms providing their own transport, investing capital in the provision of transport which could be better utilised in other ways. We have the expenditure of large amounts on imported petrol and we have the crowding of our roads. I would seriously advance the viewpoint that, once we do come to accept that the railways should be maintained in the national interest, we should by every means at our disposal induce the utilisation of the railways to the utmost. The more the rail system is used, the less the loss will be and the less will be the need to invest capital in lorries and other heavy equipment crowding up our roads and leading to the rapid deterioration of the existing road system.

I do not think I need dwell on the desirability of providing a subsidy to maintain employment in CIE. The point has been stressed by the Minister whether CIE are a very large employer. I think it can be accepted that they are reasonably good employers. It can be said that many of the people employed by the nationally-owned transport organisation would not find as good or as reasonable employment doing the same work for other private employers. Therefore, it is in the interest of a large section of the community that CIE should be maintained as a nationally-owned public transport organisation rather than that transport should be divided up into small operators, each providing uncertain and certainly not as good employment as the nationally-owned public transport organisation provides.

I should like to say something about the nature of the subsidy, in other words, the way in which the subsidy is being provided. I must say I am disappointed with the references the Minister has made in regard to the subsidy. He said, as he said in the Dáil, that he does not like subsidies, that they breed inefficiency and slackness. He went a little further replying to the debate on the Second Stage in the Dáil. At column 636, volume 210, No. 4 of the Official Report, he says in relation to the subsidy:

It does encourage inefficiency. There is no question that it does encourage inefficiency in any organisation. A deficiency subsidy is very different from capital grants.

I reject completely the view of the Minister that the provision of a subsidy to CIE is going to lead to inefficiency. The need for the subsidy, as was mentioned by the Minister, is because of the inevitable losses on the rail system. There is nothing new about that. Would any of us, however, accept for a moment that because the rail system has been losing, the ordinary worker in CIE has been inefficient or slack? Do we accept that, because now a subsidy is being provided for CIE, that same worker will suddenly become inefficient, slacken up and say: "It does not matter"?

I know the Minister does not welcome the idea of providing a subsidy. I suggest to him that, whatever about his personal feelings in this, it is the worst of tactics to suggest that because a subsidy is being provided, it is going to breed inefficiency and slackness. I do not accept that will be so and I hope the Minister will not continue to repeat it. If he does, he might get some people to believe it. Some of the people in CIE might believe that the provision of a subsidy means they can be slack and inefficient.

If the provision of a direct subsidy breeds inefficiency, as the Minister suggests, then his approach to this problem has been very unimaginative. Over the years, we have had the situation that air transport in this country has been subsidised to an increasing extent. It is subsidised in a variety of ways—by the provision of free capital by the State, by the provision of the airports and the various services connected with them. The fees paid by Aer Lingus for these services never go anywhere near meeting the cost of providing them. In other words, air transport has been subsidised. I am not saying that is wrong. It was the correct thing to do. I do not think there has been any inefficiency or slackness in Aer Lingus because of that. On the contrary, I think they are a very efficient air company.

Equally, the extension of rural electrification has been subsidised. In more recent years, the subsidy has been discontinued, but for many years, rural electrification was promoted by way of subsidy. Do any of us imagine that the ESB would accept that, because there was a subsidy, there was inefficiency? I do not think so. It may be the point the Minister is making is that, because these subsidies were rather disguised, it was a better way of providing them than we are doing here with a straight subsidy of £2 million a year for five years and with a further review at the end of that period. That is why I say that, if the Minister feels this is bound to lead to inefficiency, his way of giving the subsidy is very unimaginative.

The same result could have been achieved, for example, by providing interest-free capital for CIE, or it could have been achieved by a device somewhat similar to that used in relation to Aer Lingus, and by charging a rent or some sort of fee for the use of the system. There are many such devices which could have been used to avoid giving a direct subsidy of £2 million a year for a period of five years. However, the Minister and the Government have made the decision to provide a subsidy in this way. Having decided to provide it, the Minster is certainly very much on the wrong track in suggesting that it will lead to inefficiency and slackness in the nationally-owned public transport company.

Let me come now to the amount of the subsidy. We have been told that after looking at various estimates the Government have decided that £2 million is the appropriate sum. We have been told that the Pacemaker Report has been examined. I have the impression that while the Pacemaker Report did not set out to make any recommendations—it was a report to the Board of CIE—arising out of that report, there would be recommendations or proposals by the Board of CIE in regard to the future of the organisation. I want to ask the Minister if, in fact, the Board of CIE have asked for £2 million per annum, or if they have said that £2 million per annum is sufficient to provide the existing level of services for five years. The Minister was silent on the views of the Board of CIE in regard to this subsidy.

It might be no harm if we tried to put that £2 million per annum into perspective. There is nothing new in public transport in this country, or other countries, losing money. What is new here is the decision to face up to it and provide a subsidy. What has been the experience here over previous years? In the five years from 1951/52 to 1955/56, an average of £2 million per annum was paid by the Government in grants towards operating losses and in advances to meet stockholders' interest. In that same five years, the total national expenditure averaged £500 million a year, so State aid provided for the public transport organisation was less than half of one per cent of national expenditure.

In the past four years, average expenditure by way of subsidy fixed under the 1958 Act—and the cost of redundancy—was a little under £1½ million per annum. National expenditure in those four years averaged £724 million per annum, so in that period the assistance given to public transport was .2 per cent as compared with .5 per cent in the five years from 1951/52 to 1955/56. Therefore, the relative cost of maintaining public transport by way of subsidy has decreased in recent years. I have not calculated what proportion of the national expenditure the £2 million provided in this Bill would represent, but it will fall within the period 1960 to 1970 when the national income is expected to expand by 50 per cent, so I think I would be correct in surmising that the relative cost will be less than it has been over the past decade.

Thank heavens for that.

Thank heavens for that, but I do not think it will necessarily lead to inefficiency or slackness on the part of the people working for CIE. In regard to the people who are working for CIE, may I say that the cost of staff is relatively high in any public transport. The Minister has made the point that about two-thirds of the expenditure of CIE is on wages, salaries and conditions. I think that generally has been the position for many years. CIE are providing a service, and the cost of providing that service is, to a great extent, the cost of employing the people who work within that organisation. Because of that, and because of the number of staff employed in CIE, it is very important that we should get an involvement of the staff, that we should try to break down the idea of conflict between management and staff.

There will always be disputes about wages and conditions, and I suppose there will be occasional strikes. I am not talking about that. I am talking about trying to get every person who is working for CIE involved, in the sense that he feels he is accomplishing something, that he is part of the organisation, that he does not look at his job as somewhere he has to go and clock in at a certain time, stay there until clocking out time, and that he can then start living again as a human being. I should like to see in CIE— and, indeed, in all industry—more interest in the question of job satisfaction. We all accept that as human beings, we are happier if we are engaged on something in which we are interested and in which we feel we are participating. If we feel, like schoolchildren, that it is something unpleasant, something we have to do, and somewhere we have to go, it is far more onerous on us, and possibly we contribute less in the doing of it.

CIE are large employers. They are nationally-owned. I should like in years to come to see a greater interest in, and a greater study made of, trying to get the staff employed more involved in the organisation. I know the Minister will say there is joint consultation and that CIE have had many meetings with the representatives of the staff. That is so, but I think we might be clear as to what is meant by joint consultation in CIE. Joint consultation, as it exists in CIE, is the imparting of information and the consideration of suggestions put up by the staff and the staff representatives. That is very good as far as it goes and I think CIE are probably in advance of most employers in this country in that connection. But it is not joint consultation, which is something very different. I am afraid there is a suspicion in the minds of the management of CIE that joint consultation means something like joint management and that there is a suspicious red tinge about this. Of course, that is not so.

We have seen developments on the Continent where workers and workers' representatives have been more involved in the running of organisations. Joint consultation does not mean joint ownership. It means participation by the staff to the advantage of the concern and, what particularly interests me, to the advantage of the people working in the organisation as ordinary human beings—getting involved in the work, getting satisfaction from being employed.

I do wish the Senator, if he could—it may not be possible for him—would say a little more in detail what is wrong with the method of operating the joint industrial councils and the form of the agenda. I should like very much to hear the Senator. I was hoping that these joint industrial councils would produce an involvement element in which everybody in an area would feel he was making the service better.

With pleasure. I am not talking about joint industrial councils, which are related to the ordinary trade union negotiations and the fixing of terms and conditions of employment as a method of resolving disputes between the trade unions and the management of CIE. I was referring to joint consultation which is something quite different and which should be something quite different from arguments over whether the rate for the job should be so-and-so or something else.

To my mind, joint consultation means that before the management make a firm decision on anything affecting the staff, they will put it forward through the appropriate machinery either at local level, if it is a local matter, or at national level, if it covers the whole undertaking. In other words, when a matter is at the proposal stage, they would discuss it with the representatives of the staff, hear their views, give consideration to their views and then make up their mind on the proposal. Having made a decision, they would convey it to the representatives of the workers employed there. If the proposals made previously by the workers' representatives are not acceptable, they would explain the reasons.

Consultation should take place before a firm decision is made. That is not the position in CIE. There is a conveying of information after a decision has been made and the seeking of the co-operation of the workers in the implementing and progression of the policy decided upon which is very good and, I think, is in advance of most employers in the country at the present time. I am suggesting that that is not full joint consultation and that more benefit could be got from full and proper joint consultation. There is also the other aspect of it which is part of the problem, namely, getting the staff more involved in the actual operation.

This is a problem for the staff and for the management. The Minister has rightly said that the provision of a subsidy presents a challenge to CIE and to the staff employed therein. I am trying to suggest, not very adequately, maybe, that the people employed in CIE are human beings. They are not just hired hands. They should be looked upon as human beings. The more you can get them involved, as human beings, in the work, the more satisfaction they themselves will get out of the work and, I think, the more CIE and the country, the people who provide the subsidy, will benefit. In this country, we are probably very behindhand in the question of, shall I say, for want of a better term, industrial democracy. We are away behind the EEC countries in this matter and I think we should start looking at this problem very quickly. We have an opportunity here because we have a large employer, publicly-owned. Here, we have decided that it must continue even at the expense of providing a subsidy.

I am suggesting that, in the years to come, we should all, both on the trade union side and on the management side, give more consideration to this problem. It would be to the benefit of the human beings employed by CIE and to the public transport organisation.

Let me conclude by stressing what I said earlier. The decision of the Government to provide a subsidy to CIE, the decision that they are committed to the maintenance of CIE for the foreseeable future—CIE as they at present exist—is in my view and in the view of the trade union movement and of the Labour Party the right decision and we support the Minister in that decision.

The story of the economics of CIE is a sorry story but the story which the Minister has given us in his opening address is, I think, an honest one. Proceeding from a hopeful stage in which CIE might have made itself an economically balanced entity, we are all forced to agree that the railways, anyway, cannot now be run on a profitable basis. Therefore, we are about to give them an annual grant of £2 million.

It is an honest approach to say that there will be a deficit of £2 million and that we must make good this figure. At the same time, I fear it will be very difficult for the Board and managers of CIE not to say to themselves, in effect: "Well, we have £2 million to spend" and, if the laws of Parkinson are any indication, that £2 million will be spent. I shall be surprised if, in five years' time when we come to review the position again, that £2 million has not been spent in every year and if we are not faced with a demand for a further sum to keep the railways going. We must eventually get to the position, which Senator Dooge has put to us very frankly, that, sooner or later, the railways will not continue as a means of transport.

I want to deal primarily this afternoon with a very small extract from the Minister's opening statement and a very small part of the services of CIE. I consider it an extremely important part which has tended to be pushed into the background. I refer to the problem of our canals. The canals were dealt with in the Beddy Report in some factual detail, but there was no real recognition of their position, save that it was recommended that CIE should cease to carry goods traffic on them. They have not been dealt with in any detail in Pacemaker. I must admit I have not had the opportunity of studying this report and have given only a casual glance at it, but I do not think it goes into the matter of the canals in any great detail.

The House, in dealing with this Bill, should consider the canals in two aspects, which were not really thought about at the time of the Beddy Report and were, perhaps, not really relevant to Pacemaker. The first is the canals as things of beauty and part of our permanent national heritage and the second, as growing and important parts of our tourist industry. I should like to deal with the canals as things of beauty in the first instance, particularly that stretch of the canal which starts in Dublin and runs from Rings-end to Inchicore, and more especially those few sections from Mount Street Bridge to Baggot Street Bridge, from Baggot Street Bridge to Leeson Street, from there to Charlemont Bridge and on to Portobello Harbour.

Along those four sections, there are some charming and well worth preserving early and middle-Victorian houses and some delightful and older small stone bridges. The trees and what remains of the grass still hold a great beauty which we are in danger of forgetting and losing altogether. Those sections of the canal, with comparatively little expenditure, could be made just as beautiful and just as worthy of visit as any of the canals of Amsterdam or Copenhagen or, indeed, any of the canals of the towns or cities of Northern Europe. They may not be flanked by medieval architecture, or by Renaissance architecture, but they are flanked by architecture of a type which is worth preserving and is indeed part of our heritage.

It seems to me that the Dublin sections of the canals are just as worthy of doing up and laying out as, say, the work which has been, and is being so admirably done by the Board of Works in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham and in Dublin Castle. The canal is just as much part of our real city beauty as those fine buildings and it has a beauty which, if we let it go now, we can never create again.

The canals at the moment are the property of CIE but the loss which the Minister has shown on the canals is a very small portion of the £2 million which is required to subsidise CIE as a whole. The canals are no longer of the slightest interest to CIE as a means of getting revenue from goods traffic. No one is going to suggest that goods traffic should be carried on the canals again. The solution is for CIE to divest themselves of the canals and to hand them over to the Board of Works to be developed as a national monument, just as the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham is being rebuilt and developed as a national project.

It has been suggested that Dublin Corporation should take over the canal, or at least the stretch which I am talking about, the stretch from Ringsend to Inchicore, and possibly use it for the development of a circular road which may well be needed and, at the same time, as an additional and rather cheap drainage facility. This would be the greatest tragedy, and one from which we would never recover. Time is passing and this question of the canals has come up many times. There have been semi-authoritative statements on occasion but no statement has yet been made to give a definite picture of what is to be the future of these canals.

The Minister himself has said there will be no change within existing legislation but that is not something which really indicates what the future of the canals will be because existing legislation can very easily be changed. The Minister for Finance, at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis this year, did say that the canal will be maintained but there seems to have been a certain amount of back-pedalling after that statement was made. It is not really clear to the majority of the people that the canal will be maintained. The Minister for Local Government has said that he would not allow the waterways to fall into disuse but, again, I think he was referring not so much to the Dublin stretch of waterway but to the western stretches near the Shannon. I ask the Minister to give us his authoritative statement as to the future of the canals.

In Dublin the Irish Life Assurance Company have recently come up with an admirable scheme to lay out their stretch of water which their new building overlooks. I am quite certain that if they were allowed to go ahead with that scheme, other similar industrial and commercial organisations as well as the citizens of Dublin would subscribe to any scheme to lay out the rest of the Dublin city stretches of the canal. The comparative cost of the Irish Life Assurance Company project is negligible when put beside the permanent beauty it will create. I think the cost is about £40,000 or £50,000. But to preserve such a beautiful stretch of canal and make it more beautiful is money really very well spent and it will certainly encourage many other institutions and ordinary people to follow suit.

So much for the aspect of preserving the canals as an architectural heritage and particularly that stretch of canal most affecting Dublin. There is the other aspect, the tourist aspect. Canals play a very big part in the development of the tourist trade in the Shannon area. If the Dublin canal were closed as far as Inchicore, I believe the future of the waterways tourist trade west of the Shannon would be seriously endangered because the Shannon and Boyle navigation would be cut off from Dublin, and supplies of tourists considerably diminished. The net result would be that navigation of the Shannon might continue to some extent but not as far as Inchicore or to Dublin.

The present picture of Shannon tourist development is extremely bright. More and more boats are going on to the Shannon and more and more people are coming to Ireland to sail in these boats. I have been given figures of the boats passing through one lock on the Shannon for the years 1960 to 1962. These were 140 in 1960, 475 in 1961 and 725 in 1962. I am quite certain that the figures for 1963 and 1964 will show similar growth. That is a trade which would be killed by the closing of the canal in Dublin.

From this Bill, the railways are getting what is in effect a new lease of life for the next five years. The position may have to be reviewed at the end of five years but they are getting five years' grace. This, I suppose, if not economically sound, is economically acceptable for a State industry. A substantial investment of £6 million is to be made on the capital side and a substantial loss of £10 million to be suffered on the income side. But this type of operation is not economic for individuals who are financing the waterways trade in Shannon. These are ordinary commercial people who want to build and hire out pleasure boats. If they do not know what the future of the canals is to be, they will not be able to make, and would be very unwise to make, any permanent large investment in pleasure boats, or any other enterprises on the Shannon, and other waterways if they do not know how long water access from Dublin to the Shannon will last.

What they need is a statement at least to the effect that for the next ten years, the canals will be kept open. If the canals are kept open for ten years at least, they can budget for a capital expenditure which they can reasonably write off over those ten years. Otherwise, they cannot invest, and this trade will be killed. If the future of the canals is unknown, this trade will be seriously jeopardised and it cannot satisfactorily develop. I think a ten year life is about the minimum for which they can make capital investments and expect a reasonable return.

On the canals therefore I must ask the Minister to make some statement as to the future of the Dublin stretch in particular and of the canals as a whole. I ask the Minister to consider most carefully whether CIE should not now give up all interest in the canals and hand over the entire administration of them to the Board of Works. If this is not done and if our canals are not given a further lease of life, we are in very serious danger of losing, in the first place, a young and vigorous tourist traffic on the Shannon and, in the second, a national beauty area in Dublin, which if we lose it now time will never in any circumstances give us back.

This Bill has been the occasion for much criticism and recrimination in Dáil Éireann, and I am sure the Minister will be pleased to see that it is not being repeated in this House, so far anyway. Indeed, CIE itself is the object of unceasing criticism day in and day out over the year from all kinds of people. This is one of the difficulties of a nationalised transport system. It is a factor which makes life extremely difficult and sometimes almost impossible for the Chairman and directors of CIE.

I feel the Minister has been a victim of the misplaced and innocent belief in the merits of nationalisation by those who came before him as a means of giving the nation a financially viable transport system. Generally speaking, nationalised concerns can exist only in monopoly conditions and mainly live by high charges and high prices for their products or services. Even then, subsidisation has nearly always to be resorted to. We know that CIE charges have had to go up, but in spite of that, it was found that prices could not be pushed up any higher without bringing into operation the law of diminishing returns. Consequently we find this Bill here today. It was found that, with increasing charges of all kinds, it could never be viable.

The original Bills nationalising the railways provided a field day for those who like to condemn private enterprise and who laud nationalisation and State control of industry. The fact, we now know, is that the railways in this country have been an uneconomic proposition for many a long year. I shall not go over the ground back to 1914 when the Railway Tribunal met under the British. The company translated their costs into prices. They were artificially prevented from running the business on economic lines as far back as the First World War. On the other hand motor transport, both passenger and goods, was being fully, profitably and efficiently operated by private enterprise when they were taken over by CIE. Even the canal company was being successfully operated and making a profit.

All the scathing criticisms of the alleged failure of private enterprise in the original railway companies, and the belief that nationalisation was the ideal solution that would give an efficient, cheap and profitable transport system, are now shown to have been sadly wide of the mark. This Bill marks the end of the idea that nationalisation is the solution of our transport problems. The failure of CIE to make a profit is the reason for the CIE failure to live up to expectation. If a private enterprise company fails to make a profit, it goes bankrupt, but when a State or semi-State body fails to make a profit, it has to be subsidised by the taxpayer and kept alive in this manner.

We have in CIE a very good example of the necessity for profits in industry, indeed for good profits, in order not only to cover expenses at any given moment but to provide for increasing expenses which now inevitably occur year after year with almost complete regularity. On each occasion when CIE had been on the verge of making a profit, a new round of wage demands and other rising costs prevented it from doing so, and back deep in the red went the company, in spite of ever-increasing fares.

In a private company, these charges and expenses have to be met and they, having nobody to subsidise them, must make profits, sufficient profits to provide for future contingencies. CIE could never have been made financially viable, unless it could have been closed down, wound up and restarted on a realistic economic basis. There was so much deadwood of all kinds, both in men and material, that no other solution would achieve a satisfactory result.

This line of action obviously could never have been carried out because of the human conditions involved, and thus we have had a series of patchwork and shoring up operations, leading to the situation which prevails and indeed persists today. The socially and economically necessary character of CIE makes it an impossible task for the Chairman and Board of CIE to run the company as a financially viable operation. Indeed to have suggested they should and could do so was very shortsighted.

Our experience of CIE demonstrates many of the faults of nationalisation. One fault, and a main one, is the lack of control by and the lack of information to the real owners of the company, the taxpayers. The Dáil and Seanad are not permitted the details that are normally forthcoming to the shareholders of a private enterprise company. The present system, under which the Chairman and board of directors run the day to day business of the company, appears to me to be quite satisfactory. It is in the sphere of the relationship with the shareholders that matters are unsatisfactory.

It has been suggested—and I agree with the suggestion—that the Chairman and Board of CIE should be responsible to a Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas and not to a single Minister as at present, which puts the Minister in an invidious position in relation to the Houses of the Oireachtas as well as in relation to individual Deputies and Senators. Moreover, the calibre of Ministers cannot be indefinitely relied on to measure up to such responsibility. The present Minister may be perfectly all right, but we are not sure what kind of Minister we may have in charge in the future. Therefore, I regard the suggestion of a Committee of both Houses to look after the interests of the taxpayers, the shareholders, the owners of CIE, as a correct and proper suggestion.

Another fault of nationalisation is that political considerations and political interference at many levels are allowed to, or at least to attempt to, influence the company's activities, making it impossible for the chairman and board to operate a company in an economic and businesslike manner. Government policy has been clearly and repeatedly stated as mainly relying on private enterprise and using State enterprise only when private enterprise fails to supply a need, either through unwillingness or inability to do so.

By all means, subsidise CIE as a necessary social and economic service, but it should not compete from a privileged position with private traders. In other words, it should not compete unfairly with private citizens who not only must pay their way but, as taxpayers, must contribute to the subsidy that keeps CIE in existence. Perhaps there was some excuse for this when CIE were expected to pay their way, but now, under subsidisation, that excuse is removed.

A propos this, I should like to quote from the leading article in Transport and Travel for June, 1964, and perhaps the Minister, when replying, would deal with some of the questions asked there:

The Transport Bill, 1964, as we expected, deals almost exclusively with the State transport undertaking, Córas Iompair Éireann. Repayable advances of £1,000,000 already made to the Board of CIE are now to be treated as a non-repayable grant. An annual grant of two million pounds is to be paid to CIE for five consecutive years, beginning on 1st day of April, 1964. It had been widely anticipated that the Minister for Transport and Power, in the course of his speech on the Second Reading of the Bill, would give some general indication of his policy in respect of internal surface transport. Apart from some vague brief references to "road transport legislation" and "further investigation and examination," he failed completely to do so.

The article continues:

Mr. Childers said: "There are many private companies who have not even yet permitted CIE to calculate package deal comparisons. They might now reconsider their present attitude." This would seem to amount to a threat and is contrary to the Common Market transport policy of freedom of choice for the user. The Road Transport Organisation has informed the Minister that there is very grave concern and anxiety amongst the members. In the existing circumstances, it is extremely difficult for private enterprise licensed carriers to make plans for the future. The Minister has been requested to clarify the position at the earliest date possible.

I should also like to quote a letter which some Senators may have read in today's issue of the Irish Times. It appears to be very apt in the context of the point I am making about CIE and private enterprise:

A circular issued by CIE to many importing and exporting companies solicits their Customs clearance and forwarding business.

Córas Iompair Éireann have already set up a Customs clearance office at Dublin Airport in competition with established agents and it would appear from their circular that they intend to encroach further into this business.

As a Customs clearance agent, I strongly resent that a semi-State body, supported by public funds and consistently losing large sums of money each year, should endeavour to compete with firms who are employing staffs, paying rates, taxes and rents and who are not in receipt of any grants or subsidies of any kind whatsoever. Further, many of these agents operate a transport service which is heavily penalised by CIE insofar as their lorries can only operate within a 15-mile radius of Dublin city and are unable to haul their clients' goods to any point outside the stipulated area.

If CIE wish to compete against private and financially unaided companies, they should do so on level terms. If the protests of the members of the Institute of Shipping and Forwarding Agents do not deter them from this unfair competition, surely elementary justice demands that the haulage privileges which CIE enjoy should be immediately abandoned and Customs clearance and haulage operators allowed to do their business throughout the country without restriction.

I feel the Minister is in a rather embarrassing position. He is the victim of too much optimism by too many people. CIE have been burdened by too many obligations to too many interests to make it possible for them to be in a financially viable position. In many respects, they have grown up in the course of time to be a social service with a huge employment roll and a load of heavy fixed expenses. Even when freed of the legal obligations of a public carrier, they have been burdened with too much weight of inherited expenses of all kinds.

The problem now to be solved is that of subsidising CIE in such a manner as to keep it alive. The subsidy must be such as to do this, but not so large a sum as to cause inefficiency and lethargy throughout CIE. If CIE are oversubsidised, they will deteriorate into a "couldn't care less" attitude in all compartments of the organisation.

Senator Murphy stated that CIE should be regarded as a public service and with this I fully agree, but, this being so, there is no case and no justification for CIE or any other similar State body competing with private traders on unfair terms and from a privileged position. CIE should confine themselves to providing a good public service, subsidised under careful supervision by the taxpayers through their representatives in Oireachtas Eireann.

Following our experiences, it is now proposed in this Bill to subsidise CIE with a fixed sum with the aid of which it must break even. This seems to meet the aim of helping the company without killing the incentive to efficiency.

This Bill, as has been said already, is not the last Bill on transport, but, at least, it is a move along the line of experience. We can deal with our transport problems only as they arise and in the light of the time in which we consider them.

If it is now accepted that CIE provide really a social service, then it must be treated as a social service. I fully support that, but as a social service and as a subsidised service, it should keep away from people who are trying to run their business in a businesslike manner, on their own money and at their own risk.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
Business suspended at 5.55 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

I do not think this opportunity should be allowed to pass without a tribute being paid to the Chairman and Board of CIE for the magnificent work they have done during the past five years. It may be said that they failed; it may be said they were unable to make the railways pay; but one fact is outstanding, that is, that it was not for want of trying. Every possible thing they could do to attract custom, and particularly to attract freight, was done. Every possible publicity gimmick that could be employed was used, and there is no doubt whatsoever that their achievement in bringing down the losses inside three years to just around £250,000 was a spectacular event in Irish business history. They deserve our thanks for the wonderful effort they made. I feel that in the future they will be equally enthusiastic and equally assiduous in giving effect to the terms of this Bill.

As far as I could judge from Senator Dooge's speech, he is anti-railway and he has very little belief in its future. I believe that the maintenance of the railway, in so far as it is economically possible, is essential. I believe that the long distance lines are important, not alone from the point of view of tourist business, from the point of view of internal travel, but also as a guarantee against a future emergency when we shall have means by which large bodies of men and materials can be moved quickly and directly from north to south of the country. It is good business for us to maintain the railway and it is important that we should have no illusions about the difficulties which beset the Chairman and Board of CIE in the past or about the difficulties which will beset them in the future.

I agree very much with Senator Murphy in his analysis of the travel situation as between road and rail transport. On long journeys, there is no doubt that travel by train is much more comfortable than by road. CIE, by the excellent provisions of new rolling stock and by the comfort of the carriages, have made it most attractive to people living in this country and to tourists to use the railway for long distance travel on every possible occasion.

I was a little puzzled, however, by Senator Murphy's appeal for more involvement on the part of the workers. I welcome the appeal and I thoroughly agree with it, but I am afraid Senator Murphy and, if I may go so far as to say so, the Minister and most other speakers here, suffer from the same failure, to call a spade a spade. By that, I mean that this talk about workers having more involvement, workers being more satisfied with their jobs, workers being happy in their jobs, misses the essential point of the whole argument in relation to the national transport company, that is, that it is the workers and the people generally who own the national transport company.

It is not CIE or the Dáil or the Seanad; it is not any group of individuals; it is the people of Ireland who own CIE. It is their institution, their transport company, and the idea that workers have to be appealed to to take a greater interest in their own property or do more for their own good seems to be completely absurd. I feel about this as I do about vandalism in regard to public property, that the fault lies in the failure of the national schools to include in their curriculum any course dealing with civics, bringing home to the children that everything in the public park, the benches, the shelters and so on, are their own property and their dads' and should be guarded and looked after because it is their money that provides them.

The same applies to the workers in the national transport company and I feel the Minister for Education should examine the possibility of instituting a course of civics in all schools. Senator Murphy's powerful organisation, the Trade Union Congress, should institute a course of education, particularly for workers in the national transport company, emphasising the fact that the transport company belongs to them and that it is not a question of anybody appealing to them to do better or take a greater interest in it; it is their business and it is in the interest of their own future and that of those who come after them that they should realise the transport company belongs to all the people and not to any section and there should be no need for anybody to make appeals to them to do better. I hope that the passage of this Bill and the subsidy being given to CIE will make all concerned in CIE realise these facts.

Senator Murphy appeared to be a bit puzzled about how this subsidy was arrived at. I think he did not quite gather the facts from what the Minister said. May I remind him that the Minister in his introductory speech said that the fixed subsidy of £2 million subject to alteration in the light of circumstances at the end of five years, had been calculated after a careful examination of estimates supplied by CIE. It represents what the Government consider to be a realistic estimate of the minimum subsidy with which CIE could get by, on the basis of continued effective management, increased efficiency and productivity and careful husbanding of resources.

I should also like to refer to Senator Murphy's particular emphasis on the Minister's reference to subsidy. The Senator got all hot and bothered over nothing because surely the Minister, as well as Senator Murphy and I, is entitled to believe or not believe in subsidy. In the Minister's speech, I find the reference Senator Murphy mentioned reads as follows:

In general, a subsidy to cover the difference between current operating expenditure and receipts is undesirable as it tends to encourage inefficiency.

I think the Senator was making a mountain out of a molehill in applying that reference to this particular case because he knows, as well as I do, that the normal attitude of 99 per cent of people is that when something comes off a broad board and there is more of it available, it is not usually taken with the same seriousness as if the people had to provide for themselves every single item they spend. There is no doubt whatever that when a subsidy or any money is known to come from the Government in big lumps, it is taken generally to mean that people need not worry too much, that "there is more where that came from" and that if they spend that amount, they can get more. That is a failure not alone of our people but of people everywhere and nobody should get hot and bothered because the reference was made that it was liable to lead to inefficiency. I say it is liable to lead to waste and carelessness unless properly checked.

The Minister went on to say that it is for the management of CIE, the staff and the public to justify this subsidy and to ensure that there is no catastrophic fall in revenue in the next decade or thereafter which would demand further examination of the position. He further said that the Government had given a new lease of life to the rail section of CIE and that the Board and staff must meet the challenge presented to them. Public need also recognises that a public transport system is essential but that it cannot be starved of traffic. It is to be hoped when this Bill is passed, workers and employers throughout the country and the Board and management of CIE will do everything possible to ensure that the railways will attract to themselves sufficient of the heavy freight traffic to help make the institution as economical as it is possible to make it.

There are many other points in this Bill to which reference may be made but I shall reserve any further comments I have until the Committee Stage. I should like to repeat now how good I think the Bill is, how well the CIE directorate have acquitted themselves in the past five years and to express my confident belief that they will continue to acquit themselves just as well in the future.

I support the subsidy involved in this Bill. There may be some provisions in relation to which I may take a somewhat different view but I support the general principle and the amount of money involved. I am surprised that anyone should think the amount too much. CIE is a major industry, ranking next to agriculture. There are 20,148 employed in it. There were more employed a few years ago. It is vital that an industry of the size of CIE should be kept going. The amount involved is not too much. This is a public service for the transport of the people and the goods of the nation. Consideration must be had for those employed. A good service is provided, though some Senators may be critical of that good service.

My personal experience is that I have yet to meet anyone who can legitimately complain against any one of the 20,148 employees from the point of view of not giving good service. These employees are very interested in their job. No doubt there may have been room for disagreement from time to time in relation to the way in which the industry was being managed. That is understandable in an organisation of this size. There are bound to be differences of opinion. Certainly the workers have not exploited the position but management were on occasion foolish enough to make an issue, and that cost the company something. It also cost the workers something. However, when a settlement was reached, it was clearly shown that the workers had a good case and their cause was just. These matters could have been settled at the outset, had there been proper public relations. We hope CIE are reaching that happy state now.

I have been told that 255 single deck buses and 120 double deck buses will be imported as from next September. These buses will be brought in fully assembled. Hitherto the practice was to import the body and the chassis separately and assemble the buses in the depots here, thereby providing employment. I do not regard the suggested change as good policy. It will mean exporting portion of the annual subsidy, a portion which could be retained here for the benefit of our people. If it were retained, it would go back into circulation here. It would not be as big a burden on the taxpayers as some would have us think. The argument is that importing the buses complete will prove more economical. If it is economical to save on labour, then it is an economy to which I do not subscribe.

Around December, 1962, CIE decided to close certain repair and maintenance depots in the country and to bring all the buses to headquarters in Dublin. The depot in Cork was closed and 30 efficient craftsmen lost their employment. Three were later taken back. Where the rest went to seek a livelihood I do not know. I believe emergency repairs are still carried out in the Cork depot but no assembly work is done there. This change has resulted, I am told, in a saving of some £15,000. I have been told also that it would cost £14,000 to put the Cork depot into a proper condition. By not doing that, we effect a saving of £15,000 but it meant that these people lost their employment.

I fail to understand how this saving can be effected because now these vehicles have to be driven to Dublin and back again when they have to be repaired. The previous system may have involved some extra money, and of course we only have one side of the story, but those people would have been retained in the employment in which they had been for a number of years. Even if it did cost a small sum extra, it would not be too much. After all, the money would be circulating amongst the workers in the industry and amongst the community generally and we do provide money to assist other industries. We hand out much larger sums to people who come here in order to assist them to get an industry going. That may have cost some thousands of pounds but it keeps people in employment and there is no objection to the money being given to keep an industry going.

I notice from the Minister's statement in regard to redundancy that it now appears to be the policy, despite the subsidy, to economise further in costings. Of course we have to allow for that, that the company must be run on a businesslike basis. But if it is done on the basis to which I have referred, whether in regard to the railways or the road freight, that would not be good policy.

The Minister told us that the compensation given to workers who lost their employment for one reason or another would be of a temporary nature. I do not think there is anything to that effect in the Bill. The basis of compensation should be uniform and continuous. This is a change of policy. Previously the workers appreciated that if they were compelled to retire because of redundancy before the age of 65, they at least had some safeguard, although they were not fully safeguarded. People may have thought that they received full compensation but they did not; they got only portion of what they would have been earning, and not all that they would have been earning, at retirement age. I should like to hear the Minister further on that point. This is not set out very clearly in the Bill.

The Minister mentioned the 621 miles of railway lines that had been closed. We know that the traffic over these lines had eased off to a great extent, or that particular parts of lines were not paying, but to have taken up these tracks right away was a wrong move. Take, for instance, the 60 miles on the Cork-Bantry line, a very important line. I do not know if the lines have yet been taken up but certainly that was the intention and I think it would be completely wrong to do that. The Minister should have maintained those lines for a reasonable period. Only a small number of employees would be required for maintenance work and the maintenance of lines was never a drag on CIE finances at any time.

Maintaining lines is a very important job, it is laborious work and the men doing it are exposed to all kinds of weather but the number involved per mile is not very large and to keep up this work would not have involved a strain on the company's finances. If the Minister found himself in difficulties at any time, if an emergency arose, he could decide to operate the trains on these lines again. If the line is abandoned completely and the tracks taken up, that is the end of the matter. This matter may have been given some consideration but we have not received any statement on it and we should be careful before abandoning these lines and putting all the traffic completely on to the roads, some of which, as we know, are not capable of or suitable for carrying all the traffic.

It is most important that we should maintain a proper public transport service for the transportation of people and goods. It has been proved that CIE provide the most efficient transport service in the country in regard to the amount of work done, the number of employees, the quantity of goods carried, as well as the number of passengers carried on trains and on buses. We have indeed other efficient people as well as CIE undertaking road haulage and I want to give all of them credit for that. Many people, including Senators, have to use their own cars a great deal because of the nature of their business, but I think it is generally accepted that there is no doubt about the safety of travel on the rail and road services of CIE.

Senator Ó Maoláin wondered if the fact that subsidies were paid caused people not to take their jobs very seriously. Perhaps he did not mean that, but that is what I gathered from him. It must be accepted that the CIE workers, in whatever section of the undertaking they work, are most efficient. That is proved by their safety record over the years. CIE never overpaid them. On the contrary, these workers always had to fight through their organisations to get their entitlement. Despite that, even at the most difficult periods, they always did their jobs well.

You cannot enter the employment of CIE easily. You have to pass an examination, although it would appear from the Bill that that is in danger of being changed to some extent. There were medical examinations. There were various reasons for disqualification. CIE are very strict while a man is in their employment. As a result of the type of work he does, he may lose his employment on the results of a medical examination and find himself not properly safeguarded for the rest of his life. If a worker gives the best years of his life to a job and finds he has to retire, such worker is entitled to consideration. I knew a very efficient and courteous worker who, because his health did not hold up owing to the type of work he was doing, was not allowed to continue in employment. Such workers are not sufficiently provided for. To make proper provision for them might involve an increased subsidy, but in common justice, that should be done.

We have heard some criticisms of nationalised industries getting a subsidy competing unfairly against private enterprise. CIE can call on the public purse to get a subsidy, and that is regarded as unfair competition. But an industry of the size of CIE is entitled to do that. It is hard to make the conveyance of passengers and goods in this country pay its way, but I do not think there is any country in Europe in which the railways are paying. However, that is no justification for the condemnation of nationalisation. We have important public companies doing a very fine job which private enterprise never signified its intention of doing. We have such companies as the Irish Sugar Company, the ESB and Bord na Móna. All these companies are doing very valuable work. They get money from the State, but we must consider the contribution they are making to industry generally. Perhaps private enterprise is making its contribution, too, but big private concerns also find themselves in need of public money; otherwise, they would be in difficulty. The predecessors of CIE, the Great Southern Railways, which could be regarded as a private company, could hardly be regarded as paying their way. Certainly, they were not spending the money on their workers; in fact, it was the opposite. Conditions then were completely out of date with a concern of that kind.

With the reservations I will have when we come to a later stage, I think any money put into CIE is money well spent. The question of management is a very touchy one. To run a large concern efficiently, you need to start at the bottom. In a craft trade, you start by serving your time; you become a craftsman and you may become an engineer. But you cannot take up an engineering job simply because somebody decides—perhaps the Government of the day—that because you are somebody of importance, you are to have the job. You must know something about it.

I have been disappointed that CIE have not given more of their important appointments to people who came up through the ranks. We know work study experts have been brought in to see where economies could be made. You might see a machine imported to wash buses in a garage. It is called a labour-saving device. Perhaps it is found it is not able to do the job fully and the job must be gone over again by garage labour. Nobody is consulted about that. It is a top-level decision. More of these top-level decisions, both in the road and rail passenger departments, should be entrusted to people who came up through the ranks and know something about their jobs. Decisions are made without sufficient consultation.

The Minister may say that there are labour relations now and industrial councils, but I wonder are there sufficient consultations to make the company fully efficient. I wonder are the workers and the workers' representatives, fully consulted. I think the company are inclined to make changes for economy, or for some other reason, and I wonder are the workers called in to meet the board of directors. Do they say: "Yes, we think we should make this change and we would like to hear the views of the workers on the matter"? The way to get a man to take an interest in his job is to consult him. If the employees are consulted, it will be found that considerable improvements will be brought about. The Minister has a very important job. He may not agree with what I am saying, but I have found that that has brought success to industry, and that is why I suggested it.

We all agree that during the past few years CIE have made great strides in organisation, and have done a good job in organising road services. In a great many areas where the railway services have been closed down, they have organised those services competently, but let us not be too complacent about it. The company have a long way to go yet in organising a really competent delivery service. I could give numerous examples to the House of definite incompetence in the delivery service. It might be no harm if those in charge of CIE realised that a great many merchants and people throughout the country are not satisfied with the delivery service they get.

One amusing incident which I might perhaps recount to the House is the case of the man who bought two pigs at the Show in Dublin and they arrived in two separate lorries in Cavan. I could give another example of a consignment of corrugated iron which was bought in Tipperary by a man from Cavan. After three or four telephone calls to CIE head office, it finally transpired that it was in a shed at the North Wall. That could happen in a private organisation too, but someone would hear about it, and probably suffer for it. We must realise that there are still a great many improvements to be made in CIE. I admit it was an enormous task to move from the railways to the road transport service and CIE must be given credit for what has been done in a great many instances.

The road passenger vehicles which have taken the place of the railways are used largely by people who have no other transport facilities. A great many people have cars now, or can borrow a neighbour's car, but there are quite a number of people who must use these transport facilities to get to a market town or to visit their friends. The House and the country are agreed that CIE must be subsidised— and probably subsidised substantially in years to come—and we should be very careful about pricing those people —if I may put it that way—off this transport. The fares on those vehicles, and the fares for goods, should be kept at as reasonable a level as possible. I know a great many instances where railways have been abandoned and the bus fare is now two or three times what it was.

I want to deal now with the very vexed and troublesome question of the transport of cattle by CIE. Quite frankly, on paper CIE have a monopoly of the transport of cattle over any long distance, but there is a great deal of that transport which it would not pay CIE to undertake. There is the case of a man who might go from Meath to a fair in Cavan. He might intend to buy a fair number of cattle but he might only buy two, three or four beasts. How is he to get them to Meath? He must get a CIE lorry, or one of the few licensed hauliers whom it is practically impossible to get. In my area I know of only one within a reasonable distance. In any event, the man has to bring one or two beasts to Meath, Leitrim or perhaps Louth, and the nearest CIE depot may be in Longford. I do not think CIE want to go from Longford to Cavan to bring one or two animals to Meath or Louth. It probably would not pay, but that is what is happening daily. CIE should find some solution for that problem and bring a plan to the Minister.

It happens time and again that a farmer goes to a fair with the intention of buying a lorry-load of cattle if he can get them, but he cannot get what suits him, and buys only a few. He must get them home some way and, quite frankly, in five cases out of ten, they are brought home illegally. His only remedy is to ring up the CIE depot to see if there is a lorry available to bring home two or three cattle, and it is doubtful that there is. I know usually one has to book a CIE lorry some time in advance. They are not available at the last moment.

The only solution I can see is that CIE should select the type of work it is prepared to undertake. It is very important that country people and farmers should know where they stand. CIE should themselves select how much of that type of work they wish to undertake and they should then bring their plan in relation to the whole matter to the Minister. Farmers buying two or three cattle usually have to get somebody else to bring them home illegally and then find a squad car arriving after them but that is the only solution they have, because of the distance of the CIE depot, for the carriage of their beasts. It is very difficult for the Minister and the Department to find the answer to that problem. I think CIE should look into the question and find some answer to that problem. It is a very difficult problem and I agree that it would be a very difficult problem for the Department to make a plan about.

Probably CIE do not want that type of work. I do not think it would pay CIE to accept that type of work. I saw a similar type of work done in Northern Ireland, just a short distance away. A man with one beast for the cattle mart had only to ring up Public Transport and they would come and collect the beast. Anybody with any knowledge of accounts will understand that it did not pay them at all. If CIE undertake that work, then I think the subsidy will have to be much larger than what we are giving them.

There must be some arrangement whereby, over a certain distance, for a certain number of beasts, it will be legal for some private person to undertake transport. A farmer is permitted to take his neighbour's cattle a certain distance. I think we must have some law so that a cattle dealer may take another cattle dealer's cattle or a farmer's cattle, or a minimum number of cattle, or something like that, a certain distance—work which CIE do not want because it would not pay to undertake it. That problem is a great worry to many of our farmers. I hope some solution can be found for it.

Very briefly, I should like to support Senator Ross's strong plea for the maintenance of our canals. Senator Ross gave two good reasons for maintaining them—first the fact that they are objects of beauty in themselves, especially in the city parts, and secondly, the fact that they are valuable for tourism. Senator Ross's figures were very impressive there. He showed that the numbers of boats going through the locks on the canal had gone up steadily and remarkably during recent years. I should like to add one more argument to his. It is a simple argument, but I do not think a contemptible one. In politics as in private life, we all have to do our best to make a virtue of necessity at times. The fact is that in this country we suffer from an over-lavish supply of water. If we could only export this water undiluted to the thirsty countries of Asia or Africa, we could make a fortune. We cannot do that. We export some of it in diluted form in stout, porter and beer. But on the whole, we have to make the best we can of the water nature gives us.

Here, then, we have an opportunity of making a virtue of necessity. The time may come when this amenity of having beautiful stretches of placid water will be sought after from the thirsty countries like Asia and Africa when they become affluent countries, as they will. I think we should maintain these canals for the reasons Senator Ross gave—as objects of scenic beauty and for tourism, and as a means of travelling away from the dusty and noisy roads, and, in case of emergency, of course, as a means of transport. Some of us remember that during the last war the canals were a very useful way of conveying heavy goods. That day might return. I support Senator Ross's plea. I hope the Minister will give us a firm statement this evening on the future of the canals. Perhaps he might go farther. Perhaps he might say that he would set aside specifically a part of the new subsidy for the maintenance of the canals.

I add two more sentences on another topic. I commend CIE for maintaining a punctual and efficient service from Dalkey to Dublin. It is a great advantage to the citizens living there, a valuable relief to the congested roads between Dún Laoghaire and Dublin, and at the weekend it is a fine amenity for Dubliners in search of fresher air and freer seas.

I welcome this Bill as far as it goes but I hope to show, in a rather short contribution, that it does not by any means go far enough. Still, it must be welcomed because it gets away in part from the myth of the 1958 Transport Act which held that a concern such as CIE could be made to pay its way simply by an Act of the Oireachtas. We have now departed somewhat from that. We now say that CIE can be held to a definite scale of subsidy by an Act of the Oireachtas, that is, by section 2 of this Bill. That is a totally unrealistic approach and is not likely to succeed. In fact, it may prove over-wasteful. I am aware that the Minister was not responsible for the 1958 Traffic Act but he has shouldered the burden of it since. Then there was all the newspapers' ballyhoo that CIE were closing the gap. We heard talk about its narrowing to £250,000 and that the next year, only for the increase in wages all round, it would have broken even.

I do not intend to take up the time of the Seanad tonight in going into these figures. I did so on at least two previous occasions. I showed that the figures as quoted were largely the result of, call them legitimate book-keeping tricks of shifting items from one side to the other and of being able to take the proceeds of selling rails and using some of those to meet expenses that would have to be met from the general revenue account if the rails were not available.

The Traffic Act also made considerable reductions in the capital indebtedness of CIE and these manifested themselves in less interest being paid yearly by CIE. This was another part of the imaginary saving that was arrived at. I do not intend to go into these matters now but one can show that the main claim that might be made for CIE since 1957 is that they about held the line on transport in the country. Our exports have been going up at a certain rate and, generally, these were reflected in increased haulage by CIE. CIE got about their share of what was going. I believe, with the way railroads have been struggling in Europe and elsewhere against the more mobile road competition of many of their competitors, that was quite a good achievement and one which was capable of standing on its own two feet, without being in any way subject to all this nonsense about Closing the Gap, which nobody ever believed in.

In any case, I submit we should look on CIE as a national concern on exactly the same level as the ESB. They both give a very important national service, the difference being that the ESB have, of course, a monopoly in power and light supply. The result of having that monopoly is that the ESB can calculate exactly what they require to balance the books and, at stated periods, can increase the price of current accordingly. This is perfectly legitimate and nobody objects to it, provided we are assured that the company concerned is being managed with reasonable efficiency.

We have accepted that on behalf of the ESB but somehow, on behalf of CIE, the unfavourable publicity and all this expediency I have mentioned have created doubt in the public mind as to the efficiency of the organisation concerned. I submit that that doubt is wrong. I have a fair amount of contact with different people and I was talking with some of the officials of CIE. I was quite impressed by the strides they have made and by the general standard of organisation involved. My submission is that if we are satisfied that a company of that scale, a semi-State body, are discharging their function to the best of their ability, then the granting of a subsidy to bridge any deficit that arises is perfectly legitimate. It is just as legitimate as allowing the ESB to advance prices or calculate when they require to do so.

The complications in the CIE case are caused largely by the great volume of private transport available and the fact that failure to increase charges and so on would make the matter almost still worse. My answer to that is rigid legislation, limiting the price of transport; in other words, long distance travel by car and long distance haulage of goods, etc. Now, of course, we reject that. That is incompatible with the type of economy we have got now and our belief in freedom and democracy.

We believe that the people within a wide limit should be entitled to have those services provided for them. On the other hand, if that results in a deficit, then by all means the State should face up to the bill because it is the under-privileged of the country we are dealing with when we come to CIE. Those with other means of transport are all right but at least 65 per cent of the community have no other means of transport over any reasonable distance. We should provide a reasonably efficient service to cater for the needs of those people. Therefore, we have got to maintain CIE on that level.

The difficulty of saying what is economic and what is not can be shown if we take the case of assembly of buses here. This was mentioned by Senator Desmond. Suppose, for argument's sake, that CIE import the buses almost fully made up rather than import them in broken down parts which require a great deal of extra work. Suppose, the difference in price would be £500,000 and that CIE could do that work in their own workshops here. If they did £500,000 worth of work here that money, as I pointed out last week on the Appropriation Bill, when it circulated through the economy, would gather strength. It would be multiplied by at least 1.6 up to two points. It would show up at about £800,000 in the national income returns at the end of the year. The ordinary tax system would operate on that.

The workers would have to pay their income tax. They would have to pay tax on drink and everything else that is taxed. The result would be that about 25 per cent of that amount would get back into the Exchequer again. There would be £200,000 extra in the Exchequer due to CIE doing that job themselves. If it costs CIE £200,000 extra to do the job they would have to pay £700,000 for what could be done abroad for £500,000. Then, as far as the taxpayer here is concerned. the doing of the job at home would have generated the additional £200,000 difference. Therefore, we would be no worse off and we would have the added satisfaction that so many extra of our people were employed here. That, of course, would have meant compensation for the State by getting the additional payment.

In accordance with the terms of the Transport Act, you say to CIE that they must run their business in such a way that they shall not exceed the £1 million subsidy. Would CIE then be right in spending £700,000 to do a job that they could get done abroad for £500,000, thereby worsening their balance by £200,000? Of course, they would not. The terms of the Act preclude any type of philanthropic act by CIE or any other company engaged in that activity. CIE would be £200,000 worse off and the Exchequer would have to carry an increase of £200,000, if CIE did that. That is the mechanism that is missing in our dealings here with semi-State bodies. We have no overall co-ordination. Each one is operating as though it were a private enterprise unit, whose sole concern and yardstick on which to judge it, was on its balance sheet. I submit that is wrong especially with concerns like some of our semi-State bodies such as the ESB, CIE and others.

There is the problem, and I am sorry the Minister has not faced up to it in this Bill. I would willingly support it and every member of both Houses would support it if the Minister came in and said: "CIE can assemble these buses here; they will cost an additional £200,000 but there will be the additional £200,000 in the Exchequer because of them; do you think you can give me permission to pay CIE a subsidy of £200,000 and take it out of the pocket of the Exchequer? But it will not be in the pocket of the Exchequer if we do not let CIE assemble the buses."

Again, let us take the closure of the branch lines which has been such a thorny topic. I submit it is not within the competence of CIE as a single unit to make an economic assessment on whether branch lines should be closed or not. That concerns the overall national picture. It concerns not merely the provision of vehicles to carry the additional traffic on the roads but it concerns the question of the congestion produced on the roads by this traffic and the additional measures which would have to be taken to make the roads fit to carry this traffic. You might say that will have to be done sometime, but we are being forced to do it earlier by the diversion.

If CIE can show a saving by doing that, according to the Bill they should carry out such an operation despite the fact that the county councils and the Road Fund, and many others, may have to pay on the double or treble for the closing of that line. The branch line to west Cork was closed because there had to be a saving of £70,000 a year—£70,000 when we are talking of a subsidy of the order of £2 million. Even if it were portion of an area, west Cork would be entitled to a grant subsidy of £70,000.

Again, let us take what we regard as an act of sheer vandalism, the closure of the West Clare railway. I have been fortunate enough to have travelled in other countries, especially the United States, and I have seen the extent to which they go to make tourist attractions out of facilities which have long since become obsolete in an economic and efficient sense. The Old West is being recreated everywhere in the States. They are bringing out cow catchers, and every type of transport. They are getting the tourist to travel on those and to pay well for doing so. I agree with Senator Desmond on that and I submit that if services are discontinued some of those assets should be left for a period of eight or ten years, or more, before a final decision is taken to tear up the tracks and sell them to Nigeria or somewhere else. When we aim at a tourist potential and the legitimate hopes we have for the future we hold that in years to come Ireland will be one of the leading tourist spots in Western Europe. If it will be, then we need all sorts of unusual features and attractions to please the tourists, and also to collect the tourist dollars.

Take Bunratty Castle, for instance. We all know its success story and the way it has doubled again this year. It is a splendid attraction and one, while relatively costly, for which the tourists never mind paying. Surely it was not beyond the powers and the imagination of those concerned with tourist attraction to figure out how to make a real day trip out of the West Clare railway. We could have singing, for instance, Percy French songs, etc., to help make up an interesting tour of the west. Now all that remains of that very important line is some broken down bridges.

It was the shopkeepers who did that.

The shopkeepers may have caused it.

They would not give any work to CIE and were sending around their own big lorries.

I agree completely that the service concerned may not have been a viable commercial proposition but the fact that it provided a basis for something that could have been invaluable for tourist attraction in the future meant that it should have been left there.

(Interruptions.)

Senator Quinlan must be allowed to continue without interruption.

It all adds up to the fact that an overall view must be taken. I know the Minister will say his Department try to do that but that is not the function of the Minister's Department. First of all, it gives the Minister too much of a veto right on decisions of those statutory bodies. The Minister's function, therefore, should be that of being able to compensate CIE, say, for doing something that costs CIE more but which was in the interest of the country as a whole. Just like the building of the buses, if it could be shown that they cost, say, £200,000 more it should be within the province of the Minister to immediately write off that amount as a subsidy under the heading of CIE.

I am not advocating that we should set back the question and disregard the fact that all our planning is based on entering the EEC by 1970 when evidently free trade will be the order of the day. Of course, what I am suggesting here is anathema to the free trade idealists. What I am saying is, if the facilities are here we should do the job and there should be some assessment, at least up to a certain level, as to where we should draw the line. I submit it is not fair to ask CIE to draw that line because if they do they will draw it too low. If the doing of the job meant the spending of large capital sums in order to set up the necessary workshops for doing it here, it would be a different question because we would have to be cognisant of the fact that the capital might have to be written off quickly and probably the facility might become redundant in 1970. I submit if we are forced into free trade in such items as assembly, and so on, we should carefully consider the national economy first and foremost. As for CIE, I think the flat subsidy given is a wrong idea. By and large we accept under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion to double our exports by 1970. If the exports double and if CIE get their share of that doubling of traffic then it would more than put CIE in a solvent position.

I think it is as simple as that. What we lack is sufficient people in the country and sufficient goods for export. The Second Programme is at least designed to remedy that, as far as the traffic of goods and services goes. In conclusion, I should like to suggest that the time has come for the Government to make a much more progressive approach to the question of the regulation of semi-State bodies. I suggest that a statutory body should be set up mainly concerned with organisation and methods. In other words, a team of efficiency experts. That body should be under the chairmanship of the Minister for Finance, subject to a Joint Committee of both Dáil and Seanad. I feel sure both Houses would be only too anxious to have members serve on it.

Queries that now have to be answered from public platforms or across the floor of either House for lack of an opportunity of asking them elsewhere could be answered by such a Committee. It would be a continuing guarantee to the Irish taxpayers that the organisations concerned were efficiently run. The public would be assured that any increase in subsidy, or increase in prices in the case of the ESB, was justified and should be accepted. The establishment of such a body would set the stage for moving properly into the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and would give semi-State bodies a fair crack of the whip in the discharge of their functions as part of the national team. Otherwise, I can see nothing but continuing frustration, nothing but wrong decisions being taken and criticised.

It is high time legislation was introduced setting a maximum rate of fare per mile. It is not fair that bus fares in remote country areas should be double those in the city. We are a nation as a whole and the country people deserve those services at the same terms as people in the cities.

I should like to pay a compliment to the strides made by the mangement of CIE. It is unfortunate that the public seem to have doubts about this. From personal contacts I have had, I can say everything that is humanly possible is being done to bring an organisation of that magnitude, employing 20,000 workers, up to an efficient pitch. Above all, it is a source of satisfaction to see CIE giving scientists and engineers the necessary training for management. CIE have built their system on those lines and the success it is having is due to it. They have fulfilled a valuable function in this respect and many of their trained executives are moving into other companies and performing very valuable services there.

In appealing for a statutory body to deal with organisation and methods, perhaps I might recount an experience I had within the past week. I had to do some shopping in a store which has been completely modernised, one of the finest in Cork city. It has a wonderful front, a wonderful layout but the chaos is unbelievable. I got to the point where I was buying two beds.

Why two?

We got two. Having bought them in a certain department, we had to go across the street, go through a maze of articles, higgledy-piggledy in every way, until we emerged where the beds were. We then had to put a label on the beds. Then the hunt went on for the mattresses. We had to go to another part of the organisation for them.

Would the Senator come back to the Bill before the House?

They could be used as a mode of transport.

I wish to point out that our ideas of organisation and methods are antediluvian and that CIE are foremost in trying to remedy that. I appeal again to the Minister seriously to consider the setting up of a statutory body to deal with organisation and methods, under the leadership of the Minister for Finance.

I should like to support the plea by Senators Ross and Stanford in regard to our waterways. I feel sure the Minister does not need any convincing in regard to their importance. He has indicated his confidence in their future by the fact that another board under his control has provided £140,000 for a five-year plan for the Shannon.

Not the £10 million.

The maintenance of the Grand Canal as a waterway is essential and I feel sure that when its future comes up for ultimate decision, the Minister will be foremost in advocating its maintenance.

In regard to tourist traffic on the Shannon, I would urge on the Minister the necessity for providing increased freight services. Our roads could do with less of the heavier traffic and a lot of merchandise whose delivery is not of urgent importance could be put on the waterways. That is happening in England and it should be considered here in conjunction with any proposal to develop the waterways for tourism.

The dynamic approach CIE have made in regard to the railways should be followed in regard to other passenger services. The last speaker raised the question of fares. For many years, I have been advocating return fares on buses. Now that the railways have established themselves as part of the national picture from the point of view of efficiency and punctuality, attention should be directed to the bus services.

I suggest there is no reason why a person travelling by train a certain part of the way and being forced to finish his journey by bus should be asked to buy a bus ticket as well as his rail ticket. There should be a system of through ticket which would get him to his destination by train and bus. I come from an area not serviced by a railway—there is one at the southern tip of the constituency but Carrick-on-Shannon and Dromod are serviced by buses. CIE should be asked to introduce bus-train tickets and return bus tickets. Return bus tickets should also be provided on local seaside transport services.

In my area, bus services were operated by three companies—CIE and two private firms. CIE has now abandoned its service because it could not compete with the two private undertakings, which were able to introduce a return fare at a cost little more than CIE were charging for the single fare. I made representations on several occasions to CIE on this matter. I could not understand why CIE were unable to compete or, at least, make some effort to do so. When people calculate the cost of the single fare to their destination and the cost of the single fare back, they may decide that it would be just as economic to use a car. It should be the object of a public transport company to provide a service as cheaply as possible so as to encourage people to travel by the system. If the same dynamic approach were adopted by CIE in relation to bus passenger services as has been adopted in relation to rail services, it would probably bring the same good results.

Another matter to which I should like to draw the attention of the Minister is the question of bus tours. There are parts of the country to which bus tours never go. There are parts of the country through which, apart from tours passing through on the way to Donegal or Sligo, it is doubtful if bus tours ever go. If we are subsidising CIE to the extent of £2 million under this Bill, parts of the country that have not got a railway service are entitled to some of the results of that subsidisation.

In that regard I should like to mention that I came across a leaflet issued last year by CIE advertising certain coarse fishing centres. I resented the fact that CIE should focus attention on any particular coarse fishing area and did not advertise all the coarse fishing centres. If CIE are advertising from a tourist point of view, it should advertise all areas, in view of the fact that the country is subsidising the organisation.

I should be interested to obtain information from the Minister as to the position in relation to the proposed CIE Grade B or Grade C hotels. I should like to know if the company propose to build the hotels as outlined some time ago. It was proposed, I understand, to provide hotels in areas that were not already provided with sufficient hotel accommodation. I have not heard anything recently in regard to the matter. I should like to know the position and whether there is a possibility that these hotels will be provided.

I should like to pay tribute to the officials I have had contact with over the years, both locally and at headquarters. I have found them most courteous, most helpful and at all times most willing to do whatever they could to help out in providing services or in carrying out suggestions. I am sure most Senators have had the same experience.

One comment I shall make is that if the present attitude and image of CIE had been adopted a few years ago, we would not in this House today be asked to support a subsidy of £2 million.

I was rather surprised that the Minister did not supply an explanatory memorandum with this Bill. He spent almost an hour today explaining the Bill, which is a clear indication that he considers it a Bill of much importance. If I were asked if I welcomed the Bill, I would find it difficult to say that I do or I do not. We of the Labour Party must welcome the Bill from the point of view of the workers on the railway because if this Bill were not enacted, then the railways would go bankrupt tomorrow morning and there would be a complete close down.

It is my opinion that the only hope for the railways is to nationalise them for a period of, say, ten years and let the State be completely responsible for running the railways over that period. There is no doubt that the passenger services to the rural areas will not pay within the next ten years. It will depend completely on an increase in population and also on competitive fares to and from the cities and towns. CIE have put up their fares again and again and it has not been the answer. Any motorist knows that he will be stopped ten times between Mullingar and Dublin by people looking for a lift and the people he takes into his car, on being asked why they do not travel by CIE, will tell him they could not afford to do so. That is the trouble. Senator Quinlan has suggested that there should be some sort of national scale to cover areas where the population is not great and even if the service were run at a loss, it would not be bad business.

A few years ago, Dr. Andrews came into Bord na Móna and made a wonderful job of it. He put Bord na Móna on a profit-making basis. He was taken from Bord na Móna and put into CIE. I am sorry to say, and I am disappointed, that taking Dr. Andrews from Bord na Móna and putting him into CIE did not solve any problem for CIE. I or anyone else could have done what Dr. Andrews did when he came into CIE. When a railway route was not paying, he just closed it down. Today there are three railway lines operating in a satisfactory manner— the line to the west, the line to Cork and the line to Belfast. The position about the line to Belfast is not so certain. It could stop at Dundalk some day soon because the people in the North are not a bit worried about the train going to Belfast because they do not think it is a paying proposition.

I would also agree with Senator Quinlan that CIE will have to become more competitive in their prices for short trips. The charging of excessive rates for short trips will not solve any problem for them because people will chance getting a lift or will go on bicycles and avoid the railway or bus service.

I had an experience of a CIE hotel. One night in the month of August I went into one of the CIE hotels in Sligo. It was a fairly good hotel. I shared a room with a friend. I did not have breakfast. In the morning I got a bill for £3 15s. I told the person who presented the bill that I had not had a meal and she said that as a matter of fact they had given me a cut. If CIE are to run hotels and charge £3 15s. for two persons sharing a room, without breakfast, it will kill the hotel business. I made myself fairly busy to discover how many people stayed in the hotel. Although I would imagine that it could hold up to 100 persons, there were not ten people staying there on that night in August. I am not surprised. If CIE charge excessive prices, they cannot expect business. That is one reason why we have this Bill here tonight. The Bill, as I see it, is all contained in sections 4 to 8 because all that CIE are looking for here tonight and all that they must get are grants and the assurance that if they require grants at any time in the future, they will get them from the Government or, otherwise they will have to close down.

I do not think the organisation in CIE is very great. I see a great potential at the present time in issuing special tickets to schoolchildren. The railway makes no effort whatsoever to facilitate children who are attending secondary and vocational schools. Some time ago CIE were requested to change the time of a morning bus from Athlone. They complied with the request. The morning bus was brought forward by twenty minutes but when we asked them for a change in the evening bus, CIE would not agree. Therefore all the children from Lucan right along the road to Kilcock are thumbing lifts. If CIE would run a bus as far as Clonard or Kinnegad, it would cover most of the children and CIE would have a regular income from that service. I am quite certain that in many other parts of the country the same thing could be done and CIE would not only be doing good business but would be doing something worth while for the children of the country. There would be no trouble about getting co-operation from outside bodies such as trades councils, chambers of commerce, vocational committees and principals of schools in arranging the school buses. It is very important, in view of the requirements at present as regards educational standards, that CIE should co-operate with the school authorities and give a better service.

The railway lines which were closed should not have been closed so quickly, because the roads have become very dangerous. The number of accidents has increased and this is due to heavy traffic on the road. The extraordinary thing is that in the improvement of roads which has taken place, the roads leading to the city have not been looked after. The main road to the west has been done but if one gets behind a lorry of a group of lorries on any part of the road from Kilcock to Dublin, there is no chance of passing out without serious risk of an accident. The roads in Meath and Westmeath are 50 feet wide but between Kilcock and Dublin, they are only 22 feet wide. It is extraordinary that the roads were not done near the city where the heavy traffic is and where most of the accidents happen. I would ask the Minister to give serious consideration to that.

The Department of Local Government and the Department of Transport and Power should know something about each other's activities but one would think that one Department was in Belfast and the other in Dublin, there is so little contact between them. They do not seem to have considered what the results of closing the railways would be and what the extra traffic on the roads would mean. There should be more co-operation between these Departments in order to avoid what is happening at the moment. The year 1963/64 is a record year for accidents and there are no prospects that it will be any better in the future, in view of the amount of traffic that has been thrown on the roads in accordance with CIE policy.

Very briefly, I want to add my congratulations to Dr. Andrews and his staff for the manner in which they have improved the image of CIE in a very short time and for the way in which they have dealt with any of us in public life who have had problems on transport and have had to approach them. They are most courteous and efficient and, generally speaking, the service given by each employee of CIE is a revelation. Our rail service nowadays can compare more than favourably with the rail service of any other country. Every employee seems to be interested in helping passengers with their problem.

Naturally I approve of this Bill to subsidise CIE because, like many other Senators, I believe CIE is a necessary social service and that it just cannot be done without by 65 per cent of our people who have no other means of transport. From the national point of view, it is also very important that in an emergency it should be operative. The bus services are very good and, generally speaking, run well to time. However, there is one criticism I would offer, that is, that in some of our not so big towns there is very poor depot accommodation. Whatever is wrong, the people who take on the bus depots of CIE in the towns do not keep them very long. The depots change around continually, with the result that when you want to meet passengers arriving on a bus, you do not know where you will find the depot from one month to the next. That happens in many of our towns and it creates confusion.

Another aspect of CIE activities which is quite a problem is the transportation of livestock, to which Senator Cole referred. It seems to be a most unsatisfactory business, both from the CIE point of view and the point of view of those of us who are interested in agriculture. It is particularly unsatisfactory in regard to the transportation of bloodstock, brood mares, and so on. This is, of course, a spasmodic trade but a very valuable one. For some unknown reason, however, CIE do not seem to have either the inclination or the facilities to provide transportation of that kind.

The members of the Bloodstock Breeders Association and I discussed the problem with Dr. Andrews. He was most anxious to be helpful but pointed out that he was bound by the terms of the Act. What we are looking for is some easing of the regulations in regard to the transportation of any type of livestock but particularly bloodstock in so far as a licence might be granted to stud owners to provide their own transport in this connection. Generally speaking, even in regard to cattle for marts and fairs, CIE are not interested in that business and cannot make it a paying proposition. The only solution is to allow people to provide their own transport for bloodstock, and so on. I can understand Senator Cole's problem. I have seen this on numerous occasions. It is not economic for CIE to transport these animals when, say, the lorry might have to travel 20 miles to collect them and bring them to their destination. The present system does not pay CIE and it does not bring satisfaction to the public. It would be well worth while to consider the possibility of leaving the transportation of livestock completely open.

While there may be many suggestions that could be made in respect of CIE, taking it by and large, the service given by CIE nowadays is quite good. It has its defects, but having regard to the fact that the Minister for Transport and Power did such an efficient job in the Forestry Branch of the Department of Lands, for which great credit is due to him, I have no hesitation in saying that, given a fair chance, he will do something similar for CIE.

I also agree that the country should have an efficient national transport service and that it should be subsidised to the extent sought in this Bill. A point I wanted to make has already been made by Senator Cole and the previous speaker in regard to the transport of cattle to marts and fairs. We have great difficulty in getting private hauliers to do this work and it is impossible to get CIE to do it. It might be a good idea to adopt the suggestion made by Senator Donegan to leave that part of freight haulage to private hauliers. I notice that county committees of agriculture throughout the country have sent up requests to the Department asking that something should be done about this problem and I should like to add my plea to the Minister that there should be some relaxation of the present system in this connection. The day of driving cattle along the roads has gone and very careful consideration should be given to the needs of the members of the community concerned in this problem.

The Leader of the House and other Senators congratulated the management of CIE and I should like to be associated with them. I think CIE are creating a very good image of the railway at present, especially as regards passenger services. These services are now most inviting. They have improved 100 per cent.

First, I should like to pay a special tribute to the House for the very kindly way they have received this measure and for a debate of a most constructive kind showing an absolutely fantastic degree of contrast to the screaming nonsense which I had to endure in the Dáil——

I suppose Roscommon and Leitrim was screaming nonsense also.

——from a number of Deputies although there were also very intelligent speeches by Deputies on both sides. Tributes have been paid by both sides of the House to the reorganisation work of CIE, to the work of Dr. Andrews and to the Board and, indeed, to the whole staff of CIE for the manner in which they carried out these fundamental reorganisation measures in the past five years.

At the same time, there has been normal and natural criticism of decisions which have come to the notice of Senators. Altogether, it has been a very fine debate. I do not think I can deal in great detail with Senator Dooge's very interesting analysis of the Pacemaker Report. It is sufficient to say that when he asks for a complete, co-ordinated examination of all forms of transport in the country, he is perhaps making too much of a comparison with the situation in England with its huge city conurbations, the situation in these regions where almost the whole area is practically the suburb of a city.

So far as cities are concerned, there is need for co-ordination between different types of transport but the only thing we can do is preserve the commuter rail system regardless of whether it pays or not and see what can be done about the road system. In the rural areas the arterial roads are being improved relentlessly, regardless of any factors related to the position of CIE, and will continue to be improved because, I suppose, motor traffic is going to quadruple in 20 years, taking 1951 as base. To assess the need for improved roads the Minister for Local Government is making a survey to clarify anew the main road position and give the main road structure and costing new definition. The National Institute of Physical Planning will assist in dealing with questions of road problems and at the same time, under the Planning Act of 1963, more work can be done to ensure proper planning of roads. CIE will play their part in the system and I do not think that the same immediate necessity for continuous co-ordination of policy between CIE rail policy and the road policy of the Minister for Local Government exists as in the case of a country with a very highly congested population.

Senator Dooge implied that there is a case for closing the railways completely. It would take too long for me to go into that in great detail but to put it absolutely simply, if this country was 300 miles long along the main arterial routes we would not have a problem such as we have to face. It would be very much easier to secure more rail traffic both passenger and goods. If the country was only 60 miles long I do not think there would be any case for having a railway except, perhaps, in a city where one already exists and where quite obviously you have a population problem. One hundred and sixty miles is too short a distance to have any possibility of a passenger rail service on a paying basis: at the same time, it is too long a distance to justify closing all railways. I am merely putting this in an empirical way, without going into details and figures.

There was an implication in what Senator Dooge said about having a policy in which there would be a phasing element in the preservation of the railway or its final closing. I should make it clear that it is my decision fortified by the Government—and I hope it will be the decision of any future Minister for Transport and Power—that there will never be any question of allowing the railway system of this country to run down gradually until it comes to a grinding halt. If, 20 years from now, it becomes necessary to close the CIE railway system I know of no way of doing it except by keeping the railway system running efficiently to the very end and then closing down the whole system over a period of, say, two years. I know you can have people who will say that, quite obviously, the railway cannot continue; let us start to run it down gradually by not replacing rolling stock, coaches and engines and so on. I do not think that is a practical method, certainly not in the case of the arterial part of the system. It might be possible in the case of the odd branch line here and there but in the case of a country with an organised economy whatever the arterial system of transport is, it must be maintained at a high level of services and passenger comfort as well as conditions for the staff.

Senator Dooge referred to the question of whether a subsidy is necessary for the sake of the prestige of the railway. At the moment the rail services are far more comfortable on the arterial lines than bus services and they are faster in a great many cases. For example, it takes at least 1½ hours more to go by bus from Dublin to Cork than it does by train. In the peak traffic periods tourists and our own people returning from holiday would impose a tremendous burden on bus services if they were to carry all passengers. I do not think it is a practical suggestion that the railway should be closed on the ground that we do not need it for prestige purposes. It would make a very bad impression on people abroad if visitors here were to say: "That is the country without any railway service, not even an arterial one." That situation may change 30 years from now, but for the present it is essential for prestige reasons, as well as other reasons, that we should have a railway.

Senator Dooge also referred to the fact that 20 per cent of goods traffic is taken by rail. This 20 per cent traffic, which is very vulnerable because it consists of the goods of ten principal customers, consists mostly of heavy materials. To carry these heavy materials by road very heavy lorries, with trailers, would be required and there would have to be some considerable improvement in the arterial roads to allow of the easy passage of smaller vehicles when these heavy vehicles are passing. The situation in that case is entirely different from that created as a result of the closing of the branch lines where the amount of heavy traffic carried, with the exception of certain traffic, was very low in volume, indeed, and no insurmountable problem, therefore, arose. The fact that CIE carries by rail only 20 per cent of the goods in no way alters the position in relation to our decision to have a main arterial railway freight service.

I hope the growth of bulk traffic as a result of new industries will justify the maintenance of the rail freight service. It is suitable for long haul traffic where double handling can be justified. CIE is gradually acquiring mechanised conveyors, making use of containers and pallets and I hope thereby reducing the cost of double handling which has been the difficulty in maintaining rail freight services both here and elsewhere.

I do not think Senator Dooge fully described the position in regard to the Pacemaker Report in relation to the saving that could be secured by completely closing the rail service. I want to make the facts clear now for the record. If all rail services were abolished the cost would decrease by £1,263,000. These savings, however, would be offset by the additional charges arising from the financing of the change over to an all-road system. Such charges would arise from the financing of the new capital investment required in relation to the alteration to an all-road system and the financing of a redundancy position. As already indicated, we are maintaining the 1958 rates of redundancy to be paid by CIE on the closing of rail services. The total additional annual financial charges in that connection would come to £2,250,000, as compared with £1,250,000. CIE have made it clear that they can only make an all-road service pay if the Government pay the interest and sinking fund charges on the first capital costs of the new equipment. Thereafter it might be that CIE could pay interest and sinking fund on capital to maintain and replace the equipment. It will be seen from that that the economics of closing a railway involve heavy financial commitments, which we do not think justified, quite apart from our general belief that we should preserve an arterial railway system.

Senator Murphy spoke in a very friendly way about the Bill and he defended the subsidy by comparing it with the capital for the air companies. This is not fully remunerated although, in the future, capital expenditure, which will amount to £14 million, is being remunerated, with the exception of £2 million. I do not think one can make comparisons between direct and indirect subsidies, between one State company and another, unless one also describes the conditions under which they operate. In the case of the air services, the air companies were forced deliberately to expand their traffic into short-haul areas in Great Britain and into areas in Europe in which it would take some time to achieve any kind of load factor before they had saved sufficient on the paying services to Birmingham and London, to find sufficient depreciation and to find sufficient profit to purchase the aircraft for engaging in the new short-haul traffics. For that reason they could hardly have been asked to remunerate capital when they were not allowed to build up the service in an economic way as a private company would, quite apart from the fact that many of these short-haul services, valuable from a tourist point of view, do little more than pay overhead contributions because the longer the haul for an air company, as for a rail company, the more profitable the operation. I do not think one can make a practical comparison.

I agree with Senator Murphy that there should be no suggestion that because CIE is receiving an operating subsidy, representing the difference between receipts and expenditure, there need be slackness, if the workers, the staff and the management collaborate. There is always a danger, and the danger is greater in the case of an operating deficit than it is if a once-and-for-all capital grant is given, or if some portion of the capital is not remunerated; there is obviously psychologically a difference between providing the deficit between receipts and expenditure and saying to a company: "You may now have so many millions as a grant from the Government and it is your job to pay your way at home in competition with imports and with exports outside." Obviously, there is a psychological difference between that and a State company receiving a current operating subsidy averaged over a period of five years. I agree with Senator Murphy that if the Board and staff co-operate, as I hope they will, this should not result in slackness and the company should realise that it would be a splendid advantage to the nation if they were able to save on the subsidy offered.

Senator Murphy also spoke about relations in CIE, and so did Senator Desmond. This is a matter I cannot discuss in detail now because the time is not opportune but I hope that relations will continue to improve. In the past five years there have been more than 4,800 meetings between management and trade union officials; 37 joint consultative groups have been established and meet twice yearly. A top consultative group has been established and meets quarterly. Substantial improvements have been made in staff amenities and working conditions. Much remains to be done. Out of all that there can arise a healthy climate of relationship between staff and management which will lead to more association and involvement in relation to the operation of the company. I cannot say more than that. I want to make it clear that Dr. Andrews believes profoundly in the modern conception of labour relations in all its aspects, just as I do. Any difficulties he has had to face did not arise because of any disbelief on his part in modern industrial relations, if they can be achieved. Any difficulties he may have to face in the future will not arise because he does not believe in modern industrial relations; if the representatives of the trade unions and the management can get together he is all for modern industrial relations and I am sure Senator Murphy knows that from his own intimate acquaintance with CIE administration.

In reply to Senator Ross and Senator Stanford, the canal remains open as long as it is used for navigation. The present loss of £43,000 has been taken into account in fixing the subsidy. Future decisions still have to be made. Admittedly, there is a controversial proposal to make use of the Grand Canal for a sewer. In that connection Dublin Corporation and the Minister for Local Government must have discussions. There must be some comment by the Minister. It is my duty, of course, to deal with the tourist amenity of the canal and I hope to arrive at a proper decision as early as possible. In the meantime, I think the majority of the companies hiring pleasure boats on the Shannon need no assurance regarding the future of pleasure boating on the Shannon. There is one company which operates down the canal, but most of them are based on the Shannon and they can go ahead with their investment in pleasure boats without any fear in relation to whether or not the Grand Canal will be kept open. I ought to make it clear that I can see the tourist amenity potential of the Grand Canal and all that will be considered most sympathetically.

Senator McGuire compared CIE with private transport and private business in general. The difference, of course, between CIE and a private company is that CIE provides a continuous service at all periods and maintains a network of transport which would not be maintained at all by a private operator. Again, the difference between CIE and a licensed carrier is the regularity of service and the carriage of goods that are not economic to carry, in comparison with the licensed haulier who, while he may do a good number of jobs for obligement for customers, of one kind or another, he does, in the main, pick and choose traffic which will be profitable for him. These two things are entirely different. Senator McGuire suggested that it was a shortsighted view to suggest that CIE could ever pay its way. I do not need to go into detail on that except to point out that Deputy Morrissey and the late Deputy Norton, as Ministers for Industry and Commerce dealing with Bills affecting CIE, predicted rather cautiously that the result of the Bills might be that CIE would pay its way. The Taoiseach, when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce, also spoke hopefully, but, I am glad to say, more guardedly on the matter in 1958——

He did not in 1942.

——in 1958, and he did not say in the Dáil on the Second Reading that he absolutely guaranteed that CIE would be able to pay its way at the end of five years and he pointed out the difficulties in relation to the railways. In any event, a number of Ministers in the past have hoped that measures would result in CIE paying its way and it is a result of the Pacemaker Report and in having modern costs accountancy within CIE that has enabled us to take a realistic view.

Two Senators suggested that there should be a Parliamentary committee to assess the results of various State companies. That is a very difficult subject to discuss. In my opinion if they were to do their work effectively they would need an absolutely enormous team of experts to assess the companies' reports. It would become a very large organisation and I doubt if there would be much advantage in it. The Dáil can have a discussion when they wish on the report of any State company and during which a great deal of information can be given. I am not ashamed to say, in connection with the debate on the annual report of CIE which arose through the closing of branch lines, that I gave a very great amount of detailed information of every kind, so that nobody can say that he was being deprived of the kind of information he would need to estimate the effect of the closing of branch lines and the financial reasons for doing so.

Licensed carriers were referred to and as I have indicated they are not compelled to undertake uneconomic services. I do not intend at the moment to reduce measurably the small element of monopoly left to CIE. There will, no doubt, be some marginal changes. If CIE can hive off an unprofitable service to a licensed carrier I see no reason why they should not do it if it does not alter any principle.

In regard to the air freight company which was formed recently, and which was referred to by a number of Senators, this company will have to produce accounts separately from those of CIE but of course within CIE; they will be consolidated with CIE accounts. They cannot, however, get a subsidy for their operations. I will see that they operate efficiently for the very reasons suggested by the Senators concerned, that when CIE act as handling agents at airports they will not be allowed to use their privileged position to put other people out of business. They should compete in a general way and for that reason their accounts will be presented separately and no subsidy is provided for that particular operation.

Senator Desmond raised the question of the new method by which CIE propose to assemble buses. I cannot go into this in detail; it is a matter for negotiations between CIE and the unions, but just to put it briefly, I see no reason why CIE should not assemble any vehicle in the same manner as any of the other car assemblers. That is all they propose to do. There is no question of any vehicle being imported more or less manufactured. They want to go into the bus assembly business in the same way as Fords or Morris or any of the other assemblers assemble cars and they have to have regard to the quota arrangements provided by the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Oireachtas, and the duty payments, in exactly the same way as those people who now assemble Bedford lorries or any of the other vehicles. In order to compete with private transport, in order to have the best possible buses, and the lowest costings, and to take advantage of new ideas in bus construction, they are doing this and I hope the whole matter will be arranged satisfactorily.

Employment in Dublin at present is fairly buoyant and I hope that advantage will be taken in regard to re-training and some arrangement agreed to with regard to redundancy if this, unfortunately, should be necessary. I do hope the arrangement will include a measure of re-training having regard to the buoyant conditions which are to be seen in Dublin, at least at present, with regard to that kind of trade. I should like to make it clear that all industry, I am afraid, will have to go through this kind of reorganisation and adaptation and there is nothing unusual in CIE taking steps of this kind.

I am not going to go back to why certain railways were closed. I have given sufficient explanation on that to indicate my view. Some Senators referred to the closing of various branch lines and I have not got time to go into that now. If Senators wish to raise it again we can discuss it on the Committee Stage when the question of the size of the subsidy will be raised. Senator Cole and some other Senators spoke about the cattle haulage services which are provided. I hope that Senator Cole will supply me with any evidence of seriously defective service in relation to the road fleet of CIE. I hope that the arrangements whereby cattle can be carried by a neighbour for reward living within two miles of a farm to a distance of 20 miles, on the occasion of a market, will be sufficient to deal with this problem. It is a very difficult problem. I hope that the position of carrying cattle for obligement will also help towards solving the problem. I have not had very many complaints of the kind referred to today. This matter really relates to the legislation governing the licensing of transport and is not a matter relevant to this Bill.

I do not think I had better go into the details of the questions raised by Senator Quinlan about the £200,000 saving that might be made on the assembly of buses here and all the other indirect costs and savings involved. It would be too complicated and would take too long. I think he is wrong. There is very clearly a saving on the introduction of the bus assembly arrangement. I do not think the questions he raises would be valid in connection with the decision to assemble buses here in the same way as they are assembled by the professional car assemblers in Dublin.

I noticed one more desperate plea for the West Clare railway. I honestly think we have so much to do in the way of providing tourist facilities, such as more "B" to "D" class hotels, more entertainment, more folk villages and more shelters at our seaside resorts that, with the limited funds at our disposal for improvement in the national image, I doubt if we have enough to preserve an antique railway for tourist reasons. It is only my opinion, but I think Senator Quinlan is wrong.

Senator Quinlan spoke about co-ordination between all the State bodies in relation to the Second Programme. It is clearly my responsibility to see that the semi-State bodies who act under my jurisdiction and supervision in general act in compliance with Programme requirements, that the relationship of one semi-State body to another should be considered, that the effect of one company's operations in relation to another company's operations and the effect on the public economy as a whole should be examined in relation to whatever new policy evolves during the period of programming. Equally, it is my job to co-ordinate with other Ministers in that regard. It is my responsibility to report to the Oireachtas the results of the operations of the companies in relation to the Programme for Economic Expansion. The Government have an overall responsibility and we can be defeated if we fail to receive the confidence of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Senator Mooney complained of the lack of bus tours in his area. I hope he will consult the CIE area manager. I find they are first-class people, always trying to get new business. I hope it will be possible for them to consider the Senator's suggestions for local bus tours. I do not think I need say any more. Any other matters can be debated on the Committee Stage.

Does the Minister think it is wrong to say that the Corporation at any time asked that the Grand Canal be used as a sewer? This is creating confusion. It was never suggested that the canal be used as an open sewer.

What I said was that these matters must be properly discussed by the Minister for Local Government. It is not for me to comment, having regard to the dual responsibility of the Minister for Local Government and myself, on proposals by the Dublin Corporation to make any particular use of the Grand Canal passing through Dublin. The position is that it is legally impossible for Dublin Corporation to close the Canal for navigation so long as it is used. I would suggest it is a matter for the Minister for Local Government to comment on the Dublin Corporation's proposals and to make a report to the Government along with my report on the tourist amenity element.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 22nd July, 1964.
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