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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 1966

Vol. 61 No. 5

Public Business. - Restrictive Trade Practices (Confirmation of Order) Bill, 1966—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The object of this Bill is to confirm an Order which I have made under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1953, on the recommendation of the Fair Trade Commission, in regard to the supply and distribution of intoxicating liquor and non-alcoholic beverages.

Senators have already received copies of the Commission's report of their Inquiry into this matter, but I propose to give here a summary of its contents.

The Inquiry related to restrictive trade practices affecting supply and distribution and involving, inter alia, arrangements, agreements or understandings between retailers, made at the instance of retail trade associations, which affect or are capable of affecting the retail prices of intoxicating liquor and soft drinks. The Inquiry was undertaken by the Commission at my request, when, shortly after the introduction of the Budget on the 11th May, 1965, retail prices in the licensed trade throughout the country were increased by amounts equal to twice the amount of the increase in the duties on spirits and beer imposed by the Budget.

The Commission gave consideration to all the relevant factors, including the structure of the retail trade, the gross profit margins in the trade, the activities of trade associations and the preparation of price lists and circulars. They also examined a number of financial accounts furnished by publicans both in Dublin and in rural areas. They took into account the special importance of a fixed gross profit margin when it relates to a trade the value of the sales of which are enhanced by revenue duties of considerable magnitude.

The Commission found that there was only one type of restrictive practice in the trade which fell within the terms of reference of the Inquiry, i.e. the one relating to the preparation and issue of price lists and circulars by retail associations of licensed traders. A remarkable feature of the trade is the number of associations which represent retail interests. These have issued price lists or circulars in 17 counties. To the knowledge of the Commission, 27 associations issue price lists or circulars periodically. In their Report, the Commission describe the procedures employed by a number of associations in connection with the preparation of price lists and circulars. In Dublin, for example, it is the practice for the trade associations to have the question of revised prices considered by its Committee of Management which consists of some forty members of the Association. There is normally a discussion about conditions in the trade generally and an attempt is made to assess the magnitude of increased costs and the appropriateness of making an increase in prices.

It is not the practice to have financial accounts of a cross section of members available for discussion. The Association considers that the combined experience of the Committee of Management enables it to decide in an equitable and satisfactory manner what the new prices ought to be and in this connection, the Association has constantly in mind the desirability of achieving a fixed percentage gross profit margin on turnover. Usually, though not always, a general meeting of the members of the Association is subsequently convened, when the proposals of the Committee are placed before it and a vote is taken after the proposals have been discussed.

When new prices are decided upon by trade associations, they may be notified to members by means of a price list or by the issue of a circular letter or, on occasion, by the insertion of an advertisement in the daily press.

Two associations viz. the Dublin Licensed Grocers' and Vintners' Association and County Sligo Licensed Vintners' Association take measures designed to secure compliance with their recommended prices. These measures are described in Chapter 14 of the Report. The Fair Trade Commission are satisfied that serious and systematic attention to "price cutting" in the Dublin area has been given by the Committee of the Association. Both members of the Association and non-members have been visited by the Organiser and, on occasion, by some of the honorary officers of the Committee in an endeavour to secure their agreement to charge the Association's recommended prices. On one occasion the question of securing the co-operation of the trade union was considered. The Association also took specific measures in certain instances in which compliance with their recommended prices would have created a special problem for members. In regard to arrangements between the Association and Messrs Guinness concerning retail houses owned by Guinness, the Commission were not satisfied that there was not an element of moral pressure underlying the arrangements.

In the case of County Sligo officers of the Association may call on publicans with a view to explaining to them the economic reasons for the new prices proposed and, if a member remains unconvinced, he may voluntarily withdraw from the Association.

The Commission took evidence from brewers, distillers, and soft drink manufacturers, as well as from the licensed trade itself, in regard to the advantages or disadvantages of the issue of price lists by retail associations. Having considered the views of the different parties, most of which they reject, the Commission were of opinion that—

(a) the practice of issuing lists of recommended prices manifestly restricts price competition, since many licensed vintners unquestioningly charge the recommended prices, and do not determine their own selling prices in the light of their own costs and their experience of the trade;

(b) a further restrictive element arises in relation to the enforcement of recommended prices by a number of associations because its objective is to ensure that particular traders charge higher prices than may be warranted in their cases;

(c) such interference with competition is unfair and operates against the public interest, because (i) the public are denied the benefits which ordinarily result from the free play af competitive forces, and (ii) retail prices are recommended on the basis of fixed percentage gross profit margins which are capable of yielding excessive profits, since the profit margins are related to selling prices of which taxation forms an important constituent;

(d) it is not compatible with the public interest that retail prices in the licensed trade should be influenced by the collective action of members of associations whose primary interest is their own welfare rather than the promotion of the public good.

The Commission recommended—

(1) That the practice whereby associations representing the licensed trade issue lists of recommended prices should cease.

The Commission did not see any reason why matters affecting costs or prices should not be discussed at meetings of such associations, but they do think that no recommendations should be made, pressure exercised, or guidance in any form given by retail organisations in regard to the prices to be charged for intoxicating liquor or soft drinks.

(2) That an Order should be made under the Restrictive Trade Practices Acts making it unlawful for retail trade associations or groups of licensed traders (a) to make any collective decisions, recommendations or proposals in regard to the selling prices to be adopted for intoxicating liquor or soft drinks, and (b) to prepare, publish, issue or advertise retail price lists or circulars or other communications (whether oral or written) indicating or recommending alterations in retail prices by reference to existing lists or otherwise.

I accepted the Recommendations of the Commission and made the Restrictive Trade Practices (Intoxicating Liquor and Non-alcoholic Beverages) Order, 1965. The Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1953, provides that an Order of this kind shall not have effect unless it is confirmed by an Act of the Oireachtas. The Bill now before the Seanad is the confirming Bill which is necessary to give force of law to the Order. With Bills of this kind, the arrangement is that the Order which it is proposed to confirm should not be subject to amendment by the Oireachtas but should be accepted or rejected as it stands. The matters with which the Order deals have been the subject of a detailed public inquiry by the Fair Trade Commission and their report sets out the arguments in favour of adopting the provisions embodied in the Order. I can, therefore, recommend the confirmation Bill to the Seanad without reservation. Its enactment should result in the development of competition which should tend to produce more diversified prices at a generally lower level than under the present system, with consequent benefits to the public.

I am sure that anything which will reduce the price of drink would be generally acceptable to Members of the House but it seems to me a strange order of priorities which the Minister and the Government have. This is a measure to deal with restrictive practices in relation to what is a luxury rather than in relation to restrictive practices in connection with the sale of food, essential clothing and other more important and essential items which members of the public have to buy every day. However, in so far as it goes and in so far as it is an indication by the Government of an interest in the matter of lowering prices and keeping prices down, we should accept the Bill.

I would have thought that the Minister might, in introducing the Bill, have given the House some idea as to the content in the price of spirits and beer taken up by excise duty, turnover tax, by profits and, then, by the actual cost to the retailer. The price of drink has risen very sharply over the last number of years. I remember when I came to Dublin in 1945 the price of a half-one was 1/-. Frankly, I do not know what the price of a half-one is now because prices vary so much and, indeed, that is one of the difficulties which face members of the public. I do not know what is the price of a half glass of whiskey, the price of a half glass of brandy—there are so many different brands—or the price of stout because they vary so much. I think it was because of this variety of prices the Minister lost a good deal of the goodwill in the licensed trade—that the price of drinks should be reduced by the same amount in each case, irrespective of what the publican had been selling drinks at up to that time. However, it would be interesting to get some of these facts because members of the public would like to know, in fact, who has the big share out of the price of a glass of whiskey or out of the pint of beer. It seems to me that this is a useful measure as far as it goes but I do not think it will be a very profitable measure from the point of view of the drinking public.

I observe the Minister says the arrangement is—I take it that is under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act— that this Order of his is not subject to amendment. It seems to me that this Order can be got around by a new development which is taking place in the retail trade, both in grocery and in the licensed grocers' business. Part 2 of the Order which we are confirming by this Bill provides that:

A retail trade association shall not, either alone or with another or other trade associations, decide, recommend to retailers for adoption, or propose for adoption by retailers, the retail selling price of—

(a) intoxicating liquor, or

(b) non-alcoholic beverages sold in or from bottles or cans.

Then it goes on to say:

A group of persons (other than persons who are members or officers of the same firm or company) ...shall not make any collective decision, recommendation or proposal relating to the retail selling price of such liquor or beverages.

As I understand it, from watching television and the way I see things developing, there is now a new situation which can become in fact as impeachable to free trade among retailers as these trade associations fixing prices. There is a large area of traders; certainly in the grocery trade, and I am sure it can apply in the licensed trade. It can apply in the licensed grocers' end of the business who are collectively buying in bulk. They are the equivalent of a trade association but they can certainly call themselves a firm. They can say: "We are a partnership, we are buying in bulk" and they can fix retail prices under this Order. It seems to me that this Order is quite defective in that respect; that they can call themselves a firm—a firm is not a limited company, it does not even have to be a partnership. One sees these—the shop with the VG sign, the MACE sign and so on—people like that; they are all a big number of traders and they can call themselves—the VG firm, the MACE firm or whatever their name is, they can fix the retail prices under this Order and that is the end of this Order. They can do effectively what the trade associations are being prohibited from doing under this particular Order.

If there were an opportunity of amending the Order I think that the word "firm" should be omitted. In any event it seems to me that even with this particular Order there is now so much bulk buying going on and so many of the large supermarkets have taken over a number of the smaller traders that a large volume of the trade hitherto being done by numerous small traders is being done now by these firms who have taken over smaller firms and who, in fact, are doing away with the business shops in small towns.

Recently one of these big supermarkets was established in a town in Mayo. The Government should look into this aspect of the situation. Wholesale fraud is being practised by these supermarkets. I saw that the Minister, or someone from the Government side, said in the Dáil that they are bound to sell butter in standard packets of 1 lb. That is supposed to be the position but the people are being hoodwinked. Butter is being sold in packets which contain 14 ozs. It sells at 8d cheaper than 16 oz. packets of butter in these establishments. Unfortunately, the public are being deluded into thinking they are getting value.

This is all worked out by psychologists and salesmen. The whole purpose of the big combines is to extract money in increasing amounts from the consuming public. Fraud is being practised on a grand scale. It is all worked out carefully by the advisers of these great firms for the purpose of deceiving the public, and the public are getting no protection from the Minister or anyone else. There is a great conspiracy on the part of these organised big businesses to extract the maximum amount of money from the public. There is no doubt about that.

I am told that in relation to certain commodities you will not find the same price on a particular item for three months running. The practice is to create confusion in the mind of the public so that they will not know what the price is. If they go to another shop the price is different. The prices are constantly changing. All this ringing of the changes is worked out by psychologists and by men who understand how to work upon the mind of the public. I should like to see these malpractices being dealt with, but this Bill is only a patch or a small improvement in relation to what is a luxury item, intoxicating liquor. This will make no impression upon the amount of money spent by any family in any week, in any month, or over any period of time. I urge the Minister now to look into the fraud that is being perpetrated most skilfully by the big supermarkets and to take stock of the situation. Perhaps I have wandered somewhat from the terms of the Bill.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair will not disagree with that statement.

I hope the Minister will take note of what I believe to be a situation of growing importance, and a situation that is becoming more serious with the passage of time.

I do not understand how the licensed business works but it seems extraordinary to me that you can buy a bottle of gin for 35/10d in one shop, while it costs you 40/- in another shop. I am speaking of good Cork gin. The person selling it at 35/10d must surely be making a profit, but if there is that disparity in the retail price surely someone is making an excessive profit at some stage. Gin is sold at considerably higher prices in licensed grocers. All this adds up to the fact that inordinate profits are being made in some sectors. This Bill is an earnest of the Government's desire to achieve a reduction in prices, but I do not really think it will get to the root of the problem. Competition is becoming less and less in the retail trade, as more and more small firms get together in these loose associations, and as bigger supermarkets intervene. These are matters which require the attention of the Minister and the sooner they get it the better.

Meanwhile, our thanks are due to the Fair Trade Commission who, apparently, ran into difficulties, if my recollection of their proceedings is correct, in trying to get to the root of this problem. They deserve our thanks. I believe the House should have little difficulty in accepting this Bill.

I support this Bill. It simply confirms an Order already made by the Minister under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act, 1953. The Minister has said that following the Budget the price of drink was increased by twice the increase in taxation provided in the Budget. I was puzzled as to why there should have been an increase at all. I thought that price control governed the situation, and that no group of people like this were free to adjust their prices as they willed. They did so, to my mind, in contravention of the legislation then in operation. Apparently they got away with it for a time, and then they were compelled, as a result of an Order made by the Minister, to reduce their prices somewhat.

The effect of this is to prevent trade associations from entering into a conspiracy, if that is the word, to regulate their minimum prices. The Order is now in operation but I am not conscious of the fact that there has been any great decrease in the price of drink. The other night I was charged 1/7d for a bottle of stout, which seemed to me to be an exorbitant price. In spite of this restrictive Order by the Minister, that was the price. Incidentally, I should say I did not simply go to the counter and purchase one bottle of stout. It was easy to make the calculation, and it was confirmed later in the course of the rounds that this bar was charging 1/7d for each bottle of stout. That was an exorbitant price to my mind.

While I welcome this Bill, and the Order made by the Minister and now confirmed by this Bill, I do not think it has had a proper effect in regard to the price of drink. I hope the Minister will keep his eye on this problem and do what he can to prevent profiteering on this source of nourishment.

The Commission's Report lays great stress on the attitude of the trade associations towards gross profits on selling prices. As the Minister has pointed out today in introducing the Bill, in some cases it was suggested that their profit on the duty was actually greater than the profit which they were earning on the commodity itself, on the basis that their profit was on the selling price. I had an impression—I discussed this with a member of the licensed trade from my school days—that profit was always calculated on the buying price, that you got the difference between what you bought the article at and what you sold it at and you then calculated that as a percentage of what you bought it for. Therefore, there would always be a substantial difference. Apparently the attitude of the trading associations in this case is that their profit is always calculated as a fixed profit of their selling price. Therefore, it was timely, having regard to the increases imposed on liquor in successive Budgets, that this Bill should be introduced.

Having said that, I should like to join with the other speakers in expressing a certain anxiety. My own personal experience has been that price lists on display can, in fact, operate as a protection to the consumer. I am speaking of the licensed trade particularly. At least I know that I will be charged what I see on the price list displayed behind the counter. I think the experience of most publicans is that where such a list is on display the general level of prices is somewhat lower than where no list is on display. My anxiety would be something similar to that of Senator Murphy. One may enter a rather more lavish establishment to find there is no limit with regard to the prices which one may be asked to pay. I have not seen any price list displayed in such establishments, either before this Bill was mooted or subsequently.

That is my greatest anxiety with regard to this matter. When displayed in the smaller country public houses price lists generally indicated the price I would be asked to pay. In most cases I did not find the prices exorbitant. While I agree with the purpose of the Order and the Bill in restricting the amount of gross profit that can be charged, I express a certain amount of reservation in relation to the disappearance of price lists. Those price lists acted as a safeguard.

Speaking from behind the counter, I should like to say something about this.

Which one?

Which side of the counter?

I think everybody is agreed that you have a great range of commodities that are daily required by the public at large. Therefore, there would seem to be a necessity for some restriction on price movements. As Senator O'Quigley has said everybody knows that in relation to a wide range of foodstuffs all kinds of malpractices are being employed for getting greater profit. The reason for this is that over this whole range there is no set standard with regard to quantity or quality. Tins and packages are offered to the public without any indication as to the weight or the type of product involved. A general indication is given of the type of product but there is no indication of the weight. If I wanted to look for some sector that I could go into and regulate I would have gone into the licensed trade because in that trade retail is by imperial measure, which is a statutory measure controlled by law. The strength of the spirit is also governed by law and it has to be printed on the bottle. Both the strength and the type of spirit contained in the bottle must be printed on the outside. You have a definite standard of both measurement and quality over that whole range.

The idea that members of the licensed trade have been making an exorbitant profit is complete and absolute nonsense. Everybody knows that in this country up to 15 years ago the standard in public houses was the lowest possibly in Europe because during the depressed times competition was so keen that no publican could invest a penny out of his earned profit to improve his business or make it more attractive for customers.

There are too many public houses.

There might be too many professors.

We are not complaining.

Not at the moment anyway. It is well known that the people who do the best business at the moment in the licensed trade are those who have spent a considerable amount of money in providing new and better facilities and amenities for the customers. The people who find themselves on the lower price structure are gradually going out of business. This is happening because they did not do up their premises. Perhaps they were unable to do so because of lack of capital. It is very difficult for some people to be able to put in new carpets and armchairs and such like. The only people who are on the lower price level are the people who could not do up their premises because they had not the capital to do so. Everybody who goes down the country can see dowdy public houses scattered all around. I know there are at the moment considerable malpractices at the higher level because price control has not reacted on those more sumptuous places. It has reacted very severely on the lower level premises.

The standardisation order had one good effect. It stabilised prices. If the publican in the lower price bracket could get sufficient capital to improve his premises to put it in line with the higher bracket premises he would be got at under the stabilisation order. If he spent a certain amount of money in doing up his premises he could increase his prices like the others. It is a complete fabrication to say that there was gross profiteering throughout the licensed trade. I am prepared to go along with this Bill but I should like to see it applied to a much wider sector.

I should like to come from behind the counter as well and say a few words on this subject. There was reference made to the importance of the fixed gross profit margin. Senator O'Kennedy mentioned it a few moments ago as well. It is wrong to consider the gross profit in the licensed trade, particularly in rural Ireland, when one considers that the turnover in most publichouses is very small and that while the gross profit may be large, the net profit will naturally be smaller and that the expenses of an estabishment can be very high.

It is estimated that in many publichouses throughout Ireland the average weekly takings do not exceed £100. There could be a gross profit of £30 to £35 but the net profit would be as low as £12 to £15. I should much prefer to see the emphasis laid not on the gross profit but on the net profit. I do not understand the objection to the printing of price lists. I have no price list on display, I never had one, but I feel it is a protection for the customer who would then know what price he should be charged and whether a barman was overcharging on his own initiative.

One can go into a shop and see the price of goods displayed—it could be a hardware or furniture shop or a grocery store—but it is being made wrong for a publican to display the price of his goods. One can come across the situation where one publican charges 2/6 for a half one, another charges 2/7 and another 2/8. I suggest there should be uniformity and in order to have it a price list should be put on display.

Senators have drifted from the subject matter of the Order. Confusion may have arisen because Senator Murphy asked how prices were increased when legislation prevented it. That is not so. At the time of the Budget, on May 12th last year, the amendment to the Prices Act had not been introduced. That came in July. At the time of the Budget, the only power available to me was the power of the Fair Trade Commission to investigate. Senators will know that the philosophy of price control as far as the Government are concerned has always been that there should be free and fair competition, that the best form of price control is competition. The activities of the Fair Trade Commission were calculated to ensure such free competition.

At the time of the Budget of 1965, the only power available to me was the power to have the Fair Trade Commission investigate whether there were restrictive practices restricting competition. By the time the Commission reported, however, we had amended the Prices Act and I had new powers, among them being one to fix prices. While the main result of the Fair Trade Commission's investigation was a recommendation to have an Order made against these price lists or circulars being issued by associations, paragraph 86 of the Report suggested to me that I should take action against the increase in price which had taken place before I had the power.

I made another Order, as distinct from the Fair Trade Commission Order, not attempting to make level prices or to make all establishments charge the same but to stop the increase that had been put on. The Order was on the basis of what the price had been before the Budget, plus whatever revenue was put on by the Budget. I did not attempt in that Order to have equality of prices. I do not think Senators should expect lavish premises to have cheap drink. If one wants a carpet with a pile up to one's ankles, soft lights and sweet music, one must pay for it. It is only right that people who want luxurious surroundings should pay for them.

The carpets were provided by Bord Fáilte.

I doubt it. A price list can be made by the owner of a firm —his own price list. What the Fair Trade Commission recommended to me was that I should make an Order preventing associations coming together to make price lists up to which everybody in the trade would have to charge. One point raised was that this Order reflected a Government order of priorities and that this was not commonsense. The Order does not at all determine an order of priorities. The Report of the Fair Trade Commission has an appendix showing the legislation already enacted to confirm Orders.

It includes the Restrictive Trade Practices (Radios) Order, 1955, the Restrictive Trade Practices (Materials) Order, 1955, the Restrictive Trade Practices (Motor Cars) Order, 1956, the Restrictive Trade Practices (Groceries) Order, 1956 (Amendment) Order, 1958, the Restrictive Trade Practices (Carpets) Order, 1960, the Restrictive Trade Practices (Motor Spirits and Motor Vehicle Lubricating Oils) Order, 1961, and the amendment of that in 1962, the Restrictive Trade Practices (Cookers and Ranges) Order, 1962, and the Restrictive Trade Practices (Handknitting Yarns) Order, 1962. It would be wrong to assume this is the first Order made under the legislation or to say it reflects the Government's order of priorities.

The only Order of importance in relation to food was the Groceries Order.

We should think of this as an attempt by the Fair Trade Commission to create competition. Since I got further powers I made an Order in October last requiring three months notification of any increase in price and it covers a very wide range of commodities. Prices have held stable since that time. As well, there have been prices advisory bodies in action and at the moment one of them is examining the price of liquor at the request of those who produce it.

The question of bulk buying was raised and it was suggested that those who buy in bulk could call themselves a firm and thus evade this Order. Bulk buying by grocers, for instance, is for the benefit of customers. It helps the grocers to compete with the new supermarket organisations. It is not true to say they can call themselves a firm because they combine only to buy but they retail as individuals.

The wider idea of consumer protection was raised and it was said there is widespread fraud on the customers. As I have indicated, consumer protection is a very wide field and while I appreciate the need for some consumer protection, I have told the Dáil that with the staff now available to me this is not high among the priorities of our activities. There is protection in so far as an article which is marked at a certain weight must scale that weight. The further protection Senators were thinking of was that articles which appeared to be a certain weight should have the weight stamped on them.

Is there anything in the regulations making it obligatory that when the weight is printed on the packet one would not need telescopic sights to read it?

We have no legislation requiring that it be so labelled.

If the Minister brings in such legislation we shall rush it through very quickly.

I am considering what action might possibly be taken in a piecemeal fashion, though I am not attracted to the idea of dealing with this in a piecemeal fashion. However, a certain amount of uneasiness has been expressed at the way the consuming public are being exploited. However, I think the more publicity given to this type of thing the better and the sooner the public can help themselves to protect their own interest.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill considered in Committee.
SECTION 1.
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill".

Arising out of what the Minister and Senator McGlinchey said, I think the Minister should make clear to the House what I believe to be the situation; there is, in fact, even after this Bill is passed, no objection to any publican displaying his prices in his public house. Senator McGlinchey is of opinion that, because a list which was got out by a trade association would now be prohibited by this Order, all lists are gone. The Minister might confirm that that is so. For my part, I would always welcome being in a public house——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think the Senator is going too far in raising this point on Committee Stage.

We are abolishing under this Order the right of trade associations to supply——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

You are deciding whether or not to confirm an Order the contents of which have been adequately discussed on Second Stage.

Arising out of the Minister's remarks on plush bars and surroundings, would he use his influence to see that something is done to curb the orgies that take place at Government banquets? The public are shocked by the squandering of public money which took place at some of these banquets recently. I believe that this is minor compared with what takes place in Dublin.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair places that also outside the section— unrestricted practices.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment and received for final consideration.

I move: "That the Bill do now pass".

May I repeat the question I put to the Minister?

The effect of the Order which the Bill confirms is to prevent collective action and any man knowing his own costs can exhibit a list of his prices. The purpose is to prohibit collective action, to have prices unrelated to the individual's costs.

Question put and agreed to.
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