It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 4 and 2 as on the Order Paper.
Order of Business.
Before the Order of Business is agreed I wish, with your permission, in accordance with Article 26 of Standing Orders, to request leave to move a motion as a matter of urgent public importance in the following terms:
That this House deplores the action of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries whose refusal to meet a responsible deputation of the farming community has brought about a situation which, if allowed to continue, can be highly detrimental to the national interest, and calls upon the Taoiseach to remove the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries from office with a view to restoring a situation where fruitful negotiation can take place between the Department of Agriculture and the farming community.
Standing Orders make provision for the House to decide on the Order of Business or on any changes in the Order of Business as printed. I, therefore, ask for your approval for a discussion on the motion and for its inclusion in the Order of Business.
I wish to support the Senator's plea to have this matter of grave urgent national importance discussed and to have Standing Orders set aside to facilitate such discussion.
May I take it I have your permission?
The Senator may not.
I shall refer to Standing Order 19 which states that every sitting of the Seanad shall be governed by a printed Order Paper, which shall be prepared under the direction of the Cathaoirleach. The business shall be dealt with in order as printed unless the Seanad shall otherwise order. That gives discretion to the House to alter the printed Order Paper, particularly when we take into consideration Standing Order 20 which states:
The Order Paper shall contain the text of all motions, and amendments thereto, to be proposed save such as are allowed by these Standing Orders to be proposed without notice.
I suggest that Standing Orders 19 and 20 govern my point and give absolute authority to the House in its wisdom to decide to discuss matters of urgent public importance.
I wish to inform the House that the motion mentioned by Senator McQuillan is being brought in under Standing Order 26. I wish also to inform the House that I duly received from Senators McQuillan and Fitzgerald a written statement of the subject matter they wish to have discussed. I have carefully considered it but must rule in accordance with precedent that the motion is not one contemplated by the Standing Order in question.
I wonder could we ask you to expand on that point because it appears that a priori this is precisely the kind of matter of definite urgent public importance which is contemplated by this Standing Order.
The Chair is satisfied it is not a matter of urgency.
You are the only one who is.
The urgency, I think, ought to be apparent if we just walk around the corner and see the people who have shown great courage and solidarity and who have not been afforded the courtesy of a hearing.
The Chair is ruling it is not urgent in the sense contemplated by Standing Order 26.
In view of that ruling——
Senators may take the matter up in some other way but not under Standing Order 26.
In view of your ruling, which I take it binds the House at this time, might I refer to the motion put down by some Fine Gael Senators, among them Senators Malone and McDonald, which has not been circulated yet and which calls on the Government and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to discharge their public responsibility and receive representatives of the National Farmers Association? I think that motion is in order. In view of the fact that we have not met for three months, that this position has arisen, that it is becoming more acute as time passes, that the House is likely to adjourn at an early hour this evening, that motion should be included on the Order Paper or should be taken on the Adjournment.
May I add my plea in support of what has been said? This is a matter of public urgency. We are rather restricted in our debates in this House and we should extend their scope as far as we legitimately can.
This motion may not be discussed as far as Standing Order 26 is concerned.
As I understand the Standing Orders, the House orders the business. In view of the urgency of this matter and the time available for a debate, I wonder whether the Deputy Leader of the House would agree that time be set aside this afternoon or this evening for a debate on the motion submitted by Senator McQuillan and Senator Fitzgerald.
There is no motion on the Order Paper and there is no motion before the House that I am aware of.
I would ask for a ruling on my request. A motion was put down but not circulated. It seems to me, in view of the fact that we are likely to rise early this evening, that this is a matter which the Seanad ought to discuss, particularly in view of the fact that we have been on holidays for three months. When this House is convened at public expense it ought to be in a position to discuss the plight of citizens of this country whose health is in danger.
I want to draw the attention of the Senator to the fact that three to four days notice is required in respect of motions.
This is a House of Parliament and it is not good enough to say that we ought to be bound by out of date precedents which have nothing to do with an unprecedented situation. The Chair is well aware that there is a provision in Standing Orders to enable them to be suspended in order to discuss this matter. If this matter cannot be taken because it is not on the Order Paper, then I ask leave to raise it on the Adjournment this evening.
The question of taking a motion is one for the House and not for the Chair. It would not be in order for discussion on the Adjournment.
On that point, might I remind you and the House that we had this point in regard to the ESB legislation. The matter did not appear on the Order Paper but still the House agreed that it should be dealt with that day. I suggest this matter is of equal urgency and importance and even if it is not on the Order Paper the House should agree to take this motion at this meeting today.
If the Senator is referring to the motion mentioned by Senator O'Quigley that is a matter for the House not one for the Chair.
I now propose that the Order of Business be amended to take the motion standing in the name of Senator Malone and Senator McDonald this evening.
I must point out that this motion is not before the House.
I understand this motion was handed in only a few minutes before the House met.
Senator McQuillan's motion was handed in before that. It was handed in yesterday.
I have ruled that the matter was out of order.
This motion was submitted yesterday. It is not my function to put the notices of motion on the Order Paper. As far as I am concerned there are two ways to deal with this. Standing Orders allow a matter of urgent public importance to be dealt with without notice. Standing Order 20 reinforces that by stating:
The Order Paper shall contain the text of all motions, and amendments thereto, to be proposed save such as are allowed by these Standing Orders to be proposed without notice.
I proposed this motion, with notice, under Standing Order 26. I submit again to you that Standing Order 20 allows this House, not you, in its discretion, to alter the business of the House to include the motion which should have been on the Order Paper because it was handed in yesterday evening.
The Chair understands, and the Chair is satisfied, that this motion handed in by Senator McQuillan was handed in in accordance with Standing Order 26, not as a substantive motion.
It was handed in in accordance with Standing Order 26. It is not my function to put notices of motion on the Order Paper. The ruling given by you could not be described as democratic in the face of Standing Order 20. It is not you but the House which has discretion in such matters, especially when it is a matter of urgent public importance. I would appeal to the Members of this House to support the motion which I am now moving that the Order of Business include the motion submitted yesterday. I think it is necessary that the House should give a decision on that. I would ask you to allow the House to make a decision itself rather than put yourself in the embarrassing position, at this stage, of deciding something that should be decided by this House.
What is the motion all about?
The Chair wishes to inform the House again that this motion was submitted yesterday in accordance with Standing Order 26, not as a substantive motion.
The Standing Order in its discretion allows this motion to be taken if the House agrees here today on the Order of Business. I put it to the Leader of the Government Party that we are rejecting the Order of Business. I disagree with it as outlined by the Leader of the House, unless it is ordered to move the motion put down by Senator Fitzgerald and myself.
That motion is not before the House.
I am now opposing the Order of Business and on that I challenge a division. My reason for so doing is the failure of the Government Party to allow on the Order of Business a motion which is of absolutely vital importance to the security and wellbeing of the community. It is a matter of grave urgent importance. The frustration of the farmers is reaching boiling point as a result of the interpretation——
I know where you would put them if you got the chance.
The Senator is moving that the House divide and I am putting the question accordingly.
Would you take into consideration that the Taoiseach said last night in a public speech that the rate of the flight from the land is unprecedented and that the farmers of Ireland are in a desperate state now?
(Interruptions.)
The Senator will resume his seat. The question before the House is that the Order of Business be agreed.
And do you agree, Sir, that it is a matter of public importance when a Minister of State describes the small farmers of this country as——
The Chair has already ruled.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair has ruled that the matter raised by Senators McQuillan and Fitzgerald is not one of urgency under Standing Order 26.
We are rejecting the Order of Business. Your refusal to give time and the Government's rejection of this motion——
(Interruptions.)
Before the House has decided on the Order of Business, I want to have it amended so as to include the substantive motion which is put down. If the motion is not available at this late hour—20 minutes past three—it would take 25 minutes to have it typed. I ask that a motion be added to the Order of Business that it be taken this evening when we have concluded the early debate on the limited Order we have.
The Chair suggests that Senator O'Quigley discusses the matter with the Leader of the House and we will take the matter——
We cannot be satisfied with that. I want to know whether the Leader of the House agrees to have that motion taken this evening. If he will not, we shall have a division on it. If it is not taken as a formal motion, I suggest we take it on the Adjournment, as we are entitled to do.
When did you ever do anything for the Irish farmer?
Give us an opportunity of discussing it this evening and we will tell you.
We should be glad to give the Government spokesmen an opportunity of expressing their views and making their excuses.
What did you——
Senator Ahern will resume his seat.
As far as the Acting Leader of the House is concerned, there is no motion on the Clár before us. If Senators opposite did not consider it worthwhile to put in a motion on this matter, which they consider of such urgent importance, until five minutes to three, surely they do not expect the Acting Leader of the House to make a decision on that matter now. We have already been told that this motion came in at five to three today.
The Chair cannot allow this matter to go on all evening.
The Acting Leader pretends he is not in a position to agree to this and I want to know why that motion is not available now to the Acting Leader. It should be available. I have given the substance of it and there can be no objection to discussing it when we have time.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to".
Senators
Vótáil.
What are we voting on?
On the Order of Business.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 20.
Tá
- Ahern, Liam.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brennan, John J.
- Browne, Seán.
- Connolly O'Brien, Nora.
- Dolan, Séamus.
- Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
- Farrell, Joseph.
- Fitzsimons, Patrick.
- Flanagan, Thomas P.
- Honan, Dermot P.
- Killilea, Mark.
- McGlinchey, Bernard.
- Martin, James J.
- Nash, John Joseph.
- Ó Donnabháin, Seán.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- O'Sullivan, Ted.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, William.
- Teehan, Patrick J.
- Yeats, Michael.
Níl
- Alton, Bryan G.
- Carton, Victor.
- Cole, John C.
- Conlan, John F.
- Crowley, Patrick.
- Dooge, James C. I.
- FitzGerald, Garret M. D.
- Fitzgerald, John.
- McAuliffe, Timothy.
- McDonald, Charles.
- McHugh, Vincent.
- McQuillan, Jack.
- Malone, Patrick.
- Murphy, Dominick F.
- Ó Conalláin, Dónall.
- O'Quigley, John B.
- Prendergast, Micheál A.
- Quinlan, Patrick M.
- Sheehy Skeffington, Owen L.
- Stanford, William B.
Tellers: Tá, Senators O'Farrell an d Ó Donnabháin; Níl, Senators J. Fitzgerald and McQuillan.
Question declared carried.
Might I mention another matter which arises, I think, appropriately at this stage? Under Standing Order 25 I want to ask if you in your absolute discretion and in view of the close Vote which has taken place on the amendment to the Order of Business, would permit the motion to be raised on the Adjournment tonight. I know that it should have been in before 3 o'clock yesterday but the Chair will appreciate that the situation which we are dealing with is somewhat akin to the condition of a sick person that one watches from hour to hour and hopes that there will be a change and a turn for the better. That has not happened in this particular case and, consequently, the motion was not put down in time to comply with Standing Orders. I would ask you, in view of the closeness of the Vote which has been taken just now, if you would exercise your discretion and allow this matter to be raised on the Adjournment this evening.
The House has given its decision on a motion before it. In the light of the discussion and of the studies I had made of this matter before coming into this House, I am satisfied that it is not a matter that may appropriately be raised on the Adjournment.
Are you now ruling that the matter is not proper to the Adjournment and earlier on it was not of urgent public importance? Which leg are you standing on? Do you still maintain that this is not a matter of urgent public importance? I mentioned that the Taoiseach——
The Chair is satisfied.
There were 500 small farmers from Roscommon out there and they were described as a mob by the Minister for Justice.
Let the Senator mind his own trade.
The Chair is calling No. 1 on the Order Paper: the Minister for Finance.
They have a duty to see that fair play is carried out.
Senator McQuillan will resume his seat.
We have a situation now where Fianna Fáil are seeking to divide the urban and rural areas. At a special meeting——
Senator McQuillan will resume his seat.
At a special meeting——
I will have to ask Senator McQuillan to withdraw from the House.
I want to make my position quite clear in this. I do not want to describe you as a tool of the Government——
The Seanad is adjourned until 4 o'clock.
All right: adjourn the Seanad.
Sitting suspended at 3.45 p.m. and resumed at 4 p.m.
No. 1. The Minister for Finance.
Arising out of the Order of Business, on a point of order, might I refer to the fact that there is no specific time for the Adjournment of the Seanad which is an item on the Order Paper. As I now understand the position to be that you have already ruled that the matter raised by Senator McQuillan is not a matter of urgent public importance as contemplated by Standing Order 26—that ruling, of course, binds the House— and in view of the fact that so far as precedent is concerned upon a previous occasion Senator Sheehy Skeffington was enabled on the Adjournment to raise the question of the ill-treatment of horses for export, might I be permitted this evening to raise on the Adjournment the matter of the sufferings of the members of the National Farmers Association and ask the Seanad to urge the Minister for Agriculture to meet these people in order to alleviate their sufferings——
The Senator is now abusing his privilege. The Order of Business has been decided by the House. The matter mentioned by Senator O'Quigley may not be raised on the Adjournment this evening.