Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 1966

Vol. 62 No. 2

Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Bill, 1965: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Senators will, I am sure, be generally aware of what this Bill contains. Its main object is to introduce to Irish law the principle of leasehold enfranchisement; that is, it proposes to give persons who are paying ground rents the right to redeem these rents by buying out the fee simple of their property, the fee simple being the greatest estate in land that can be acquired under our law. The Bill also gives persons who have to collect ground rent from neighbouring lessees and pay the total to a common landlord a right to obtain an apportionment of the rent, following which each lessee will be liable for the payment of his own portion of the rent direct to the landlord.

A system of simplified arbitration by county registrars is being provided to cater for the determination of the purchase price of the fee simple as well as any other difficulties which may arise under the Bill when the parties concerned cannot agree. However, to reduce such disagreements to a very minimum a maximum purchase price of the fee simple is being provided which should apply in the bulk of cases; in that event the purchase price awarded by the county registrar will not exceed such sum as would enable the landlord to maintain his income if he had invested the purchase money in the most recent National Loan.

The Bill also amends, in a number of lesser respects, the existing landlord and tenant law. It reduces from one-sixth to one-eighth the fraction of the gross rent which will be payable when a reversionary lease is given on the expiration of a building or proprietary lease pursuant to the Landlord and Tenant (Reversionary Leases) Act, 1958. It provides that where a landlord relaxes a covenant restricting change of user or the carrying out of minor improvements he will not be entitled to gain financially, and that, where planning permission for such work has been obtained, it will not be necessary to obtain the landlord's consent at all. It deems a covenant in a lease requiring the lessee to insure with a named insurance company or agency to be one which does not specify such a company or agency. It abolishes the general rule that the lessee must bear the lessor's costs of drawing-up the lease.

Finally, it provides that a very limited range of covenants will continue to have effect after purchase of the fee simple, namely, covenants which protect the lessor's own amenities or which are required to enable the lessor to comply with a statutory obligation, covenants relating to rights of way or of drainage or other such rights which are necessary to secure the development of land.

There is hardly any need for me to emphasise how important the basic principle of this Bill is; the acceptance of the principle of leasehold enfranchisement is a truly revolutionary departure in the law of landlord and tenant. Since the end of the last century there has been a continuous movement for the introduction of this principle and there is a long history of attempted legislation to that end. Until now, however, it might be said that the arguments for and against leasehold enfranchisement have been so contradictory that, on balance, it was not considered clearly desirable to interfere with the long established leasehold system.

On the one hand, it has always been argued that the leasehold system has facilitated good estate management and the proper development and maintenance of property and that this is in the interests of both landlords and tenants. Particularly in Dublin, some of the most attractive squares and public places owe their continued existence to the system. On the other hand, it is argued that the tenant's wish to control the property which he had purchased at full price is a very natural one and is more in keeping with sound social policy than control of that property by the landlord, who has only a minor interest in it.

More recently it is argued that the leasehold system has outlived its usefulness and that landlords are no longer using the restrictive covenants primarily to maintain the quality of the neighbourhood but rather to make a financial gain for themselves. There is, of course, a large number of other arguments adduced on both sides. All these arguments were fully considered by the Ground Rents Commission which came down unequivocally on the side of giving lessees the right to become the fee simple owners of their property.

To my mind, recent advances in social and economic developments in this country justify the recommendations of the Commission. In this day and age, when we have had such a widespread advance in private ownership of houses and when property development — and indeed physical planning and development generally— is the subject of new thought and new techniques, I think it is only fitting that the philosophy underlying property ownership should also be the subject of fundamental rethinking.

My personal view is that, in terms of 1966, ground rents and the form of ownership which creates ground rents, are an anachronism. The defect of this particular form of ownership is that the person deriving the income is not in actual control of, or in association with, the working of the property. To my mind it should be the objective of legislation to reflect as far as possible, this modern social thinking by achieving a situation where the ownership of property is associated, to the greatest possible extent, with the control and further development of that property. This measure will be an important step in that direction.

I am, therefore, very happy to be in a position to sponsor legislation which should mark the end of a controversy which, as I have mentioned, goes back to the end of the last century. Moreover, it is gratifying that the solution was one which was recommended unanimously by a Commission who were highly qualified to deal with all aspects of the matter and that the main principle involved was fully acceptable, and indeed welcomed, in Dáil Éireann.

While the principles involved in this Bill were generally agreed in Dáil Éireann, Senators will be aware that we had there a very constructive debate as a result of which I accepted certain suggestions and introduced amendments which, I think, should improve the Bill in point of detail and should ensure that the Bill will operate efficiently and effectively. I should like to emphasise that any suggestions which Senators may wish to put forward for the improvement of the Bill so as to make it work better will also be fully examined and if possible given effect to.

One of the difficulties arising under the Bill is involved in answering the question "Who will be entitled to buy out the fee simple?" My own general approach to this question is that the right should be given to as wide a range of persons as possible, subject, however, to the general principle that the rent payable must be ground rent. A further difficulty arises here because there is no clear cut legal definition of "ground rent". Most people, however, have a fairly good idea as to what the term implies. It is generally taken to mean a rent payable by a tenant who owns the "bricks and mortar" interest in the property; it clearly does not include a full occupational rent or what is more generally known as a "rack rent".

The Ground Rents Commission gave very careful consideration to this question and they were satisfied that only the person who had improved a bare site by erecting buildings on it or who had acquired that person's interest in the buildings should be entitled to buy the fee simple. These are the persons who are given a right to a reversionary lease for at least 99 years at a fraction of the letting value under the Landlord and Tenant (Reversionary Leases) Act, 1958, and who are called building lessees or proprietary lessees in that Act. It is to these lessees, together with certain yearly tenants whose rents are generally regarded as ground rents, that the right of purchase is given in the Bill.

However, as a result of the deliberations on this particular subject in Dáil Éireann I have some doubt as to whether these definitions do adequately describe the persons with the "bricks and mortar" interest and I have asked the Landlord and Tenant Commission, who are now sitting, to examine the matter with a view to seeing if persons other than those described as building and proprietary lessees should have this right. I may add that I do not think that the deliberations which the Commission will have on this matter need inhibit discussion of it in this House nor, on the other hand, that the enactment of this Bill in its present form need inhibit any action which we should take on the recommendations which the Commission may have at a later date.

Perhaps the next most important question arising under the Bill is "How much will the lessee have to pay for his fee simple?" The procedure envisaged in the Bill is that in most cases the parties will agree. In default of such agreement either party may apply to the county registrar who is empowered to arbitrate on this, as well as on a number of matters. In certain cases the sum which the arbitrator would award is subject to a maximum which I have already mentioned and which at the present moment would work out at about 14.8 times the rent. The maximum applies only to premises not used for business purposes, although the latter have the general right to buy the fee simple, and where the land going with the house does not exceed one acre and the lease has 25 years or more to run.

The reason for limiting the application of the maximum purchase price in this way is that the maximum would not be appropriate in the case of business property, houses with extensive lands or houses held on leases of which only a short term remains unexpired. I am satisfied that in these cases it is more just to allow the parties concerned, and the arbitrator in default of agreement between them, to settle the price having regard to the real values to both parties concerned of their respective interests.

On the question of the purchase price generally, the Bill differs somewhat from the recommendations of the Commission. The Commission suggested a number of criteria which should be considered in deciding upon the purchase price, the main one being that the price should be what a willing purchaser would pay and a willing vendor accept for the interest. They rejected the idea that the price should be related to a specific number of years purchase as this must inevitably, in certain cases, be unjust either to the landlord or to the tenant.

I have accepted that a purchase price related in all cases to a specific number of years purchase, say, 12 years purchase or 15 years purchase, would, if applied in all cases, lead to injustices. However, I have been strongly of opinion that the absence of some clear indication to prospective purchasers as to what the price should be would be a defect in the legislation. It would lead to uncertainty and this could deter many leaseholders from availing themselves of the facilities to be given in the Bill. It would also tend to encourage litigation and increase costs.

Senators will appreciate that when drawing up the provision for the maximum purchase price it was necessary to ensure that there would be no confiscation of the landlord's interest. The relationship between that price and the yield from the most recent National Loan should ensure that landlords, whose interests are being compulsorily acquired, will be able to maintain their incomes.

This question of maintaining the landlord's income is one which, I think, we must approach with considerable care. I feel very strongly that any measure of this kind which affects basic rights to property should be the subject of very careful consideration and that we have the duty to make sure, by careful examination of such measures and by the diligent exercise of our parliamentary functions, that justice is done to all sides. I think that this is particularly true in a measure, such as this Bill, because it deals with a subject which has been of emotional significance for a number of years.

I think it fair to say that many people who talk about ground rents speak about them emotionally and that, in the heat of such emotion, some are inclined to dismiss lightly the property rights of the landlord. It is well to remember that ground rents have become an indigenous part of the business life of this country, no matter how anachronistic we may regard them. It is also well to remember that a large number of landlords whose source of income is being compulsorily acquired under this Bill may be trustees of a charity or policy holders in an insurance company. Any inadequate provision for a purchase price of the fee simple could result in a drop in that income. This could have serious financial results not only in relation to the reduced income but also in relation to a drop in the value of the assets of such persons or institutions which would inevitably follow.

The necessity to pay the landlord full compensation for the interest which is being acquired, however, raises the question whether or not the tenant will be able to afford to buy out the fee simple at all. This is particularly relevant when one considers that there will be costs involved and that these costs will be payable by the lessee. Because of the infinite variety of leasehold interests which may be involved, it is very difficult to say what the general level of costs will be in addition to the purchase price. Senators will be aware of cases where title may be particularly difficult and where there are a large number of intervening interests between that of the purchasing lessee and that of the ground landlord. In such a case costs will, of necessity, be greater than in the ordinary case. In the ordinary cases, which will include almost all suburban dwelling houses, the title will be comparatively simple as the lessee may hold direct from the ground landlord. These costs should not be a problem.

I have been greatly concerned about the possible effects of such costs on the exercise of the rights to be given under the Bill, and I have tried to ensure that the costs be kept to a very minimum. Only reasonable costs actually and necessarily incurred in the conveyance will be payable. Where the lessee thinks these costs are unreasonable, he may apply to the county registrar. The latter may award costs against any party who has been unreasonable. When it comes to a dispute before the county registrar, the provisions in the Bill also seek to ensure that costs will be kept to an absolute minimum. The provision of a maximum purchase price should help to minimise the number of cases which will come before the county registrar: but, when a case does go to arbitration, the system provided is a relatively simple and inexpensive one.

There remain the miscellaneous amendments to the existing landlord and tenant law proposed in the Bill. These are more or less detailed and technical matters which are, perhaps, more appropriate for discussion on the Committee Stage of the Bill. However, perhaps I should just mention two of them at this stage. I have already referred to the more important one which proposes to reduce the rent payable, when a lease is being renewed under the 1958 Act, from one-sixth of the gross rent, as defined in that Act, to one-eighth of that rent. The other amendment proposes to give tenants still further relief to that contained in the 1958 Act in respect of restrictive covenants. The effect of this latter amendment will be to remove from the sphere of the landlord's control all changes of user and all minor improvements, provided that these are already subject to planning control. There is also a prohibition on the landlord's making a charge for relaxing a covenant as to user.

Possibly the only other matter which Senators may be concerned about at this stage is the question of what happens to restrictive convenants after the lessee buys out the fee simple. The Ground Rents Commission recommended that convenants protecting the amenities of a district should run with the land following purchase and should be enforceable by the planning authorities and by the former landlord where he retains property in the vicinity. My approach to the subject is governed by my general attitude to the leasehold system which I have already mentioned.

The planning authorities have, under existing legislation, sufficient powers to achieve the desired measure of control formerly exercised by means of restrictive convenants and it is more in keeping with modern social thinking that they, rather than private landlords, should exercise this control. For that reason I consider that specific provision enabling the local authority to enforce these covenants would be superfluous. I also believe that making former landlords responsible for the enforcement of the covenants would be ineffectual and would, in most cases, be unwelcome to the landlords. Accordingly the provision in the Bill reflects my belief that on purchase of the fee simple the tenant should be given the greatest possible measure of freedom from these covenants.

Senators will note that at section 31 of the Bill certain exceptions are made to this rule. The covenants which will survive purchase are those which protect the lessor's own personal amenities or which the lessor requires in order to enable him to comply with a statutory liability and also those covenants as to rights of way, rights of drainage or other rights which are required to secure the development of land. On a close examination of the type of covenants which are referred to in this section it will be seen that they differ fundamentally from the ordinary covenants designed to protect the general amenities of a neighbourhood; for one thing, they are all covenants which cannot be catered for by planning control. The ordinary type of covenant, restricting or prohibiting change of user or the carrying out of alterations or further building, will in future be a matter for the planning authority. When the tenant buys out his fee simple, the covenants will not run with the land.

In conclusion, I should like to repeat how pleased I am to bring before the Seanad a Bill which marks what is, perhaps, a fundamental step in the development of landlord and tenant law. I look forward to having a very useful discussion of the detailed proposals in it when we are at the Committee Stage. In the Dáil I paid a tribute to the great work which has been done by Judge Conroy and the members of the Ground Rents Commission in the investigation of the problems which this Bill seeks to solve. I should like to repeat that tribute here and to say how valuable it has been to have a report of a Commission representing so many different interests and outlooks which, despite the many difficulties of the problems involved, were able to recommend unanimously in favour of giving the rights covered in this Bill to leaseholders. Once more I wish to express my appreciation of their services. I am sure that all Senators will join with me in doing so.

The Minister is quite right in saying that we shall all join with him in expressing our appreciation of and thanks to the learned Chairman who sat on the Ground Rents Commission and to the other members of the Commission. The work of the Commission provides the base for the introduction of this Bill. We can all rejoice on this happy occasion.

I do not believe that there will be any disagreement in this House with what is proposed to be done in the Bill. There may be some slight disagreement — indeed the Minister anticipates that—as to the ways of assessing it. May I say straight away how pleased I am at the Minister's announcement, in view of the announcement made by another Minister here, that he would be delighted to consider any amendments which the House may make? I think the House and the Minister have happy relations in regard to amending Bills. I hope those happy relations will continue— I have no doubt they will—in regard to this particular Bill.

It is true to say that this Bill does for urban and town dwellers what was done and achieved by Davitt in the Land League for the rural people of Ireland. This Bill is redolent of the phrase: "The land for the people." It will give to people mastery of their own dwellings and will enable them to have that security of tenure which up to now they have not enjoyed because of the possibility always that a breach of covenant would work a forfeiture of their lease. That old threat has hung over a great many people and it is a matter to which I shall refer later on.

This Bill provides fixity of tenure which makes a man's home truly his own castle and for that reason we must all welcome it. It is true to say that every political Party in the Seanad and indeed probably every individual Senator has been advocating the abolition of ground rents for quite a long period. The Commission were established in December, 1961. I am happy to think we anticipated the establishment of that Commission in our own political programme for the general election of September, 1961, when we advocated the abolition, as it was called, of ground rents on terms fair to the landlord and to the tenant. I believe the Labour Party have actually been advocating the abolition of ground rents for as long as the rest of us. Indeed, we have all advocated the abolition of ground rents for very many years.

The method of compensating people has been fairly worked out. There is a certain abhorrence of taking away from people rights which they have and which they are entitled to have. The relationship of the ground rent to the yield from the latest National Loan is a fairly happy one. It certainly enables anybody, at a particular time, to calculate what it will cost him, if he wants to buy out his ground rent, as far as the capital sum is concerned. I hope that the Bill will not prove to be defective in this respect for few people will have the necessary capital to enable them to buy out the ground rent. I hope, in fact, landlords will co-operate in selling their ground rents and that it may be possible to buy these out by paying a double rent over a short period of years in order to discharge the ground rent.

The Minister indicated that it is desirable to keep down the legal costs involved as much as possible. Indeed, anybody who examines the titles of leasehold properties, the number of changes that take place and the involvement of trusts and various interests in leaseholds in the same way as other property will readily appreciate that costs of investigating title can very often be much more than the capital sum involved in the case of the ground rent itself. I hope some procedure may be devised where there need only be one investigation of title to property that the costs of the investigation may be shared in some way among the other persons equally interested in buying out. It would be unfortunate that an individual should have to investigate who is entitled to receive the capital sum paid in discharge of the ground rent and that the costs should have to be borne solely by him and that other people can walk in to reap the benefit of the costs that he has undertaken.

I hope it will be possible to provide in this Bill that ground landlords will be obliged to make available the fullest possible information to any of their tenants in order that the costs of the fee simple can be shared by all the tenants. I do not think there is anything like that in the Bill at the present, but I hope we can impose an obligation on landlords to make the fullest possible information available. I am thinking of the older estates where one or two or three can organise for all the other tenants and in that way can have the costs of acquisition shared. There should be an obligation on the ground landlord, or his agent, to say who his tenants are so that costs are shared and that the costs will not be so prohibitive to prevent tenants availing themselves of this legislation.

The Minister was asked in the Dáil whether the Bill in the form it will take for determining who is entitled to what interest was constitutional and he expressed the view that it was. I am inclined to think anything nowadays is constitutional after the famous decision on drunken driving. When drunken driving is classed as a minor offence anything can be passed as constitutional.

I shall not concern myself with the constitutionality of the Bill now. That can be dealt with on Committee Stage. I think there is a defect in the Bill and perhaps the Minister will further examine this before we pass it. I am thinking of the position of county registrars. Most of the city of Dublin is held under building leases where ground rent is payable. It is quite impossible to think that the county registrar for the county of Dublin, who has three circuit courts to deal with and who is also registrar of the Central Criminal Court, will have time to arbitrate and adjudicate on the matters that will be referred to him under this Bill. The county registrar concerned will not be able to do this and he will not be able to delegate this quasijudicial responsibility to any subordinate official. Actually for the city of Dublin, where there are three circuit court judges, it might be better to allocate this work to the third circuit court judge, who is now practically all the time sitting in one of those circuit courts.

There is another practical difficulty I can see. You can have a county registrar who is himself a ground landlord and the determination of who is entitled to what rests with the county registrar. Therefore, if somebody is buying out his ground rent from the county registrar and a question arises to be determined by the county registrar, for example who is the owner, whether he is a trustee or one of three joint owners of the property, for that particular kind of case there is no provision in the Bill in relation to an alternative hearing by another county registrar.

In the case of judges not uncommonly it happens that a circuit court judge has to deal with a matter where a personal friend or a member of his family is involved but he can always apply for the nomination of another judge. That cannot be done in the case of the county registrar. As I read the Bill, the only county registrar that has jurisdiction in relation to, say, County Mayo, is the county registrar in County Mayo and he cannot ask the county registrar in County Galway to arbitrate on a matter in which he might be personally involved. That is a difficulty that has to be got over.

County registrars who are involved in court proceedings in the compilation of the electoral lists, who hold divisional courts and who in between times when courts are not sitting have to deal with taxing of costs, who have to hold inquiries into administration suits, and things of that kind, will not have time to deal with the disputes referred to them for their determination and arbitration.

The next step is that we will have to appoint assistant county registrars. I do not think that it is desirable to increase staff in that way. It would be better if these matters were referred either to the district court or the circuit court. They should be employed to deal with these matters in the summary kind of way that it is proposed in the Bill should be followed before the county registrars themselves. That is a matter that has to be gone into at a later stage.

I would have hoped that in a Bill of this kind it might have been possible to devise by way of schedule to the Bill or otherwise a simple conveyance which would enable a landlord to release his interest in a property to the acquiring tenant and that a simple form of conveyance would be readily available and have the sanction of statute for its effect. I do not know whether the Minister has considered anything of that kind. I am also wondering whether or not where a matter has been investigated by a county registrar and then appealed to the circuit court the court should be empowered to vest the property in the tenant. It would be speedier than drafting a deed, stamping and sending it out to the Land Registry or Registry of Deeds, and so on. A simple vesting order, as is provided in certain cases under the Trustee Acts, would be sufficient.

I wonder whether the Minister would consider providing what I might call a "parliamentary conveyance" of the property so that it would vest the fee simple in the acquiring tenant simply by virtue of a particular section of this Bill. I think that would go some small distance towards reducing costs. I can foresee that in some cases there will be a tremendous amount of work in trying to ascertain who are entitled to the capital sum which the tenant will have to pay and in some cases it may result in there being a considerable lapse of time before a tenant can acquire fee simple. When I was thinking about this problem, long before this Bill saw the light of day, I wondered whether or not the procedure adopted by the Hogan Land Act of 1923 could not be applied and that indeed the machinery of the Land Commission which vested the fee simple of the tenanted land of this country would not be employed here and that the fee simple would have been vested in the Land Commission and that that machinery would have been availed of to vest the fee simple afterwards in the acquiring tenants when the title had been investigated.

As I understand it, the Land Commission is a temporary body and one would hope that it was coming to the end of its work. I think it is true that the Land Commission have vested the fee simple in tenants in quite a number of counties. The work of the Land Commission on that side is diminishing as the years pass. At least the volume of work remaining to be completed is diminishing—I do not wish to suggest that the volume of activity of the Land Commission staff is in any way diminishing; far be it from me to make such an accusation—but the volume of work waiting to be done is diminishing. I would have hoped the Minister might have this under consideration so that the Land Commission experience and procedure could have been harnessed to this great project and do for urban dwellers in the main what has already been done for rural Ireland, with the exception, of course, that it would not be necessary to provide the kind of funds for the buying out of ground rents as was necessary in the case of the buying out of the landlords' interests under the various Land Acts that have been passed by this and previous legislatures. However, I hope something can be done and if necessary we might incorporate some kind of section into the Bill, subject to what the Minister has to say in concluding the debate, to enable people who may be in difficulties to get the widest possible information and help so that the cost of acquiring the fee simple will be reduced as far as that is practicable.

The Minister referred to certain sections of the Bill which will continue certain restrictive covenants in different kinds of leases after the fee simple has been acquired by the tenant. These sections are confined to the restrictive covenants only where the landlord has property in the immediate vicinity of a tenant who is buying out his ground rent. I think that does not go quite far enough, notwithstanding the fact that development can only take place with the approval of the planning authority because when I think of what planning authorities approve of and when I hear the kind of thing planning authorities have approved, I am filled with apprehension of the kind of things that will be permitted to be done, the loss of amenity value which people have paid and often paid dearly for when buying.

I think it is common knowledge that in one town in Monaghan the planning authority refused permission or perhaps granted permission but in either event there was an appeal to the Minister for Local Government to build some kind of hen house in the middle of an urban area, not a small hen house but a large-scale place for 1,000 or 1,500 birds. Eventually the appeal came before the Minister for Local Government and here we can be certain where responsibility lies. Permission was given for the building in the middle of a residential and business area, of a poultry station. There were comments on it in the press at the time.

The Mayo County Council, as the planning authority for County Mayo, permitted the spoliation of the one thing that Castlebar had to boast of— that is the green that lies before the old County Hospital. The county council which itself is a planning authority, with, I suppose, the consent of the urban council—the same county manager is executive for both planning authorities—filled the site of the old hospital with rusted road machinery, caravans lying at a crazy angle, road materials, barrows and that kind of thing. When I see planning authorities doing that kind of thing, I am filled with apprehension at vesting in them the exercise of the powers of discretion or restriction that were formerly reserved to a landlord.

I can think of a particular case where planning permission was given recently in the Dún Laoghaire-Killiney area to build a house right beside an old monument. It was one of those monuments that would be preserved by the Board of Works. The permission was given to the complete detriment of the value of that as an old monument. I think An Taisce, the foundation which looks after the preservation of those kind of things, was in on the appeal to the Minister for Local Government. The permission was granted. I say this entirely in sorrow and not in any spiteful or vindictive way. I do not think planning authorities have the same kind of sensitivity to amenity values that the individual landlord had in times past. Planning authorities, I am afraid, are often subject to representations by people who want to sell a site to allow a bungalow or a house to be built. If planning permission is not given to an individual, it is represented £500 perhaps goes down the drain. The real truth is that he cannot get this £500 because of the juxtaposition of the building to an old monument or because of the amenity which not building on it requires to be and in the nature of things should be preserved.

I feel that if the Bill must be in this way and if it must be left to the planning authorities to preserve these amenities the Minister will have to consult with the Minister for Local Government and some of the other bodies around the country interested in preserving the beauty of the country and in preserving amenities. Planning authorities will have to be given some kind of a grounding in dealing with the kind of thing I am talking about. I can give other examples of it which occur from time to time.

I remember Senator Stanford here in debates in former times regretted the disappearance of some beautiful window in the vicinity of this building. That was done by the Board of Works who, I must say, are much more sensitive about the preservation of things of that kind. I am not at all happy that this authority should be vested solely in the development authority, or merely in the landlord when he has property in the vicinity. Where there have been mutual covenants by different owners of property not to do certain things, once a landlord passes out of it, the mutual covenantors should be entitled, equally with the landlord, to the user of the property in the way it was prohibited or restricted by the covenants in the lease of the person seeking to use the property in a particular way.

The Minister might well consider going that bit further so as to enable the next-door neighbour to prevent somebody—he may get permission from the planning authority—destroying a particular view or removing trees or something like that he had paid for when he bought his house. He should be able to say: "They are there and cannot be cut down or I am going to have the benefit of this view" of a mountain, the sea, or something of that kind. When a person buys property with those amenities, I think he should be in a position to lodge an objection. I will go the distance of saying he should be entitled to preserve those amenities or that those amenities should be preserved by the planning authority, unless the persons for whom the covenants were intended to benefit consent to the removal of the restriction. These are matters requiring somewhat more detailed consideration on Committee Stage and I think the Minister has said that the Bill is mainly one for Committee Stage.

I should like to turn now to what I consider to be a major defect in this Bill. It is right and proper that we should enable people to acquire the fee simple in their property and buy out their ground rents but, if we do that, it seems to me at any rate inconsistent, if not indeed a bit silly, to say we are going to do nothing to prevent the creation of ground rents in the future. I think I am right in saying that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent the creation of ground rents in the future. I take it that is correct?

It is, yes.

Surprisingly enough, the Commission on Ground Rents considered this matter. They agreed that ground rents should not be permitted to be created in future but they could not devise machinery, oddly enough, to prevent that from being done. I have no doubt the Minister will, in dealing with this, say that the creation of ground rents is an incentive to develop land for the purpose of housing, and generally for the purpose of developing land. I do not think that is so, if one has regard to the penal—I can only call them "penal"—provisions contained in the Income Tax Acts in relation to the creation of ground rents. If a man creates a ground rent of £15, he pays income tax, in the first year, upon the capitalised value of the £15, as income. He is deemed, we will say, to have created an asset, over ten years purchase, worth £150. He pays income tax on £150 the first year the ground rent is created and also on the £15; and on the £15 every year after that.

Unless one is outside the scope of the Income Tax Acts, it seems to me that the creation of ground rents provides no incentive to development. Why the building industry has put up with what I regard as a monstrous iniquity in the Income Tax Acts—to pay on the capitalised value the first year and, thereafter, on the annual ground rent—and have never succeeded in persuading the Minister for Finance to abolish that monstrous iniquity I do not understand. I would have thought that the Builders Federation would have got that iniquity done away with long ago, and which I think arises merely upon the Revenue's interpretation of different provisions of the Income Tax Acts. From that point of view, I think the creation of ground rents is not a great incentive. The real incentives at the present time, of course, in the development of land are the tremendous site fines charged. I remember when I started off and bought a house, at that time the fine on the site on ordinary estates was about £150; they are three, four and five times that at the present time. This is where I think this Bill is defective. This Bill should at once prevent the creation of ground rents in the future. I think the Government should go a further step—and this I advocate—and say: "we will control speculation in land for building purposes". That is the logical way of dealing with any adverse effect which it might be anticipated the abolition of the creation of ground rents would have upon the provision of building land.

To my mind, the cost of land, for building purposes, at present is outrageously high and has, probably, risen proportionately far higher than any other commodity on sale in this country over the past ten years. That should not be permitted to continue. I think Part VII of the Finance Act, 1965, was designed to take off some of the huge profits being created by speculators in building land but I would prefer to deal with it in another way. I would prefer to prevent speculation in building land for houses, and I can justify that straight away. I think any Government can justify it by saying that this land for housing is an essential; is as much an essential, I submit, as the other things we controlled by the Prices Stabilisation Bill which was enacted in 1965. Certainly, it is a necessity for the building of houses. I think the Government should go that further step and say: "We will control speculation", and Part VII could then virtually wither away. I think it is a bad piece of finance legislation in many ways. I do not want to deal with that on this Bill but I think that is what ought to be done.

It is not logical to say: "We will enable people to buy out their ground rents because we consider it a highly desirable thing to do." Socially, it is a very desirable thing that people should become the fullest possible owners of the houses in which they live, free from the antediluvian and antiquated restrictions to which I intend to refer in a moment. They should be free from those restrictions and should have the largest possible property right in their dwellinghouses and shops: it is illogical to say it is highly desirable to enable people to acquire the fee simple in their property and, at the same time, let this other thing go on. I should like to hear the Minister on that. It might be that we will not be able to deal with this in this particular Bill—that it might require some further thought—but I should like to know what other problems have turned up; what way the Minister's mind is working and whether it is intended to prevent the creation of ground rents in the future. But I do not think one can do that without introducing some legislation in order to stabilise the price of land for building purposes. I should say that, of course, in doing that, we are not doing anything extraordinary.

I cannot think of the particular Act, but there is old legislation which enabled people long ago to enlarge a long term at a nominal rent into fee simple. I do not think it had any adverse effect on the supply of land. This legislation has that precedent passed by the British Parliament, and it seems right and proper that we should discourage and, in fact, prohibit the creation of ground rents which I do not think make any contribution to the provision of an adequate number of sites on land for housing purposes.

There is another matter to which I wish to refer. I do not know whether the Minister has adverted to it. It seems to me that there are in the landlord and tenant legislation of this country at present provisions which are monstrously oppressive to tenants. I am referring to the provision in the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1860, which provides that if a tenant without the written consent of his landlord assigns, sublets or subdivides his property he forfeits his lease. The effect is that the landlord can come into court, produce his lease prohibiting subdivision without consent, and then he is entitled to and must get and does get an order from the court ejecting the person who has assigned without permission.

The landlord may have known about this for 20, 30 or 40 years, and one would have thought that there would be acquiescence by time, but it does not work that way. It is a continuing breach of covenant every day it happens, and there is on record a case where the landlord himself in some way had come into possession of the tenant's interest and sold it to another person who became his tenant again, and was then able to eject that tenant after having got £3,000 or £4,000 from him. Legislation of that kind is monstrously oppressive. Subdivision or assigning of property without the consent of the landlord in a great many cases does not injure the landlord's interest by one halfpenny, but that is technically the position under the 1860 Act, and it is time, 106 years later, to have a look at that and to remove that monstrously oppressive provision from the Statute Book.

It is very difficult at times to know whether one is within Standing Orders in putting down amendments like this, but I hope that if such an amendment is put down the Minister would be disposed to deal with it.

The Commission set up recently are looking at that problem, and I can assure the Senator that I share his concern on this matter very much.

I have been looking at the terms of the Commission which the Minister recently established and I hope that this is within the terms of reference. To use a Ministerial expression, I am advised that it is not.

I am advised that it is not, but in any event I do not think that we ought to wait for the report of the Commission, which will be very industrious so that it will be two or three years before they report and another year or two before a Bill emerges, to remove monstrously oppressive provisions of that kind from the Statute Book. I would hope that it might be possible for the Minister to be agreeable, once he has changed the title of the Bill from the Landlord and Tenant Bill to the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Bill, to changing it back to Landlord and Tenant Bill, which would be far better to enable amendments of this kind to be introduced at the earliest possible time.

That perhaps is a matter for the Committee Stage. I do regret that once the Minister was dealing with restrictive convenants under different leases in the Bill he did not avail himself of the opportunity of dealing with that kind of restriction to be found in our statutory law.

In conclusion, I am glad that the Minister has an open mind upon ways and means, but I hope it will be possible to effect some worthwhile amendments along the lines which I have indicated and that we can as far as possible co-operate in sending this Bill from Seanad Éireann in a better form than that in which it has come in. I trust that the acting Leader of the House will agree that a Bill of this kind requires some more time for consideration than the normal type of Bill and that that can be arranged in due course.

I should like to give a moderate welcome to this Bill for want of a better one. I should like to see a more radical approach to this whole problem but I am pleased, nevertheless, to welcome an approach after, as Senator O'Quigley has said, long years of apparently general agreement that we should abolish ground rents. I know that as far back as a quarter of a century ago the Labour Party were in favour of abolishing ground rents. I think that the conversion to this point of view of Fine Gael is a little bit more recent and that perhaps both these Parties should recognise that it is in fact Fianna Fáil that is actually taking steps to abolish ground rents although Fine Gael and the Labour Party were a year in power on two occasions. It is a pity that they did not then take the opportunity now being taken to tackle the problem.

I recognise that it is not by any means an easy problem to tackle. Personally, I think that, since the value of building land depends very largely upon community developments in a community context whether in town or country, the land as a whole should be nationalised and either the State or the municipality should be the ground landlord, if you like, for land of all kinds. Such a proposal is being considered in the United Kingdom at the moment and I feel that it is towards this that we will eventually move. I also feel that if the State or the municipality were to be the ground landlord for all building land a great number of our problems about unearned increments and about enhanced values of land due to community effort would be avoided. Nowadays when improvements are brought about by a local authority very often they bring with them also an immense rise in the value of all the private land surrounding that improved area. Although the enhanced value is publicly created the increased price and profit is privately raked in. This is something which I deplore and feel should be faced, but I am afraid that a Bill like this, well intentioned as it is, does not, in fact, attempt to cope with it.

A point was well made by the Minister when he said that the landlord system has facilitated good estate management and proper development and maintenance of property. This seems to be a generous tribute on the part of the Minister, not to all landlords, but to certain landlords, who in the history of this country were good and were preoccupied to preserve amenities and, as the Minister says, and I quote: "Particularly in Dublin, some of the most attractive squares and public places owe their continued existence to this system".

I share the fears of Senator O'Quigley in this matter. It causes a little pain perhaps to say so, but some of the public spirited landlords of days gone by—they were not by any means all public spirited—succeeded in having covenants and restrictions to maintain amenities such as the attractive squares and public places to which the Minister referred. Some of them apparently had a far greater social conscience or artistic sense or sensitivity than the planning authorities have now.

I share the fears of Senator O'Quigley that if we simply hand over to the planning authorities the restrictions which now obtain, we may find that they are not sufficiently fussy. I would give as an example of that, that in Dublin and outside Dublin the real test has been not whether an amenity or a beauty is being destroyed, but whether the destruction will bring in money. That is always the test. It was in the case of Whiddy Island and Fitzwilliam Street. That is the test which is being applied. If we look at O'Connell Street today, at the advertising matter, at the garish vulgarity of O'Connell Street today, we must recognise that the planning authorities do not really warrant our confidence, as it were. Therefore, I would hesitate to support the Minister's view that the transferring of the restrictions on certain ground rents to our local authorities and planning authorities will in itself be sufficient. The Minister is aware of that problem and I should like to hear a further comment from him on it.

I notice the Minister mentioned that the maximum price for ground rents might work out at present as something like 14.8 times the rent. It would not always be as much as that but it might be as much as that. He said elsewhere in his opening remarks that the question of maintaining the landlord's income is one of the most important considerations. I feel that 14.8 times the rent is too high. In almost all cases large sums of money have already been derived from ground rents. Therefore, the landlords might be called upon to make a certain sacrifice. I know I will be told that all landlords are widows and orphans, but I am afraid I do not really accept that very seriously.

Senator O'Quigley made a point which must be considered, and faced, and dealt with, about the possible creation of new ground rents. After all, if we are introducing a Bill for the purpose of abolishing ground rents, we must make some provision to ensure that fresh ones will not be created. We are all familiar with the speculative builder who sells a whole range of 100 houses or so for £1,500, £2,000 or £2,500 each, and then slaps on to that quite an arbitrary ground rent, which he takes out of his head, of £15 or £20 a year. This creation out of nothing, as it were, of a permanent ground rent to be paid by a person who is thinking of himself as having bought his house, has been a scandal for a long time. This Bill or some Bill must really face the fact that not merely are we in favour of allowing ground rents that exist to be abolished, but that we must prevent new ones being created. As Senator O'Quigley pointed out, it may not be possible to deal with that matter in this Bill but the point should be considered and made.

The final point I want to make is in reference to the planning authorities again. In his opening remarks the Minister said that under existing legislation the planning authorities have sufficient powers to achieve the desired measure of control. The query which arises is: do they use those powers properly? Are they sufficiently concerned? I do not doubt that they have sufficient powers, but I think they are not always invoked. What happened in Killiney and in the other cases mentioned already by Senator O'Quigley was that they had the powers but they did not act. I feel that the money god, and the money principle, will be the main factor in most decisions of the planning authorities, and, therefore, it is not enough to say that they have sufficient powers. We must take some steps to see that their powers are effectively used.

I am glad to see legislation of this kind for the purpose of allowing people to buy their houses, to acquire a fee simple interest in their houses. I feel that in a sense the problem is being tackled in the wrong way, instead of recognising that a lot of the value is community created and should not, therefore, give rise to profit. I also feel that the rate of repayments to the landlords is too high. With these reservations, I think the Bill is going in the right direction and should, therefore, be welcomed.

I, too, am glad to welcome this Bill. I am particularly interested in a point which was raised in the Dáil, to which I did not see the Minister's reply. I have in mind the point referred to by Senator Sheehy Skeffington about the excessive ground rents put on houses in recent years, where the holder of a house on about one-eighth of an acre, has to pay upwards of £15 per year.

The arrangements for purchasing these ground rents are not really very fair to people who have been paying excessive ground rents for a long time. Some regard should be had to the amount already paid by the tenant. I know the Bill fixes a maximum figure and leaves the tenant free to negotiate for a lower figure, but I am afraid that the chances of getting a lower rate are very remote. I would ask the Minister to have another look at cases where quite ordinary people are faced with another rent for something which gives them no rights whatever, and gives them no privileges of which I know.

To take my own case. I have paid the sum of £225 in ground rent over the past 15 years. To buy out my garden —I suppose it is the usual one-eighth of an acre—I would now have to pay an additional sum of approximately £215, to shake myself free from a ground landlord who does nothing at all for me. If I inform him that I am considering making some small alteration, for which the county council has inspected the plans and given permission, free of charge, he sends a representative and presents me with a bill for anything from seven guineas upwards, payable even though I did not proceed with the project.

Pay him nothing.

I submit some reduction should be given where ground rents are over high and where the tenant has already paid a sum which would more than pay to the landlord an income of the yearly ground rent were it paid into the last National Loan. The ground landlord in my case and in hundreds of other cases is not a widow or an orphan but a very wealthy insurance company. One-eighth of an acre would in my case cost about £450, which works out at £3,600 an acre. I do not think anyone will suggest that is a very low rent for ground that up to the time it was built on was grazing land. I, therefore, ask the Minister to do something that will give better terms to those who have paid during the years considerable sums for the ground on which their houses stand.

Though I am certainly not against the Bill, I have considerable doubt about the necessity for it. I believe the Bill was brought in principally because of the agitation that has gone on during the years, which reared its head every few years, for the abolition of ground rents. To my mind, this demand is very largely an emotional one. People who discuss this, people who put forward the demand, inevitably talk about absentee landlords and it is quite obvious they are thinking in terms of landlords who acquired the land some time before we got our independence and who got huge sums from the land, went back to England and have no right, never had, to the land. Consequently, the demand is largely an emotional one.

Most ground landlords at present are not absentee landlords. Most of them are, in fact, institutions who in turn are owned by shareholders. Therefore, it is not a question of some rack-renting landlords making huge sums in an invalid and unjust way. However, I am not against the Bill. I believe it is just as well that, having had this demand so often, we should bring in a Bill of this kind and let the matter be dealt with in a reasonable way. I believe that, having brought the Bill in, very few people will avail of it. I think that the people who demanded it and complained about the position for many years, will not avail of it when it becomes an Act. During the next five years I shall be very surprised indeed if 5 per cent of the people who could acquire the fee simple of their premises will do so.

Perhaps because the price is too high.

From their point of view.

(Longford): Why do more people not buy out their land from the Land Commission?

I believe very few people will buy the land at the price mentioned in this Bill or indeed at any price approaching it. Of course, the fact that they will be able to acquire the fee simple if they wish to do so will be a very comforting feeling and will probably meet the situation almost entirely because if a person feels that if he wants to he can but the land it will give him the necessary feeling of comfort and will cost him far less.

From that point of view some good will come from the Bill and I do not think that the problem Senator O'Quigley prophesied, of the County Registrar in Dublin being inundated with work to arbitrate what the proper price should be, will arise. However, I have qualifications about the Bill. For instance, I am afraid that the condition of property and the amenities of certain neighbourhoods will suffer through the powers made available in the Bill. Normally, a landlord had restrictive convenants in the lease and could thereby prevent a tenant from doing certain things with his house. Naturally, the tenant resented this: he resented the fact that he could not do certain things with his house but always he was glad or should have been glad of the fact that his neighbour could not do the kind of things the neighbour wanted to do. Consequently, these restrictive convenants, though very irksome as far as tenants were concerned, were very useful and beneficial from the point of view of houses and the streets around them.

Many of the best kept areas in the city—the best streets, the best premises —are in the condition they are today because the landlords had restrictive covenants and insisted that the property was kept in a certain way and that alterations were not made to the detriment of the premises or the neighbourhood. Though many people do not seem to realise this or appreciate it, it was of immense benefit to the tenants concerned.

With this Bill, I am afraid the position will deteriorate. I fear that under the Bill, if one's neighbour acquires the fee simple, he will start a petrol station, possibly, or a cement block industry or some other kind of factory giving off offensive fumes or offensive noises and there would be nothing to prevent him doing that. I think that many people who probably were in favour of the Bill, if they find themselves living beside a person who has acquired the fee simple and who changes his house and brings in developments of the kinds I have mentioned, will be very sorry the Bill went through.

It was contemplated at one time that the powers held by the landlord should be transferred to the local authorities through the Department of Local Government but the Department of Local Government would not accept the responsibility. It is understandable that they objected to the prospect of having to take on such responsibility because it would put a great deal of extra work on them. However, these restrictions will now disappear except in a very limited way: the only thing that will remain to prevent very radical changes in premises and very radical interference with amenities in neighbourhoods will be the powers held by local authorities under the planning Acts. I am very pessimistic as to the extent to which these powers can be utilised to do what is required of them in the circumstances.

First of all, I do not think the planning powers held by local authorities are sufficient to prevent the type of interference with premises I have mentioned. Secondly, even to the extent to which local authorities have these powers, I do not think they will exercise them: I do not think they will have the staff or the time to be able to exercise them as efficiently and comprehensively as it was possible for landlords to do. Accordingly, to the extent to which the powers given in this Bill will be exercised—I am satisfied it will not be to any great extent— I fear that in many cases there will be a deterioration of the condition of premises in some cases, a deterioration in the amenities of neighbourhoods and a very definite effect on the occupiers of houses nearby.

I may be unduly pessimistic about this. I hope I am but I believe that although this Bill, as I have said, is a good Bill in many ways, it has this possible snag. It has this possible effect which will not be to the benefit of householders. My qualification about giving complete agreement to this Bill is that the satisfaction of those people who will be able to acquire the fee simple of their places, and who do so, will be outweighed by the dissatisfaction of the people who find that their neighbour has availed of this power, and that he is now doing things to his premises which will interfere with the amenities of their own premises.

There are just a few points to which I propose to refer. One point is that mentioned by Senator Miss Davidson as to the amount of ground rents. We should have a proper conception as to how ground rents arise. The builder acquires some property. He has first got to develop the property. The local authority will not take the land over until all the roads are made and brought up to the standard which the local authority requires. The builder must also lay on water, sewerage and so on.

He then builds the houses. It is an accepted custom that, having done so, the builder works out what it cost him to develop the land. He takes a rate of interest on that, be it five per cent or six per cent. He divides that among the number of houses he has built. If there are 100 houses and it costs him £15,000 to develop, he takes portion of the total capital at five per cent or six per cent and divides 100 into that. That is the ground rent on each house. It is not a question of putting the rent on at random at all. That never arises.

When you are about to buy your house you can decide whether you consider the price of the ground rent beyond your means. If it does not suit you, you do not buy the house. I think Senator Miss Davidson is under a misapprehension when she speaks of the amount of ground rents. I would respectfully suggest to her also that she is under a misapprehension when she speaks about the number of years over which the ground rent has been paid. If it costs £300 to develop the site on which my house is built and I am paying £18 a year in ground rent, it does not matter whether I am paying it for one year or 50 years, I still have repaid no portion whatsoever of the capital. It would be well to have the position clear regarding ground rents.

Surely the local authorities do most of the work?

No, they never do it. They will not take over the land until such time as everything is absolutely perfect and finished.

That is included in the price of the house.

Do you not pay a site fee on top of the ground rent?

This is a matter of simple arithmetic. Let us assume I am a builder and that I pay £1,000 per acre for a site. It would be much more in Dublin. I now develop the site and I build a house on it. If it takes one-fifth of an acre on which to build a house that portion would cost £200. The development then costs so much. That is why I pay the ground rent because I could not afford to pay the whole cost of the site. I then pay for the building of my house. That is inevitable practice and procedure.

There are just one or two further points in relation to the Bill which I should like to make. While the Bill undoubtedly in very many instances can be advantageous, it does not take sufficient precaution in the interests of adjoining owners. Where you have a number of houses side by side and you have a common landlord, there are provisions put in the leases that the houses will be properly kept, that they will be properly maintained and that they will be properly insured against fire. If a house is burned down the insurance received must be expended on rebuilding the house and putting it in a proper condition.

Under this Bill, as it stands, let us take the case of a large number of houses. They need not necessarily be terraced. They can be completely detached. Those houses heretofore were all held under leases. Suppose one house is burned down. The person who lives in that house may consider that the sum for which he had the house insured, that is the money which has been allowed to him for the insurance, is more valuable to him than the house formerly had been. If that person does not rebuild the house, you are left with blackened walls and blackened rooms in the middle of that estate. The appearance and the amenities of the adjoining houses are completely destroyed. That person has not broken any regulation of the planning Acts. The house was burned down. The planning Acts relate to additions to premises and extensions of buildings. They do not relate to the user of a building.

Again, let us take the case of a large number of houses which were formerly held under lease. After living in a house, a person decides to use it in a particular way. The house may be used as a gaming house of some kind. It will eventually be allowed to fall into ruin. It will be used for purposes which certainly are not conducive to the comfort of that man's neighbours. The structure of the house has in no way been altered. I cannot see what a planning authority can do in those circumstances. Therefore, while I welcome the Bill, I personally feel that there is one weakness in it. It does not provide sufficient protection for other people in the locality in regard to amenities where a house is bought out under the Bill. It is unfortunate that there is no such provision. I wonder whether it is possible to alter the Bill in order to provide for this?

There is just one section to which I should like to refer in detail and that is section 32. Heretofore, and down through the years in an ordinary case of letting should you rent a house from anybody the rule of law was that the tenant or whoever takes the letting must pay all the legal costs of the landlord. There is no justification, whatsoever, for that in principle. An attempt is made to rectify that by section 32 which states:

Notwithstanding any rule of law, a party to a lease shall not be under an obligation to pay the solicitor's costs of the lease of any other party to the lease.

That is an attempt to rectify that but I do not think it goes far enough. A lease includes any letting whatever. If you rent a flat that is a lease. It is most unfair in this case that the tenant should heretofore have to pay the landlord's costs. For the future, that section as drafted means that by having an agreement making it part of the tenancy agreement the tenant will pay the landlord's costs. In those days when the demand for flats is growing and buildings fall short of demand those unfortunate tenants or prospective tenants will have little room for argument. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that this section be amended by putting in a proviso to the effect that in no agreement will it be lawful for one party in a lease to have to pay the costs of the other party.

I want to join with the other Members of the House who welcomed the introduction of this Bill. I think all of us can welcome the general principle on which the Bill rests and I should like to go so far as to say that I think the Minister also can be complimented and congratulated on his fortitude in implementing the recommendation of the Commission on this matter. Quite clearly, even from what I heard this evening, there must have been a great deal of opposite views to the recommendation of the Commission.

My criticism, if any, of the Bill is that it does not go far enough. I do not want to repeat some of the contentions that have been put up by other Members but it is quite clear that a person who has held the tenancy of a house—it can only be so described —with a lease which compels him to pay ground rent of £10 to £15 a year for a long period, is not being treated justly, if at the end of that period when he proceeds to buy out, he is expected to pay the actual full market value of the lease as it stands today. There is nothing that can justify that sort of treatment and, quite clearly, I agree with Senator O'Reilly.

If people are to be put out in that particular way under the arbitration process provided under the Bill, a great many will not proceed at all to buy their interests as they should. Some provision should have been made in the Bill at least to deal with that type of case. We have heard a lot about some of us having misapprehension about where we stand on this matter. I am under no misapprehension whatever, and I want to say that my own experience of dealing with ground landlords amounts to this. When I proceeded to negotiate the purchase of my house, I was told I had, first of all, to provide a pretty hefty site fine. I was told it was my contribution towards the cost of the development of the roadways to my house and the laying on of the necessary services. I paid that. I was then told I had to sign a lease which committed me to certain things and also committed my landlord. In the processing of the lease, I was told I had to insure my house. I swallowed that one and then I was told that I had to insure with a particular company. I baulked at that. I said I would choose the company and that I would have it my own way. I had correspondence with the solicitors for the landlords at the time and I told them that if they did not alter their attitude, they could keep their lease. Then I was permitted, with a great reluctance, to decide which company I would place my business with for the remaining time of my occupation of that house.

I want to say that after a period of years, having paid my ground rent, insurance and all the other commitments, I got a letter—in fact, the letter was not even sealed; it was sent by the cheapest method through the post— which was a printed form, informing me that my ground landlord had now sold the ground on which the house stood over my head and had handed over to somebody else and that I would hear from these people in due course. Does anybody suggest that is fair treatment of any tenant?

Senator Nash seems to think that some of us are under a misapprehension about how ground rents arise. I am under no illusion at any rate, but as a matter of interest, it might be no harm to read to the House a comment made by a Deputy in the course of the debate on this Bill in Dáil Éireann. He refers to the particular landlord I had to deal with. On page 827 of volume 222 of 27th April, 1966, he says:

... that there was a gentleman named Strongbow who was the Earl of Pembroke and he had one thing in common with Nelson—he had only one eye. He stood, according to the chronicles, on the hill which is now called Mount Merrion and he was told that, as far as he could see, that land was his. It must have been a wonderful eye because the estate, which still bears his name, mind you, and still works, has property running, if I do not make a mistake, from Bray Head to the middle of North County Dublin.

That is how one of the Members in the other House saw my original landlord, or his successors.

As I have said, I am quite satisfied that the Earl of Pembroke did not spend one brown penny on the development of the land on which my house stands. The development cost was borne by another group who had in turn leased all that land from the Earl of Pembroke and from those it has now passed to another landlord. I am not aware that, in the 15 years I have been in the house at any rate, any one of these landlords has taken the slightest interest in how my house stands, how it has fared and stood up to the weather, or how I am faring. They lose no sleep over me. Having paid the ground rent over the period 15 to 25 years, it is not good enough at this stage, now that I am being provided with the right to buy my house, that I must proceed to go into the ground rent market and be required to pay the ground rent on that value.

I do not think the Bill has done anything in that respect and it should be amended.

As for the other arguments, regarding the danger of over-neglect or abuse in one way or another, I am not impressed. We have the means here within the democratic institutions of the State to see that people are not abused or treated unfairly in that respect. There are lots of things which cannot be done in any event and I am sure a simple enactment either by way of an amendment or an extension of the existing planning authorities' power would be quite capable of dealing with any of these abuses if they should ever occur. I doubt if they will occur. I have not seen them occurring very often in my area and I am there a long time. When there was any danger they were quickly dealt with. I do not think that the way to prevent them is to go on living under the pressure that we have been under with the old ground rents system.

The Minister should be congratulated on this Bill. He has probably brought in the best Bill he could induce the Government to bring in at present. It is a short step but it is a good step. The Minister is going in the right direction and I appeal to him to take his courage in his hands a little further and give us a real right to acquire the land on which our houses are built. We are entitled to it. I do not think that the arguments advanced by people who criticised the Bill in other respects have the slightest justification for what we have been subjected to up to now.

I shall be very brief. I have not had to deal with Strongbow as my ground landlord like Senator Crowley but I suspect that his new ground landlord is also my new ground landlord which fills me with a certain amount of suspicion. We are providing in this Bill for what is called the maximum purchase price of ground rents. I think the maximum will tend to become the common price. It will determine the overall situation certainly in Dublin. I am wondering how it is that a certain assurance company has thought it very prudent in recent years to acquire such a vast amount of ground rents around this city. Has there, in fact, been a leakage or has any assurance been given to this assurance company as to the price which will be now, as the Minister describes it, the maximum price for acquisition?

They will lose money actually.

I wonder very much. This purchase of ground rents has been talked about for a long time. A Labour Deputy, Deputy Seán Dunne, moved a Private Members' Bill in 1961. Subsequently, there was the Commission and the report which is out some time. I forget what year but certainly it is not very new. There probably has been a suspicion in the minds of many people who own ground rents that it might be a good idea to get out of the business and indeed we find that a certain assurance company has come to acquire quite a number of ground rents around the city.

It is the reverse actually. They are getting out of it now.

Like Senator Crowley, I think his new ground landlord is now equally my new ground landlord and Senator Miss Davidson's as well

This brings me to the point of this maximum purchase price which will be, as I said, the common market price. It is far too high. I shall probably return to this on Committee Stage. I urge on the Minister the desirability of looking again at this problem. I know his real concern for the private property owners, the people who own property. I know his concern along these lines but I am talking about the price which we propose in this Bill to put on the occupier, the tenant, to acquire the land on which his house rests. I am concerned about the future. I agree that the person who owns the house should be given the right to acquire or buy the land on which the house rests but I wonder whether we might not be unwittingly creating problems for the people who will come after us. There could conceivably be a situation, even though Senator E. Ryan does not think this will arise, where instead of one ground landlord owning a reasonably big area you could, in 40, 50 or 100 years time, have thousands of ground landlords. These houses will have aged and the property as a whole will need redevelopment. The people who will be facing the problem will have to deal with a multitude of ground landlords. I wonder if the Minister is giving a thought to this problem. I do not know what the solution is——

A difficult one.

It might raise complications for people who come after us. It will make it far more difficult to redevelop property in a proper manner when there is a multitude of ground landlords to deal with.

Nationalise the land.

That, possibly, is the solution but I wonder where the Minister will get the money to do that if he is going to pay out those handsome sums to individual landlords. You could always give them money and then tax them and take it all back. There is nothing new or original about that idea I must confess.

My third point deals with the question of planning authorities. I have a lot of faith in planning authorities. I feel they will be able to protect the amenities of the areas but I am suspicious of the control in the Custom House. I know other Senators and other public representatives have had occasion to complain of the over-ruling of decisions made by planning authorities. Over-ruling, in many cases, related not simply to the merits of the appeal but to the influence that the appellant can bring to bear on the Minister for Local Government. This is not the responsibility of the Minister for Justice, but it is happening wholesale throughout the country. There are cases in which the planning authority has rightly, looking at it from the local interest, refused planning permission for certain things. Then an appeal is made over the head of the planning authority to the Minister for Local Government and the appeal is upheld. The planning authority, their views and their responsibilities are dismissed.

This has happened on many occasions in which it has been quite wrong and I am satisfied that it happened because of political pressure on the Minister for Local Government. If we are to have this sort of a situation when this measure becomes law, we will have chaos. When a person who acquires his ground rent wants to do something with the property he has acquired and the planning authority will not give him permission because of what they deem good reasons, he can appeal to the Minister, use political influence and get his appeal granted. I am alarmed at this sort of situation and I have had many complaints about it. I know instances in which it happened. Up to now it has happened with large business interests but presumably you can have the same sort of situation a thousand-fold when tenants of existing houses acquire their ground rents and want perhaps to do things which the planning authority thinks should not be done. They will use political influence to over-rule the planning authority. This should not be done and then, as I said, there is the use of political influence to over rule the planning authority. This is not the Minister's responsibility. I may not be quite in order about this but he might use his influence with the Minister for Local Government, if he is not promoted—which I hope he will be—in relation to this sort of practice.

I am very happy, thanks be to God.

In this shuffle, I think he might go.

Before the sitting is suspended, I want to get the agreement of the House to take some additional business after this Bill is concluded, that is to say, items Nos. 4, 5, 6 and 7 on the Order Paper. It now appears that there will not be any business for the House next week. There is some urgency about these Orders and if the House agrees, I would ask that they be taken when the Bill is concluded. The items concerned are the four Import Quota Orders.

Business suspended at 6.05 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.

I welcome this Bill, but I feel more or less with Senator E. Ryan that it may not be the panacea that it appears to be to quite a number of Senators, and I am sorry that Senator Crowley is not here because I would probably put him thinking along lines that apparently nobody dealing with this Bill has been thinking about up to the present. In the first place, I do not agree with Senator Nash that ground rents, particularly new ground rents, are based on the purchase price and development costs of sites. I have had very considerable experience of small building schemes and I have quite considerable knowledge of private building schemes carried out in recent years, within the last 20 years, when the habit of charging ground rents has become more or less universal even in country districts, and I know that in the case of building new houses or small housing schemes by speculative contractors the prices at which those houses are offered for sale include every possible item of site purchase price and development cost of sites, and the charging of a ground rent over and above that is just like "think of a number and fix that number to the particular site, and regard that as ground rent to be charged in aeternum”. If, in fact, ground rents were based on the purchase price of the site and the development cost, then surely some time they would be terminable, some time the whole cost of the purchase of the site and the development of the site would have been paid off. At that stage, without this Bill at all, in justice, those costs should terminate.

It does not work out that way and, in fact, I know that it is much more common experience to find that these speculators never complete the sites in a satisfactory manner. Very often they do not complete the roads up to the standard that the county council or the urban council would require. I have personal experience of that. I know sites where people are being charged money and where they have to travel over roads which are entirely unsatisfactory and are a great hazard to the people who are trying to raise children in those houses.

The main point I wanted to make is based on my own experience. Other Senators spoke of their experience. The payment of ground rents is subject to income tax. A person who is paying ground rent is liable to income tax on his earnings in his ordinary avocation, but he does not pay income tax on his property so long as it is subject to ground rent. Let us take the case of a man who is paying ground rent of £10 a year and his property is valued at £24. If he is paying £10 a year ground rent, he pays no income tax on his house. If he purchases that ground rent, as is envisaged in this Bill, even at 12½ years purchase, which is not a very high figure—I think it is a reasonable one—he pays a sum of £125, plus costs, for the purpose of becoming the fee simple owner of the property, but now something else happens.

He becomes liable to income tax on his property which is fee simple property. As I say, his house is valued at £24 which is not very high and he is liable for income tax on five fourths of his valuation. He is liable for income tax on £30. At the current rate of income tax of 7/- in the £, he becomes liable for income tax of ten guineas. Having already paid £125, plus fees, for the purchase of the ground rent, he now pays more in income tax than he originally paid in ground rent. If I am not correct I should like the Minister to comment on this, because after all the purpose of any legislation, the Minister will agree, is to confer the greatest possible benefits on those proposed to be covered by it. If I am correct, in buying out the ground rents in some cases people will run up against the cost of a 12½ years purchase of ground rents and at the same time find themselves paying more in income tax than they originally paid in ground rents. I should like the Minister to look into that and tell me if I am right.

On the last point raised, though it is not strictly within the province of the Bill, I think that Schedule A income tax is paid whether ground rent is paid or not. The person living in a house, owning it, is paying Schedule A income tax whether or not he has a fee simple or a leasehold. However, I shall have a look at the matter and, if necessary, take it up with my colleague, the Minister for Finance.

A number of points of a constructive nature were raised. I only wish that things were as easy as Senator Crowley suggested when he quoted from Deputy Seán Dunne's reference in the Dáil to Strongbow, the Earl of Pembroke, being monarch of all he surveyed. I am afraid things have got more complex since that day: I cannot deal with ground rents in as drastic a way as Strongbow was able to do by simply looking over them with his one good eye. This is a complex subject involving a matter of balance, of doing justice to each side, of ensuring that whatever we do in giving a tenant a new right of ownership does not create an inequity as far as the landlord is concerned.

There is a particular danger here in introducing an emotional content into the subject of how to deal with landlords. In this regard I should emphasise that there are several small ground rent landlords and that most ground rent landlords are insurance companies, trust organisations, pension funds and so on. Therefore, the matter is not exactly the same issue as it was 50 years ago. Having said that, I wish to point out that there is an element of basic justice in giving tenants the right to purchase, ensuring at the same time that there is no inequity done to the landlord.

That is precisely what we propose in the Bill through the formula of ensuring that the landlord will be compensated in most cases in such a way as to enable him to reinvest the sums in current National Loan stock. This will be done by the very simple formula of dividing the current rate of gilt-edged interest into 100 and multiplying it by the rent paid. On current interest yield, this would give about 14.8 years purchase and, of course, this will vary according as interest rates vary, but the formula will ensure that a landlord so compensated will not suffer any diminution of income.

It is a fair formula to which we gave a considerable lot of thought. On the one hand, the Commission recommended that we leave it open to the courts. I held the view that some more definite yardstick should be adopted and was attracted by the view that there should be a fixed number of years purchase. The danger of putting any fixed period of that nature into the compensation provisions is that we could do an injustice to either tenant or landlord. In the Bill, we have got the best of the two worlds. Our formula is at once flexible and sufficiently definite to act as a guideline to enable a settlement to take place between landlord and tenant without the necessity to go to arbitration before the county registrar.

I was anxious to ensure that the process would be as inexpensive as possible and that is why I chose the county registrar as the appropriate person to hear the evidence on both sides and to decide on the appropriate compensation. At first we had business premises under the ceiling of 14.8. We took them out by way of Committee amendment in the Dáil, leaving it open to arbitration, because there are many different factors in regard to business premises that could not be decided by any yardstick. Thus, the yardstick which measures the ceiling in the case of residences does not apply to business premises. A very important decision taken by the Government was to go further than the Commission did in their report and include business premises in the right of purchase as well as residential premises. The Commission suggested residential premises only. We have gone further and given the right to purchase the fee simple to business premises. Leasehold enfranchisement of residential premises may be regarded as a social advantage to the tenants but there is a very important economic advantage when business premises are included. It is a very important advantage because it facilitates urban development and urban renewal. In a particular area houses, shops and other business premises may be erected by way of urban redevelopment and this is made easier and cheaper in the Bill because people can acquire the entire title to the area by reason of the fact that businesses as well as residences are included.

It would be intolerable in relation to any such development that people could purchase the ground rents in the case of residences but could not do so in the case of shops or anything of that sort. We have now established that the fee simple can be acquired in respect of both types.

Senator Murphy, I think, made a point as did other Senators, that this Bill did not go far enough. In fact, this Bill is going much further than the measure contemplated by the British Labour Government in respect of leasehold enfranchisement. They have published a White Paper on this matter and are contemplating legislation. The White Paper did not go as far as we have gone. At the same time, while this is a radical measure to remove a wrong which it was felt for a number of years should be removed, we have been concerned that justice should be done as far as the landlord is concerned.

Senator O'Quigley made a point that there might be some constitutional difficulty about the county registrar acting as arbitrator. I do not consider that there is any validity in this. The county registrar is a judicial officer. He performs many judicial and quasijudicial functions and I do not see any difficulty in his acting as arbitrator.

A point was made in regard to covenants and there was some criticism that most covenants which have been of benefit to property and to the amenities of an area will now cease under this Bill and will in future be a matter for planning regulation. My only answer to this is that you cannot have your cake and eat it. Are you going to give tenants the right to buy out their ground rents or not? If you are not going to do away with restrictive covenants there is no attraction at all in this sort of legislation because the attraction of the fee simple to a tenant is precisely to enable him to get rid of restrictive covenants. It would be primarily on the basis of getting rid of restrictive covenants that I feel most applications will be made under this particular Bill. That was the evidence before the Commission as well. They were told, as reported on page 24:

Landlords were using the covenants for the purpose of gaining some pecuniary advantage rather than in the interest of good estate management. For instance, permission for a change of user of premises which required structural alterations, was not granted unless an increased rent, or a fine, was paid. It was suggested that landlords sometimes insist on structural alterations on change of user, merely to qualify for an increased rent or a fine in accordance with section 57 of the 1931 Act.

This was the evidence before them. My information is that what we propose is the most practical solution. It will help people to get rid of restrictive covenants by enabling them to purchase the fee simple. I do not consider that there is any injustice involved in this.

We have very good planning legislation. The question of its enforcement is not within my ambit. There was criticism in regard to the injustices of planning authorities but if we are going to give tenants the right to purchase their ground rents we must also let restrictive covenants go by the board. We made exceptions in some cases, such as statutory covenants. Other than that we say: "Let restrictive covenants go." In my view this is essential. There is no point in saying you welcome this Bill on the one hand if, on the other hand, you say that restrictive covenants should continue. You cannot have your cake and eat it.

Senator O'Quigley referred to other aspects of landlord and tenant law. I anticipated this by establishing a Landlord and Tenant Commission whose first interim report I expect shortly. The terms of reference of this Commission are global. The whole purpose of their establishment was to consolidate and codify all landlord and tenant law from Deasy's Act to the present, bring in such improvements as are necessary and remove the anomalies which exist and about which complaints have rightly been made over the years.

Another point made in the course of the debate, which indeed engaged my attention and the attention of the Government, is the prohibiting of the creation of ground rents in future. I was personally attracted towards prohibiting future ground rents until I examined the matter in greater detail. There are various objections to this. The first is that if you permit this legislation you straight away put up the price of houses. This means that you add £200 or £300 to the initial price of a house. At present newlyweds just cannot afford that. What we are doing in practice is giving the tenant a choice of the ground rent or a capital payment. This will enable houses to be purchased more cheaply. The people who go into those houses can, when they become better off, buy out the fee simple.

Another aspect in regard to prohibiting the creation of ground rents in future is that it could be unconstitutional. You are here prohibiting somebody from dealing with his property in the way he wishes. Every person has a constitutional right to deal with his property in the way he wishes. The validity of such a prohibition would be very much open to question. However, I think the Bill will achieve the same result. The very fact of bringing in this measure—this has already happened in contemplation of this measure being enacted-will mean the gradual whittling away of ground rents as a source of investment. If ground rents can be bought out in the manner contemplated in the Bill ground rents as a form of investment will gradually disappear. This, I expect, will happen over the next ten or 15 years. Insurance companies, for a long time, were one of the main investors in this regard. Immediately after the war this was one of the main sources of investment of insurance companies. Now every insurance company in Ireland is getting out of it.

Because of the Bill?

In anticipation of it.

Will this not reduce the value of ground rents?

This is what is happening. I feel this investment by insurance companies will gradually disappear.

How can the Minister feel this Bill is equitable if it depresses the value of ground rents?

The ground rents can be bought out at a fair price up to a maximum of 14.8 years purchase, that is, without a loss in income. That is how the formula works out. I think equity was met there because at present ground rents are cheaper and for a number of years ground rents have been sold at ten or 12 years purchase. The inflation in ground rents was a post-war phenomenon but certainly not in the past five years.

Senator Miss Davidson raised a point which is valid and I am glad to say it is met in the Bill. Senator Miss Davidson referred to a case where a planning authority gives permission to do something but the landlord sends an engineer who charges a fee. This will be covered in future by section 29 of the Bill which provides that where any person holding under a building or proprietary lease proposes to do anything with the property which is development and for which permission is granted by the Local Government Planning and Development Act, 1963, and which would apart from the section be a breach of a covenant with the landlord, in that sort of case the covenant shall be deemed nugatory, not to exist as far as getting the landlord's consent is concerned. The matter is covered by section 29 and this precisely covers the point made by Senator Miss Davidson.

There were a number of other points raised which are largely of Committee Stage nature. I have dealt with the main points of principle that were raised but you can argue until the cows come home about whether compensation claims are too much or too little. I think a balance has been struck by the formula. In this situation we are seeking to strike a balance but you are always faced with some who think it is too much and some who think it is too little but if one takes a detached point of view this is a just formula.

Senator Ryan said the Bill would not be availed of to any great extent. This might be so if it were purely confined to houses. It includes business premises as well as houses so that it will be used to a far greater extent than originally envisaged.

Most of the points mentioned, as I have said, were of Committee Stage nature and if I have missed out any points I would be glad if the matter were brought to my notice on Committee Stage. We had a very constructive debate in the Dáil on Committee Stage. It is, in fact, a Committee Stage measure as was agreed by all parties and I look forward to the Committee Stage in the Seanad.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 30th November, 1966.
Top
Share