Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1968

Vol. 65 No. 2

Motor Vehicles (Registration of Importers) Bill, 1967: Committee Stage.

SECTION I.

Mr. O'Quigley

I move amendment No. 1:

To add to the section a new subsection as follows:

"( ) A regulation shall not be made under subsection (2) of this section until a draft thereof has been approved by resolution of each House of the Oireachtas."

Earlier this evening on the Performers' Protection Bill I adverted to the section of the Bill where the Government was to make an Order applying the Act to foreign countries. I felt that was the kind of Order which should certainly be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. In this case what the Minister is in substance seeking power to do is to enable himself by regulation to amend the definition of "motor vehicle" which in subsection (1) of section 1 is defined in extenso, I quite agree that there are cases where it is necessary to implement sections of a Bill by regulation, to make Orders, and that a sufficient safeguard is provided if those regulations and orders are laid before each House of the Oireachtas. However, when it comes to amending the substance of a Bill, where it is extending or restricting or adding to, I think that such amendments ought not to be carried out merely by a regulation to be made by the Minister and laid before each House of the Oireachtas.

The practice has grown up and is clearly embodied in the legislation of this county. One finds it frequently in the Social Welfare Acts, certainly it is in several places in the Social Welfare Act of 1952 that where it is necessary to modify the provisions of a section of the Bill, not merely to implement it, that power is taken to do it by order or by regulation subject to the provision that a draft of the regulation is laid before each House of the Oireachtas and a resolution approving of the draft must be passed and then the Minister can amend. That seems to me to be the kind of case we have here in subsection (2) where the Minister is going to extend or restrict the definition of "motor vehicle" which is actually part of the legislation. One has only to look at the space that is taken up by it. It runs from line 16 to line 32, sixteen lines, and the Minister proposes to amend this subsection merely by a regulation. I do not think this is right or proper and I think that a draft of the regulations should first be approved by each House of the Oireachtas merely for the sake of maintaining the authority of Parliament over legislation. I do not want to repeat myself. I have no objection to implementing legislation by regulation but I do object, and I think the Minister and many others would agree with me, that we ought not to amend legislation simply by regulation.

I hope the Minister will accept this amendment and that the House will accept it. I should say that in practice and experience an amendment of legislation by the draft order procedure has never given rise to any delay whatever. I have never known of any protracted debate. There has been some debate and this has been useful on occasions in enabling the Minister to make a statement from a position where he would not be able to command the public attention with the same effectiveness that a regulation would command. I think there is no loss at all to ministerial power or ministerial influence by adopting the procedure suggested in my amendment.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Colley)

I do not think what is involved in this matter is a question of ministerial power. What might be alleged to be involved is the power of the Houses of the Oireachtas and in this regard I do not think there is any breaching of that in the provisions of the Bill because section 8 provides that as usual any Orders of this nature must be presented to the Houses of the Oireachtas and may be annulled by resolution of either House. In practice, it could happen that the legislation operating it may reveal the need to exclude certain vehicles from its scope or some other amendment might be needed and serious inconvenience and disruption of business could arise if it were to be held up. It could be held up in some circumstances for a period of months, for instance, if the Houses of the Oireachtas were not in session. For that reason I think it could be seriously disrupting to have to adopt the procedure set out in the amendment and, on the other hand, the question of the Houses of the Oireachtas having the ultimate control in this regard is, of course, safeguarded by virtue of the provisions of section 8. For those reasons I find myself unable to accept the amendment.

Mr. O'Quigley

The Minister has not dealt with the point I am making, that it is one thing to implement a particular section by regulations which are then laid before each House of the Oireachtas and which may be annulled within a period of 21 days and another thing to amend a section of an Act by a regulation. The Minister puts in a plea that business may be delayed. Of course, business may be delayed if people are not alert. How often have we seen urgent measures brought in here in the last days before the Christmas or the summer recess and there have been months before in which to bring in the legislation? In fact, I think before Easter we had a Bill in here that was red hot, great urgency associated with it, and we were expected to pass all Stages in one day. I think, in order to meet the difficulties of the situation, we did so. Then, when it came, if my recollection is correct, to look at the date when the particular Bill was introduced we discovered that it was introduced 18 months previously. Everybody sat down, sent files down from the Minister's office and his advisers, had consultations with the interests affected, then somebody went on holidays; there was promotion and somebody did not pick up on that. This was the reason Parliament was presented with it in this fashion. I think it was a Bill from the Minister's own Department which had been introduced about 18 months previously.

That is what happens when people are lethargic and are not alive and with it. I take the stand that this Order the Minister power to do this by Order, tion to amend a section of an Act should not be permitted. It is good enough of the Oireachtas to give the Minister power to do this by Order, which will be approved it seems before it is made, but I do not at all agree to this erosion of the power there. It is no use saying those regulations can be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. That does not satisfy me because I do not believe any regulation ought to amend any Act of Parliament. I quite agree, as I say, that a regulation can be made to implement an Act of Parliament. To amend an Act of Parliament by regulation—sin scéal eile.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the amendment being pressed?

Mr. O'Quigley

Yes.

Mr. Colley

Just briefy I want to say that if Senator O'Quigley was referring to the anti-dumping legislation his recollection is accurate in regard to the length of time between its introduction and being brought in here. As the Bill to which I have referred was the only one which might fit into the category he referred to, his recollection is somewhat vague in regard to the reasons for the delays which were experienced. It was not the case that files were passed back and forth. The delay related to a change in the GATT code, which resulted in our being able to add that in. I do not agree with the Senator in regard to the principles he is enuciating in the amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Mr. O'Quigley

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 3 to add to the section a new subsection as follows:

"( ) The register shall be open to public inspection at such times as the Minister by regulation may from time to time determine."

This amendment is put down to find out what this register will disclose. I refer to the register which is to be kept by the Revenue Commissioners. We have a register for companies and a register for business names and it seems to me that there is no reason why this register should not be freely open to the public. I do not see the Minister having any difficulty in accepting this amendment.

Mr. Colley

The only information which the register of motor vehicle importers will contain will be the names and addresses of registered firms and the makes and types of motor vehicles for which they are registered. At the present time if a person wishes to ascertain who is an Irish distributor, his name and the type of vehicle he has, he can readily get this information by inquiry through the trade. Of course, the position would be the same after the coming into operation of this Bill. There is no objection from my point of view to making this information available but it seems to me that the Senator's amendment is unnecessary because the information will be available both through official sources and the trading merchants. I have no rooted objection to the amendment except that I do not think it is necessary.

Mr. O'Quigley

If the Minister is agreeable to undertake that such information will be available on inquiry I have no objection to withdrawing the amendment.

Mr. Colley

I am prepared to give that undertaking.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 2 agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Mr. O'Quigley

I move amendment No. 3:

Before subsection (2) to insert a new subsection as follows:—

"( ) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) of this section the Minister may impose conditions relating to—

(a) the quality of manufactured motor vehicles,

(b) prohibiting the issue of, or the publication of, or requiring the signature of any purchaser to, a document which is misleading or likely to mislead as to the conditions upon which the motor vehicle is being sold,

(c) the rectification of faults in manufacture or assembly of a motor vehicle including the payment of compensation to the owner of the vehicle or to a person buying same on hire purchase."

I referred to the substance of this amendment on the Second Stage of the Bill. As I understand the position now as a result of the introduction of the Bill the motor industry and the motor assembly industry in this country may look forward, on the Minister's assessment of the situation, to a period of perhaps, 20 years or 25 years and, perhaps, longer of progress and expansion. That being the case, and being the case for the future, most Irish motorists will be buying their motor cars, lorries, vans and so on from Irish assemblers. It seems to me to be the proper time to decide what should be done in the interests of the purchasers of motor vehicles of all classes. There is no doubt at all in my mind that if a person invests £600, £700 or £800 in a new car or £1,200 or more in a motor truck or van and much larger sums than that in a heavier vehicle and it turns out to be a dud he should be able to do something about it.

As things stand, there is always a dud lot in every ten, 20, 30, 50, 100, or whatever is the average, of motors assembled. It has nothing whatever to do with being Irish or American assembled because it happens that way. The weight falls against the individual purchaser who has no effective remedy for the bad motor vehicle he purchases. It is the small man against the giant corporation. The stage has been reached where the conditions under which motor vehicles are sold to the public should be examined by the Minister's Department or the Department of Justice, who probably would be more concerned with it from the point of view of the Sale of Goods Act.

One has seen from time to time the unfortunate person who makes a tremendous investment of £500, £600 and up to £900 or £1,000 on a new car or a trade in and he gets a dud. That person goes along to the garage who will refer him to the guarantee he has signed. That guarantee is one which excludes the manufacturer and the supplier from the strict provisions of the Sale of Goods Act. Under that Act, as Members of the House know, where a person buys an article, which is in the course of the vendor's business to sell, and he relies on the vendor's skill and judgment, then he is entitled to expect that that article will be of merchantable quality but the guarantee that the innocent purchaser of a motor vehicle is presented with is framed in such a way that if anything goes wrong with his vehicle he cannot go back to the garage man and say: "Look here, this car is a heap of scrap. It is leaking oil all over the place. That is the third time I have had something done to the clutch in six months." The first thing he will be asked is how long ago he purchased the car.

If he says he has it such and such a time and if it is over six months he will be told that the six-month or the 12-month period has elapsed. In signing the guarantee the purchaser has, in fact, excluded himself from the provisions of the Sale of Goods Act in relation to that particular vehicle. That is the greatest injustice to the small man and I do not hesitate to say so. It is a fraudulent document prepared by wily, crafty and scheming advisers, motor manufacturers and motor assemblers whoever they are. It is a treacherous document to be allowed to be presented to unfortunate members of the public who think, when they are signing under guarantee, that they are getting something special, something extra. That is the position of a person who makes an out and out purchase of a motor vehicle from a garage, but the position of a person under the Hire Purchase Acts is even worse because he cannot go to the garage who supplied him.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Seanad adjourned at 10.5 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6th June, 1968.