Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Mar 1969

Vol. 66 No. 9

Export Promotion (Amendment) Bill, 1969: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Colley)

The Bill proposes to amend the Export Promotion Acts, 1959 to 1967, firstly, to make provision for further grants to Córas Tráchtála and, secondly, to enable Córas Tráchtála to provide assistance for certain design and planning services.

By the Export Promotion Act, 1959, Córas Tráchtála was established as a statutory body to promote, assist and develop exports in any manner which the Board considers necessary or desirable. To enable the Board to exercise or perform its functions, the 1959 Act provided for non-repayable grants to be made to the Board out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas up to a total of £1 million. The total amount of grants which might be made to the Board was increased to £2.5 million by the Export Promotion (Amendment) Act, 1963 and to £4.5 million by the Export Promotion (Amendment) Act, 1967.

At 31st March, 1968, the total amount of grants made to the Board totalled £3,387,885 leaving a balance of £1,112,115 unissued from the existing statutory limit of £4.5 million. This balance is not sufficient to meet the requirements of the Board for the current financial year which total £1,260,000. This Bill proposes to raise to £9 million the aggregate amount of grants that may be made to Córas Tráchtála.

I am sure that the House is well aware of the important part played by Córas Tráchtála in the development of exports particularly exports of industrial goods through the provision of a wide range of aids and services for exporters. The House will be glad to know that there is a continuing increase in the demands by exporters on Córas Tráchtála. This has been particularly marked in the past few years and has been reflected in the growth in exports generally and especially in the growth in exports of industrial goods. Between 1963 and 1968, for example, total exports increased from £199 million a year to an estimated £365 million, an increase of more than 80 per cent. In the same period industrial exports more than doubled rising from £67 million a year to an estimated £176 million.

Córas Tráchtála have recently announced a programme of new incentives and services aimed at stimulating and assisting a more rapid expansion of exports to markets other than Britain. The policy of market diversification which has been pursued during the last decade has already succeeded in developing substantial exports to third markets. The measure of the progress achieved in building up our trade with Western Europe, North America and more distant markets was that exports to these areas reached an estimated total of £125 million in 1968 as compared with less than a quarter of that amount ten years ago. The object of the new measures is to accelerate this rate of expansion in third markets and to counter the possibility of over-concentration in the years ahead on the British market.

Córas Tráchtála have been approached on a number of occasions by architects and engineers seeking grant and advisory assistance in connection with overseas consultancy work. As Córas Tráchtála's function of promoting, assisting and developing exports refers only to exports of goods, the various aids and services which Córas Tráchtála provide for exporters are not available to consultant architects and engineers in connection with design and consultancy services rendered by them to principals in other countries. It will readily be appreciated that an Irish consultant architect or engineer working on an overseas project could influence the purchase of Irish goods and materials for that project by making positive recommendations to the client where Irish goods of the required quality and price could be obtained or by specifying goods to Irish standards. There is, of course, the direct flow of income into the country in the form of fees in respect of overseas design and planning services which could become a not insignificant item in our balance of payments. It is considered desirable that Córas Tráchtála should have power to assist architects and engineers carrying out design and planning services in the State in connection with engineering and constitutional works executed outside the State. The Bill will provide such enabling power for Córas Tráchtála.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

It is not possible for us to evaluate the exact contribution of Córas Tráchtála in the development of Irish exports. There have been a number of factors at work in the remarkable expansion of industrial exports in the past 13 years, including the export tax reliefs scheme introduced in 1956, and subsequently extended, and including also the pressure on Irish industry of the moves towards freer trade which had the effect of encouraging, to put it mildly, Irish firms to export.

At the same time, unless we had during this period Córas Tráchtála as a catalyst, as a force working to help Irish industry to take advantage of the opportunities that existed in export markets, the scale of export activities achieved could not have been secured. Many Irish firms are grateful to the Board for the work they have done and many of them work closely with it. Inevitably there are some who found the Board less helpful to their requirements than others. Inevitably there are some dissatisfied customers as well as satisfied customers. There have been differences of opinion at times within the Federation of Irish Industries and Córas Tráchtála as to the best methods of developing exports, and the way in which the Board can help Irish industry most effectively.

These differences are inevitable I think, and they are not serious. By and large Irish industry has cause to be grateful to Córas Tráchtála for the work they have done. There are some people who feel that the Board are unnecessary and that the work which they do should be done by Irish embassies. Certainly Irish industry, at times in particular countries in particular periods, has had reason to be dissatisfied with the efforts made on its behalf by our diplomatic staffs.

It should be said, because this point has been made on several occasions, that this is only a partial picture. In addition to the work of Córas Tráchtála, there are in a number of cases Irish embassies and Irish ambassadors who have been working with great ability and energy and enthusiasm, to supplement the activities of Córas Tráchtála to develop exports. In my own limited experience of visiting other countries and meeting members of the staffs of Irish embassies and Irish ambassadors themselves, I have had experience of ambassadors whose dedication and energy in the field of export promotion leaves nothing to be desired.

Indeed, the image of Irish diplomats as unwilling to soil their hands with matters of trade, members of the striped trousers brigade, is one which is by no means fair. On the contrary, there are Irish ambassadors who have shown themselves willing to move out of the salons, in which ambassadors are thought to spend their time, into department stores selling Irish wares uninhibitedly. We owe a good deal to those ambassadors and members of the staff who have worked in this way as well as Córas Tráchtála. Inevitably, there are embassies and ambassadors who have not pulled their weight as well as those who have more than pulled their weight.

There is still room for closer liaison between Córas Tráchtála and our diplomatic staffs, and there is room for more to be done in some countries by ambassadors who have not shown themselves as enthusiastic as they might in the development of Irish exports. It should be said that the picture sometimes drawn of the diplomatic staff generally as unwilling to pull their weight is quite untrue. Different kinds of people are bringing different conditions, and some are much better than others. Many of them are doing an excellent job and it is fair to pay tribute to them.

The board have made an increasing contribution to export promotion over the years. Their task is not always an easy one, because they face, in various countries, restrictions on trade of one kind or another which are not easy to get around. The history of our trade relations with the outside world has not been, on the whole, very successful. Starting off as an independent State but within the British sphere of influence, we started off with a long history of relative isolation from the rest of the world behind us, and particularly relative isolation from Europe. We did not have the free access, or partly free access, to the European market which other European countries had which were more closely integrated into the European community. We are still suffering from this.

By comparision with Denmark our access to the German market for agricultural produce is limited because Denmark has long and historical relations of trade with Germany which we have not had because so long as we were part of the United Kingdom and, indeed, our trade with other countries was restricted. In the 17th and 18th centuries it was restricted in the interests of British trade and commerce. We are still suffering from that and our access to markets, particularly in Europe, is strictly limited today. This poses a problem for Córas Tráchtála, a problem in promoting Irish exports.

Not sufficient has been made of the fact that the devaluation of the Irish and English £18 months ago, went a long way to reducing these barriers. I am not sure that it is generally realised that the typical tariff barrier against Irish manufactured goods on Continental Europe is probably around 15 or 20 per cent at the moment, and that the devaluation of the Irish £ by 14 per cent, even though it was accompanied by increases in production costs because of the higher import bill to be paid for imported materials, must have been the equivalent, from the point of view of competitiveness, of a halving of the tariff barrier overnight.

Had this tariff barrier been halved overnight it would have been something about which we would have heard a lot of talk. Irish firms would have been excited at the prospect open to them by that. Because this took the round about devious form of devaluation, and because the implications of devaluation are not as clear cut, I am not sure that Irish firms have sufficiently appreciated that, at least for industrial goods, the devaluation of the Irish £ with all its disadvantages, did have the advantage as a by product of making our goods more competitive.

Córas Tráchtála, I know, have done their best to cash in on this and have tried to alert Irish firms to the new opportunities opened up by devaluation, and to see that despite the disadvantages brought about by devaluation and increased costs of imports, at the same time there were certain potential gains, if we had the energy and wit to realise this.

The board have been concentrating on the diversification of Irish trade. This is now a matter of vital importance. It was always important, but its importance has been emphasised by recent events. It is now clear that British policy as regards agriculture has moved into a new period uniquely disadvantageous to us. We had thought that we had seen the worst of British policy in regard to Irish agriculture during the 1950s and 1960s when, with the introduction of the deficiency payments scheme the inhibitions that the British Government had previously had about applying their cheap food policy at the expense of their own farmers were removed.

During those years British policy was able to be completely uninhibited in pursuing a cheap food policy at the expense of British suppliers, because of the device of the deficiency payments scheme which it was felt Britain could afford as the British farming community is so small, representing about four per cent of the people. We had thought that perhaps that was the worst that Britain could do to us, but there has now been a further turning of the screw which may, if today's papers are correct, have been in part temporarily deferred for a year, but one which we must take very seriously indeed.

I was in London two or three weeks ago and had occasion to speak to a British civil servant whose activities are not unconnected with the problem of trade, although he is not in the Ministry most directly relevant. He is a junior civil servant of Irish origin and he said he was appalled by the failure of the Irish Government and people to appreciate the seriousness of the position now facing this country and that British policy in regard to agriculture is now directed to squeezing out suppliers to the British market towards securing the whole, if possible, of the increase, such as it is, for British foodstuffs——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should be careful to relate his remarks about agriculture and agricultural exports to the matter dealt with under the Bill.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

I am conscious of the danger of being irrelevant but I want to come to the point that British policy makes it wise for us to diversify our trade. I want to suggest how this should be done. This civil servant said he was appalled by the Irish people and Government who failed to grasp the appallingly serious situation which the British policy now forces on us. The assurances offered by the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement are not worth the paper they are written on. In fact, the position is worse than before the Agreement was signed. The British Government have no intention of paying any attention to this Agreement.

We are worse off than we were before it was signed and worse off than we were in the 1950s and 1960s. If this interpretation is correct, and everything I have read or seen suggests it is, does the battle which our Government have had to fight to get Agreement on limited cheese exports, which were to be unlimited, have to be changed? The suggestion is it has to be changed as has been agreed.

It is incredible that the Minister has had to fight a battle ending up with what they described as a victory and that we have a limit on our relatively satisfactory cheese exports which were to be unlimited. We were told that our cheese exports could not be restricted under the Agreement. The victory is that the limit is not too bad. This confirms what was suggested to me by my friend in London. This means that the points which I have made in this House in previous years, since this Agreement was first mentioned, about the danger of our dependence on the British economy, are of greater validity now than ever before. We should have tried to reduce our dependence. We should even have taken risks to reduce it. We now find ourselves dependent on a country determined to pursue its own interests to our disadvantage as it has done throughout its history.

It is now vital to diversify trade and to take our trade away from Britain. It is necessary to force our industry and agriculture out into other markets. This will have to be done in the industrial sector. There are many obstacles to our agricultural exports expansion which are so great that they are making the problems of our existing trade situation insoluble.

This trade diversification is something in which Córas Tráchtála are playing a role. They have been pressing hard on Irish industrialists to export elsewhere. It is not easy because the expansion of exports to Britain is relatively easy for Irish firms. We have not yet fully exploited the potential of our industrial goods. Further expansion to Britain is relatively easy for us because we speak the same language and their trade position is similar to ours. It is easier to sell in existing markets than to go into different countries with different laws, regulations and languages with which we are not familiar. It is not easy for Córas Tráchtála to persuade Irish industry to do things the hard way. The Bórd is fulfilling a vitally important function in this. The Minister will agree that it is essential it should be encouraged to pursue these policies and that Irish industry should be given every possible incentive with a view to encourage it to diversify its trade.

I want to come to something which may be under consideration by the Government at the present time. It is a question of trade diversification and something which would help Córas Tráchtála by giving them a powerful incentive weapon at the present time. I am speaking about the export tax relief scheme. Under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, if this Agreement still stands in any form, and subject to the review now under way which may demolish some or part of it, we are bound to terminate this export tax relief scheme vis-à-vis Britain by 1980. I suggest that the Government terminate it. The Agreement has been dangerous and damaging to our country. We should not have been put in the position where Britain have welched on the Agreement, and we remain bound to open up three-quarters of our market to British goods over the next six years until we are back in the free trade position we were in before tariffs were introduced here.

I hope the Government will pursue that and try to get agreement. It would modify our obligations as much as Britain has modified her obligation to us. There is an obligation on us to terminate that scheme before 1980. It would be of great value and importance to the process of trade diversification if the scheme could be extended vis-à-vis other countries. It is my understanding, having consulted the Minister's Department, that we have no obligation of binding character with any Government other than Britain to terminate this scheme. Membership of OECD or GATT does not impose an obligation on us to terminate this by 1980. So far as we fail to get that modified in the negotiations now in progress as contrasted with the decision to continue the scheme vis-à-vis other countries, it would have the effect more than anything else we could do of pushing Irish industry into diversifying its exports.

The scheme has been a powerful weapon. It was opposed by Government advisers when introduced. It was contrary to international obligations. It was pushed through by the Government at that time. It has been wisely and well extended by the present Government and has proved a powerful weapon. It has played a big part in Irish exports. If it was concentrated on trade to countries other than Britain it should have a real effect on encouraging trade with such countries. It should encourage them to transfer their attentions to other parts of the world. This is essential for our survival. There is no doubt but that in the last 20 years the foreign policy of this country has deteriorated because of the fact that we are acutely dependent on one country. We feel it. We have suffered from it in the last 20, 30, 40 years. It is time to assert ourselves and to stand up for our rights. Our foreign policy now consists of not offending this, that or the other country. It is purely a policy of doing nothing that will offend anybody which ends up by doing nothing at all. We will continue in that position so long as we are dependent on one power in particular.

By continuing in that position we will remain economically dependent on one power in particular. From the point of view of the future independence of this country, trade diversification is of vital importance, and in the short-term, from the economic point of view, the shift in British policy may well have a detrimental effect on this country. I suggest to the Minister that he should consider this matter immediately; it may well be already under consideration. It is something that should be considered very seriously and which would help Córas Tráchtála in the excellent work they are trying to do to secure diversification of trade.

There are a few other points I should like to deal with in relation to Córas Tráchtála and Irish exports. The first concerns the Kilkenny Design Centre. The Minister will, no doubt, be aware of the articles written on the subject of the Kilkenny Design Centre which suggest that although the centre has considerable achievements to its credit and is a definite addition to the Irish scene as regards the development of design, it has not been completely successful in its operation. The turnover of professional staff is alarmingly high, and for reasons which may not necessarily be the fault of the Design Centre it does not seem to have been sufficiently integrated into the industrial scene here.

The Minister should concern himself with this and try to establish what is the problem. I do not have enough information to know what the problem is, but I think the evidence of the turnover of staff suggests there is something wrong with the way it is operating. It may be that when the centre was set up we did not envisage the type of problems that have subsequently arisen. I am not suggesting that blame should be attached to anyone—it is inevitable when one starts up something like this, special problems arise, but I hope, having regard to its potential value, the Minister will examine this carefully in order that we may realise its full potential.

Another point which concerns Córas Tráchtála in regard to the presentation of their annual report is the perennial problem of export statistics. The exclusion of exports from the Shannon Free Airport area from trading statistics is a serious defect as these exports represent one-quarter of the goods manufactured here. I am aware of the statistical problems involved and I do not suggest there is an easy solution but I think a greater sense of urgency should be shown in solving the problem than has been displayed over the last three or four years. Frankly, it is intolerable that a country should be in the position that one-quarter of its manufactured goods is excluded from its trading figures.

When one tries to measure the performance of the economy one must be aware this quarter has been omitted. The only place where one can get figures is in the Córas Tráchtála report where the statistics, which are collected more or less informally, are given in aggregate form. From that report we know the total value of exports and imports into that area and the net output of that area. That is the only source of information we have and, because this information is provided informally and unofficially by firms who are not obliged to do so under the existing statistical arrangements, there is no breakdown given of commodities. Therefore, for quite a wide range of goods produced in this country the export figures show only part of the picture.

For example, a knitted fabric industry has been established at Shannon. This is a very important unit but there is no account of it in our export figures and it is quite impossible for anyone to know what our exports of knitwear are. I suppose one way one could find out would be to add up all the imports of all countries who import Irish knitwear and subtract Irish exports, but this seems to be a rather roundabout way to get this information. It is totally unsatisfactory and the Minister should press this as a matter of urgency. We are not in a position to obtain accurate information in connection with trading figures at Shannon and have to rely on incomplete and misleading data.

We welcome the change in section 3 in this Bill. I have felt for many years that we have not made enough of the export potential of our architectural and engineering services. I know some Irish firms have been busy in this matter—one finds an Irish construction company engaged on work outside this country and other firms have also been active in Africa. In this country we produce far more engineers and architects than we can absorb at home. We have a tradition in those professions—a very valuable tradition which enables us to produce people of high calibre whom we cannot absorb. That being so, it would be much more satisfactory if, instead of individuals exporting themselves and being lost to this country, they should be organised into export consortia which would provide enginering and architectural services abroad. Those people could go abroad for a period but remain based in Ireland, and the benefits which would accrue from their activities abroad would come back to this country in place of the more usual emigrants' remittances. Clearly that would be beneficial to this country.

We have in a recent Bill provided for tax relief to extend to engineering services. Architecture was not mentioned but I understand the Minister has given an assurance that it would also extend to this profession. I hope I am correct on this?

Mr. Colley

That is correct.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

The provision of grants as well as the tax relief is extremely valuable and I hope that the architectural and engineering services take advantage of the opportunity now being offered by the Minister. This would serve our country by giving more employment to our graduates so that they could remain based here, even if they serve abroad for a period. It is sad in the case of Ireland and Scotland that so many of our people are serving abroad. This does not really enhance our prestige to the extent it could. Many Irish architects and engineers are serving abroad with English and American firms. They do a useful job but there is not an Irish presence abroad. If we had an architectural group undertaking jobs abroad it would gain for us the prestige such undertakings have gained for countries like Italy, England and America. I think the opportunity is now available to us and I hope that Córas Tráchtála will be able to persuade some of our engineers and architects to take full advantage of it.

Mr. O'Kennedy

The Minister in introducing this Bill to the House has in his own way outlined the modest economic miracle, as it has been called by experts both in Britain and other countries, that has been achieved here in the last 10 years. It is well to recall the relevant figures the Minister has indicated and when we appreciate that exports from this country in the period 1963-1968 have increased from £109 million to £365 million and industrial exports have increased from £67 million to £176 million, we can immediately see that in the eyes of the world this country, from the point of view of expansion, is certainly on the move, though this is sometimes discounted by our cynics at home.

I recall personally in the early 60s coming back to Ireland after an extended stay abroad on the Continent. At that time Córas Tráchtála were to a certain extent cutting their teeth; while they as of that date did not as yet fully understand the market potential, particularly on the Continent of Europe, they were fully aware of what the task ahead of them was. Even then one could only be encouraged by their enthusiasm and determination to inform themselves as fully as possible of what this potential was and their determination to achieve that full potential. When you see that in a short ten years actual grants available from the Oireachtas to Córas Tráchtála have increased from £1 million to, as is now proposed in the Bill, £9 million one can see that here is a clear indication of the Government first of all establishing a body which are well equipped to achieve this desirable end of industrial promotion and export promotion, and secondly one can see the full extent of their achievements. The actual sums of grants from the Government to Córas Tráchtála will at the passing of this Bill have increased nine times in ten years. Surely this is clear evidence of the significance of our achievement in the field of export promotion and industrial promotion.

Senator FitzGerald appears to have reservations about our, as he would suggest, reliance on our near neighbour in Great Britain. Surely this Bill itself and the proposals in it and indeed the history of Córas Tráchtála —these facts alone give the lie to Senator FitzGerald's fears. For instance, as has been mentioned by the Minister, ten years ago our exports to countries such as Europe, United States and other countries apart from Britain were in the region of £30 million. Now they have reached the figure of £125 million.

This by any standards, even of an emerging country like ours, is a clear indication that what we have set ourselves about is to reach out and achieve our fullest potential in every market. No one can overlook the long association, forced though it was on us, with Great Britain and no one could imagine that overnight we were going to change the whole trading associations with people long established by repression and indeed by trading custom, but anybody who looks honestly at the situation will see that the Government have set themselves clearly and effectively out on a programme which will ensure that we reach these other markets and that in reaching them we will expand not alone our exports but also our intellectual and cultural horizons. One cannot expand in business and one cannot deal with people day by day with business associations without being in some way influenced by their cultural attitudes. This is something which is and will be equally achieved more and more by Bills such as the one the Minister introduces today.

Like Senator FitzGerald, I am particularly happy to see that the grants and advisory assistance are now being made available in connection with overseas consultancy work. I will agree with anyone who would say, and there must be many, that certainly our greatest wealth is the brains of our people. We cannot in fact consider an export promotion policy in isolation from all other aspects of Government policy. It is vital to consider our programme of educational development and our policy of universal education at every level for all. Here surely is an opportunity of achieving not just the best for our people at home but of using their great potential, their great ability, in the interest in which they want to see it used, in the interest of the expansion of this country in the field of exports.

It is very evident that here is a field where even more can still be very effectively achieved. There is now a strong cry from time to time for third level educational facilities in various parts of the country. Certainly those cries may be justified in general though not always, possibly, in relation to every aspect of those claims, but one thing I would suggest to those areas, as I have said here before, is that they should consider not just what it would mean for their own area to have a university or whatever it might be but how they can now at this time of great expansion in the country achieve the significance of the development of the Irish culture which is available to them in the field of, amongst others, marketing distribution and schools of marketing.

I have mentioned in this House before that one of the platforms of success of the United States export promotion has been the wide range of market research schools and schools of distribution which flourish there, one because of the others, and here is a field where we can still achieve yet more. In the business of sales particularly to countries with which we do not share a common language the obvious difficulty of communicating is one that poses a real barrier to any salesman however determined and enthusiastic he may be or to any team of salesmen however united they may be in their efforts.

This is a difficulty which I myself experienced in a very limited way, and I can say that if we are going to reach out in the fullest possible way to European markets particularly we must learn as much about these people and their language as possible, and we will have to be able to converse with them in their own language without any difficulty. It is of course in the main our marketing consultants and salesment who will be entrusted with this task. Córas Tráchtála have gone a long way to encourage that, but I would like to see the industries who are themselves being assisted in measures of this sort now taking a very definite lead, particularly major industries, and themselves offering assistance by way of grants or loans or scholarships as the case might be to such schools of marketing research and of sales distribution as will be available and, I trust, expanded even more.

Here is an example, one would hope, of how those industries which have been allowed to develop their own potential, and in doing so the potential of the nation, can best repay to the nation at least in some way what the nation has given them. This is quite a constant characteristic of industrial nations, that major industries have been ploughing back into the business of personnel development for marketing research and otherwise as much as they can spare so that they ensure thereby that not just themselves but other smaller industries with whom they can spare so that they ensure thereby that not just themselves but other smaller industries with whom they are inevitably bound up—because a major industry cannot exist without dependence in some way on smaller industries and vice versa—will also have the full benefit of the best marketing personnel we can launch into any of these new markets we are now exploiting.

On the question of fashion in design, I agree with Senator FitzGerald that the Kilkenny Design Centre has achieved a lot but that possibly even more has still to be achieved in that field. This question of design if only in the field of clothing is so difficult. The styles of dress are so different on the Continent from what they are here that one would want to be fully familiar with not just the designs and the trends of today on the Continent but even with the potential development in fashion and otherwise in those countries. One of the things that has been happening, and this is an inevitable characteristic of wealth in any part of the world, is that as those countries find themselves expanding more in their wealth the demands which are made on their designs and production become more sophisticated and at all times the consumer is reaching something new and exciting. One of the things that would impress anyone re-visiting America after a lapse of even 12 months is that particularly fashions may have changed considerably since the visit of the previous 12 months, and here is a case where we have at all times to be ahead of the market. Here again, I can see the possibilities for Córas Tráchtála and, indeed, for our marketing researchers.

I agree with Senator FitzGerald when he says that many of our embassies have been very unfairly criticised and, particularly, the personnel of the embassies. It has been said that the personnel of our embassies live a life of cocktail parties and that they have failed to reach out to the people with whom they should be concerned. However, when one considers the limited number of personnel that we have in our embassies as compared with the numbers in the embassies of the great nations, such as West Germany, and when one considers the paucity of facilities available to them, one can only admire their efforts. I do not wish to start a debate on foreign policy but we must be realistic. "Realistic" is a term being used more and more nowadays.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

On one side of the House.

Mr. O'Kennedy

At any event, we shall have to ensure that there will be an increase in personnel and an increase in facilities. Perhaps this is something the Irish people should start thinking about. Any further development in our export field must be associated in some way with an expansion in our embassies. I am speaking from my own limited experience but, at the same time, I am speaking particularly of the embassies with which I have had most direct association on the continent of Europe which is a market that we are endeavouring to reach more and more.

One of the reasons why this can be very effective is that some members of our embassy staffs have just that experience to which I referred earlier. They have lived in these countries for four, five or six years and they know the attitudes of the people in the various countries. If we are to expand more we should avail ourselves of these facilities but let us once and for all stop complaining that those people who are there are not doing what they should.

One of the things which will face us as we expand in industry is that we will be in contact with the cultures and attitudes of these other countries— some, perhaps, which we would be much better off without. What has happened here during the past ten years and what will happen in future will prove that it is vitally important for us to realise that we must retain our own attitudes and our own customs. This was expressed quite effectively by the chairman of the Management Institute, Mr. Kenny, while speaking in London on St. Patrick's Day.

The people with whom we hope to do business will only buy from us as long as our goods are different from theirs and as long as they can appreciate something that is different in our civilisation. Anybody who thinks that the Irish language, for instance, is a burden knows little of language and nothing of the culture of our people. Here I must say that a lot has been done in the schools by way of putting more emphasis on the language as a living thing and that far from inhibiting us in our acquisition of another language, say, French or Italian, it actually helps us to learn these other languages. A Swiss child, at the age of 15, may have acquired four languages which illustrates my point that the more languages one acquires the easier it becomes to learn further languages.

Therefore, when one considers the field of industrial promotions one must also consider the whole aspect of Irish life because no matter what else may happen it is important that these export promotions and industrial export figures are certainly not an end in themselves. This Government have never at any time suggested that they are and the Government have always realised that this nation can reach its full potential in every way. Those of us in this country who have the facilities and the ability to help should ensure that every initiative will be taken to expand the field of exports.

This Government, because they have been so successful in the field of industrial export promotion, have contributed greatly to the betterment of conditions of living for every man and woman in the country. The reason why this Bill is before us today is not to make some big factory owner richer but it is to ensure that the people who have the first claim on the nation will have better living conditions, better schools, better hospitals and better houses.

This Bill or any Bill like it cannot be considered in isolation. The Government have been criticised, very unfairly I think, for this development. If we here today are giving greater facilities to Córas Tráchtála, we are doing it for one reason only, and that is for the betterment of our own people whether they are old or sick, and also for the fullest exploitation of our own natural resources.

Business suspended at 1.10 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.

Professor Quinlan

We have been privileged this morning to listen to two excellent contributions to this debate from Senator Garret FitzGerald and Senator O'Kennedy. They showed the large measure of agreement which exists between all Parties on the need for export promotion. There was also a fair measure of agreement on methods. That is as it should be. We would value more opportunities for debated of that type, particularly if we had parliamentary committees operating to provide a medium for such debates. The Minister is noted for being progressive, and perhaps he would experiment with some type of advisory committee in which the Seanad might play some part officially or unofficially. If the Minister makes this experiment I would be only too anxious to help him, and to play any part, and I am sure many Senators would feel the same.

The Bill shows the strides we have made in industrial promotion. The figures are probably not as impressive as a first reading would suggest. We have to allow for the decrease in money values over the past eight or ten years. I would reckon that based on 1960 values our export promotion has been increasing at the order of eight to ten per cent per annum. That is a good achievement by any standards, against the very tough international competition we have to face. Now that we are coming back to realism we can look forward to greater success in the future. The Government in their policy for the next five or six years have shed the myth that there was an imminent prospect of our entering the Common Market and that, therefore, all our planning had to be done in that context. I am glad to see in the latest Government statement that we do not expect to be members by 1972 or 1973 and I say Amen to that. I hope it will never materialise. I do not want to go into detail and obviously I cannot. I dealt with it on other occasions. We can be much more realistic in looking at our prospects for industrial promotion when we face the reality that there is no safe and easy answer in membership of the EEC, and also that free trade which has been rushed on us as a prerequisite for entry to the EEC is not now demanded of us.

The question of dismantling our tariffs and protections should be looked at again. We should also examine and evaluate the inroads that foreign goods have made on our economy. I, for one, feel that we should not at this stage proceed any further with tariff dismantlement just because, particularly over the past couple of years, we may have gained some efficiency in our industrial approach and outlook. We should now begin to mark time and seek other ways and means of expanding our industrial promotion and our level of employment.

The record of Córas Tráchtála is, indeed, an excellent one, considering the very meagre resources, by modern standards, with which they have to operate. Despite the increased resources given to it over the past eight or ten years, its budget for the coming year is still only £1¼ million. When we are dealing with exports of the order of a couple of hundred million pounds, £1¼ million for promotion would be regarded as inadequate in the international scale. The £9 million we are voting here is presumably to accelerate that increase and probably next year there will be a substantial increase in the activities of Córas Tráchtála. Probably its budget will have gone up by at least 50 per cent from where it is this year. It would be money well spent.

We should look at the various factors which affect this question of export promotion and the level of our industrial activities at home. We should weight the various factors involved. We should realise the basic simple truth that it is of little avail to us to win foreign markets if we are losing the home market. While I commend the Government and the Minister for their great efforts in this field I have to contrast them with the lack of effort to mount a really effective "Buy Irish" campaign as an aid to holding the home market against the return of tariffs.

I wonder whether the Minister could give us any further information on this line. It seems to me that we have slid very far in the last year because one sees the shelves in the stores now completely cluttered with foreign made goods such as biscuits, though we produce them ourselves of excellent quality.

There is this flood of competition from outside. There is a complete lack of differential, whether by accident or by design. You will find the articles jumbled together on the shelves so that the housewife coming in does not realise, in nine cases out of ten, that she is buying a foreign article. She buys it on impulse because it looks a little strange or there is something different about it. It is high time we had an effective campaign on that. I know there are difficulties for the Government in subscribing on the one hand to free trade articles and agreements and on the other hand being associated with such a campaign, but I believe that the real leadership in this campaign should come from the people most affected—the trade unions. We have seen little help or initiative from the trade unions in this regard. Their initiative is overdue.

The people who can really make the difference here are the people engaged in the stores selling, or the housewives themselves. In the stores practically all the workers are members of trade unions. If we could establish in the minds of trade unions a connection between the foreign article and putting one of their own members out of employment then we would have gone a long way. Many of us are distressed at the fact that a good deal of our distribution people and of our stores are passing into a type of merger in which foreign interests have often too large a say. We can trace this lack of differential to policy decisions and this can be overcome only if some power like a trade union, operating through its members in the stores, is brought into full play and that they insist at least that the Irish housewife must be shown quite clearly in the stores what is foreign and what is made in Ireland so that she then has to make her decision based on the facts.

I would be the last in the world to encourage any form of picketing, because we should have some better means of solving our disputes than this, but one form of picketing which I would welcome is seeing workers who had lost employment due to loss of home market by the importation of foreign goods carrying placards before such stores—not exactly picketing the stores, but wakening the conscience of the Irish housewife to the necessity for buying Irish goods. The poster might read "Buying foreign goods put me out of work and might put your children out, too".

In a small country like ours we have to do everything we can for ourselves at home. There is no doubt about that. The policies of Sinn Féin are as apt today as ever they were except that they have to be applied by voluntary effort. This effort has to come from the educated conscience of our people. It will be effective then. There are no international rules which can ever say that this is unfair trading practice. We can make all the arrangements we like about foreign goods in our markets provided we educate our people to their duties as Irish citizens. Unfortunately our buy Irish campaign has fizzled out. I am sorry. Perhaps this Minister might be able to do something about it and might be able to take some initiative to see what we can now do to improve our position.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we now return to the problem of export promotion?

Professor Quinlan

That is export promotion in the negative sense which is one of the vital ways in which we can assist our exports. Going to the positive side, there are both parts of the problem, positive and negative. We welcome the establishment of the board but would like to see their scope going further. I should like to see some form of vital concern in home market preservation and the abilities and technical knowledge of their people harnessed in a more imaginative way by the Government through Córas Tráchtála. There are many of our people scattered in all countries, many of whom are very highly successful in various industrial and other lines.

I should like to see a definite sum of money made available by Córas Tráchtála to provide consultancies, or short term work here in Ireland for selected members of our emigrants or our sympathisers abroad who might decide they were coming to Ireland for a month or two on holidays or to live here for a while; and that Córas Tráchtála would be prepared to use such a person for a certain number of days while he was here to give us the benefit of his advice and have whoever the board selected to meet him to discuss the particular problems associated with export promotion and to hear the contribution which he has to make. That works quite well in academic circles—this business of visiting lecturers or experts coming for a long or short stay. It should apply with equal force to all fields including the present one. I should like to see Córas Tráchtála having a free hand in this. I should like to pose this question about it and I do it in the hope that the relations are good between Bord Bainne and Córas Tráchtála. It seems rather unfortunate that there should be a separation of our efforts in the promotion of industrial goods and agricultural goods. I should like to feel that the team effort is developing. The English market is so diverse and we have such a large volume coming in that both elements probably have to be maintained with adequate strength, but in other countries our effort should be harmonised and co-ordinated.

This brings me to what I consider to be a fundamental weakness in our relations between industry and agriculture. I think the time has come when a Ministry for Development should be set up in an endeavour to build up the agricultural and industrial export market and protect the home market. I know the Minister for Finance is to a certain extent charged with this task today, but it appears that his task of regulating finance is a big enough task for one man. I believe a man with equal power and equal co-ordination should be appointed to set up a Development Board. This fragmented effort which we have at present is all wrong. One group might be doing something which shows a profit towards that particular group, but viewed in the light of the overall picture of the economy as a whole might show a loss.

I share the feeling of Senators and Deputies that we should be more independent of the British market, but we have tried to do that all the time and yet hard reality brings us back to the situation that they are by far our best customer and we are theirs. In fact the total of our exports and imports to and from Britain is much more balanced than it is with any other country. We need to put some teeth into our industrial promotion and our export effort. We must have international bartering, because there is no other way in which we can survive. A Bill was introduced some four years ago—I forget the title of it—which intended to put teeth into our dealings with all other countries, including the countries in Eastern Europe, in this matter of balancing our imports and exports. We were assured that there were some real teeth being set, but the results totally disprove that.

Let us take as an instance our efforts at promotion in Poland where the most recent figures showed that we bought, I think it was in 1967, some £3 million of machinery and other articles from Poland, but they only bought £¼ million worth of goods from us. Obviously, as a nation, we cannot exist on such a basis. In dealing with those countries I think there should be some Government power—I think the power is there but it is not being used strongly enough — whereby we cannot buy Polish machinery unless Poland is prepared to buy goods to an equivalent amount from us. It is a factor in dealing with Britain that we buy roughly the same amount as we sell. International trading is a tough business and we can only exist if we are tough. The French tell us, "No more lamb after 20th June," and they bring down our economy totally and inexplicably. Why then do we not retaliate by saying, "Sorry, no more French wine after such and such a date"? I do not see any retaliatory effort coming from our side, yet other countries seem to do it quite freely.

Indeed the Free Trade Area Agreement with Britain which I accept as the best that could have been obtained at that time and for which I give full credit to the negotiators, had a balance of profit and loss which we thought was in our favour. The British made the case that it was slightly in their favour. It was made in the context of free trade being inevitable and if one accepts that fundamental proposition, of course, we had no choice but to accept it. But if we now accept that membership of EEC is fading away, then I think we can also accept the proposition that free trade is not inevitable, and we can, therefore, return to a mild form of protectionism.

In that context we see that Britain has on two major occasions altered the treaty unilaterally. This is something that our negotiators have never made full play of. Let us be plain about it: the restrictions imposed by Britain at the present time break the treaty. On the other hand we must realise that if Britain breaks the treaty when it suits her, obviously if the pressure of dismantling tariffs on our industries is too great we can react for our own protection. Under the clause which allows us, in certain cases of dumping or threatening of the market here, to invoke certain tariffs, we should be prepared to use that power much more freely than we have used it up to the present time.

We are all highly disturbed about losing markets and undermining the efforts of Córas Tráchtála. On the other hand, failure to keep commitments due to the recent strike action or any strike action is going to have difficulties in that regard. I hope therefore that the TUC will accept the invitation of the Minister for Labour to go to him at this stage and fashion proper amendments to the Industrial Relations Bill to as to give us something that will get rid of these prolonged stoppages and let us exist as a nation in the modern world.

The other point is that we can lose markets and undermine the work of Córas Tráchtála by greatly increased costs. The recent most solemn warning by the Minister for Finance underlines that. What is the answer in that case? I venture to suggest from here that on the one hand we have a great deal of sympathy with the lower paid workers who find inflation hitting them. It is harder and harder to make their pay packet go round and therefore they have a very real need for a better pay packet, but that pay packet cannot be given at the expense of increased labour costs. I suggest that the answer is quite simple—let Irish industry make available more earning power to the workers by making the factories available for longer hours, because if you could increase the worker's pay packet by ten or 20 per cent if he works not the corresponding number of hours but even about half the corresponding number of hours—in other words, take a 40 hour week, if you increase that ten per cent and add an additional half day the ten per cent increase would justify at least a 20 per cent increase in wage rate because idle machinery is being put to work.

I think that in the present crisis that it is what can be given to the Irish workers. The idle machinery can do all the work for them in the period over and above their existing hours. If that is done you will still hold the cost of your commodities competitive. You will prevent the cost rising on the home market. You will prevent any inflationary trend and you will give above all an increased pay packet to the workers concerned.

There is nothing wrong with this country that a little extra work by all could not cure. I say that coming from the university where most of our people never reckon on hours or reckon on an hourly basis their work. They do 60 or 70 or 80 hours a week and because they enjoy the work they are prepared to do it. Can we get that same spirit across into all our community and all our effort? I know that members of Córas Tráchtála share that spirit. They are not tied to hours. They work as cheerfully in the evening or on Saturday as they will on any other day, especially when they are on trade missions abroad and they are accessible and eager for consultation at any time. That is the spirit, and if we approach things in that spirit then under the guidance of the present Minister I feel that our industrial promotion can go ahead, but I would like to see that Ministry translated into a Ministry of Development where it would be on a part with the Minister of Finance and would have general supervisory and regulatory functions to co-ordinate all our efforts which are so necessary. A small country cannot afford diversification.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

I should like to congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill which I think is most valuable and useful. I should like at the same time to avail of the opportunity to pay a tribute to the excellent work which is being done by Córas Tráchtála. I happened to hear a broadcast from Melbourne, Australia, on St. Patrick's Day, in which some details were given of the promotional visit of a Córas Tráchtála team to Australia and certainly the story told was most encouraging and most interesting. Trade with Australia as a result of the Córas Tráchtála efforts and as a result of the good co-operation that they have got from the Irish diplomatic officers in Canberra has increased by leaps and bounds in the past few years.

They now regard Australia as one of our best prospects for overseas business. Certainly there is no doubt that with the large Irish and Anglo-Irish population in Australia some of the excellent liquid which we produce here could find a very ready market if our distillers are in a position to supply it, apart altogether from the other goods which we are in a position to supply and which I am glad to note are now finding their way in a steady stream across the oceans to Australia.

It is a pity, however, that when the promotional team had got so far as to visit the land of the Southern Cross it did not put its sights a little northwards into the North Pacific to the Island of Japan where there are something like 100 million people living on a small number of islands, a very virile, efficient, progressive and fast growing race with one of the largest consumer markets in Asia, in fact in the world, where the standards of living have increased so rapidly in recent years as to approximate in the cities and towns particularly to the high standard of living which obtains in many industrialised areas of the United States. Some four or five years ago I made a plea here in the Seanad to our Government to consider the opening of an Embassy in Japan which could be used as a focal point for trade and diplomatic promotions in the far Eastern area right to the Philippines, Manila, Burma, Indonesia and all the areas surrounding it. Unfortunately nothing transpired as a result of it and I am very disappointed that no action has yet been taken on it. In the absence of any diplomatic representation in Tokyo, although we have Japanese representation here in Dublin, in the form of an Embassy, a permanent resident Ambassador and staff, I felt that it was a pity that the Córas Tráchtála exploratory team did not go northward to Tokyo and see what the prospects for development of Irish trade there were. Anyone who looks at the trade figures will note that our exports to Japan have increased tremendously also and have now passed well over the £1 million marks, which is a remarkable increase in trade compared with what the figures were ten or 15 years ago. There is a big market there for Irish goods. In the same way that we have already goodwill in the land of the Southern Cross there is undoubtedly a lot of built-in goodwill in Japan because of our neutrality during the Second World War, because of the courtesy and hospitality with which the Japanese diplomatic representatives were treated here by the Government of that time, and because of the good relations which have always existed between the two countries due to the presence there of a tremendous force of Irish missionary priests, sisters, brothers and nuns.

I think that it is time that we realised that this built-in goodwill could be turned to the material advantage of our country by endeavouring to secure a practical return in the shape of trade. I know that a trade agreement has been mooted and is probably in process of negotiation, but independent of a trade agreement altogether I feel that when the Córas Tráchtála team which has proved itself so efficient in digging up new business was sent to that part of the world it is a pity that the extra expense involved was not incurred so that that market could be surveyed on the spot by people who have proved their ability to survey a market and bring back a correct analysis of its potentiality.

Also in the absence of Irish diplomatic representation in Tokyo and in the absence too of a Córas Tráchtála team I feel that it is a pity that the Department of Industry and Commerce or whichever Department is responsible has failed to take advantage of Expo 70 which will be in full swing in January next year. This will be a show window for all the nations of the world and we should take part in it—a shop window in which our industrial products, our culture and our achievements can be displayed for the consideration of the people of that area even though it may cost a little money, and money is scarce and needed for many other things. I believe that we could and we should get a satisfactory return from the display of our wares in those parts of the world in which the people have heard of us but where they have seen very little of what we can do.

I was interested to hear Senator Quinlan going like an acrobat from the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement back to the European Economic Community. Apparently he does not want us to become members of the EEC and he has no use for the Free Trade Agreement with Britain though he says at the end of his speech that we have quite good prospects across the Channel. It is very hard to know what exactly Senator Quinlan wants. His statements make it difficult for me to believe that the standards in his university are all that we would wish.

Senator Garret FitzGerald amused me very much in his remarks. They were on the same lines as the speech he made on the Electoral Reform Bill. He says that the diversification of markets was certainly the right and the proper thing to do and should have been done long ago and that it was a pity the Government did not do something about it. Is he completely oblivious of the fact that after Fianna Fáil's election to power in 1932, they did their best to find diversified markets and the Senator knows very well with how little success? He also knows that no country in the world owes us anything and that no country will give us anything for nothing if we are to put on the whinge.

We live in the 20th century and we must realise that other countries are in much the same boat as we are ourselves. They will not buy our goods just because they regard us with affection but they will buy them if they are quality goods and if the trading and freight and so on are satisfactory. Senator FitzGerald has suggested in that nice innocent way of his that it is only recently we began to explore other markets but, of course, this is nonsense.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

I did not intend to suggest that. In fact, I paid tribute to the efforts of our Governments up to 1950 in this regard. I was critical, however, of the Free Trade Area Agreement. It would appear that Senator Ó Maoláin has taken me up wrongly.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

If I misunderstood the Senator, I am very glad to hear it because I should be very surprised if a man like Senator FitzGerald was not aware of the efforts that have been made by the Government to secure alternative markets. I consider that the Free Trade Area Agreement was a good one in spite of the fact that both Senator FitzGerald and Senator Quinlan seem to find it objectionable. I would remind Senator FitzGerald and Senator Quinlan and also the House that no man is an island, that our nation cannot remain in isolation. Either we go into the European Economic Community or we get into some country east of the Iron Curtain because we will hardly get into a South American or any other such free markets.

What, therefore, does the Senator suggest? We cannot live here in the hope that other people will pay exorbitant prices for our goods and they cannot expect us to take their goods at exorbitant prices. As far as the Free Trade Area Agreement with Britain is concerned, I will say that there have been some snags but these are in the process of being ironed out and negotiations are in progress which will show up the facts of the situation on both sides. I have no doubt that the competent team of negotiators, one of whom is the Minister for Industry and Commerce, will see to it that our interests are well and properly safeguarded in the ultimate rearrangement of whatever agreements are reached when the negotiations finish.

We are very fortunate, indeed, in having an organisation like Córas Tráchtála at our disposal—an organisation which has proved itself to be a progressive and far-seeing unit for the development of business and exports. Any moneys given to them is money well spent. I wish them every success in their efforts and I assure the Minister that any help we can give them from this House will be given.

Mr. McDonald

I welcome this Bill because I believe that by and large Córas Tráchtála have been doing a very good job down through the years. However, I should like to support Senator FitzGerald's view that there should be a stepping up of efforts in regard to diversification of exports. I should also like to see a special section set up in Córas Tráchtála to handle the problems and interests of the smaller industries, especially the small family concerns. These people often think that because their volume of trade is on the small side, they do not get the same attention as the bigger industries. If there were a special section in Córas Tráchtála to look after those people they could be assured of a better service. Perhaps something on the lines of the small industrial section in the Industrial Development Authority might be excellent.

I should like to mention the farce we had here on Monday last which was called the Saint Patrick's Day parade. It is time that Córas Tráchtála took an interest in this parade since it is mainly an industrial one. It must have been a huge disappointment, and perhaps a huge joke, to the many overseas visitors who came here obviously expecting a spectacular parade, perhaps like the ones which were held in the various big cities in the world.

Surely it would not have beggared our coffers completely if we had even one small battalion or one company of troops leading the parade, or a group of Garda Síochána. One would think we were still living in Tír na nÓg. All I saw in that parade were some children and one or two bands. If we are to have export promotion we should use every possible means of displaying our wares. The industrial parade on St. Patrick's Day certainly leaves much to be desired. When the Oireachtas is now voting this additional money, I would ask the Minister to earmark a few shillings to help to put some sense of reality into the industrial parade on St. Patrick's Day. If he even provided a liaison between the various State concerns to enable them to pull their weight and make some effort it would be worthwhile.

For instance, there were many notable industries semi-State and otherwise which did not put in an appearance. Certainly one would feel ashamed that the overseas visitors had nothing to see. Perhaps there is the excuse that it comes too near the big Easter parade, but it could even be used as a dress rehearsal for the Easter parade. It would not cost that much to put in a few hundred troops and a couple of Army bands to set the stage and the pace for what should be an important shop window. Obviously RTE were ashamed of the whole thing because they only gave one or two still shots on the evening news. However, that is their affair. When we contrast our parade with the New York parade we feel quite ashamed.

I wish continued success to the activities of Córas Tráchtála. As competition is getting stiffer and stiffer, I am glad that the Minister is making provision for this organisation to continue with its good work and expand. I wish the export promotion well.

Mr. Nash

I should like to join in the tributes to Córas Tráchtála. Each and every one associated with it seems to do an excellent job. If we are to increase our exports there would seem to be a few conditions precedent. First of all our prices must be right. Having our prices right means that money for goods or services must be used to the very best advantage. That presupposes the best management. There are very many industries in this country that are struggling, or failing, or barely on the borderline, because of inefficient management.

When a Government Department are giving grants to industry, one of the precautions they should take is to ensure that that business will be properly managed. There are far too many businesses that are untidy and careless in their costings, in their various controls and in the running of their factories. I appreciate that the Government make special grants for training facilities to these businesses but, in the meantime, while the training facilities are being availed of, what is becoming of the industry? I therefore feel that on any occasion when a grant is given to subvent an industry, the Department should be assured that the industry will be subject to effective management and control and, if necessary, perhaps the industry could, in the meantime, while training some of its own staff within the industry, be facilitated by way of loans or otherwise.

When I look around at industry in Ireland I find that there are many industries employing 50 to 100 which have not got a proper costing system, have not got proper credit control, have not got proper goods control and have not got a proper system of work.

I do not at all agree with any speaker who says we should not proceed with tariff dismantlement. Not to proceed with tariff dismantlement is merely to put a premium on incompetence. Any business that is worthwhile needs a certain period to get off the ground floor, but any business that feels it should shelter behind tariffs is never going to make the effort it should, and will never be run as efficiently or effectively as it should be run.

If goods are to be sold abroad at proper prices you have to control very many more things than trade union agreements. The services which go into industry from professional men and others are a very considerable percentage of the total cost of the output. I should like to see the Government exercising control over restrictive practices or restrictive prices other than labour. These form quite a considerable amount of the input of industrial costs. It would be invidious on my part to refer to any groups of persons, but anyone with experience of industry will bring them to mind immediately.

Professor Quinlan

Which groups, for instance?

Mr. Nash

I have said I will not indulge in the invidious practice of referring to any particular groups or bodies or professions but, if the Senator has any practical experience of industry, they will immediately come to his mind.

Professor Quinlan

The Senator should be specific.

Mr. Colley

The NIEC have reported on the kind of practice about which Senator Nash is talking.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

The Third Programme has something to say about it.

Mr. Colley

It has.

Mr. Nash

A further problem that the exporting industries are running into is that certain of their raw materials are manufactured in this country, and they are not allowed to import materials for use tariff free, unless they can get a certificate from the Irish companies that are manufacturing them. Many industrialists are finding that they have to buy the raw materials in this country which they require for the goods which they propose to export and the costs are increasing so as to bring them beyond the range of competitiveness.

There is very little use to the community in having a tariff of 20 per cent on our finished products if the industrialist concerned is not taking full advantage of that tariff. In all probability his labour costs are approximately 20 per cent of the cost of the finished article so it really means the State, the ordinary citizen, is paying for that. It could be released for more productive work elsewhere. I agree with Senator Quinlan that the home market has to form a jumpingoff ground for the export market. An industry has to base itself first on the home market. Very many of the supermarkets that are starting in this country with foreign capital are not disposed to buy Irish products even when they are equally as good and equally as cheap as those imported. We must realise that many of the companies who own the supermarkets are based abroad and have other financial interests abroad. If they import from their own country, England or otherwise, they also may get export incentives.

Also, there is a company which will own a store here and a factory abroad and so arrange prices to suit themselves and have the best of both worlds. Very little observation on the part of any of us would see the abuses to which this sometimes leads. I have seen Irish biscuits sold by the half-pound. Biscuits are manufactured excellently by an Irish company and are of the best quality and are sold at a reasonable price. I have seen other biscuits on the same shelf beside them which are of foreign manufacture marked less in price. When one takes the trouble of examining them in detail one sees that the second packet has marked on it in small letters "seven ounces". This is really fraud on the community. I should like to see our Government exercising some control on large stores regarding the sale of Irish manufactured goods vis-à-vis the sale of imported goods.

Another factor which is going to have a serious bearing on our export market is the standard of our goods. Not only must the price be right but the quality must be right. In this regard I would like to pay a very sincere tribute to our Institute of Standards and Research. Like Córas Tráchtála, I found the officials, chemists and others in the Institute of Standards and Research taking a very keen, enthusiastic interest in their work. They give every advice and encouragement to the manufacturer to bring goods up to the standard at which they should be. They seem to me to take a personal pride if they succeed in getting this done.

The third thing that is essential if we are going to export is that we must keep our time schedules. That involves, in the first place, proper management, planning and programming but it also involves industrial peace. It is unfortunate that it is a trait of human nature that as a country gets better off certain latent forces are released which are not always for the better. Then and only then do we find most acutely selfishness and greed. Let me be quite clear that I do not attribute this to workers only.

If we are going to have industrial peace in this country it is going to mean a far more sincere effort on the part of the employers than many of them have made up to the moment just as it is going to mean on the part of workers that they too exercise self-discipline and when they elect their officers at the beginning of the year they will be guided and advised by them and that they will repose government in the men to whom they have paid the tribute of electing as their officers. It is going to mean co-operation between those two sections and also the man in the street, John Citizen, who is the person ultimately most upset by strike. His part in this partnership will have to be played in the Government who will have to prepare the framework in which labour and capital can meet, do a common job with mutual self respect and without losing their own respect.

Therefore, if some good can come from the legislation now being introduced by the Minister for Labour which will help to ease those personal tensions, which will help us to feel we owe a duty to one another as well as to ourselves and that by and large we owe a duty to the country, then I feel that with the assistance of good management and the assistance of Córas Tráchtála and of the Institute of Standards and Research we are well on the way to increasing very substantially our exports still more.

Mr. Rooney

This is a welcome step forward. It is money required by Córas Tráchtála to continue the work which they have been doing in assisting in the finding of markets for our exports. These are mainly industrial exports. It is a pity that we are not successful to the extent that we should be in relation to the export of goods produced in this country with native raw materials. One example is our whiskey export. It is hard to understand why we cannot increase our exports of Irish whiskey. It is very difficult to understand why we cannot increase very substantially our exports of Irish whiskey. The question is whether there is a prejudice against it. I have no doubt that the quality and standard of Irish whiskey is very high and has been produced from the best of our crops. If we could succeed in getting Irish whiskey sold to a greater extent, either on the Continent of Europe or in America, it would be a big addition to our economy.

In passing, I think we must pay tribute to those who are engaged in the production of beer in this country for their success in obtaining markets elsewhere, particularly as the production of beer is from native raw materials.

It is surprising that Scotch whisky has such a strong grip, not alone in Europe but also in America, where the Scottish distillers have a very substantial export trade. Recently I heard that Irish whiskey was not obtainable in Paris but that Scotch was. I have no doubt efforts have been made to sell Irish whiskey in these places but there must be some way of getting over the difficulty that has been encountered in selling our whiskey abroad.

I mention this because many of our industries depend on imported raw materials; therefore our economy is based on payment for a service, the service of processing imported goods and then re-exporting them. We derive benefit from this process but we have a limited number of raw materials here which would be capable of being processed from the raw state to the final product. Though it may not be the job of Córas Tráchtála to assist in this particular sphere, I feel that some effort should be made by somebody to find out why the products of our native materials are not selling as well as we would wish.

This country is capable of producing huge surpluses of food—any type of food whether it be meat or vegetables —and when we consider that half the population of the world is underfed it is difficult to understand why we cannot break into a market where those people could avail of the surplus which this country is capable of producing. For instance, this year it is possible we will have a surplus of wheat— depending on the weather—and when we consider that we will have this surplus and that the price will have to be cut on that account, it is difficult to understand why these hungry people cannot be fed by Irish wheat and why we cannot get a fair price for it. It is possible, of course, their economy is not strong enough to ensure there will be a high standard of nourishment available to the populations in those places.

The establishment of the Industrial Development Authority, who stand out as a monument in our legislation, was a logical step and has done much to assist people who are interested in going into industrial production and who are subsequently assisted by Córas Tráchtála to sell their goods. Certainly it emphasises the great departure from the policy of self-sufficiency which was enunciated for far too long by Fianna Fáil—the policy of just producing enough for ourselves and living within ourselves instead of engaging in international trade and thereby expanding our own trade.

The effects of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement on this economy make it still more important that Córas Tráchtála should be given every scope for finding markets outside Great Britain. The Free Trade Agreement has worked out very well for Great Britain compared to the benefits which have come to us. That is why we must look for markets outside Britain to balance our economy. There are many countries in Europe from whom we are importing five and six times the money value of the goods we export and I feel we ought to be able, by representation to those countries, to ensure they will see they are getting a good thing out of us in the matter of the imbalance between the goods they sell to us and those which we have up to the present been able to export to them. I know there is a trend in that direction but I think it is necessary to have the remedy effected sooner than just a normal process of trading evolution which might eventually bring something in the matter of a balance.

At this stage, I wish to mention the fact that the private enterprise economy which we have here was stimulated to a very great extent by the tax remission scheme implemented by a previous Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman. This tax remission enabled those who were interested in expanding their trade to go out themselves in search of markets. Great credit is due to those people, who before Córas Tráchtála was established, went out with their briefcases and travelled the capital cities of Europe in search of markets for the goods which their firms were capable of producing but were not yet producing goods because there was no incentive there. The tax remission plan gave them a profit incentive which suggested to them that they ought to expand their economy and get these exports, so that the private individuals did quite a lot in finding markets for a number of the goods now being exported. However, it was beyond the capacity of many private individuals and firms, and this is where the service provided by Córas Tráchtála brings the great advantages which we have enjoyed as a result of its activities.

In this connection I am wondering whether the Minister could extend the undeveloped areas grants to all over the country instead of having them in restricted areas, because there is a swing over from agricultural employment to industrial activity, which of course will create a greater need still for finding markets for the products of our factories.

Finally I should like to say to the Minister that we must face facts and with tariff barriers coming down the element of competition will become very much keener, and whatever the Minister and Córas Tráchtála can do to offset the difficulties which will be created by the lowering of the tariff barriers must be done. These barriers must come down whether we like them or not. Unfortunately the tariff levels were kept too high for too long and the incentive was not there because of that high measure of protection. The incentive was not there for people engaged in industrial exports to become efficient, and even those engaged in the manufacture of goods for home consumption failed to become properly efficient. Now with the lowering of these tariff walls and the pressure there is this need for efficiency is very critical, and many of those engaged in industrial production and presentation of their goods, packaging and all the different activities associated with the sale and distribution of goods, are all finding that with the lowering of the tariff walls and now the difficulties created by the consequences of the Free Trade Agreement it is becoming very difficult to run their businesses on a profitable basis, particularly during a time when there is industrial unrest.

An Cathaoirleach

Can we relate this matter now to the export content of the Bill?

Mr. Rooney

I am just following a point made by a previous Senator who is not in the House now in relation to industrial unrest. Peace in industry is very important so far as production is concerned and of course Córas Tráchtála's primary business is to find markets for the goods which are produced by these people who are engaged in industries.

I will just conclude by saying that this is a welcome step and that nobody could object to the provision of generous finance to this particular activity having regard to the importance of Córas Tráchtála in the matter of securing markets for the goods which we produce and which are increasing as a result of the various incentives which industry enjoys now.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

May I on a point of correction correct the statement which the previous Senator has made in regard to the futility of the illusion of the self-sufficiency policy of which he spoke? When the Fine Gael Party were thrown out in 1932 there was just enough wheat grown here to feed the people for two weeks, and we would have starved into surrender during the war if it were not for the policy which gave us 600,000 acres of wheat to provide bread for the people of Ireland.

Miss Davidson

I have no large experience of export markets but I cannot help wondering if we could do more in the line of tweed exports. In the main I can only judge what our exports are like by what is available to us at home in the home market. I could support Professor Quinlan with regard to the need for an intensive Buy Irish campaign. As a person who practises as well as preaches the principle of buying Irish I wonder do the Members of this House know how difficult it is to get a really good Irish tweed in this city. There is no shortage of Irish tweed of a kind but it is to find a really good tweed, and by that I mean in the sense of suitability for its purpose plus good colours—it is practically impossible to get such an article, and I know what I am talking about. I wear Irish material always. I succeed in procuring what are I think attractive materials, but this is the result of very, very hard searching, without any encouragement from shop assistants or from manufacturers, even buyers are not really interested in supplying requirements such as I demand. In many cases it seems to me that they do not understand or care to understand the type of fabric required for specific garments. I like bright colours in good tweeds and other Irish fabrics not always tweeds, but I would like to take some member of the Minister's Department or a member of Córas Tráchtála on a tour of the Irish shops while I am trying to find a suit length of Irish tweed. There is generally a showing of Irish materials but there is nothing like a choice of good colours. Our country is full of colour —our skies, our sunsets, our flowers, our fields—but in the main it would seem to me that it is from our peat, our turf, that our tweed designers are seeking their inspiration. Why cannot we have some tweeds in what I call in my own mind church-window colours— bright, heartening, heavenly? Is this type of tweed being produced here, and if so is it all being exported by Córas Tráchtála or are Córas Tráchtála getting their undoubtedly good results from the type of tweed available to the home consumer? If this is the case then our exports could be mightily increased if the type of tweed which I am seeking were available for export. Apart from our exports we should produce for our own consumption good bright tweeds. Our young people can hardly be blamed if they seek to satisfy their obvious desire for bright colours from foreign sources to the detriment of their own employment at home.

In regard to the sales of Irish manufactures I could go some way with Senator Quinlan but I cannot support his view that the shop assistants, the trade unionists are to blame in the selling of non-Irish goods.

Professor Quinlan

They could make a good contribution.

Miss Davidson

They have very little to say about the type of goods they are required to sell. They are simply shop assistants and they are there to sell what the management puts on the shelves for them to sell. The fault lies so with the management, not with the workers.

Professor Quinlan

The workers could do quite a bit.

Miss Davidson

The fault does not lie with the workers. I should like the Minister to take up this point in regard to the availability of tweed both on the export market and on the home market.

Mr. Dolan

Ba mhaith liom sa chead dul síos a rá go bhfuil áthas orm go bhfuil an Bille seo os ár gcóir. Aontuím leis na Seanadóirí a mhol é agus tá súil agam go rachaidh sé chun socair agus chun tairbhe na tíre, na ndaoine, gach duine idir déantúsóirí agus na daoine atá ag obair ins na monarchain, agus na feirmeóirí. Pé moladh a tugadh dos na taidhleadóirí atá ag obair ar ár son ins na tíortha thar lear, tá se tuillte go maith aca agus tuigeann an cuid is mó des na daoine sa tír seo go bhfuil sáir obair dá dhéanamh acu.

I agree fully with the terms of the Bill and I join with the other speakers in congratulating those who, in the past, have been responsible for boosting sales of our goods abroad. We have come a long way as regards Irish industry but it took many years to convince a large section of our people that we, as a nation, are capable of producing goods which are equal to, if not better than, anything obtainable abroad.

When the Fianna Fáil Government decided by way of policy that it would be necessary to create an industrial arm which would absorb our surplus manpower, they decided that the only efficient way of doing it was by the provision of industry here. At the beginning it was necessary to protect these industries because they were young and inexperienced but as soon as they were producing the good quality articles which they did produce and as soon as the people had gained confidence in them, they were ready to go into fairly free competition.

We must pay due respect to those firms who, in days gone by, did their best to convince the people that our goods were on a par with anything that was being imported. Unfortunately, there is still a certain element in our community who believe, in spite of the fact that we have progressed enormously, that the imported goods are better than our own. They should be ashamed to buy foreign goods when they can get such high quality goods here.

If we wish to sell our goods on foreign markets it is very important that we first let the outsiders see that we have confidence in our own goods. In other words, we should not ask foreigners to buy something that we ourselves would not be proud to use or wear, as the case may be.

Complaints have been made in the past regarding the large numbers of foreign shoes which are imported. I must say that we have shoe factories here which are as good as, if not better than, anything that can be bought in any other part of the world. We even find people making long journeys to obtain shoes which they believe are in some way different to our own. While they may be entitled to their opinions, it is very wrong if the same people will blame the Government if workers are not kept in industry.

Somebody mentioned the question of selling Irish whiskey abroad and I have no doubt that if the right efforts were made in this direction—I am aware that an attempt has recently been made by the distillers to sell a certain type of Irish whiskey abroad— that we would succeed. Even if our emigrants and second generation Irish people in America would drink whiskey on St. Patrick's Day alone, it would prove a tremendous boost to the sale of our whiskey there. Here at home, too, our people who drink whiskey should ensure that the whiskey they drink is home produced.

I have not paid very many visits to Cork city but on the occasions on which I was there, I was very impressed by the Cork people's attitude to anything that was made in Cork. They insisted that there was nowhere in Ireland where one could get better. Tremendous credit is due to them for the confidence which they have in the ability of their own workers to produce quality goods which they are prepared to purchase. Because of the high quality of our goods we should be able to command good markets abroad. In conclusion, I wish to congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill and I wish him every success in his efforts.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Colley)

It is obvious from the debate that the House is in agreement with the proposals contained in the Bill. A number of the contributions which have been made and a number of the points raised—I say this with due deference to the Chair and the rules of relevance of the House—were far removed from the contents of the Bill and I do not propose to speak on all of them. However, there are some that I should like to comment on. Firstly, I was very glad to hear both Senator Garret FitzGerald and Senator O'Kennedy doing their bit to kill this image which has got around of the personnel in our Irish embassies abroad being concerned with cocktail parties and the like. It just is not true. I do not know if it ever was true but it is not true now, and it is time our people realised it is not true, and that so far as trade is concerned we are getting very good value from our embassies abroad. They have many other responsibilities to carry out but, in so far as their responsibilities relate to trade, my experience is that on the whole they do an excellent job. They work very closely and in harmony with Córas Tráchtála in places abroad where there are representatives of Córas Tráchtála.

A number of references were made to the Free Trade Area Agreement. I do not propose to follow them up except to say that in references to our prospects in the EEC, and so on, we must keep in mind the fact that there is a movement towards free trade. Even if we are not going to be a member of the EEC by 1972, anyone who thinks the European idea is dead is making a big mistake. In some form it will go ahead. It may be that when we eventually obtain membership of some kind of European union it may not be the EEC as we know it today, but I believe the movement in the direction of European unity is going on and is inevitable.

Apart from that, if the movement towards free trade were to stop that, in my view, would be disastrous for this country because if we are to expand, if we are to improve the living standards of our people, if we are to provide employment for them in this country, there is only one way we can do it, and that is by increasing our trade abroad very substantially. Because our home market is so small it will not, of itself, provide the resources and jobs which we require. We are more dependent on foreign trade than almost any country in the world. That being so, we cannot expect that we will be able to avail of other people's markets without in some way reciprocating by opening our market to some extent to them. That is a fact of life with which we have to live. Our problem is not whether free trade should go further, but how we can best adapt ourselves to the movement towards free trade. That is a general comment I am making on the whole question of the Free Trade Area Agreement and the EEC.

Senator Fitzgerald referred to the possibility of an extension of the tax relief scheme. All I can say about that at the moment is that such a thing is under consideration. For the record I want to say that the statement made by Senator Fitzgerald that in recent years—I think he said within the past 20 years but I may be wrong; in recent years certainly—our foreign policy seemed to consist of not offending certain countries is wrong. I presume he meant Britain and the United States. A statement was issued by the Minister for External Affairs giving the actual details and the record of what has happened: the way we voted in the United Nations, and so on. He will see that his statement just is not true. It is rather like the image of the embassies abroad—something that can be said easily, people can accept it, but it does not conform with the facts.

With regard to the Kilkenny Design Workshops which are a subsidiary of Córas Tráchtála, I have been concerned for some time about Kilkenny. I think Senator Fitzgerald was close to the truth when he said this was something new when we started it and that it was inevitable that problems would arise which could not have been envisaged at the time of starting. That is probably what happened. I have no doubt that the contribution of the Kilkenny Design Workshops has been very substantial and valuable and it has great potential for the future. What is needed at the moment is I think a re-definition of the role of the Kilkenny Design Workshops to see whether they are equipped to carry out that role, and whether there are certain aspects of industrial design in Ireland which might perhaps be better carried out by some other body.

I have had meetings with the Board of the Kilkenny Design Workshops and I have had meetings with other people who are interested in this whole matter and who have, I believe, some view of value to contribute. I am making a general reappraisal of the whole situation in regard to Kilkenny and its role in relation to industrial design at the moment.

On the question of the turnover in the design staff in Kilkenny I agree that, on the face of it, this looks rather disturbing but I do not think the position is quite as bad as it might appear from the figures. Some people concerned had come on short term contracts and were to go anyway. Others have left to set up in business on their own and there are some other factors which do not appear just on looking at the figures of the turnover. Nevertheless the time has come for a reappraisal and that reappraisal is being carried out at present.

There seemed to be some suggestion —I think it came from Senator Quinlan —that while our performance in exports in recent years was good, it was not quite as good as it appeared from the figures because of the fall in the value of money. This may be but—and I am speaking from recollection now— I think the position is that in 1967 we increased our exports over 1966 by 15 per cent and that this, on a comparable basis, was three times the world average increase. We had the same performance in the previous year over 1965. Whichever way you look at it I think our performance in the exports field is one of which we can be extremely proud. It is not one that should lead to complacency but a performance which can hearten us for the long haul ahead. It is a long haul and, of course, the more successful we are in taking up the slack, the more difficult it is to make further progress.

This country owes a great debt of gratitude to those of our people who have been succeeding so well in the export market despite very great difficulties in a number of countries including, of course, what has been referred to here as the relatively easy market in Britain. It may be relatively easy, but there were great difficulties in recent years. Despite that our people have been performing extremely well.

While I think there is now a general appreciation of the importance of exports, I do not know that most of our people realise just how much we owe to the performance of our exporters in recent years and that, if we had not had this kind of performance, we would not be able to afford many of the services which have been introduced in recent years: improvements in our educational system and otherwise, and the standard of living of our people would be considerably lower. I am anxious that every possible commendation should be given to successful exporters in this country. They are in the front line of our battle for survival.

References were made to the Buy Irish Campaign and indeed I got a general impression from Senators that they felt there was not any such campaign at the moment, or that if there was it was of no value. Senator Quinlan thought perhaps the Government had some difficulty in openly supporting a Buy Irish Campaign while at the same time concluding and supporting free trade area agreements. I want to assure him and the House that there is no such difficulty and indeed most countries, in Europe anyway, including the EEC, have what corresponds to our Buy Irish Campaign. There is no incompatability. Senator Quinlan pointed out that we may open up this market legally to all sorts of goods but if our people choose to buy our own products they are within their rights. This is what we want our people to do. I should make it clear that we are assisting with money and otherwise the Buy Irish Campaign which is now conducted by the National Development Association which is an amalgamation of the former NAIDA and the Buy Irish Committee.

It is important we should realise there is a good deal more to the Buy Irish Campaign than exhortation to people to buy Irish. It is very well, and it is necessary to exhort them, but it is of very limited effectiveness. There is a good deal more than that needed. The House will have noticed that the campaign in recent times has not been to Buy Irish but to Buy Quality Irish. This is realistic. You cannot realistically expect that many of our people, other than those who were really dedicated and understand the problem (and they are a small minority) are going to continue to buy inferior goods because they are made in Ireland. This is just not so and it will not happen.

The campaign is properly directed on the lines of "Buy Quality Irish". We produce very high quality goods in this country as evidenced by our success in the export markets of the world. The whole problem of this campaign is a good deal more difficult and complex than that. I do not propose to go into it in detail now except to tell the House that the campaign is all the time conducting various steps other than pure exhortation and advertising to encourage the buying of quality Irish goods.

For example, they organise and conduct competitions among public companies of different kinds such as chemist shops, drapers and grocers in regard to their display windows, which they have confined to Irish goods and they award prizes. They have a very good response from shopkeepers to these competitions. Apart from the actual prize itself the prestige for a shop on winning a prize is important. They are getting a good response They also conduct competitions among shop assistants. This also is being realistic. Despite what Senator Miss Davidson said shop assistants have not got complete discretion as to what goods are available in their shops but they have discretion as to what influence they will bring to bear on customers as to home or foreign goods. It is important we should induce the people working in our shops to exercise that discretion. Apart from what is being done by the National Development Association I myself have persuaded the Federation of Irish Industries and the Federation of Trade Associations to come together and to get the manufacturers and distributors together. Committees have been set up in regard to different sectors and valuable work is done by these committees. Further committees are being formed

The basic thing behind this and accepted by both sides is that manufacturers and distributors each has a vested interest in the success of the other. If Irish manufacturers are going to lose to foreign competition in the home market then the distributors in the long run are going to lose due to the loss of employment for people in industry. It is important that the manufacturer should be in close touch with the distributor as to what customers want. The distributors are trying to ensure that they will give a better service to the customer. There have been valuable developments from this. It is an important contribution to the effort to improve and strengthen the position of the sale of Irish-made mer chandise in this country.

Professor Quinlan

They do not seem to get it across to the public?

Mr. Colley

Exhortation is important, but experience shows us it is not enough. It is of very limited effect. It is on other levels one has to work to get permanent effect. I agree with the point made by Senator Quinlan with regard to the trade unions. There is liaison and there is a member of the trade union congress on the NDA. Efforts have been made to co-ordinate here but I doubt whether the NDA or the Congress would say at this stage that anything like the full potential has been utilised in this regard. As Senator Quinlan pointed out it is a vital matter for every trade unionist in this country. It is a matter of self-preservation, if nothing else. If the influence of the members of trade unions could be brought to bear effectively in this campaign it would make a tremendous difference. Efforts have been made and these efforts are being stepped up for the future and the further stepped up the better I like it. There is a very important potential here that has not been fully exploited yet.

With regard to what has been said by Senator Ó Maoláin I would like to tell him that Córas Tráchtála did in fact send a representative to Japan a few years ago to examine that market. He may have been under the impression that we made no effort at all in that regard. With regard to Expo 70 the position is it is not a question of this being a valuable, and very valuable, showplace for Irish goods and culture and anything else of the Irish way of life one wants to demonstrate there. It is a very valuable way. That is not disputed. The question so far as Córas Tráchtála are involved is would the expenditure which would be fairly considerable, give a return which would be as much as, if not better than, the return on spending that money in other ways?

Like everybody else Córas Tráchtála have to operate within a limited budget and have to get the best return on the money made available to them. The return by participation in Expo 70 would not be as good a return on the money as it would if the money were invested in other ways. Of course, this does not mean that it is not a very valuable operation.

I would inform Senator McDonald that the new export programme which Córas Tráchtála have been conducting for about a year is aimed very much at the small firms. Meetings have been organised and held by Córas Tráchtála throughout the country to which firms deemed to be capable of exporting, but not yet exporting, were invited. Every effort has been made to induce these firms to get into the export market. If they show any interest at all in exporting they are taken by the hand into the export market and looked after until they get on their feet. There is no question of Córas Tráchtála not investing in the small firm. They also assist very small firms, who are exporting or who have a potential for exporting, under the Small Industries Programme operated by the IDA.

With regard to Senator Nash's remarks, though he was asked to be more specific about this I do not think it is necessary, because there are several matters on record and sufficient support in the NIEC report to show that there are at least grounds for apprehension that restrictive practices among professional people may be inhibiting our industrial growth and our export growth. In fact, there is a reference to this in the Third Programme: Economic and Social Development 1969-72, recently published, where it will be seen that the Government have in mind the reference of these matters to the Fair Trade Commission and to the expanding of the terms of reference of the Fair Trade Commission to go into these matters.

Senator Nash also referred to the cost of raw materials on goods produced behind tariffs which are pushing up the cost of our goods for the export markets, but I think he may be misinformed about this. The position is that any raw material required for export products is admitted free of duty, so that nobody can say our tariff barriers are pushing up the cost of goods for the export market.

Mr. Nash

If I may interrupt the Minister, what happens is that when a firm manufacture for the home market and the export market, the raw materials are bought in bulk and the whole lot is paid together. Consideration is not taken of the fact that some of these raw materials are to be re-exported, and this means that too much is being paid for raw materials for goods which are to be re-exported.

Mr. Colley

I appreciate the point which Senator Nash is making. With regard to the point made by Senator Miss Davidson, I do not profess to be an expert on either the quality or colours of tweeds, but I have seen Irish tweeds—I must confess I have seen them abroad—which have been extremely impressive. I have heard buyers and directors of large exclusive stores abroad rave about the quality and the colours of Irish tweeds. I can only come to the conclusion, though I do not know that this is so, that many of these may not be available on the home market.

Miss Davidson

They cannot be.

Mr. Colley

If, as Senator Miss Davidson says, they are not available on the home market, it is true in regard to certain commodities—though I do not know if it is true of tweeds— that the best we produce are never seen by our own people at home because they are sold on the export market. This may be a little unfair, but it is a form of economic discipline which has to be exercised. Indeed, if we had the same kind of discipline in other areas of our economic growth I think the country would be a lot better off. I have, however, noted the complaint of Senator Miss Davidson and I will look into it to see what the position is and to see if anything can be done to improve it.

Miss Davidson

Thank you very much.

Mr. Colley

Senator Ó Donnabáin referred to the number of foreign shoes in this country and the fact that people go out of their way to buy them. I have discovered that a lot of people seem to believe that there are an awful lot of foreign shoes on sale in this country, but unless they are being smuggled in on a very substantial scale, this is not true. The reason people think this is so is probably because these shoes are displayed very prominently in shops, particularly in Dublin, at very high prices, and, I suppose, this makes them stick in people's minds. In actual fact the total number of shoes imported represents about 4 per cent of the total market for shoes in this country, so that the numbers are relatively small.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Does that figure include both men's and women's shoes?

Mr. Colley

Yes. Another point referred to by Senator Ó Donnabháin is the number of people abroad, either Irish or of Irish descent, who have a feeling of goodwill towards Ireland, which should be harnessed. This is a common misconception. Of course this goodwill does exist, but to exploit this from the point of view of exports is not as simple a matter as one might think. As I see it the position is that we must have top quality merchandise, and if we then have the Irish sentiment in its favour this is a plus factor, but that is all it is.

When one examines in detail how one might channel this, one sees that one has to sell almost all the merchandise we export to the United States through stores or shops and even if these stores could say that 50 per cent of their customers are of Irish descent, they must cater for all their customers and they must do so on the basis of quality and not sentiment. If we can give them the quality goods and then find that 50, 20 or 10 per cent of their customers have a sentimental bias in favour of Irish goods this is where the plus comes in, but we cannot exploit this commercially without producing top quality goods.

One other matter I want to refer to is the talk of the diversification of our exports from the British market. I do not want to dwell on the necessity for this. Everybody in this House understands its importance. What I do want to say is that following on the imposition of the British import deposit scheme I had a meeting with the Federation of Irish Industries, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the chairmen of the various adaptation councils to talk to them about the situation which was developing, and in particular to stress the vital importance which was then being underlined by what the British had done on diversification.

I got some suggestions from them as to things that might be done and as a result Córas Tráchtála produced additional schemes, additional to the existing schemes, designed to assist the diversification of exports and made every effort to communicate the details of these new schemes to all our exporters. I do not think that I need burden that House now with details of what these new schemes are, but if any Senator is particularly interested I will be glad to make the details available to him or her. I do not think that there is anything further that I need say except to thank the Senators for their reception of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages now.