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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 1969

Vol. 66 No. 15

Housing Bill, 1968: Committee and Final Stages.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill".

The matter to which I wish to refer crops up in a number of sections and, from one point of view, it does not crop up in this section. However, I trust you will give me your permission to deal with it now, Sir, because the word "permission" is involved. Indeed it occurs 19 times throughout the Bill. On four occasions it is not qualified by either the definite or the indefinite article, on four occasions it is qualified by the definite article and on 11 occasions by the indefinite article.

In the first line of section 3 there is reference to "a permission". This struck me as being a use of the word which I had not noticed before — using the word "permission" in this way, qualified by the "a" as if it were a permanent thing. I had the curiosity to look up dictionaries. The Greater Oxford Dictionary makes a habit of quoting examples of use of words, going away back to medieval times. Oddly enough, under the word “permission”. none of the examples they quote includes this type of use; that is, “a permission” does not occur in any of the examples.

I am not suggesting that never in English literature or in Acts of Parliament does this not occur but, oddly enough, the Greater Oxford Dictionary does not refer to any of these, if it does occur. My first thought was that if it would have been preferable in other sections where “a permission” is used to use “a permit” because permission is the act of permitting whereas a permit is a written order giving permission. I realise that, because in section 4 (5), permission may, so to speak, be granted by default. In other words, if an applicant seeks permission and hears nothing during a period of five weeks he may then assume the permission to have been granted.

If the word "permit" were used where "a permission" is used I can see there would have been a difficulty because somebody who did not get a written permit could under the Act claim to have a permission, but he would have nothing to show for it. While I am quibbling about the unusual use of "a permission", I am inclined to agree its use is a very sensible thing because it avoids difficulty over the use of "permit" which is a written instrument whereas "permission" is something which may be got by default. I am wondering how much was intentional and how much purely accidental in this usage. I would have thought it would have been a good idea where "permission" appears without the article to have used "a permission" at all times. In section 2 it looks all right—it does not affect anything else—but in section 3 the use is "a permission" whereas section 4 (1) states:

(1) Where an application is made to a housing authority in accordance with section 3 for permission for the demolition in whole or in part of any habitable house or the use of any such house otherwise than for human habitation, the authority may grant, subject to or without conditions, or refuse the permission.

It is not "for a permission" as in section 3. Even if it is a departure from normal practice, it would have been clearer if "a permission" were used throughout. This would not rule out "the permission" because it is quite clear there is nothing unusual in such use, but because "a permission" is used extensively it would have been better if it were used in section 2.

Subsection (1) (a) reads:

the demolition, either in whole or in part, other than a demolition for the purpose of providing an extension or other improvement or for the purpose of carrying out works of maintenance,

This paragraph means that permission will not be required if the demolition is for the purpose of providing an extension. I can imagine a situation in which a house is bought beside another house and about which one can say: "I bought these two houses. I want to demolish one of them for the purpose of providing an extension to the other one". As I read this paragraph, that lets the owner out. The permission is not required if the demolition is for the purpose of providing an extension. It could seem to be an easy way of getting through the Act simply to buy two or three houses and to say: "I am pulling down one or two of these houses for the purpose of building an extension, or for some other improvement and in that case I do not need permission." I find that unsatisfactory. I should like the Minister's opinion about this point. Permission is not required under paragraph (b) of subsection (1) which reads:

the use otherwise than for human habitation, of any habitable house.

One does not need permission to demolish when he is using a habitable house for some use other than human habitation.

It is the other way about. Permission shall be required in respect of

the use otherwise than for human habitation, of any habitable house.

The Minister is quite right. I misread that. In that case I have no objection to this and my criticism on that point falls. It is related to the definition of habitable house because the definition which we have in section 1 is rather vague. Section 1 reads:

"Habitable house" means a house situate in the functional area of a housing authority other than a house in relation to which a housing authority have made a closing order."

which means a house which, in the opinion of the housing authority, is reasonably fit for human habitation or capable of being rendered so fit at a reasonable expense. Such a definition could be defended but perhaps it could be improved. It seems rather vague.

Section 2 (3) contains the penalties:

Any person who contravenes subsection (2) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.

The sum of £100 in relation to the sums of money involved in demolition and so-called development in the City of Dublin does not seem very much. A continuing clause states:

(together with, in the case of a continuing offence, a further fine not exceeding ten pounds for every day on which the offence is continued) or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or to both the fine and the imprisonment.

I am not quite sure what a continuing offence is in relation to demolition. Does this mean that every day during which the developer keeps hacking away at the building which he is demolishing? Some buildings are knocked down pretty quickly these days. Does the offence continue when the building is knocked down? Does this mean that the developer can be fined £10 each day he is pounding away at the building, but once it is knocked flat he can no longer be fined? I should like to hear the Minister's views on this point of the continuing offence in relation to demolition. Often, buildings are knocked flat in a matter of days. If a man is to be fined £10 per day so long as the offence is continued, the fine does not seem sufficient. The penalties, apart from the possibility of six months imprisonment, are not commensurate with the offence, which could mean the demolition of some of our finest buildings not only in Dublin but also in other parts of Ireland. The penalty mentioned here would not frighten the big developer. He would pay it and go ahead with the demolition.

With regard to the question which Senator Sheldon raised of "a permission" it seems that this terminology has been used in other measures. It is widely used in the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act. The word "permission" is used in this sense and both definite and indefinite articles are prefixed to it. There is some difference between sections 2 and 3. Section 2 refers to permission which "shall be required" in respect of demolition, whereas section 3 refers to "a permission" under this Act. To say that "a permission" will be required does not seem to be necessary. There would not be any objection to doing that.

In section 4 there is a reference to section 3 and the word "a" is left out.

Section 4 reads:

(1) Where an application is made to a housing authority in accordance with section 3 for permission for the demolition in whole or in part of any habitable house ...

Possibly it might be neater there but I do not imagaine it is of any great significance. It is not of legal significance that "a" is not there. It might just as well be there. The Bill is not in any way adversely affected by the fact that it is not there. It hardly seems necessary to go through the procedure of amending the Bill in order to put it in.

I am not prepared to go to the stake for it.

That is the way it has been drafted and I do not think it weakens the Bill. The word "permit" seems to me to have acquired a somewhat different connotation, more or less a licence to do something. A building permit as it has come to be understood refers to a licence to do something which would normally be unrestricted but is restricted because of some shortage of supply or something like that. It is possibly for that reason that this usage of the word permission has grown up but it certainly has been used in this way in other Acts. It seems to me to be well established in regard to usage.

With regard to the question under section 2, subsections (1) (a) that permission is not required for demolition for the purpose of extension. First of all, I would like to point out that this extension of a habitable house would have to be for the purpose of human habitation. If the site continues to be used as it is with no change of user there does not seem to be any objection but planning permission would still be required for the erection of the extension itself. It can only be for the extension of a house as human habitation. The fine of up to £100 is fairly small I agree but this is the maximum fine which can be imposed on summary conviction. There is also the further fact that planning permission for development cannot be given unless permission under this Act is obtained first so that would appear to me a very substantial reason inhibiting anybody from demolishing a house in contravention of this Bill we are dealing with here today.

The continuing offence, as I understand it, refers to the change of user. As long as the premises or site is used for a purpose other than human habitation the offence under this Bill continues. That certainly is my understanding of it and therefore such a person would be liable to this continuing fine for every day on which there is a change of user of the site and building which was illegally demolished. In any case, as I say, £100 is the maximum fine which can be imposed on summary conviction and the main function under this is the fact that planning permission cannot be given for development of the site unless permission under this Bill has been obtained in the first place.

Arising out of the Minister's reply, first of all, he tells the House under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) permission does not have to be provided if the developer or a demolisher is providing an extension and so on. He tells us such an extension would have to be only for human habitation. I do not see that in the section before us. The section does not deal only with human habitation. It deals with various types of demolition so I do not think the Minister can be correct in this. It does not apply only to extension for human habitation. Certainly I do not see anything in this section which suggests that.

The second point is that the Minister says that this fine in subsection (3) which applies to people who contravene subsection (2), although small, is one which is the highest amount which can be prescribed on summary conviction and he says that this applies only on change of user, change of usage of the house. I do not think this is so because subsection (2) says:

A person shall not carry out any demolition or cause or permit any change of use of a house in respect of which permission is required under subsection (1).

So, this implies not only a change of use but also the method of demolition so I do not think the Minister can be correctly informed when he says this applies only to change of use.

I am talking about the continuing offence of £10 a day.

The only type of offence which can be a continuing offence would be the continuing change of use. In other words the £10 a day could not apply to demolition.

It would also apply if demolition extended over a period.

This in practice would put a premium on swift demolition. I cannot feel that this is satisfactory. I do not feel this Bill is sufficient to deal with people who are going to charge ahead with demolition and who possibly would be prepared to pay the £100 fine. I cannot see that this is satisfactory.

I am not convinced that paragraph (a) applies only to houses intended for human habitation. I do not think this paragraph or any other subsection of the section makes that clear.

I wish to support Senator Sheehy Skeffington on this. As far as I know the limit of £100 maximum for summary conviction has prevailed for at least 25 or 30 years, in fact since the State was founded. In fact it is a continuing anomaly which should be adjusted to keep the money values and the penalties in accordance with the time.

In the Housing Bill?

This Housing Bill is an enabling measure. The fact that this limit still operates means that steps should be taken in future legislation to adjust this and make it more flexible. In the case of penalties here I feel the penalty should bear a relation to the property which is being demolished. After all, if it was only a shanty £100 might be a lot but if it was ultimately paving the way for some type of office block or something else £100 would be just a mere stamp on the transaction. I feel it would be better in such cases that the penalty should have some relationship to a percentage of the value.

Of course, also at the discretion of the court a term of imprisonment, not exceeding six months, can be imposed, or both a penalty and a term of imprisonment. So far as the question of demolition being only for the extension for use of human habitation, the section states:

...permission shall be required under this Act in respect of:—

(a) the demolition, either in whole or in part, other than a demolition for the purpose of providing an extension or other improvement or for the purpose of carrying out works of maintenance, and

(b) the use otherwise than for human habitation of any habitable house.

It seems to me obvious that this would not cover the demolition of a habitable house for the purpose of erecting an extension on anything else or, indeed, for the purpose of erecting the extension of another habitable house and that it must be both the demolition and the extension obviously refer to the same habitable house.

I think what the Minister says here is quite correct, but I am afraid there is a possibility of ambiguous reading here. I read the words "of any habitable house" as applying only to paragraph (b) but I can see now that they are capable of being read as applying to the whole subsection. In the present layout this could be taken as meaning the end of the sentence in paragraph (b).

I think it would have continued along the same lines.

I see that point and certainly on the Minister's interpretation he is quite right. I do not know whether there is really ambiguity or whether I stupidly misunderstood it.

This Bill deals with habitable houses and this is the purpose of the Bill. It is not dealing with someone knocking down one office block and putting up another one. It is to control the use of houses that are habitable to ensure that they are not turned to some other use. Senator Sheehy Skeffington talked about an extension which might take in another house, but section 2 is subject to section 9 which clarifies the point that you may not disturb someone else. There does not appear to be any reason why, if there is an empty house, one may not use it as an extension of one's own house. The point is that you may not disturb some person and leave him without a house in the process. This is to preserve as far as possible houses which may continue to be used, and to make sure that they are continued to be used for human habitation. I do not think the Bill is intended to go any wider than that.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill".

Am I correct in interpreting section 3 as a permissive section which will enable the Minister actually to disregard the basic purpose of this Bill which refers to the disruption or the demolition of habitable dwellings? Does this section give the Minister discretion to permit the demolition of such dwellings?

There is a right of appeal to the Minister against a refusal of permission.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill".

Section 4 also refers to permission for demolition or use, otherwise than for human habitation, of a habitable house. Apparently there is a section which deals with the possibility of having the structure converted and turned either into office accommodation or flats. Does that refer to conversion either to flats or office accommodation?

A person may apply to the housing authority for permission and what this section says is that the housing authority may grant it, subject to or not subject to conditions, or the housing authority may refuse it. The whole purpose of the Bill is "to require".

I understood the purpose of the Bill was to deal with the question of demolishing habitable houses.

Through the housing authorities.

But running right through this Bill there is a right of appeal. There are options open to the person who wishes to destroy a habitable dwelling. He has an opportunity of appealing to the Minister. Although the basic purpose of the Bill is to preserve habitable houses all these options give an opportunity for defeating the basic purpose of the Bill.

This section involves the amending of permission for the demolition or for the use, other than for habitation, of a habitable house. Application is made to the housing authority in the area and permission is granted by them. In other words, there is upward of 30 housing authorities involved. Naturally, there must be the right of appeal from this and I can sympathise with both the Minister's and the Government's concern to have a certain amount of uniformity in the handling of this; but I think that the provision for appeal that is made here in subsection (6) (b) is totally inadequate because no machinery is set up for the consideration of appeals other than the Minister making a decision as if the application had been made to him in the first instance.

There does not appear to be any onus on the Minister to hear why the local housing authorities refused to give the permission. In this case, not alone must justice be done but justice must be seen to be done and when you are dealing with 30 bodies surely there should be some judiciary type of review body set up for the reviewing of these appeals instead of treating the appeals, as the Bill says, as if an application were made to the Minister in the first instance—as if the housing authority had never come into the picture.

I feel the housing authority should be present at the appeals to present their side of it, and the Minister likewise or whichever review body you have to hear the appeal and judge on it and subsequently publish all these very serious cases where the Minister has gone over the heads of the local bodies because it undermines confidence in the justice and impartiality of the local bodies. I feel that the local bodies, being closer to local pressures, would in most instances err on the side of leniency.

If there is need for a review on a national basis the right of the Minister or of the Review Board to query a local decision that had been given positively can be questioned. As it is put down here, the section solves noth-in and will leave the whole situation open to the same charges that all planning is open to at the moment— the charge that political influence can be used to over ride the decision of local authorities. That is very bad and it is a situation that we wish to get away from.

Subsection (2) of this section reads:

... the housing authority shall have regard to the state of repair of the house to which the application relates and to the adequacy of the supply of housing available in their functional area.

Under the Definition of "housing authority" in section 1, we read that the

"housing authority" means, in the case of a town having commissioners under the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854, the council of the county in which the town is situate.

Therefore, we find that a town having commissioners would not act separately but that their area goes in with the general county. I am thinking of the size of my own county, for instance. If, say, I wish to demolish a house in Malin while the housing situation in Ballyshannon were very bad and if the Minister should have power to make regulations dealing with what area might be taken into this entire county, it would seem to be going a bit far. I suppose this would work all right in cities and larger towns but I cannot see it operating in a rural area and I do not think that it would work fairly.

Section 4 is rather long and complex but it does say in the first subsection that:

Where an application is made to a housing authority in accordance with section 3 for permission for the demolition in whole or in part of any habitable house or the use of any such house otherwise than for human habitation, the authority may grant, subject to or without conditions, or refuse the permission.

Arising out of that we have subsection (6) (a) which reads that:

Any person to whom a permission under subsection (1) has either been refused or granted subject to conditions may, at any time before the expiration of the period of three weeks beginning on the day on which he is notified of the decision, appeal to the Minister against the decision.

I agree with Senator Quinlan that this is unsatisfactory. If a housing authority has decided either to impose conditions or to refuse permission for demolition the Minister should not have the right to override the representatives of the people living in the area. I am a great believer in giving as much autonomy as possible to local authority representatives. Local representatives and local people are best situated in relation to a demolition decision. If their local representatives decide to refuse permission for demolition or to impose certain conditions, we should not give the Minister the right to override that decision. I am not saying that any particular Minister is likely to abuse such power but I do not consider that it would be fair or equitable to grant one man, in this case the Minister, the right to reverse a carefully considered decision by the representatives of the people in the area. It is one of the points upon which accusations of abuse of power are sometimes levelled against Ministers.

When the Minister is replying he might let me know whether it will be the county manager who will act as the local authority?

It is quite clear from this section that the Minister is bound to have regard to the same considerations as the housing authority is. With regard to Senator Sheldon's point about the demolition of a house at one end of Donegal, in Malin, for instance, it would hardly be likely to be relevant to a shortage of houses in Ballyshannon. The local authority can be depended upon to take the view that the existence of an empty house in Malin would hardly contribute to the relief of a housing shortage in Ballyshannon. We must assume that they will, in fact, consider the question of the supply of houses in their area in an intelligent way.

I expected this reaction with regard to the fact that the appeal is laid down to be the Minister but it is not anticipated that there will be a lot of these appeals and it seems reasonable to have a short and expeditious appeal procedure. An appeal to the courts or to a legal tribune would be out of proportion to what is required. With regard to the other point made by Senator Sheldon as to whether the housing authority would be the county manager, the answer is yes.

The Minister is satisfied but I am not that since in paragraph (b) of subsection (6) it says that:

Where an appeal is taken under this subsection from a decision of a housing authority and is not withdrawn, the Minister shall determine the application as if it had been made to him in the first instance...

The Minister is satisfied that in this case the Minister of the day is bound to have regard to the same considerations as the local authority. I am not quite sure of what the Minister means by that. The mere fact that one man, namely, the Minister, is to be given all this power to reverse a decision of the housing authority is in itself bad no matter now virtuous and well advised and well intentioned that man may be. This is the principle of dictatorship. There is the concept of the benevolent dictator with the good of the community and of the country in his mind, and this might be the case with the Minister concerned, but I am not satisfied that we should give this power to the Minister simply to override the decision of a local authority to refuse demolition permission for what seemed to them a perfectly good reason even if the Minister reviews this request and then decides off his own bat to reverse it. I think this is giving too much power to one man and that it would be much better to have some kind of tribunal, judicial or not, not just one person.

I have introduced in the Dáil a Bill to provide a Planning Appeals Tribunal. It seems to me to be desirable to do so, but I do not anticipate that the same need will exist in respect of this Act. If it does then it would be as well to have some experience of how the Planning Appeals Tribunal works before we decide if a similar procedure is necessary in regard to appeals under this Bill.

Arising out of the Minister's reply I would like to know this: there is no obligation on the Minister to ascertain why a local housing authority refused permission: would the Minister feel that in any investigation he would have to get their reason?

Of course, yes.

Secondly, the Bill shows a very grandiose concept in referring to the county manager as the local housing authority. The term "local housing authority" seems to imply some type of a collective body, not a one-man concept. I took it on reading this that there was something more than just one man involved. Surely we should either call him the county manager here or if the phrase is to be "a local housing authority" in general it should be more than one man, which becomes a reversal then even in the present case and more difficult still and more dangerous, because it seems the Minister could actually reverse the decision of the county manager and therefore it could again be something undermining his authority, which is something that should not be done without some type of judicial body. I welcome the Minister's assurance, and I have already read about this new appeal body which he hopes to set up. I would urge him at the earliest possible opportunity to see that these and other appeals are brought within the scope of that body.

I am satisfied that the term "housing authority" is properly used here. There is a procedure whereby the elected council can override a decision of the manager if they feel that the facts would warrant it. Therefore they can in fact come into it, but this type of decision is obviously not the type of decision a council is fitted to be carrying out in normal cases, but in particular cases where the elected members feel that the manager's decision is not the right one there is a procedure whereby it can be overuled.

Arising out of the Minister's reply does this mean that the local county council can in fact override a manager's decision in regard to this Bill?

The Minister may be called on to override the decision of the council again?

It could be. This is often very necessary in planning cases. In some particular council areas the elected councillors seem to have fairly scant regard for the development plans and so on, and there are a number of planning appeals from certain areas which come before me as a result of appeals taken by bodies such as Bord Fáilte, An Taisce and so on against decisions which were made by the exercise of this authority by the elected members of the council.

The present Act does not give permission to appeal to the Minister against a decision by the county council or the local authority in the granting of permission.

That is right. They will still have that function in regard to any planning proposal in respect of a site. This is purely a housing matter, and these bodies do not concern themselves with housing, which is a matter for the housing authority.

This is a rather long section, and there are one or two points I would like to make. Subsection (4) would have been easier to read if in the last few lines there had been an extra couple of commas. This is one long sentence and it does get complicated towards the end. In the fourth last line I would suggest a comma after "and" and again in the second last line after "condition". That is a clause which really stands by itself. It makes it very difficult reading which you have to read it all through in this way. However that is by the way. Under subsection (5) there is a question of the five weeks when things come into operation. I notice that the five weeks may be extended by the housing authority asking for further particulars, and it seems to me that the delay could be much longer than would appear at first sight, by the housing authority continuing to ask for further particulars. There is no indication how long they may go on asking for further particulars or if they can go on asking. I take it from the wording that the decision is as to whether or not the notices have been complied with rests entirely with the housing authority. There does not appear to be any question here of any way of appealing against the decision in the appropriate period.

In that case there would be jurisdiction by the courts.

I think that there is a practical limit to the amount of delay that could be imposed by looking for further particulars, and it is reasonable to assume that the housing authority will not be unreasonable in this respect, I think. Obviously the way to get over this is to give full particulars at the start.

With regard to subsection (9)?

There have not been a lot of complaints about that. Sometimes they may look for further particulars, but it has not been abused anyway.

I must confess that I cannot see how you can have a limited period of time and then subsection (9) brings the Planning Act in, that a person shall not be entitled solely by reason of a permission under this section to carry out any works or use a house otherwise than as a dwelling.

That is right. There would still have to be planning permission obtained for change of use. This only deals with demolition.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill".

May I begin by asking why "a housing authority" is being put in the plural. This continuing process of putting collective things in the plural I object to. The first line of the section says "where a housing authority are of opinion..." and I would infinitely prefer "is of opinion", and "its decision", not "their decision". This is becoming an increasing habit.

The expressions "the Government are" and "the Corporation are" are used.

I do not approve of that either. The sense of collective responsibility disappears with the use of the plural. I find section 5 very confusing. It is not the only confusing part of the Bill. I could not get the times referred to here with regard to a reinstatement notice straightened out. The notice must specify a time of not less than 28 days beginning on the date of service of the notice.

Would the Senator read out the first subsection?

I do not see why I should. I trust everyone has a copy of the Bill.

It should be on the record.

I would not deprive the Senator of reading it. The operative date here is the date of service of the notice. Subsection (2) states that a reinstatement notice shall become operative on the expiration of the period ending 21 days after the date of the service of the notice. The time which is allowed to run from a date on which the reinstatement notice has not become operative is extremely confusing.

I cannot see why this provision is inserted about the reinstatement notice becoming operative. It appears to become operative the moment the notice is given. To add to the confusion there is a reference at subsection (1) to the period within which an appeal may be made under section 72 of the Act of 1966. This is an appeal made by virtue of section 8 as referred to in subsection (2). I am wondering why this long phrase about section 72 of the Act of 1966 is brought in whereas in subsection (2) there is no more than a reference to the appeal made by virtue of section 8. That refers to the Act of 1966 and the amendments. It seems to make confusion more confounded.

The position as to whether the house is being deliberately made unfit for human habitation would depend on a report from the engineer in charge, and in a secondary way on a report from the medical officer of health. Therefore it highlights the fact that this euphemous character called the housing authority meaning the county manager making this decision on his own. It pinpoints a single person too much. It is a matter in which the county manager, the county engineer and the county medical officer should all have a say. If an authoriy was to be called a housing authority it should consist at least of the county manager, the county engineer and the county medical officer of health. Their decision should then be final and should not be capable of being upset by action of the county council. It should, of course, be subject to appeal to a properly constituted appeals commission. I am appealing for the restoration to their proper place of the county engineer and the county medical officer of health in the determination of county affairs. If an authority is mentioned these people should be in it as full members. Otherwise what is meant should be put down, which is that the county manager acting on his own omniscience either with or without reports as he sees fit.

Would not Professor Quinlan think about a county engineer when he gets a housing report? The county manager just sits down and gives permission. Perhaps Professor Quinlan should act on a local authority.

Why should the persons involved not be set out? If the housing authority is the county manager alone he does not necessarily have to consult anyone or take their opinions. In point of fact why not let those involved be seen to be involved? If an unfavourable decision was given it would be easier for those concerned, than that the county manager alone should be blamed.

This seems to be a very undemocratic section. It says that the housing authority may compel the owner of a private dwelling to spend his money on that dwellinghouse in order to make it fit for human habitation. The section goes on to say that if he does not do so the housing authority will do it and charge the cost to him. This clause does not respect the right to private ownership at all. It says that the council may compel a man to make his private house habitable. In other words he is not allowed to own a house which may deteriorate because he cannot afford to make it habitable or to maintain it. I would like to ask the Minister whether at line 28 the word "on" should read "or"? Is it not "or any other person having an interest"?

I should like the Minister's views on this question of the respect for private ownership of property. Apparently, if this unfortunate man cannot afford to maintain his house or to spend money making it habitable he can be compelled by the housing authority to do so or they can move in and do this work making him responsible for the cost of the renovations.

On Senator Sheldon's point, the reference to 28 days in the service of notice is a provision to ensure that a notice served cannot require the work to be done in a period of less than 28 days from the date on which it was issued. The section provides that a person may appeal within 21 days. If he does appeal, the notice lapses until the appeal is determined. If he does not appeal within 21 days the notice becomes operative and he must execute the works. The provision is that there cannot be a requirement to execute the works within a lesser period than 28 days.

Senator Quinlan dealt with this question of including engineers and the medical officer of health. In fact an assistant engineer or a building inspector could have dealt with the matter. I would have to incorporate all these in the Bill. So far as I can see Professor Quinlan is asking that the elected members should not have any power whatever. In a prior section he was objecting because the elected members were not given the full duty under the Bill.

This is a question of fact and of justice.

Under this Bill an owner may be required by a housing authority to put his property into reasonable repair. I suppose it is possible to look on this as being undemocratic but in fact the primary purpose of the Bill is to deal with the type of disreputable character which some people say exists in quite large numbers. Others think there are not so many cases but to deal with the type of person who deliberately allows a sound and habitable house to deteriorate into such a condition that permission for re-development is obviously necessary. The whole purpose of the Bill is to prevent that type of thing happening, to give the housing authority power to prevent that type of thing happening. Whether it has happened in the past it is obviously something which could very well happen.

The whole provisions of a development plan requiring areas which are intended as residential accommodation could be circumvented by deliberately allowing sound property to deteriorate. We have in regard to this to allow housing authorities to take action. We have to assume that housing authorities will act in a reasonably responsible manner and that they will not unreasonably require people to put houses that have obviously gone beyond their period of usefulness into repair at an uneconomic cost. The power is obviously necessary as I say to deal with cases where the law of the land is circumvented by people allowing or indeed causing their property to deteriorate until it becomes an uneconomic proposition to restore it. This in fact is one of the primary purposes of this Bill.

There is one point on section 5 and something similar occurs in section 6. In this case it is a private person that is involved. At the end of subsection (1) they are given power to enter on any land. I take it that that means a neighbour's land. There is no question of compensation for damage done to some other person's land. In an earlier section it was taken that anyone making alterations would have to do it in such a way as not to interfere with a neighbour's house or adjoining property but here they are given power to go in on any land which I take it means any surrounding land to carry out any work. What about the question of compensation? I would take a dim view if somebody with a ladder put it on top of a flower bed in my garden.

If there is nowhere else to put a ladder except on a flower bed that is where it would have to go. I would imagine the question of compensation is fairly well covered already. If you are going to require a person to do work which necessitates him putting a ladder on somebody else's land I am afraid you have to give him permission to do that.

How far does entry go? Supposing part of this work incurred demolition to carry out repairs, which is permissible under this Bill, something could fall on another person's property. I am sure compensation is available but there is no mention of it here.

This power exists in the Housing Acts in respect of repair to houses and the matter of compensation for any damage done is a matter between the two individuals concerned.

I want to refer on this section to the significance of the word "may". In other words, a housing authority may require that the house may be made habitable but equally well it may not and in such a case does this house become a derelict building and under the Derelict Buildings Act must be removed.

If they are of the opinion that the person had done this deliberately it would seem the word should be "shall" instead of "may".

I do not think we in this House could know the circumstances of every case and it seems to me the only body which would be competent to make a decision which must be a matter of judgment in individual cases would be the housing authority. It is obviously something which must be left to their discretion. After all they would know each individual case.

It seems to me putting in "may" in this section instead of "shall" is defeating the purpose of the section.

There could be a doubt in their minds as to whether they should require a person to do those works or not although there might be no doubt in their minds as to the purpose of allowing a building to deteriorate but they might still feel there were special circumstances that would make it undesirable for a person to do it which might not be within their financial and physical capacity to do it. The housing authority must have discretion in the matter.

When the Minister is giving power to the housing authority to compel the owner of this property to spend his money making the premises habitable would the Minister not consider giving power to the housing authority also to negotiate the purchase of the house?

They have that.

It is not in this Bill.

There is no need to put it in this Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 6 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Question proposed: "That section 9 stand part of the Bill".

In this section I notice that in subsection (1), we are told:

This Act shall not apply to the demolition in whole or in part or the use otherwise than for human habitation of any habitable house where—

(a) a planning authority or the Minister has, before the passing of this Act, decided to grant a permission or approval.

The Minister announced this morning that he has granted permission for the demolition of a very important part of St. Stephen's Green.

I feel a little unhappy that just before this Bill becomes law the Minister has given this permission. I think perhaps he might have waited a bit. I notice that one of the reasons for his decision was that other parts of Stephen's Green had already been destroyed and, therefore, the implication was that we might as well go ahead and destroy the lot. I find this provision unsatisfactory. I do not like the fact that it is on the very day on which the Seanad is considering this Bill before it becomes law that the Minister has reversed the housing authority decision. Subsection (3) of this section states:

This Act shall not apply in relation to the following, namely—

(a) the demolition of a habitable house in case the demolition is of a class, or complies with conditions, prescribed for the purposes of this subsection,

The Senator must have the wrong copy of the Bill because subsection (3) was deleted in the Dáil.

I am reading from the Bill as introduced. I am glad to hear that this subsection was deleted, I think that is a very valuable omission.

It would obviously be unreasonable to require permission to be obtained under this Bill in a case where planning approval had already been granted.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 10 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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