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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jul 1969

Vol. 66 No. 17

Land Bond Bill, 1969: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

This is a short Bill relatively free from technical complexities and it should not cause any great difficulties for the House. The Bill has three purposes which I propose to discuss individually to facilitate consideration by Senators.

The first purpose as provided for in section 1 is to make a further increase in the total amount of land bonds which may be created and issued by the Minister for Finance for the purpose of making advances and paying purchase moneys in respect of land taken over by the Land Commission for the purposes of the land settlement programme. Senators will be aware that we have had similar increases on two occasions since the original limit of £10 million was imposed by section 6 (1) of the Land Bond Act, 1934. That limit of £10 million was increased to £15 million by section 7, Land Act, 1953, and to £25 million by section 2, Land Bond Act, 1964.

Land bonds required to make advances and to meet the cost of land taken over by the Land Commission are created by the Minister for Finance, usually on an annual basis, as they are required by the Land Commission. The latest order made by the Minister for Finance on 23rd June, 1969, creating a series of £100,000 land bonds has brought the total amount created under various Land Bond Orders to £25 million, that is the total amount currently authorised by statute. It is, therefore, necessary to provide legislative authority for the creation of a further series. Having regard to experience over the last few years, it is desirable on this occasion to provide authority for the creation of a further series of bonds amounting to £15 million. It is reckoned that such an amount should provide sufficient bonds for a period of about seven years.

Senators will appreciate that land prices continue to rise and maintenance of the land settlement programme, even at its existing level, would necessitate an expanded supply of land bonds. But this is only part of the increase required. The Government, as announced in the Third Programme for Economic and Social Expansion, are committed to an intensification and acceleration of the work of land acquisition and division, especially in small farming areas. I know there will be general sympathy with the work of improving the lot of small farmers by providing them with sufficient additional land to put them on a viable basis and I believe the House would not wish to see this work delayed in any way because of lack of land bonds. I could remind the House, in fact, that the Land Bond Act, 1964, which increased the previous limit by £10 million, proved non-contentious and got a speedy passage in both Houses.

Apart from land purchased or acquired for land bonds the Land Commission are buying an increasing area of land each year for cash. Senators will be aware that the Land Act, 1965, removed the restrictive application of section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, and as a consequence purchases for cash may now be made by the Land Commission for all the purposes of the Land Acts. For the current year, a record sum of £600,000 has been provided for these purchases, representing an increase of no less than £170,000 over the amount provided last year. In the case of cash also it will be our desire to provide a constantly increasing supply of money so that the Government's policy of speeding up the work of land reform can be implemented as announced in the Third Programme.

The second purpose of the Bill, as provided for in section 2, is to simplify the land bond system by changing existing and future land bonds from numbered bonds in three denominations to unnumbered bonds in £1 units. Under the existing system, land bonds have heretofore been issued in numbered denominations of £100, £10 and £1 and these denominations once registered cannot be subdivided. This system is now becoming very cumbersome and is giving rise to difficulties such as: (i) On transfer forms the numbers of all bonds or groups of bonds for transfer must be shown, and this can involve considerable work for stockbrokers, solicitors and banks acting as agents for land bond holders; (ii) It is often impossible for a holder to divide a land bond holding as the holder may wish. For instance a holding of £1,000 in land bonds made up of 10 £100 bonds cannot be equally divided into three or four equal parts; (iii) It is difficult for trustees to acquire a particular amount of bonds owing to a scarcity of £1 or £10 bonds available.

By changing the bonds into unnumbered bonds of £1 units these difficulties will be removed. The proposed change has been welcomed by the committees of the various stock exchages in which dealings in land bonds take place.

The third purpose of the Bill, as provided for in section 3, is to authorise the transfer of registers of land bonds from Chase & Bank of Ireland (International) Limited to the Bank of Ireland.

Since the inception of the land bond system the registers have been kept by the former National City Bank, which since 1926 was a wholly owned subsidiary of the Bank of Ireland. Since the reorganisation of the bank by the acquisition by the Chase Manhattan Bank of New York of 50 per cent of the share capital the character and type of work being performed by the bank makes it inappropriate that the work of registration of land bonds should be performed by it. This work is accordingly being transferred to the Head Office of the Bank of Ireland, where the registers of most other Government stocks are kept.

This Bill will authorise the provision of funds in the form of land bonds to enable the Land Commission to press ahead with the land reform programme and will also simplify the clerical procedures for registering and transferring the bonds. I can commend it to the House on this basis.

I agree with the purpose of this Bill. I am glad to see that the Minister is bringing in some improvements in relation to dealings in land bonds having regard to the problems which arose in connection therewith. I am also glad to see that arrangements are being made to pay for land in cash rather than in land bonds. I assume that all the transactions will not be in cash, that there will still be a certain amount of bonds involved.

I am reminded of the hardships suffered by persons from whom land was acquired and who were paid in bonds the value of which has fallen in many cases by 30 points. It was a very unfair system. Thousands of acres of land were taken at £5 an acre from their owners in the early stages and, in exchange, all they got were bonds even for that small acquisition price. Similarly, land was taken from people and the Land Commission rented the land year after year after year and placed the rent which they received from that land against the cost of acquiring it instead of leaving the land in the possession of the owner until they were ready to take possession of it and divide it.

The manner in which land acquisition and division was carried out in the past seemed unfair to many of the people from whom the land was taken. I am glad to note that there is approximately £600,000 in cash being provided this year for the purchase of land. It is a great pity that cash was not made available in the past to pay for land when it was being taken from its owners for half nothing and when all they got was paper script instead of cash for the land. I presume that this £600,000 will be sufficient to pay for approximately 20,000 acres of land That would be a fair enough programme if we could have an annual division of land of not less than 20,000 acres. I realise that the Minister was not in a position to make a statement on this Bill on the activities of the Land Commission. However, when we consider the cash he has mentioned here, we can assume that the pace of land acquisition and division will be somewhere around 20,000 acres per annum. It would be reasonable enough if this could be done and particularly if the land were made available to deserving applicants.

Unfortunately, in the past, land was given to some people who were not able to maintain it, who were not able to use it, while on the other hand, farmers' sons who were working on farms all their lives and who knew how to manage land and farms did not qualify for the allocation of a farm because they were not uneconomic holders. The system seemed to favour uneconomic holders and small farmers. I think it is necessary at this stage to take a new look at all these regulations and to ensure that, when land is being distributed by the Land Commission, it will be given to people who are capable of working it in a proper manner and of making a living for themselves out of it as well as making a valuable contribution to the national income.

In the past, no strings were attached to the distribution of farms. No minimum output was requested. In many cases, those who were given land were permitted at a later stage to have the land vested in them and then to go to an auctioneer and to put the taxpayers' money into their pocket—to put the price of the land into their own pocket—and go back to a different way of living. That has been an unfortunate activity associated with our land division scheme. I cannot understand why a stop was not put to that activity long ago.

This new Minister in the Department of Lands certainly knows something about land congestion and associated problems. His professional experience alone would acquaint him with the problems of congestion, land distribution and all the rest. I hope that, as Minister for Lands, he will ensure that the land will be given out to deserving applicants and not just to people who qualify on paper. It is essential that the land will be given to people who will be capable of making a contribution to the State in the form of output from that land in addition to getting a living for themselves and their families out of it. Agriculture must be a viable activity so far as these smallholders are concerned.

I am very much in favour of the trend towards paying cash for land instead of bonds. There are many sad stories to be told about people who had the land taken from them and were given bonds in exchange. We are aware of the plight of some people by the time they were finished with the Revenue Commissioners and the Stock Exchange—not to talk of the fall in value of bonds. If they came upon hard times and were forced to sell the bonds instead of holding them until maturity then they were really at a sad loss. All these factors reveal a very sad story so far as the system of acquiring land for distribution is concerned. It is a pity that only in recent times the Government have adopted an attitude towards the holders of land which will enable the land to be paid for in cash rather than having it taken from the owners and bonds issued in exchange.

I am glad to note that there has been a substantial contribution to the land bonds from people with money to invest who are seeking a secure investment and the income that comes from them. Those people who are purchasing land bonds are making a valuable contribution, in their own way, towards the subdivision of land and towards the establishment of more economic holdings in this country.

I am very grateful to Senator Rooney for his contribution and for his general attitude towards this Bill. The fact that the amount of money for cash purchases has greatly increased in recent years does not disguise the fundamental difficulty which this or any other Government faces, namely, that to obtain the full cost of the financing of the programme of land acquisition, distribution and resettlement would involve a strain on the capital budget which could affect other matters of equal or even greater priority such as housing, education and health. Nevertheless, it is a source of satisfaction that we have been able to spend progressively more on cash purchase. This is a trend which I assure the House I shall endeavour to maintain. With all that, the cost of land, as the Senator is well aware, has increased so dramatically in recent years that, even though a record figure of £600,000 was spent on cash purchase of land in this year, the amount of land bonds actually issued in the same period was 1¾ millions.

I assured the Dáil last night and should like to assure the Seanad today that where bonds are concerned I shall make every effort to ensure that the objective of enabling the owner to realise his bonds at or as near as possible to par will be realised. The situation here is that money which was stable for a very long period of years after the creation of the land bond system over 30 years ago is now in a state of flux and money is becoming very rapidly more expensive to buy. This obviously creates serious problems in regard to the statutory obligation of the Government to issue bonds at a price which will enable the owner to realise them at, or as near as possible to, par after a reasonable period and also consequential problems for the allottees of land who have to pay for it over a period of years in such a way that the interest on the bond will be covered and also the administrative costs attendant on the whole process.

Specifically, I will streamline the procedure so that within a reasonable period from today, say, a year to 15 months, the maximum delay that will occur in land bond cases will be three months and in that way make a significant, practical contribution to the objective of realising for the vendor the full equivalent of cash for his purchase money.

Senator Rooney asked if I would take a new look at all Land Commission regulations. I shall certainly be doing that and shall be dealing with it on another occasion here. It is impossible, in my view, to devise a perfect system. Where the vesting of land is concerned it does seem to me desirable that the land should be vested as quickly as possible so that the new owner will have the necessary incentive to invest in the land in such a way as to draw from it its maximum productivity. As the House knows, when land is let, grazing or conacre, the person who has the temporary use of it rarely puts fertiliser on it or indeed takes a great deal of interest in it but simply takes what he can out of it for the period of 11 months or whatever it is for which he has its use. Therefore, it is desirable from the point of view of the Land Commission and of the new owner that the land should be vested and not simply let to him for a period of years to see how he will get on. There is no guarantee, even if he is given the land on a temporary basis for a few years and looks after it well, that on its vesting he would not change his tune and suddenly lose interest in it.

As a result of such things, human nature being what it is, no system of land division, even one devised by a combination of an earthly seer like Solomon and heavenly seer like the Angel Gabriel, would be absolutely perfect. All that one can do is to do one's best to select the proper type of people and the proper young men to increase the productivity of the land of our country and realise that there will be a small fall-out rate, a small number of failures, but that this is an occupational hazard.

As I said, the practical steps I hope we will take to reduce the waiting period between the date of acquisition by the Land Commission and the date of availability of the bonds is the biggest single contribution that I can make to protect the vendor from depreciation. Any other steps I find it possible to take in this regard I will be very glad to take. There is no point in trying to disguise the fact that it is, on the face of it, a hardship on any person who is paid in bonds to have to accept less than the par value of these bonds when he goes to cash them.

I think that covers the various points that were made and again I thank Senator Rooney for his contribution.

I want to raise one point with the Minister——

By way of question?

Yes. In the case of a person who gets a divided farm, gets it vested, sells it, puts the money in his pocket and goes off about his business, would the Minister consider the system which operates under the Department of Local Government in respect of vested cottage plots? For instance, if a person sells a portion of his vested plot, the county council recover the price secured for that portion of the plot. That is a vested cottage site in the same way as this is a vested piece of land, divided up at the expense of the taxpayers?

I must make a distinction here. In the case of migrants' holdings, which I think is what the Senator is thinking of, as I pointed out in my earlier remarks, the migrant, once the holding is vested in him, is entitled to sell. Where an addition of land is given to somebody, say in the west of Ireland or in one of the congested areas, he must pay the consolidated annuity, which over a period of 50 or 60 years, whatever it is, returns to the State the investment that the State made in creating that extra holding for him. However, so far as the migrant is concerned, having given up his own property for the relief of congestion in a particular area—sometimes at the request of the Land Commission though more often at his own request —and having been given an exchange, he is obviously in a different position because it is a quid pro quo and he is entitled to be vested in ownership. So far as I know, in regard to migration generally the number of drop-outs is extremely small, though I also have in mind the migration of people from the west, the south or elsewhere to what could be potential development land in a very short period in the future. This might possibly raise a question and, indeed, it is something that has been agitating my mind recently. I can certainly undertake to have a look at that although I know that there are certain regulations which may be a help to prevent a migrant from making what would be an enormous profit on a transfer, not from one agricultural holding to another, but from what turned out to be an agricultural holding to development land for building purposes.

The Minister mentioned migrants but there are non-migrants——

Any further questions might be raised on Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration, and passed.
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