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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jul 1971

Vol. 70 No. 17

Higher Education Authority Bill, 1970: Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".

This Bill is now going to leave this House, as Senator Quinlan said a moment ago, probably making a record in that it is a politically uncontroversial Bill in which the combined efforts of the Opposition have not succeeded in persuading the Government side that a single amendment put forward deserves either incorporation as it stood or deserves the consideration of the Minister's advisers for the purposes of drawing up a Government amendment. That fact speaks for itself. Somewhere, in the Minister or in his advisers or the people behind him who cannot be seen or who are not responsible to this House or anybody, there is a stubborn mind at work. It may be a well-intentioned mind and a mind with the interests of the people of Ireland at heart, but it is a stubborn and inflexible mind, and that is the last kind of mind that should be brought to bear on educational problems. It is absolutely the last kind of mind that should have a determining say in problems of higher education. I hope that we in this House and the Deputies in the other House are not going to live to regret the day that we allowed ourselves to be dictated to by this mind, whoever it may belong to, in the way in which we obviously have been over the last three weeks.

It is a Bill with serious defects. I do not want to raise the banner of alarm or to alarm the public in any way, but it has serious defects and they are defects which are patent on the face of the Bill. The defects of the 1908 Irish Universities Act, under which we are still functioning, were not patent on the face of the Bill. The defects which that Bill contained became evident over the course of years with the independence of this part of the country, with the changing of social conditions and of social perspectives, and with the broadening of opportunities arising for ordinary people who had not previously had them.

These natural, social and economic developments lay bare the defects of the 1908 Irish Universities Act. At the time that Act was passed it was hard to see, looking at it now, that it had any serious defects or that any serious room for abuse was left by it. That is not the case with the Bill to which we are now saying "goodbye" in this House. Let anybody in the future who finds himself at loggerheads with the Authority or the Minister go back to the debates of this House and he will find that the deficiencies of this Bill have been unremittingly pointed out with varying degrees of eloquency and efficiency by people on this side of the House on all the occasions in which it has been debated here.

I am not going to give the House a resumé of all the various arguments which we have put forward. The whole thing can be condensed very simply. We are being asked to make, as Senator Quinlan said, an act of faith in the persistence of a reasonable frame of mind in people who are as yet unborn, people who are not yet in power, people who have not yet come into formal political life or into formal official life. We are being asked to make an act of faith in a Bill which patently gives too much discretion to the wrong people. It gives too much discretion to the Minister, in regard to the designation of institutions. It gives too much discretion to the Minister and the Government in regard to the hiring and firing of the members of the Authority. It gives too much discretion to the Authority in regard to the requiring of information from institutions of higher education and it gives too much discretion to the Authority in regard to the imposition of conditions. It gives a most dangerous discretion to the Authority in regard to allowing the Authority's functions to be performed on its behalf by one of its officers or servants.

The Authority is composed of people not one of whom is required to be a full-time academic. Not one of the members of the Authority is required to be a person whose main commitment in life is to the very ideal this Bill and this Authority is supposed to be promoting. These are very serious defects and it would be a matter of surprise to me—I do not say that in any sense of gloating because it may be that we on this side of the House will be the people who will have to deal with those difficulties when they arise—if the defects which this Bill contains and the abuses to which it opens the door do not become a matter of public knowledge and public grievance within a period of five to ten years.

I am extremely disappointed at the way the Government have approached this Bill. I am extremely disappointed with the way in which a reasonable human being, like this Minister, has approached non-politically intended amendments advanced from this side. I am extremely disappointed that this Bill should have been dictated and run through both Houses by a mind obviously stubborn and inflexible to the last degree and the kind of mind, therefore, which should be kept far away from anything to do with education.

I rise more in sorrow than in anger on this Fifth Stage of the Higher Education Authority Bill. We find that all our efforts to improve this Bill have been frustrated. The Bill contains what could well be a prescription for the totalitarian control, at some future stage, of our institutions of higher education. The absolute powers that the Minister has over An tÚdarás and that An tÚdarás has over the universities are completely incompatible with any liberal or democratic ideal of higher education. The prescription, as set out here, is little different from that in respect of the corresponding Soviet bodies.

This is a Bill which we will have to amend drastically when the next stage in the development of the university system is before us. I share Senator Kelly's frustration at the way we have been treated in regard to this Bill. It was, obviously, a completely nonpolitical affair. We can claim that we have served many years on this system that we have learned something from it and I hope we have made contributions of some value to the university system both on the teaching level and on the administrative level. We have learned throughout the years that the inflexible and anti-democratic approach conveyed in this Bill is totally wrong. We have learned also that the pious aspirations of the Minister are not worth recording on the record of Seanad Éireann because they carry no compulsion whatsoever for the future. Consequently, I regret what we have done.

I hope that the reasonable actions of quite outstanding men on the present Authority will be able, by precedent, to establish the guidelines. That is no safeguard whatsoever against a completely arrogant Minister in the future who may be determined to ride roughshod over the universities. If we ever have such a Minister he will find the instrument to enable him to do so in this Bill. By doing so he will be able to achieve what the Department of Education would dearly wish to have achieved in the past: the bringing of all education completely under the most inflexible and the least liberal of all our Departments of State. I am sorry that we have to leave the Bill in this condition. We did our best to improve on it but we have been beaten by the inflexible advisers who flank the Minister.

I would like to join with Senator Kelly and Senator Quinlan in expressing sorrow at the way in which this debate has taken place. I express sorrow in two respects, first of all in relation to the substantive Bill itself and secondly in relation to the procedural aspects of it. I would agree with the criticism made by Senator Kelly that this Bill is a bad Bill. There is no disagreement in principle about setting up the Higher Education Authority and this makes it all the more regrettable that we could not have worked out a better Bill. I am sure there are other Senators who feel that we have not legislated on this Bill: we have been steamrolled on it. Our views have been listened to, but there has been a stonewall approach and none of the arguments put forward have been considered worth thinking about for the Report Stage. None of the amendments we have put forward has been accepted.

The Minister has been given too much power, both to designate the institutions and to hire and fire the members of the Authority, for the proper balance and control in a Bill of this nature. An tÚdarás has been given an extraordinary power over the institutions so that they have to provide more information. An tÚdarás has more control over their finances than any of the State-sponsored bodies or any of the public bodies which distribute far more of the wealth of the country. Those institutions have nothing like the scrutiny or nothing like the interference with their autonomy that we have written into this Bill for our institutions of higher education. I do not think we will be very proud of that fact in years to come.

I am very disappointed to discover as one of the university professors— and I join with Senator Quinlan on this —that had this debate taken place in November, February, April or May some of the arguments made would have been accepted by the Minister. The fact must be clear to anybody on either side of the House. Because we are now in July and the Minister does not want to bring the Bill back to the Dáil our function in relation to it is absolutely nugatory and no matter what arguments we put forward they will not be listened to. I believe the Minister's attitude is that he would prefer to have a weaker Bill which would go through the House without having to go back to the Dáil than to accept some of the valid points made.

I say that with great regret. I consider it an abuse of the parliamentary process. It is part of the ill-timing and the fact that we seem to be in the situation where the Government are unable to put forward legislative plans to deal with it, and it is regrettable. I should hope that people would realise at some stage that there is a great need to examine publicly how our Parliament is conducted, so that we do not have a rushed debate at the end of the year, with no time to consider fully the Bills, and with no hope on this side of the House that any of the arguments will be accepted, for the simple procedural reason that the Minister does not want to go back to the Dáil with the Bill.

Sna díospóireachtaí ar na Céimeannaí éagsúla den Bhille seo sa tSeanad, rinneadh an Bille a scrúdú agus a mheá le cúram agus le dúthracht ó gach taobh. Cé go ndubhrathas roint rudaí measra cruaidh le cúpia nóimeat anuas caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil mé buíoch de na Seanadóirí as ucht doimhne a machnaimh ar an mBille agus as ucht na tuairimí a nocht siad ina thaobh. Comhartha é ar an tábhacht a thuigeann an Seanad a bheith leis an reachtaíocht seo gur chaith siad an oiread san ama agus dúthrachta á scrúdú agus á phlé. Tá mé cinnte go mbeidh Acht an Udaráis um Árd Oideachas ina ghléas fíor-luachmhar chun árdoideachas sa tír seo a chomhoirdniú agus a fhorbairt agus á fheabhsú, agus ní gá dhom a rá leis an Seanad go dtéann chun leas na tíre, leas phobal na tíre aon ní a théann chun leas an oideachais.

Despite the fact that some hard things have been said in relation to my attitude in relation to this Bill, I found the discussions very informative. I am grateful to the Seanad for the deep consideration that they have given to the Bill in all its aspects, and for the ideas and opinions which have been expressed in this House in relation to the Bill.

As Senator Kelly said earlier on, I feel that it was a gratifying aspect of the discussions that they were in general marked by courtesy and an absence of rancour. However, just in the final stages here, one or two Senators accused me of coming into the Seanad with a closed mind, determined not to accept any amendment, and intent on steamrolling the measure through the Seanad. That is not so. I want to put it on record that my anxiety with regard to this Bill from its beginning to its final stage here, in the Seanad, was to devise legislation which would serve in the best possible manner the purposes for which it was designed.

It is natural and understandable that a Senator who proposes an amendment and argues about its adoption with sincerity and conviction should be disappointed that it was not accepted or passed. I can accept that a Senator might not find the arguments against his amendment as convincing as his own arguments in favour of it, but I would expect that the Senator would appreciate that my approach to the suggested amendments was equally sincere, and that my judgement of their merits were unprejudiced and dispassionate.

Many of the suggestions which were made during the passage of the Bill through the Seanad related to matters which received full attention and consideration when the Bill was being drafted. Others dealt with matters which were fully discussed in the Dáil. There were suggestions made here as a result of representations made by outside bodies and organisations interested in the proposals contained in the Bill. I might add that representations also came direct to me, which I carefully examined. My attitude towards every proposal made for the amendment of the Bill was simply this: will acceptance of the proposal improve the legislation and make it more suitable and effective in the achievement of the aims for which the Bill was designed? When I considered that it would do so, I accepted the amendment. As Senators know, the Bill which came before this House was amended in several respects during its passage through the Dáil. That is not to say that, if I decided here that further amendments should be accepted, they should not be accepted in this House. Where I considered that a proposed amendment would add nothing to the Bill or, as was the case in a number of instances, would weaken it, I naturally declined to accept the amendment.

Senators ought to accept my integrity and my bona fides in relation to this matter. Whatever misgivings there may be in relation to this legislation, I am convinced that it will be seen in the future as a landmark in Irish education.

Question put and agreed to.
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