On section 1, I should like to get some elucidation from the Minister in regard to the question which I raised on the Second Stage relating to the future parliamentary supervision of similar type legislation.
European Communities (Confirmation of Regulations) Bill, 1973: Committee and Final Stages.
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."
Before the Senator proceeds, I should like to point out that section 1 brings the Schedule into the Bill and would the Senator propose to discuss section 1 and the Schedule together?
Yes.
It would not be possible to have a repetition of the debate on the section and on the Schedule.
It would be more appropriate to have the two together.
We are discussing section 1 and the Schedule at the same time.
I am concerned with the principle involved in the parliamentary supervision that this Oireachtas considers appropriate in regard to this type of legislation in the future. As agreed by everybody who is sensible in the House, this Bill must be enacted before 12th June. What we want from the Minister is an assurance that this sort of procedure will not be adopted in the future and that the Joint Committee of the two Houses should be established forthwith to deal with not just the regulations passed by the European Economic Communities, the regulations processed through the Communities, but also regulations which are the concern here under the Schedule to the Bill—regulations which are passed by Government Departments here arising out of directives from the European Economic Communities.
We must have, if we are to have any semblance of democratic parliamentary control, a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas which will supervise in a very detailed way. I would regard this Committee as being one of paramount importance in the Oireachtas, which will go through many of the matters raised in the debate on the Second Stage and exercise a supervisory control of every regulation, not just the ones emanating from the European Economic Communities but regulations arising here by reason of directives of the European Economic Community. This is our concern in the Schedule to the Bill.
As the motion which was proposed to be passed by the previous Oireachtas is now apparently in a situation of medias res, I should like to know where exactly that proposal stands. I should like to ask the Minister if he could inform us where do we stand in regard to the Joint Committee which was proposed to examine the regulations and directives of the Community. What do the Government propose to do in regard to that Joint Committee? Furthermore, I would ask the Minister to make it clear that any such Committee, when appointed by the Oireachtas, will also be empowered to examine domestic regulations passed here arising out of EEC directives.
Does the proposed motion, which was not implemented before the dissolution of the last Oireachtas, still stand? It is quite clear from reading it that its only mandate was to inquire into regulations, directives and decisions emanating from the European Economic Communities. The Seanad has rightly criticised this Schedule but we on this side of the House are willing to pass it because it must be passed before 12th June. These particular regulations do not come within the ambit of the proposed Joint Committee of the Oireachtas. I should like these aspects clarified so that we will not have a debate of this kind every six months where Members of the Seanad and Dáil have imposed on them an Act of legislation which sets out orders which, to put it bluntly, no Member of either House of the Oireachtas has any knowledge of, no committee has pursued any investigation into and generally makes a charade of the whole parliamentary procedure.
We are willing to grant a pardon on this occasion but we should like to ascertain and receive from the Minister an assurance that this will not happen again and that, before any such legislation is introduced in future, either in regard to domestic regulations arising out of EEC directives or in regard to regulations emanating directly from the European Economic Communities, a Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas will be established, equipped with a proper secretariat, be properly founded and will be a permanent Oireachtas watchdog in regard to all EEC matters as set out here in the Schedule.
I must ask for the indulgence of the Seanad at this point. I would hope not to be pressed, as the Minister deputising for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, to give undertakings and guarantees as to what that Minister will do in the future. It might be reasonable to request such guarantees if it would appear that the Seanad will not have another opportunity of debating these matters for some considerable time after the passage of this Bill. But this really is only an interim or adjournment debate and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the proper person to reply to the important points raised by Senator Lenihan, will be in the House for the debate on the motion. These questions can all very properly be put to him at that stage.
I understand he is at present engaged in drafting proposals for the Government with a view to making suitable arrangements for the information of the Oireachtas and of delegates to the European Parliament on draft legislation. He will be here to report to the Seanad. I am sure he will do it in detail and will answer all questions which Senators have to raise on this matter. I hope I may have the indulgence of this House on that matter.
I would be prepared to accept the Minister's suggestion that we should leave over until the 20th June the further discussion of the nature and powers of this Committee. The only point that would worry me is the possibility that between now and the 20th June the terms of reference of this committee might be framed so that it would be past history by then. Perhaps the Minister would be willing to give us an undertaking that he would ask his colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, not to put the terms of reference into final form until we have had an opportunity to debate them again.
I am less willing to go along with the Minister's suggestion that we should not seek any further information about these regulations on the grounds that we could discuss them again on the 20th June. I do not know whether the Cathaoirleach would agree with me but it does seem that once we have passed this Bill enacting these 22 regulations we would not be permitted again, under the Standing Orders, to discuss those regulations until a term of six months had elapsed. Anyone who tries to discuss these regulations or to find out details about them on the 20th June might be told that he was out of order. I do not know if I am right but it occurs to me that this is a distinct possibility.
For the Senator's information it would not be proper during the debate on the motion to refer to these individual regulations or to refer, in detail, to their effect. However, the whole question of the manner of making regulations will be open for debate and these regulations could be cited as examples and referred to in passing.
I accept that, but it leaves us in the position that any information about an individual regulation that we may wish has got to be acquired now or else never. To take an example, Senator Robinson asked a question about the £6 million that will fall to be paid in the coming financial year. The memorandum relating to this particular regulation, The European Communities (State Financial Transactions) Regulation, 1972, says:
The main payments which will arise are as follows: EEC budget, European Investment Bank, reserve and capital, European Coal and Steel Community reserve, and financial aid to Turkey under the association agreement with that country.
I do not know why Turkey should be an exception but it does say in regard to Turkey:
...our contribution in this instance will be submitted to the Dáil for approval in due course.
That is satisfactory but the other three items, apparently, do not require any kind of Dáil approval. Therefore, I do think we ought to know in general terms how this £6 million is to be allotted and which particular item is going to get what particular funds. We are never going to be able to ask again.
I do not propose to go into the technical aspects of the various numbers of regulations that have been made. Listening to the Leader of the Opposition speak here this afternoon I believe it is worth placing on record the fact that, when he says the Opposition are prepared to grant pardon for an interim piece of legislation such as this, the reason why this legislation is necessary at this time is because of a decision taken by the previous Government. The reason why we are here today to implement this measure so as to reach a particular deadline is because of the way the measure was initially handled by the previous Administration.
It would not be proper that this House, meeting for the first time, should allow the record to go unchallenged in that regard. We ought to understand very clearly that what is happening now is a tidying-up operation, a mopping-up operation, on something that was initially handled badly, on the admission of the Leader of the Opposition, and now is being dealt with so that the way can be cleared to establish the Committee and to allow things to take place properly in the future.
I think Senator Boland is forgetting that he is now supporting the Government. This Bill comes in as the responsibility of the Government and not of the Opposition. The Opposition, when in Government, put through the enactment which stated that these various regulations would be brought within the six months period before the Oireachtas and they would lapse unless they were agreed to by the Oireachtas. It is the responsibility of the present Coalition Government which brings them in in this form that we are faced with the situation that we have 22 regulations to deal with, that we have a memorandum which gives the minimum of information written by the Coalition Government, that none of us received copies of these regulations, and that no copy of one of these regulations was available in the Library until this morning. Senator Boland will have to live with the fact that he is not now in opposition but supporting the Government and it is the responsibility of the Government to see that Members of the Oireachtas are provided with adequate information when a Bill of this kind is brought in.
(Interruptions.)
I sympathise, to a great extent, with the call for information which has come from Senator Yeats but I am slightly less impressed when I look at the Explanatory Memorandum and notice that in the case of very many of these regulations they came into effect on the 1st January last. It was well within the competence of the then Government to circulate all information that the Senators now in opposition might have required. It was particularly within the competence at that time of the now Leader of the Opposition in this House to ensure that his colleagues were fully briefed with all the information necessary.
That was the job of the Minister for Foreign Affairs on the 1st January, 1973. Instead of doing that job, apparently, the Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time found himself taken by surprise by the then Taoiseach and found he had to float around the country. At that time he had not got a "Wanderly Wagon" to assist him but nevertheless he found he had to float around the country and engage himself in a general election instead of circulating the information that Senator Yeats so urgently required.
I have sympathised with the predicament of Senator Yeats and I hope that all information necessary to enable Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas will be circulated as soon as it is reasonably possible for the Government of the day to do so. It is essential that we should be put in a position of discussing these regulations as informed as we possibly can. Do not let us start off this day in the Seanad with this kind of carping criticism when the whole thing has its roots in the failure of the then Government to handle the position properly and to brief Members of the Oireachtas at the earliest possible time with the information which Senator Yeats is now calling out for.
I am not quite clear about the exact point which Senator O'Higgins is trying to make. Do I understand that he is suggesting that the then Fianna Fáil Government did not tell the Coalition Government what this £6 million was to be spent on and that, therefore, they do not know?
I am only responsible for what I say, not for Senator Yeats' understanding.
May I ask the Minister where this £6 million is going to next year. I still do not know. I do not know whether he knows or if he has it on his file but before we enact this particular regulation it would be nice if someone knew.
Senator Yeats' request is, in part, reasonable. The fact is, of course, that the main payments which make up this are set out in the memorandum. He has referred to them: EEC Budget, European Investment Bank, European Coal and Steel Community and Reserve and Financial Aid to Turkey.
The first three were already dealt with in the White Paper on Accession as part of the terms of Accession and an opportunity was given to both Houses to debate these matters. As regards the fourth item—Financial Aid to Turkey under the Association Agreement—our contribution in this instance will be submitted for Dáil approval in due course. We are not certain at this stage what the exact amount of that will be. I have asked the officials to provide me with a breakdown of these items and, as soon as I have that, I will inform the Seanad.
I am not anxious to participate in this pingpong buck-passing that is going on. I note that the regulations are described as Statutory Instruments in the Schedule. I should like to know whether these regulations will be sent to the Seanad Committee on Statutory Instruments, whether this will be done before the Confirmation Act and if this is done, what role the Seanad Committee will play in scrutinising these Statutory Instruments. As far as I can see from the wording of section 3 of the European Communities Act, the only limit on the power of the Minister is that he may not create an indictable offence. He can amend and vary and repeal any existing Irish law and, therefore, presumably he could possibly impose a tax. It would be interesting to know whether this would be so and the ordinary criteria by which the Committee on Statutory Instruments judge Statutory Instruments might not therefore be very relevant. If this was the case, would it be considered, in looking into the question of setting up a Joint Committee on European affairs, that the Seanad Committee on Statutory Instruments might also be remodelled to play a more useful role in relation to these instruments if they will be referred to them?
Since this is the first meeting of the Seanad there is no Committee on Statutory Instruments at the moment.
Does that mean my question does not have to be answered?
I understand the regulations do not require to be sent to the Committee on Statutory Instruments but, whether in fact they will be sent, I am afraid I cannot tell the Senator at this moment.
They would be of no real assistance if they were sent to the Committee on Statutory Instruments. I would not be in favour of that at all. The Committee on Statutory Instruments deal with statutory orders made under Irish legislation and, therefore, these orders, which arise under EEC legislation, do not appear to appertain to their terms of reference. In any event, even if their terms of reference were extended to cover these regulations, all the Committee on Statutory Instruments could do is to investigate the matter as to whether any such orders were legally in accordance with the powers given to the Minister under the relevant legislation. It is not their business to decide whether, in their view, it is a good or satisfactory order or an unsatisfactory order, or anything of that kind. I do not think that would be any safeguard. What we need is some kind of committee, or some kind of procedure, which will go through these regulations and decide whether they are the kind of regulations we in the Oireachtas should be supporting and putting through.
Senator Yeats may have misunderstood me. I suggested that the Seanad committee might meet one of the great failings in the operation of this procedure. The fact is that these Statutory Instruments are not available, not published, and are not where Senators might possibly avail of them. They were not available in the Government Information Office in Henry Street during the past week and, apparently, some of them were not in the Library. The committee have a function in this area, and have a function as to the formal nature of the Instruments. I would agree that, to some extent, the only function they could have would be to see that these Instruments complied with section 3 of the Irish Act and the European Communities Act. Since section 3 is very broadly phrased, it would not be a very useful role, but I noted that they are described as Statutory Instruments in the Schedule and I therefore wished to know whether they came under the Statutory Instruments Act, 1947.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment received for final consideration and passed.