Business of Seanad.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I propose that the Order of Business be amended to take the following motion, which has been circulated:

That, in the case of the Local Elections (Petitions and Disqualifications) Bill, 1974, the proceedings on the remaining stages of the Bill and on the motion for earlier signature of the Bill if not previously brought to a conclusion shall be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. today by putting from the Chair forthwith and successively the Questions necessary to bring them to a conclusion: Provided that after the said hour on the said day

(i) a Question shall not be put on any amendment (save a Government amendment and the question on any such amendment shall be in the form, That the amendment be made), nor on any motion other than a motion necessary to bring the proceedings to a conclusion, and

(ii) The question to be put to bring the proceedings in Committee on the Bill to a conclusion shall be, That sections and the schedule (or sections or the schedule, as amended, if amendments have been made) stand part of and that the Title (or the Title as amended) be the Title of the Bill.

Mr. Yeats

On a point of order, is it proposed to discuss this matter in the absence of the Minister who is responsible for it?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator O'Higgins stood up to move what I gather is an amendment to the Order of Business.

Mr. Yeats

We are discussing the Bill.

Mr. Tully

I am glad to make Senator Yeats happy.

Mr. Yeats

The Minister has come in to deal with this matter. That is good. It is a pity Senator O'Higgins did not wait for him.

Mr. McGlinchey

On a further point of order, a Leas-Chathaoirleach, I have here two sheets of paper, which have been handed to us within an hour. I take it that we must make a decision. We have read the first piece of paper. Could you explain to me why it was necessary to change it? Are there no brains at all in that Government of so much talent that they cannot even write out a simple notice such as this? In their anxiety to use the battle-axe they have not the brains to draw up something simple——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Will Senator McGlinchey please resume his seat? Senator O'Higgins, please.

Mr. Killilea

On a further point of order, I should like to know from the Leader of the House whether it is the function of this House to accept those two documents presented to us within a short period?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Could I deal with a point of order? The Leader of the House is moving an amendment to the Order of Business, the terms of which he read out a few moments ago. The House will debate the amendment to the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Killilea

Is it in order to circulate two of them? Can somebody quote the reference which would allow two documents to be circulated in the House and then allow the Leader of the House to come in and take his choice of whichever one he so desires? Is there a ruling on this?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The document before the House is in order. Senator O'Higgins, please.

Mr. McGlinchey

On a further point of order, the Chair rules that the documents before the House are in order. There are two documents before the House, both numbered the same way. One is 1669 and the other is 1669(a). Surely we are entitled to be told why it was necessary to issue a second document?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

My understanding of the situation is that the only document to be discussed— I would ask Senators to pay attention to the Chair—is the document which Senator O'Higgins has just read out. I understand this is the second document that was circulated. Perhaps the Leader of the House might be allowed to make a statement and then each Senator will have his turn to speak. I am not taking any more points of order.

Mr. McGlinchey

Senator Killilea rose on a point of order. The Chair was drawing the attention of the Leader of the House to the fact that there was a point of order. Senator O'Higgins in true O'Higgins fashion, continued to read and ignored the ruling of this House and we did not hear what he read. I do not know which of these orders has been read. I have a right to know.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If Senator McGlinchey will resume his seat I will ensure that his rights are protected. Would Senator O'Higgins please read out the motion again?

Mr. Yeats

On a point of order——

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Could we have order?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Yeats

I am interested in the exact status of this resolution or motion that is being moved. As I understand it, what is normally described as a guillotine motion requires notice unless the Cathaoirleach or the Leas-Chathaoirleach is willing to accept it without the usual notice. Now, however, we are being told that this is not a motion of this character but an amendment to the Order of Business. This is a totally new procedure, as far as I know. Is it in fact the situation that this is being moved as an amendment to the Order of Business?

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I am moving this, first of all, to amend the Order of Business and, secondly, to move the second of the motions which were circulated.

Mr. Yeats

If I may interrupt, on a point of order, this is a serious matter. An amendment to Riar na hOibre can be moved without notice. Senator O'Higgins says that there is an amendment to Riar na hOibre and a separate motion. If it is also a motion dealing with other matters it is a motion requiring notice, and the Leas-Chathaoirleach must consider this matter and decide whether in her view it is proper that this should be moved without notice. It simply is not good enough to describe this as an amendment to the Order of Business and therefore these can be moved without notice.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I suggest that we get on with the business.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I suggest that Senator Yeats should desist from lecturing the Chair in this House. He is no longer the Chairman.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Perhaps the Chair would be allowed to say something. I understand that, if the revised Order of Business is agreed to, the motion read out by the Leader of the House and circulated would then arise and the Cathaoirleach would have to rule on the matter of notice.

Mr. Yeats

Which is the first motion? What motion is before us to amend the Order of Business?

Mr. Halligan

The particular motion which Senator O'Higgins is trying to read out.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I have proposed that the Order of Business be varied in order to take next the following motion:

Mr. McGlinchey

On a point of order——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Perhaps Senator O'Higgins would be allowed to conclude and Senator McGlinchey could then raise his point of order.

Mr. Killilea

On a point of order, Senator Yeats asked a simple question of the Leas-Chathaoirleach. Is it within the orders of the House to do what Senator O'Higgins is doing. Could we know this before he finishes this diabolical motion he has put down. I should like the ruling of the Chair on this and I think it is time that such a ruling was given.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As I ex-explained before, as the Chair understands it Senator O'Higgins is moving an amendment to the Order of Business and has read out the text of a motion which is the subject of that amendment to the Order of Business.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It is obvious that an effort is being made to prevent the reading out of the remainder of the motion. Before I was interrupted I had read the first two portions. The next is as follows:

The question to be put to bring the proceedings in Committee on the Bill to a conclusion shall be, That sections and the schedule (or sections or the schedule, as amended, if amendments have been made) stand part of and that the Title (or the Title as amended) be the Title of the Bill.

I have moved that the Order of Business be varied to take that motion next.

Mr. Lenihan

Let us at least go through the motions of conducting a Parliamentary Assembly, even though it has been debased by the behaviour of the Government and the Fine Gael and Labour groups in the House. Let us know precisely what we are doing. We have had two pieces of paper representing two different motions handed here to us. It now appears that the second piece of paper is, in effect, as the one read out by Senator O'Higgins, the proposal now before the House and it is that the Order of Business be varied. I take it that we will proceed then to vote on that, because we intend to oppose it very vehemently. Having taken that vote I understand then that this infamous motion will be moved. We do not want any confusion. We are not going to vote and be beaten on an amendment to the Order of Business and then find that in doing so we were voting on the motion that is before us here. What we are going to vote on now is an amendment to the Order of Business and then Senator O'Higgins will move this infamous motion on the second piece of paper. Is that correct? Are we quite clear on that?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is correct. I hope everybody else is quite clear on it. It is a motion to amend the Order of Business. I am calling Senator McGlinchey.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

There is an obvious effort to obstruct this and I propose that the question be now put.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will not accept that.

Mr. McGlinchey

That proposal of Senator O'Higgins is a perfect example of the system by which this Government intend running this nation during whatever period of power remains to them. Indeed their actions today will recall, for the older people in this country their actions of 40 years ago, because today we see once again the Blue Shirts in action in this country. Every act of the Government in this House and in the other House during the last few months recalls, for those people who can remember, the actions of the Blue Shirts.

I live in the most northern part of this land. At a very late hour yesterday evening I received a telegram to be in this House at 10.30 a.m. today. It was necessary for me to drive through that part of this country occupied by British forces. It was necessary for me to have my car searched six times today by Her Majesty's troops. It was impossible for me to be here at 10.30 a.m. this morning to discuss this business which now the Government are attempting to change. It would appear to me that this Government have no consideration for anyone but themselves. By a few hundred votes in three constituencies they managed to be elected to office on policies which they were unable and unwilling to carry out. They know, despite their gerrymandering Bill, that when they face the people in the not-too-distant future, that the hindtit of this Government, the Labour Party, is sickening the mongrel foxes of Fine Gael. It is well known—and Fine Gael Deputies in Dáil Éireann are saying so—that before Christmas of this year the split will come and they will go to the country.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

Is this relevant?

Mr. McGlinchey

I think it is relevant to the Order of Business because I feel——

Mr. Killilea

It is as relevant as your hyprocrisy. Hypocrites, that is what you are.

Mr. McGlinchey

——the reason the Order of Business is being challenged, the reason the Government want to change the Order of Business, the reason they want to rush this document through this House, is that they know that their honeymoon is nearly over and that they, in the short time left to them, are going to take every opportunity to do what they can as far as jobbery and corruption are concerned in this country.

The performance of this Government is absolutely disgraceful. Today a Bill, which proposes to give authority to make an employee an employer at the same time, is to be rushed through this House with only three or four Members of the Opposition given an opportunity to speak on it. The democratic rights of the Opposition are being blatantly flouted. This is not the first time in the few short months that they have been in office that we have had examples of this kind. I have sat on these benches for 12 years and I listened to lectures from Senator O'Higgins, the then Senator Garret FitzGerald and the then Senator John Kelly on the democratic principles of government. One would think, listening to these paragons of virtue when in Opposition, that when they got the opportunity of governing in this country that they would do so in a fair and democratic manner. I submit that the proposal to change the Order of Business today is neither fair nor democratic. I believe that every Member of this House has a right—and the whole purpose of this House was to give each Member of it that right—to study legislation long enough to enable him, if he so desires, to table amendments.

That right has been denied to the Opposition. In denying that right they are demonstrating clearly to the people of this land the political tyrants they are. I should like to remind them that their days in Government may be very short and that it may not be too long until they are back sitting on these benches preaching political democracy. Perhaps some of the so-called learned Members of the Government party should study political democracy before they proceed to give lectures on it in future. I feel that this proposal before us at this moment is low, mean, despicable, unfair, unjust and tyrannical.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I suggest that, as Senator McGlinchey has now summed up his reasons for opposing this Bill and as he is speaking as a Front Bench Member of the Opposition, the case against the proposal has been adequately put and I again move that the question be now put.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I think in the circumstances I will accept the motion.

Mr. McGlinchey

They should put on the Blue Shirts.

(Interruptions.)

Question put: "That the question be now put."

The Seanad divided: Tá, 24; Níl, 15.

Tá

Barrett, Jack.
Blennerhassett, John.
Burton, Philip.
Butler, Pierce.
Deasy, Austin.
Farrelly, Denis.
Fitzgerald, Jack.
Halligan, Brendan.
Harte, John.
Higgins, Michael D.
Kerrigan, Patrick.
Kilbride, Thomas.
Lyons, Michael Dalgan.
McAuliffe, Timothy.
McCartin, John Joseph.
Markey, Bernard.
Moynihan, Michael.
O'Brien, Andy.
O'Brien, William.
O'Higgins, Michael J.
O'Toole, Patrick.
Sanfey, James W.
Walsh, Mary.
Whyte, Liam.

Níl

Aylward, Bob.
Brennan, John J.
Brosnan, Seán.
Browne, Patrick (Fad).
Hanafin, Des.
Keegan, Seán.
Killilea, Mark.
Lenihan, Brian.
Cowen, Bernard.
Dolan, Séamus.
Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
Garrett, Jack.
McGlinchey, Bernard.
Ryan, William.
Yeats, Michael B.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Halligan and Sanfey; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and Garrett.

Question declared carried.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will now put the question that item la be added to the Order of Business.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In view of the disruption I am adjourning the House for five minutes.

Business suspended at 3 p.m. and resumed at 3.05 p.m.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In accordance with the decision of the House, I am now putting the question "That item la be added to the Order of Business."

Mr. Killilea

On a point of order——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is no point of order.

Mr. Killilea

There has to be a point of order. We have been cut down all day. Surely we can open our mouths?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator will resume his seat.

Mr. Killilea

I am not out of order.

Question put: "That item la be added to the Order of Business."

The Seanad divided: Tá 24; Níl, 15.

Tá

Barrett, Jack.
Blennerhassett, John.
Burton, Philip.
Butler, Pierce.
Deasy, Austin.
Farrelly, Denis.
Fitzgerald, Jack.
Halligan, Brendan.
Harte, John.
Higgins, Michael D.
Kerrigan, Patrick.
Kilbride, Thomas.
Lyons, Michael Dalgan.
McAuliffe, Timothy.
McCartin, John Joseph.
Markey, Bernard.
Moynihan, Michael.
O'Brien, Andy.
O'Brien, William.
O'Higgins, Michael J.
O'Toole, Patrick.
Sanfey, James W.
Walsh, Mary.
Whyte, Liam.

Níl

Aylward, Bob.
Brennan, John J.
Brosnan, Seán.
Browne, Patrick (Fad).
Cowen, Bernard.
Dolan, Séamus.
Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
Garrett, Jack.
Hanafin, Des.
Keegan, Seán.
Killilea, Mark.
Lenihan, Brian.
McGlinchey, Bernard.
Ryan, William.
Yeats, Michael B.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Halligan and Sanfey; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and Garrett.

Question declared carried.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 15 May 1974