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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1974

Vol. 78 No. 7

Social Welfare Bill, 1974: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill makes certain legislative changes arising from the proposal that title to children's allowance under the Children's Allowances Acts should be vested in the mother of the child rather than in the father as at present. The actual change in title itself can be effected by amendment of the normal residence rules under the Children's Allowances Acts, but because increases of benefit, pension or assistance in respect of qualified dependent children under the other social welfare schemes are at present also governed by the children's allowances rules, legislation is necessary to ensure that there will be no change in the existing position regarding the payment of these increases. The explanatory memorandum circulated with the Bill will, I hope, help to clarify the provisions which are of a rather technical nature and assist Senators in their examination of the Bill. At present, title to children's allowance is vested in the child's father and this has been the position since the scheme commenced in 1944. In most cases—about 85 per cent— the fathers nominate the mothers to receive the allowances but I have received from many quarters representations, including recommendations in the report of the Commission on the Status of Women, that the mothers should have title to this allowance in their own right. This is the position in many other countries, and I am sure that there are few in this country nowadays who would not agree it is high time that we too should adopt this more enlightened approach.

The matter is governed by the normal residence rules made under the Children's Allowances Acts which set out the person with whom a child is to be regarded as normally resident, and accordingly with whom title to the children's allowance rests. Amended rules will be made to provide that a child shall be regarded as being normally resident with his mother in the first instance and accordingly title to the allowance will in future be vested in her. The existing rules, however, while specifically made for the purpose of children's allowances have also over the years been applied by statute for the purpose of determining the normal residence of qualified children under the other social insurance and assistance schemes.

When the children's allowances rules are amended it will, at the same time, be necessary to ensure that the legal position regarding the payment of increases of benefit, pension or assistance in respect of such children, where the beneficiary would usually be the father rather than the mother, will not be altered in consequence. Otherwise the increases in respect of children could not be paid to the father. What is proposed, therefore, is that the amended normal residence rules to be made under the Children's Allowances Acts will in future be applied only for the purposes of the children's allowances scheme.

New regulations will be made under powers provided in this Bill for determining the normal residence of children for the purposes of the social insurance schemes. These regulations will, with some minor amendments, follow the lines of the existing normal residence rules, so that the position regarding the payment of increases of benefit in respect of qualified children will remain unchanged. The Bill provides that these regulations when made will also apply in determining the normal residence of children for the purposes of the social assistance schemes other than the children's allowances scheme. As in the case of the benefit schemes, therefore, the existing position in regard to the payment of increases of assistance in respect of children will not be disturbed.

Perhaps it would be appropriate at this point to say that during the Committee Stage of the Bill in Dáil Éireann, Deputy Faulkner asked if the actual vesting of title to the allowance in the mother could not be incorporated in the Bill itself. His point, I think, was that since the Bill, when it becomes law, will have severed the connection between the children's allowances normal residence rules and the other social welfare codes which at present also use these rules in determining entitlement to increases of benefit or assistance for children, it would therefore no longer be necessary for a future Minister for Social Welfare to come before the Oireachtas if he wished to reverse the decision vesting title to children's allowances in the mother and give it back to the father. As I have said, this could be done by amending the normal residence rules made under the Children's Allowances Acts. I accepted that the Deputy seemed to have a valid point and promised to look into the matter before the Bill came to the Seanad with a view to seeing if anything could be done by way of a simple amendment to meet it without delaying the passage of the Bill into law.

Since then I have had the matter fully examined and I find that to bring about this change by way of legislation would, in effect, involve incorporating the proposed new normal residence rules in their entirety into the Bill. These rules, as anyone who has had occasion to study them will appreciate, are, in fact extremely complex, providing, as they must do, for a great variety of domestic and other situations apart from what I might term the typical family one, where a child is living with his own mother and father. The present rules, for instance, run into something like ten articles and a number of pages in the printed version of the text. Their incorporation into the Bill would obviously not be a simple matter and it is doubtful if anything would in fact be gained by it.

The principal thing and this, perhaps, is somethng which the Deputy might have overlooked, is that in making and amending the normal residence rules, the Minister and any future Minister likewise, is bound by the provisions of the Children's Allowances Acts themselves. If I may quote from section 5 (3) of the 1946 Act which it the relevant provision in this instance:

Rules prescribed under subsection (2) of this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after they are prescribed and if a resolution is passed by either House of the Oireachtas within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat after the rules are laid before it annulling the rules, the rules shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under the rules.

In other words, even if a future Minister were foolhardy enough to think of restoring title to the father against the tide of modern thinking on the subject, it would be a simple matter for Deputies or Senators to raise the matter publicly, have it fully debated, and set aside the rules if a majority of either House were in favour of that being done.

I hope I shall be forgiven for dealing with this matter at some length but, as I said, the Deputy who raised it undoubtedly had a point which was worth consideration and Senators and other persons apart from the Deputy concerned might wish to be reassured that what we are now proposing to do cannot be lightly set aside at some future date simply as a result of a ministerial whim.

There are two further provisions in the Bill designed to simplify matters for the beneficiaries so far as existing payments of children's allowances are concerned when the title becomes legally vested in the mother. There are about 300,000 or so mothers who have been nominated by the fathers to receive the allowance and it would clearly be unreasonable to require these mothers to make fresh claims for the allowances in their own right. What the Bill proposes to do is to treat them as having made the original claims, and the allowances can thus continue to be paid to them without interruption.

The second provision deals with those existing claims where the records of the Department show the father as the payee. Under the amended normal residence rules the allowance becomes legally payable to the mother in these cases provided, of course, she is still alive. In many of these cases she could have been dead for some years, or living outside the country altogether. In other cases the mother has been content, for any one of a number of reasons, such as the state of her own health or distance from the nearest post office, to let the father handle the children's allowances and would prefer to allow this situation to continue even when she is the person legally entitled to receive it.

Normally she would arrange this by nominating the father as payee. The Bill provides, however, that unless the mother otherwise elects, the father will be regarded as having been nominated by the mother and the allowance will continue to be paid to him thus avoiding the necessity for such formal nomination in these cases. The mother will, of course, be the person entitled to the allowance and if, by a simple notification to the Department, she elects to receive payment it will be made to her as of right. This will also provide the most effective means of dealing with that minority of cases where the father, for his own reasons, has not taken any steps to nominate the mother as payee even though she would have wished it so, and has continued to handle the allowances himself. In these cases the mother, as the person entitled as of right will now be able to arrange to receive payment of the allowances herself by simply letting the Department know her wishes, without the necessity for what could possibly be embarrassing intervention by the Department in the matter. In the case of future claims, the allowance will automatically be paid to the mother unless she nominates the father or some other person to receive it.

I have much pleasure in recommending this measure to Seanad Éireann for speedy and favourable consideration.

This is a very desirable measure of social improvement and indeed is consistent with the whole thinking of the times in regard to the independence of women and is in line with another legislative measure currently being debated in the House. It is giving legislative effect to the reality that already exists in 85 per cent of cases where at the moment the mother is the recipient of children's allowances. It is proper that her title to such allowances should be embodied in statutory form. I appreciate that the Minister must do that under the normal residence rules. It is desirable that this should be so rather than complicating the actual statute itself. It is better to have legislation as clean as possible and to incorporate what is being done here under the normal residence rules in legislation would unduly complicate the legislation.

It is quite clear that legislation of this kind, simple legislation enabling the normal residence rules to be changed, is necessary in order to extend the children's allowances to the other areas of social welfare benefit so that in respect of qualified dependent children under the whole social welfare code, it will be quite clear that other increases under the code will be in the same situation as children's allowances. They will be governed by the normal residence rules proposed, giving the mother title over the whole area of social welfare allowances in regard to her children. For this reason the Bill is welcome. It will apply in the manner I have mentioned to all future recipients. In cases where at present the father is receiving the children's allowances the procedure proposed in the Bill which will allow the election by the mother, if she so wishes to change that procedure, is more effective than any embarrassing situation that might arise were that to be written in in a mandatory way into either regulation or legislation.

As far as the future is concerned, the entitlement to children's allowances resides with the mother and this legal entitlement is there in respect of child allowances under the whole social welfare code. In the case of existing children's allowances this is giving legal effect to what is the reality as far as 85 per cent of mother recipients are concerned and as far as the 15 per cent of cases where the father is the recipient are concerned, the mother has the right now to elect, if she wishes, to adopt what is being made legal as far as future recipients are concerned.

The Bill is very desirable and one that is completely non-controversial. The point that was raised by my colleague in the Dáil has been met by the Parliamentary Secretary and I would agree on balance that the way we have adopted it is better than any form of incorporating complicated regulations into statutes. I am against that in principle. Statutes are complicated enough as regards interpretation. A far cleaner way to do it is in the manner suggested. If something very foolhardy is done by some future Minister for Social Welfare—which is highly unlikely—the order must be laid before the House and must be challenged within 28 days in the Dáil. The Bill represents clean, expeditious and effective legislation and the principle behind it has the backing of this side of the House.

There is not much I want to say except to thank Senator Lenihan for his remarks. This legislation is a highly desirable development so far as mothers are concerned.

I might just mention very briefly the position regarding the father nominating the mother. It is true that this applies in 85 per cent of the cases. but, in fact, there is another 5 per cent made up of widows, deserted wives, et cetera, who receive it. The actual number of fathers who are claiming the children's allowance is approximately 10 per cent. I should make it quite clear that that does not necessarily mean that 10 per cent of fathers are in conflict with mothers and are misusing the children's allowance in any way. Actually the vast number of the 10 per cent of fathers collect the children's allowance as a matter of convenience where the mother may not be able to do so, through ill health or because she lives in a rural area and is not near a post office. The father, on other business, would have occasion to be in the vicinity of the post office. Therefore, purely by mutual agreement and without any tension or conflict within the household, the father collects the children's allowance.

Unfortunately there is a small percentage of fathers who do misuse the children's allowance where the mother could well do with the allowance for the benefit of her children. This is denied to her and undoubtedly misused by a small percentage of fathers. I would like to emphasise that despite all the talk about the mother's entitlement, with which I agree entirely, it would be wrong to give the impression that the vast majority of fathers are irresponsible and misuse money which was provided by the State for the benefit of the children.

I would just like to conclude by thanking the Seanad for receiving the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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