Senator Lenihan was worried about "the dead hand". He did not use that phrase but it was in my mind as it was used by a Member of the other House when his party were in power. He was worried about the presence of Finance. This is a usual provision in paying Bills of this kind. There is no ceiling on expenditure in pursuit of the objectives of this legislation. Our target is 10,000 jobs. If we can, we will exceed that target. I hope to come back in the early autumn for more money for this fund. We, on our side, made the point repeatedly that this legislation is simply a means of inducing industry at this time to take on fresh workers. No more is claimed for it than that.
We do not see the Bill as a substitute for general recovery. It is only when demand picks up in this economy and in other economies to which we export that we will see a recovery in employment figures. Throughout the year this recovery has been expected. If one looks at the report of the ESRI in March, they expected certain growth which never took place. That was a report in March by a very reputable research agency in this State. Elsewhere, we see the same confusion among those who have been observing the economies of our main competitors. The sought for recovery has been slow in taking off. It has commenced in the largest area, the area which in Helmut Schmidt's words is "the psychological capital of world economic confidence". In New York and the United States the economy is already on the way to recovery.
It will take some time before the recovery in these major economies and before the benefits of that recovery come back to Europe. Only last week we saw agreement reached between the French President, the German Chancellor and the Benelux countries on means for co-ordinating recovery in Europe. As the House will know, we have sought in social affairs in Europe for this conjunction of economic and social policy. All these recovery signs must become much stronger before we can see employment here coming back to the figures it was at. Let us remember that our unemployment rate has always been the scandal of Europe. It has always been at over 7 per cent. In our best days it was over 7 per cent. I do not say that the present situation is anything to be happy about. When we hear Members of the Opposition worrying about unemployment, we should know that during most of their reign they lived with an unemployment rate with which no other democratic regime in Europe could live.
Specific points were raised. Senator Dolan wants the hotel industry and the building industry included. We excluded those industries that had a high seasonal content for the obvious reason that we did not wish to subsidise employment that would take place anyway. We wished to direct our funds to those employments which might wait a little longer before taking on extra workers. That is why we excluded industries that had this seasonal content. The county council work he mentioned does not qualify. It is not a manufacturing industry. There is a great deal of mobility in labour in the building industry. We tried to confine it to those areas where we felt it was needed most.
Senator Ferris mentioned that more effort would be needed by the NMS to place unemployed persons. Although our record of placement at this time is down on what it was in better periods of employment, it is still very high. It is still at around 60 per cent. At all times the record of our placement service will bear favourable contrast with the sister service in the North of Ireland. Naturally the record of placement at this stage is not as good as it was a year ago. I confirm —it is made clear in the Bill—that employers should contact the NMS and they will in turn be active agents throughout the country to get employers interested in the provisions of this legislation. It will not be the employment exchange who will be the agents for the propagation of the benefits of this Bill.
I have explained why we excluded agricultural-based processing industries because of their seasonal nature and because we felt that the increase in employment would have occurred in these sectors anyway. That was the basic reason for their exclusion. It would be particularly difficult for the same reason to include service industries, because again they have a very high seasonal content. Administratively, it would be very difficult to decide on the nett additions at any time to the work force.
Senator Lenihan mentioned the unfairness of selecting an arbitrary date. Of course there is always something arbitrary and possibly unfair in selecting any date for the start of a scheme such as this. He mentioned the question of flexibility, yet one must start a scheme of temporary duration. This is a scheme of temporary duration designed to induce industry to take on workers, especially in areas where they might let workers go, to ensure that a pool of labour is kept in certain areas which without the benefits of this Bill might be allowed to go. We would have a situation developing in late spring of next year or early summer where employers around the country beginning to expand once more with the retreat of the recession, would find themselves short of workers.
It is, then, a scheme of temporary duration designed to bring us into the conditions of full recovery, a weapon in the manpower recovery programme of the Government. We permit ourselves some flexibility. I have discretion in legislation to fix on a notional base figure for a particular job on the date of commencement of the scheme. We had the case mentioned in the other House of a particular firm in receipt of Fóir Teoranta aid, and which organisation were represented on the board. This firm conformed with the dictates of Fóir Teoranta, but they were running down the work force. Such a firm in a particular county were caught by this date. In fact, by agreement they had run down their work force for the specific reason of rationalising it, making it more efficient and therefore making the jobs of the remaining workers more secure. They had done that and found themselves with this low work force when this date was announced by me, arbitrarily. In that specific instance I can, knowing the full background and with full discretion to examine the background with Fóir Teoranta, fix a figure higher than the actual figure on that date. I have that discretion, even though it would not be helpful to me to have a movable figure and date for the commencement of the scheme, because all manner of abuses could creep in in that situation.
Senator Yeats mentioned the elimination of payments in certain cases. This exemption is in section 3 (3) of the Bill. Again this is concerned with the exclusion of certain seasonal industries.
Senator Halligan said that it would be less costly because it took workers off the exchange. I hope it succeeds in that way. We have had the complaint that the State gave insufficient attention to the matter of financially aiding people. We gave unemployment benefit but we did not give a choice to the individual to return to gainful employment. That criticism has been made but this legislation is an attempt to right that balance.
The question was raised by the same Senator whether we should give consideration to firms about to have a redundancy problem. The State agency responsible for this is Fóir Teoranta. I have always believed that between Fóir Teoranta and the Industrial Credit Company we need a middle agency to rescue firms in economic difficulties. I know such a proposal is having the active consideration of the Minister for Industry and Commerce.
Senator West referred to the fact that similar measures were relatively successful on a regional basis in other countries. He seemed to be a bit sceptical of the figure of 10,000. As I remarked in my opening statement, we are in uncharted territory in that we have not had legislation of this type here before. The full dedication of the staff of the National Manpower Service will be available to achieve this figure of 10,000 and higher, if that is possible.
Senator Yeats complained that the Bill was too vague. It is true that it has that disadvantage of enabling legislation that it gives me rather wide powers, within the ordinary definition of the industry covered, of selection and discretion. That is an inescapable element in a Bill of this nature. He made the point that there was no mention of the amount of the premiums. These were, of course, already mentioned in the budget statement. He made the criticism that I had too much power to exclude certain types of workers. Again, that is a necessary authority that comes to me in terms of the selection of the industry to be covered by the scheme.
Four weeks unemployment before workers can qualify is a necessary qualification to ensure that it is the genuine applicant who will qualify in this area. In the other House, the Opposition spokesman made the point that this was discrimination against one section of the unemployed. There is no discrimination here because one may qualify by graduating to the point of being four weeks unemployed. That regrettable privilege is there for any one of the unemployed at present. I think Senators will agree that we need a certain qualifying period. Senator Yeats asked what the position is regarding factories who close beforehand. I have that flexibility in terms of the notional base figure on the date of the coming into operation of this legislation.
The question was asked about employers who are in receipt of moneys from State agencies whether they would be totally excluded. We have some power under the enabling legislation to have some discretion in the evaluation of particular cases. Applications from employers who, for example, are currently in receipt of or have received grants or loans from the IDA. Fóir Teoranta, State agencies for promoting, encouraging and assisting employment, will be subject to special examination. An IDA grant may relate to the provision of employment for, say, 40 workers on 1st October, 1975. Under the scheme it is not proposed to give premiums to that employer in respect of those workers. But if the employer should, as a consequence of the scheme, show that on 1st October, 1975, he employed 50 workers, he will then be entitled to receive premiums in respect of the ten additional employees. I have already explained the case of employers receiving aid from Fóir Teoranta. The intention is that the scheme should not in general offer conflict with any of Fóir Teoranta's rescue operations which might involve actual staff reductions for the greater security of the remaining staff.
Senator West referred to the desirability of the scheme being extended to community workshops. Perhaps in the autumn we can look at this suggestion It is not provided for at present, but when I am reviewing the operation of the scheme I will bear that very good suggestion of the Senator's in mind.
Senator Halligan hopes the Bill will not cease in June, 1976. I hope the need for the Bill will have disappeared in June, 1976.