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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Dec 1975

Vol. 83 No. 4

Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowances) Bill, 1975: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I feel sure that all Senators will welcome this Bill which provides for the introduction of a new scheme of supplementary welfare allowances to replace the existing outmoded and generally unsatisfactory home assistance scheme. The new scheme will be administered by the regional health boards under the general direction of the Minister for Social Welfare.

Senators will have received with the Bill an explanatory memorandum which has, I hope, assisted them in their consideration of these quite complex proposals.

This Bill provides for the removal from our Social Welfare legislation of the last vestiges of the harsh and unfeeling Poor Law, contained in the Public Assistance Act of 1939 which for all practical purposes is being repealed. This is a very important step forward in the development of the social services in this country and it is a step that is long overdue.

The attitude towards those unfortunate enough to be deprived or poor which was embodied in the Poor Law was both censorious and patronising. In the debate in this House on the Second Stage of the Public Assistance Bill, 1939, one Senator referred to that piece of legislation as being "full of delicate charity" and as showing respect for the poor in Irish society. No one today, looking at the practical results of that Bill over the years, could regard that view with anything but amazement. Attitudes have changed, for which we must be thankful, and legislation must also be changed to ensure that the rights and dignity of citizens are positively protected and promoted.

In introducing this measure I am very conscious of the lessons of history which indicate, in the words of one recent commentator, that "since other attempts to bury the Poor Law, in Ireland and in Britain, have shown the truly remarkable ability of the Poor Law to survive death sentences, a really radical reform will be necessary" I believe that the measure provided for in this Bill is indeed a radical and workable reform of the home assistance scheme and that it will bring much aid and support to many people who are deprived economically and socially.

While saying this I recognise fully that the long-term solution to the problems which give rise to the need for a home assistance or supplementary welfare allowances scheme lie in very basic structural changes which will require significant advances across a broad front. Provision in the field of social welfare is of importance in so far as it can alleviate the effects of poverty and inequality but the ultimate elimination of poverty will demand concerted efforts in all areas of economic, social and political policy. Equally, I accept the need for careful review and assessment of the progress of the new scheme which will be introduced under the terms of the Bill. Every effort must be made to ensure that it will contribute in a positive manner to the strengthening of our social welfare services.

It is essential within any social security system to have such a relatively flexible support service which will enable assistance to be given, quickly and as of right, to those in urgent need or who cannot be helped under other income maintenance services. Such a service should be also available to help those whose needs cannot be fully met under other State schemes or who find themselves confronted with an emergency situation.

The new supplementary welfare allowances scheme will provide this support service within the national system of income maintenance services. It will become an effective and integral part of the overall national social welfare services and, unlike the present home assistance scheme, will not be seen as an unconnected poor relation of that service.

The new scheme will, however, retain and develop the local, community-based element of home assistance, which is its most important potential strength. The problems of those seeking assistance under the new scheme will, in most cases, call for more than a mere cash response. Social services, social work support and a genuine community care are also needed to help recipients to cope with the situations in which they find themselves and where necessary to reintegrate themselves with dignity in our society.

This Bill is a further step in the direction of the Government's declared goal of establishing a comprehensive system of social security catering for the needs of all citizens. Its effect will be to provide assistance, as of right, to a further substantial number of persons and families and to bring us nearer to the desired end of providing adequate maintenance coverage for all.

Home assistance had its origins in the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, 1847, and was the only statutory form of assistance, other than institutional assistance, provided for persons in need until the beginning of this century. Since then the establishment and development down the years of various State-sponsored social insurance and assistance services has greatly decreased the need for the present home assistance service, as established under the Public Assistance Act, 1939. This fact is reflected in the steady fall in the numbers of recipients, including dependants. From a weekly average of some 75,000 30 years ago the numbers have dropped to less than 30,000 at present.

The nature of the service has also changed radically in that the majority of recipients nowadays are persons who receive assistance to supplement a payment under some other social welfare service or while awaiting payments under such schemes. As a result of this trend home assistance in terms of expenditure is now a relatively small service, the cost in the last full year, 1973-74, being approximately £2 million as against expenditure on the State social insurance and assistance schemes in 1975 of the order of £370 million.

The home assistance service, which is financed from the rates, is administered by 31 public assistance authorities, or by health boards acting on their behalf, subject to the general direction and control of the Minister for Social Welfare.

As Senators are aware, under the existing scheme a person is eligible for home assistance if he is unable by his own industry or other lawful means to provide the necessaries of life for himself or his dependants. All applications are dealt with by the local assistance authority which may decide, at its absolute discretion and without right of appeal, whether a person is eligible and what assistance should be given.

Criticism of the home assistance service has been a feature of social and political comment for many years. Surveys of the service have shown that because of major defects in its structure it operates in an arbitrary and far from satisfactory manner. There are major inequalities in regard to standards of eligibility and in regard to the amount of assistance given as between one authority and another. In some cases these inequalities exist even within the same authority in regard to the treatment of basic needs. Again, in the matter of supplementation there are wide differences in the treatment of similar cases.

These inequalities and the scope for local variation and even for arbitrary exclusion stem from the wide differences in the financial circumstances of the various local authorities involved, as well as from the fact that the existing law does not define with any precision the circumstances in which assistance may be paid or the amount of assistance to be provided. It can scarcely be denied that the resultant discretionary allowances granted in such an arbitrary way, without any right of appeal or review, have all the unpleasant flavour of the Poor Law.

Indeed one recent social survey among poor people showed quite clearly that more than a quarter of the persons who were actually receiving home assistance at the time of interview did not admit this fact to the interviewers and the author of the survey was forced to the conclusion that this was due to a basic feeling of shame associated with the receipt of assistance under the service. If it can be said of any social service that it is compromising of the self-esteem of citizens of our country, then surely the time for reform is more than ripe.

Whatever may be the technical or theoretical criticisms of the existing home assistance service, I am satisfied that by far the most important reason for reform is the stigma which is associated with home assistance. Improvements such as those proposed in this Bill cannot change attitudes, but they can help to remove the most obvious causes of those attitudes and to bring to an end the social cleavage between home assistance recipients and the rest of the community which appears to be an inevitable result of the present system.

The Public Assistance Act, 1939, the present law in the matter, includes provisions deriving from the Poor Law which are unacceptable in a modern welfare system. I refer to provisions such as that which makes it an offence, punishable by imprisonment, for a person in receipt of assistance to refuse or neglect to perform a task of work which he is required by the Act to perform. Such provisions have not been operative for many years but their very existence in current legislation in this day and age highlight the need for radical reform.

The inherent defects of the home assistance scheme in its present form have inevitably led at times to criticism of the officers who had the task of implementing it over the years. I do not accept that such criticism is valid and I wish to place on record my appreciation of the work which home assistance officers are doing and have done throughout the country in seeking to operate an outdated and thoroughly defective scheme with humanity and with concern. I trust that the proposals contained in this Bill will provide a more suitable framework for the efforts of these officers in the future.

I now turn to the detailed provisions of the Bill. In general the aim of this Bill is to provide for the foundation of a social assistance service which will enable pressing need to be met in a flexible and speedy manner while at the same time guaranteeing to all persons who have to resort to the service a standard basic income as of right in place of the arbitrary and variable payments they may receive at present. These basic payments will, of course, be subject to a standard means test.

While uniform basic rates must be a fundamental feature of the new service, the diversity of recipients and the wide variety of the circumstances which cause them to seek assistance require that there must also be a considerable element of flexibility in the service to enable the wide variety of personnel problems and needs to be adequately catered for. This means that provision must be included to permit the basic rates of allowance, or indeed the payments under the various State income maintenance services, to be supplemented so that particular, special or urgent needs of individual claimants may be met.

Another necessary feature of the new service is that it must be capable of being co-ordinated on a family oriented basis with a comprehensive range of non-monetary social work services, the overall objective of which will be to break the cycle of poverty in which some families find themselves trapped.

A most important feature of the new supplementary welfare allowances scheme is that its administration through the health boards, which will apply national standards and national guidelines, will eliminate the territorial inequalities of the existing system in relation to the standards of eligibility and payment and will enable the new scheme to be operated within the framework of the community care services of these boards.

The Bill provides that every person in the State whose means are insufficient to meet his needs and those of his dependants will be entitled to supplementary welfare allowance. This allowance will be provided as of right instead of on a purely discretionary basis under the present Poor Law based scheme.

As I have already said, the demand on the home assistance service has declined over the years because of the introduction of social insurance and assistance schemes which gave statutory rights to benefit to specified categories of persons. The provision of assistance as of right for persons in need who happen to be excluded from such other income maintenance schemes is a feature of corresponding residual benefit services in other countries with highly developed systems and is long overdue in this country.

Since the new scheme will provide that an allowance will be payable as of right instead of at discretion, it is only reasonable to ensure that none but cases of genuine need are covered. Accordingly, students receiving full-time education, who as individuals could be regarded as having no means but who are in fact normally maintained by their parents, will be excluded from eligibility. Persons in full-time work and persons directly involved in trade disputes will also be excluded.

I would like to make it clear, however, that these exclusions are not absolute. In the first place a person in any of the excluded categories may receive an allowance in case of urgent need. Again, even where urgent need does not exist, a person receiving full-time education could in exceptional circumstances be paid an allowance, an example being a student who is head of a household. Similarly a person who has been receiving an allowance while out of work may, under regulations to be made by the Minister, have his allowance continued for a short period after he starts work to help him in the transitional period.

The exclusion of persons directly involved in trade disputes is on the same basis as that applying in relation to the unemployment benefit and assistance schemes, except that under the new supplementary welfare allowances scheme it will be possible to allow payments in respect of dependants to be made during a trade dispute.

While under the relevant legislation the administration of the home assistance scheme is a function of the public assistance authorities, that is, the corporations of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford and 27 County Councils including North and South Tipperary, these authorities have, with the exception of ten county councils, transferred their functions in that respect to the health boards under powers given by the Health Act, 1970.

Subject to the general direction and control of the Minister for Social Welfare the supplementary welfare allowances scheme will be administered by the health boards, and claims for the new allowance will be determined by the chief executive officer or other officers of each board acting on his behalf.

Under regulations to be made by the Minister for Social Welfare a health board may determine that a person shall not be entitled to the new allowance unless he is registered for employment. However, there will be a general exemption from this rule in respect of persons incapable of work, persons over pensionable age, women with dependent children and other classes of persons in whose circumstances the imposition of the condition of seeking employment would be inappropriate.

Persons who make application for supplementary welfare allowance may also be required to make application for any statutory or other benefits or assistance to which they may be entitled.

Apart from the grant of home assistance being at the discretion of the public assistance authority, an objectionable feature of the scheme, which is linked closely to the antiquated tradition of poor relief, the fact that there is no provision for appeals against decisions of the authorities in relation to applications for assistance is another notably repugnant feature of the present system. I have already pointed out that under the provisions of the Bill persons in need will be entitled as of right to allowances under the new scheme. There will also be provision for appeals and the person who is dissatisfied with the determination by an officer of the health board of his claim for supplementary welfare allowance will be able to appeal against such determination to a person appointed by the Minister for Social Welfare.

The basic supplementary welfare allowance payable to a person without means will be the same as the maximum rate of unemployment assistance payable in rural areas. Thus a person without means and without dependants will receive £7.75 a week while a person with an adult dependant will receive £13.50 a week. Increases for dependent children will be payable at the same rates as those which are paid to recipients of unemployment assistance.

A family consisting of a man, his wife and two children will, therefore, receive £18.50 a week. If there are four children the total weekly payment will be £22.30. A single person with four dependent children could receive £16.70 a week. In the case of persons who have some means those basic rates will be reduced by the amount of such weekly means.

These proposed rates compare very favourably with the present national average of payments made by way of home assistance. In a survey made last year it was ascertained that the average payment to a person receiving home assistance, otherwise than as an addition to other statutory benefit or assistance, was £4.91 to a person without dependants, or £9.11 in the case of a recipient with dependants.

The Bill provides also for supplementation where the basic weekly rates of the new allowance or the weekly rates of other statutory social insurance and assistance payments are insufficient to meet individual special needs. Such special needs could, for example, arise in relation to rent payments, to heating or diet requirements, or in the case of persons living alone or having no income other than an allowance over a prolonged period.

Although the amount of the supplements will have to be determined by the health boards by reference to the particular circumstances of individual claimants it is desirable that where practicable the provision of supplements should be standarised for all health board areas. The Bill therefore includes a provision which will enable the Minister, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance, to specify by regulations the circumstances which will give rise to supplements and the amount to be paid in the case of particular classes of claimants. These regulations may also provide for the granting of supplements in the form of assistance in kind.

Standard uniform rules for the assessment of means will be introduced under the new supplementary welfare allowances scheme, representing a further big improvement on the present position. In general, these rules will be on the same lines as those used in the assessment of the means of an applicant for unemployment assistance. It may, however, become necessary in the light of experience of the new scheme to vary these rules if they are not sufficiently flexible or are otherwise inadequate to meet all the particular circumstances which may arise. Provision is accordingly included in the Bill to enable the means rules to be varied by regulations made by the Minister for Social Welfare with the sanction of the Minister for Finance.

So far I have been speaking about supplementary welfare allowances in the form of normal weekly payments, and I would like now to mention briefly the provisions made in the Bill for other forms of allowance. In the first case, where a health board considers that the needs of a person can best be met in such a way, an allowance in kind may be granted instead of the whole or part of a cash payment.

Again, where a health board deems fit, a single payment may be made to meet an exceptional need arising on a single occasion as opposed to continuing special expenses which would be met by an increase in the weekly payment.

The Bill provides that each spouse will be required to support the other and either will be liable to maintain his or her children under the age of 16, without prejudice to other obligations imposed by law or otherwise. These provisions are broadly similar to those of the Public Assistance Act, 1939, but the further provisions of that Act, which stipulate that every legitimate person is liable to maintain his father and mother and every illegitimate person his mother, are being repealed. The proposals in this Bill limit the liability to maintain to the immediate family unit, which is a considerable liberalisation of the wider and outmoded concept of liability under the Public Assistance Act, 1939.

It follows from the maintenance provision that I have just mentioned that where a person receives a supplementary welfare allowance, every person who is liable to maintain that person should be liable to contribute according to his means and ability to do so to the allowance granted. The Bill, accordingly, empowers the health board to apply, where necessary, to a District Court for recovery of sums paid by way of allowances from the persons liable to maintain who are in a position to pay, or make some contribution towards, the cost of the allowances paid. The Court will fix the amount of the contribution to be made in such cases by the relative who is liable.

At present public assistance authorities are responsible for the burial of persons who die leaving insufficient resources to provide for their burial, or whose relatives, if any, are unable to meet the cost. There is provision in the Bill to enable health boards to make arrangements for burials in such circumstances and to empower them to obtain repayment of expenses incurred, where appropriate, from the estate of the deceased person or from any person who is liable to maintain the deceased person.

I come now to the financing of the new scheme.

At present, public assistance authorities are required to meet the full cost of home assistance expenditure from the rates. I have already pointed out that one of the reasons for the absence of uniformity in the treatment of recipients of home assistance throughout the country is the fact that poor counties just cannot afford the same level of assistance as is provided in some of the wealthier counties. If each local authority had to bear the full costs of the new service in its area, with its higher and standardised rates of payment, there would be a very substantial increase in the local rates in the poor counties where home assistance standards of payments are generally lowest.

Having given the matter very careful consideration, the Government came to the conclusion that it would not be unreasonable to require local authorities to bear the cost which they are now required to meet for home assistance, together with a share of the additional cost of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme.

Accordingly, under the proposals of this Bill each local authority's contribution to the total amount to be paid by all authorities will be determined by reference to what it is now spending on home assistance, so that the poor areas will not have to contribute a higher proportion of the total cost than they are doing at present.

Briefly, the new financing arrangements are that expenditure under the new scheme will be met partly by payments to the health boards from the local authorities, which are at present public assistance authorities, and partly by grants from the Exchequer.

Each local authority, which is at present a public assistance authority, will pay to the health board in whose area it is situated a sum equivalent to its expenditure on home assistance in the year 1975 in respect of each full year of the operation of the new scheme. In addition, 40 per cent of the amount by which the total expenditure of all health boards on the supplementary welfare allowance scheme in the year in question exceeds the total expenditure by all public assistance authorities on home assistance in 1975 will be borne by the local authorities concerned, and each individual authority will pay to the appropriate health board a share of that 40 per cent. The allocation between the authorities of the 40 per cent of the excess cost will be determined by the proportions in which total expenditure by all public assistance authorities or health boards on home assistance in 1975 was shared between them.

For example, if expenditure by a public assistance authority on home assistance in 1975 is one-twentieth of the total expenditure by all public assistance authorities in that year, then that particular public assistance authority will be required to pay one-twentieth of 40 per cent, which is equivalent to 2 per cent of the excess cost in question. Expenditure by health boards on supplementary welfare allowances over and above that covered by receipts from the local authorities, i.e. 60 per cent of the excess cost will be met by grants from the Exchequer.

If the new scheme comes into operation other than at the beginning of a year, the arrangements I have outlined will apply on a pro-rata basis in respect of whatever part of the year is involved.

Local authorities which are at present public assistance authorities will have also to pay the administration costs of the new scheme. The local authority in each health board area will share the administration costs in similar manner to that in which local authorities share their contributions to the health boards under the Health Act, 1970.

The cost of the home assistance scheme in 1973-74, the last complete financial year for which figures are available, was, as I said earlier, about £2 million. However, adequate statistical and other information necessary for an accurate estimate of the cost of the radically different scheme with which it is proposed to replace it is not available. It is difficult to guage with any degree of accuracy the effects of the replacement of a purely discretionary service at local level, by a service providing standard payments as of right to be applied uniformly on a nationwide basis.

On the basis of the available information, however, it is estimated that the overall yearly cost of the proposals in this Bill, excluding the costs of administration, will be of the order of £4.5 million.

Taking the cost of home assistance in 1975 to be £2 million, the additional cost of the new scheme would therefore be about £2.5 million. On the cost sharing basis which I have described, the local authorities would be required to bear 40 per cent of the excess cost, that is, 40 per cent of about £2.5 million which is £1 million, leaving about £1.5 million to be met by the Exchequer.

I have mentioned earlier that a number of public assistance authorities had already transferred their functions in regard to the home assistance scheme to health boards under powers contained in the Health Act, 1970. In doing so they also transferred the staffs concerned with the administration of the scheme. When the supplementary welfare allowances scheme comes into operation, the respective staffs of the remaining authorities will likewise be transferred. I wish to make it quite clear that the employment and superannuation rights of such staff will be safeguarded under the provisions of the Bill.

Likewise, all property of public assistance authorities used solely or mainly in connection with the discharge of their functions under the Public Assistance Act, 1939, will become the property of health boards.

Under the terms of this Bill, the Public Assistance Act, 1939 will be repealed, with the exception of two sections which are still required in connection with the administration of the health services.

Transitional provisions in the Bill will enable references in existing statutes, orders, or regulations to matters affected by its proposals to be adapted or modified as may be necessary consequent on the replacement of the home assistance scheme by the new supplementary welfare allowances scheme.

There are also transitional provisions to protect the interests of persons claiming or receiving home assistance at the transition stage. Moreover, in line with similar provisions in social welfare legislation in the past, the Bill also includes a provision enabing the Minister for Social Welfare to take appropriate action by order, within a period of one year from the date of commencement of the new scheme, to remove any unforeseen and otherwise insuperable difficulty which may be encountered when bringing the scheme into operation. Any such order must, of course, be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and may be annulled by resolution of either House within 21 sitting days.

The remaining proposals in the Bill provide for the making of regulations for the purposes of the supplementary welfare allowances scheme and for the bringing of the Act into operation by order.

I believe that the new supplementary welfare allowances scheme, which is provided for under the terms of this Bill, can become an effective and necessary part of the overall social welfare service and that it can remove from that service some, at least, of the stigma attaching to schemes of the Poor Law type. I am sure that all those who will have the task of implementing the new scheme are determined to make it effective and fully sensitive to the needs and dignity of every claimant and recipient.

Yet, in the long run, the success or failure of social welfare provisions in terms of human dignity and of the full integration of all citizens into the community will depend on our attitudes as individuals and members of society. Recent research into the attitudes of the general public to social assistance services and their clients has indicated the continued existence of prejudices which can only hinder the evolution of adequate services and, more important still, of policies leading to long-term solutions. I refer to such attitudes as the making of distinctions between the "deserving" and the "undeserving" and the determination to exercise social control over assistance recipients in what is seen to be their own best interests.

There are still many in our society who see poverty as the result of personal failure rather than as the outcome of deep faults in our social and economic structure. The existence of scientific evidence of the continuance of such attitudes points to the urgency of work designed to bring home to all the real facts about deprivation, its causes and its answer.

I believe that such concepts as the distinction between the "deserving and the undeserving" will cease to be meaningful once the elimination of poverty itself can be accepted as a goal of national policy. Allowing for all the harsh facts of economics in these days such a goal is not alone desirable, it is realisable if we truly wish it. It is not realisable if we continue to believe that some people should be poor and that some should not. Or to put it another way, we must be able to face up to the fact that, if the poor are poor because of the way in which the system works and not because they have faults as people then the non-poor are comfortable for the same reasons and not because of their special personal merits. It is an uncomfortable but necessary thought.

I hope that the reform initiated by this Bill will have a positive effect upon the attitudes of the public at large and that it will assist the overall thrust of policy in the fight against poverty. All effective policy change in the social area is dependent upon widespread public awareness and understanding. These are the only real bases for acceptance of the costs of good social services and for sustained community involvement in them.

Without support and involvement on a very considerable scale even the most radical policies and programmes cannot get to grips with the deep problems experienced by very many individuals and families throughout the country. This is especially the case in respect of the proposed new scheme of supplementary welfare allowances which are designed specifically to deal with the problems of perhaps the most deprived groups in our national community.

It is my belief that the measures proposed in this Bill can achieve two aims. They aim to do away with what has been aptly described as the pauperisation, the indignity and the inadequacy of the Poor Law. They aim also to introduce a new service upon which we can build a programme capable of bringing effective help to many in real need. These are aims which are totally consistent with the progressive development of our social services.

I commend the Bill to Seanad Éireann for its speedy and favourable consideration.

Ba mhaith liom, sa chéad dul síos, a rá go bhfuilfimid sásta ar an dtaobh seo den Teach go bhfuil Bille mar seo ós ár gcomhair ag an Rúnaí Pharlaiminte. Aontaimid leis an dearcadh atá aige agus leis an obair atá á dhéanamh againn i dtaobh leasa sóisialaigh ins gach áit. Cuirimid fáilte roimh an chuid is mó de na tairiscintí atá san Bhille seo.

We on this side of the House are in favour of this Bill. This party have always been in favour of any type of social legislation that would help those in need. We would be particularly concerned about those people who are in receipt of home assistance. It may be a blot on our society that such a scheme has had to exist down through the years and that it is still needed. No matter how we legislate there will always be people who will be ill, who will not able to work and who will not have an opportunity of working, and who, for one reason or another, will not be able to sustain themselves or their families. There are many families at present who are working hard but no matter how hard they work they still find they are not able to sustain themselves and their families in reasonable comfort. It should be our aim to try to do everything possible to assist these people.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the stigma of home assistance. It is a stigma that has attached for too long to this type of benefits. As a member of a county council, I realise that there are people in every county who are in need of assistance. Perhaps the hardest thing of all for these people is to admit that they need such assistance. In many cases they have to bury their pride and seek some help from the county council. It is fair to say that in may own county and in other northern counties, the home assistance officers who have been charged with administering this scheme have, down the years, within the financial restrictions imposed upon them, been very sympathetic. It is only right that officers who go out to investigate claims would bear in mind that they are dealing with human beings and that they are decent people who were probably evicted out of their homesteads in the past, people who were firmly rooted in the national tradition and who were sent to the poorer parts of the country to eke out an existence there. These people had their pride, and we must admire them for it.

The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary are doing the right thing in removing this stigma and looking upon benefits as a right. These people are our own citizens and we have a duty towards them. It is up to us as legislators and as a Government to see to it that there will not be anybody within our society who will not have the ordinary means of living a decent life and giving their families a reasonable chance of success.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the duties of parents and the duties of children towards their parents. He said some effort was being made to ensure that people who could afford it and had property should be more or less responsible for their parents, as is laid down in the Fourth Commandment. Such an attitude has been a feature of all our legislation down through the years; I think it was even one of the reasons why there was a means test for the old age pension, recognising the fact that children have a duty to their parents, especially in their old age. It is an admirable feature of our society and one that should be sustained. It would be sad if younger people, who are able to avail of the many services and advantages that have been made available in our time—the good roads, schools and so on—were to back-track on their duty to their parents and hand them over to the State and say it is the duty of the State to take care of these people, or worse still, to put them into an institution or geriatric homes, which are really prisons so far as the old people are concerned.

The thinking behind this Bill is very good. It is no shame to be poor. Many people are poor not because they are unable to work but because of circumstances. Some people are born into wealth while others are born of poorer parents. It is often very hard to rise above that. Legislation should be designed to try to ensure that these people who had not a fair start in life would be given some kind of equality without cutting out competition. They should be given basic necessities to which any man and woman rearing a family should be entitled. The family is the base of our society and we must not lose sight of this. If it is brought to our notice that people are in need, it is the duty of the local authority and of the Government to ensure that they are assisted.

Many people are critical of what they call "hand-outs" to undeserving people. If that happens in any case it is not the fault of the Government or of a local authority: It may be the fault of the people themselves who have not got a conscience and who try to get something they are not entitled to. Naturally none of us would condone that. At the same time, people in the upper strata in society get plenty of hand-outs that there is no word about, in particular, people who avail of secondary and university education. Many a time the small farmer was subsidising the students through university. Very often those people, when they came to the university, looked down their noses at the poor farmer. When you examine our whole social structure you will concede that there is hardly anybody in this country who is not getting some type of assistance, dole or subvention in one way or another from the taxpayer. We should bear that in mind. These people who have to seek social welfare assistance should not have to come hat in hand.

In the past our officers, our county managers and county councillors were very lenient in this respect. It is only right that they should investigate the claims, but, as often happened in the past in investigating old age pensions and so on it is not necessary for them to go around counting every hen—there are none of them now anyhow. These rules and regulations were administered too strictly. I am glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say this is the death knell of the poor law system. It has existed for far too long in this country. It was introduced by an alien Government that came in and walked upon the natives. They then shoved the natives into the mountains and into small farms, classified them as congested or undeveloped districts, and handed out doles or some other sort of pittance. The Irish people are above that, and have nothing to be ashamed of, if, because in rearing their families and unavailability of work or inability to work they have to ask for assistance. As the Minister said, there will be structural changes in the whole system as a result of this Bill.

It is important to have these benefits. It is people's right. We know that some of this legislation goes back to the famine in 1846-47, when poor houses were built and soup pots and so on were handed out. We are now able to stand on our own feet and cater for those who are unable to cater for themselves. There are still in our community itinerants who have to travel the country, who find it very difficult to get accommodation. This is sometimes understandable because not very many people like to have them on their doorstep. They are, nevertheless, human beings. While some of them are wealthy, the vast majority of them are very poor. While we may talk about the third world and undeveloped areas, we should think of our own people and remember that charity begins at home. You may often find people who are generous in contributing to other schemes but who give meagre support to those who are in need.

The Parliamentary Secretary said that about 30,000 people come under this legislation. That is an enormous number out of a small population. Around £2 million has already been spent. We have a Christian duty, apart from our duty as legislators, to see that these people do not die from want. It happened once. We must ensure it will not happen again. We should follow the philosophy used when helping third world countries. We must do our best to educate these people, to ensure that they will try to rise above the status in which they find themselves and cultivate the desire to help themselves.

It would be wrong to bring up families on the idea that they need do nothing, that there will be a hand-out for them while they are alive. We should try and get away from that attitude. We should, through our legislation or other means, encourage these people, not write them off as inferior citizens but try to educate them and create opportunities for them. At present many of them cannot avail of national education. Every citizen should be able to avail of post-primary and third-level education.

The Minister has made some reference in the Bill to students. I am not sure whether they are catered for or not. There are other county council scholarship schemes, but if the child of a very poor family, on home assistance, had ability and was able to get into a secondary school, he should be helped right along the way. We should lift people out of the rut in which they find themselves, and that is what we on this side of the House would like to do for citizens who are not in as favourable a position as others in our community.

The Minister referred to people's self-esteem and to the unpleasant flavour of home assistance. It was a very unpleasant word. It is no wonder that many families tried to keep it a secret from their neighbours. There was certainly a stigma attached to it. Many of us here have experience of other bodies apart from local authorities who helped in various ways, particularly the St. Vincent de Paul Society, in a secret way. They deserve recognition and thanks for their excellent work.

The amount it is proposed to pay is £7.75, and if there were four in the family it would bring it up to £23. It is important for the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister to keep in mind so far as these amounts are concerned that we are living in an inflationary situation. Last year there was a 26 per cent increase in inflation and no matter how generous £7.75 might look, if you go into any shop at present to cater for a family, even of four, with a £10 note, you will have very little change coming out. You cannot hand out everything, but at the same time it is necessary for us to keep rates in line with inflation. There are many people who live in homes by themselves who are catered for by the health boards through home help and so on and for whom heating is a great problem, with the price of coal escalating.

I am not one who would advocate gathering people into institutions, but only last week a man living alone was burned in his home. Our officers should try to keep a keen eye out for such situations, so as to ensure that, if at all possible, old people who are living alone will have all the necessities of life, that, if they have nobody at all related to them, at least the county council, the health boards and the State will take full responsibility for them.

The Minister mentioned burials, and this is a very big problem in many areas where some poor old man has lived by himself and has nothing. It is only right that the county council, as they do of course, should step in in these cases and see that he gets a proper Christian burial. While he may not have succeeded financially he deserves respect as a human being.

I notice that the staff, too, are being transferred. I would pay great tribute to them for their dedication; their efforts to help the underprivileged in our community.

In this Bill the Minister is doing nothing that has not already been done by the county councils throughout the country. The only effect of this legislation is to transfer from the county council the finances that the county council used for this operation in the past. The county council will now have to pay over that money to the health board, and the health board then will pay it back to the recipients in the various county council areas. That is not good enough. If this is to cost another £2 million, the Minister and the Government should have been big enough to go the whole hog and say they would pay for home assistance and not be handing this back to the ratepayers who, in all county council and urban areas, are saddled with intolerable burdens, burdens that are weighing very heavily on them. Many of them have families and, as you know, there is no allowance made for a ratepayer who has a family. That is totally unjust. It would be much fairer if the Minister had said that they would carry this through taxation. One would think from listening to all this that the Government were doing something wonderful on behalf of home assistance recipients, when, in fact, there seems to be nothing taking place except a chain of operations whereby instead of their receiving home assistance directly from the county council, the council will pay it to the health board; then another official will have a look at it there and it will be paid back from the health board to the same people in the county council. That will increase the cost instead of saving money on the operation.

There are many other points I am not going to refer to now, but I welcome the Bill and wish the Parliamentary Secretary every success.

I welcome this Bill, which is long overdue. Social Welfare covers a very wide field and it is not possible to bring about improvements overnight. I will say, in fairness, that all governments from time to time have made their contribution to improve the position of the underprivileged. This Bill is more flexible. In the past while the home assistance officers were doing a very fine job, they were very restricted and had very little to give. They had no guidelines or training, which made the matter very difficult when a home assistance officer was called in to investigate a claim.

First of all, he had to investigate whether or not the person qualified. Then he had to try and assess what he had to give him. Because of the small amount received, the claimant became frustrated and was inclined to think of the home assistance officer as everything but a gentleman. At that time, if people were turned down by a home assistance officer there was no redress. Irrespective of how difficult people were, if they could have a second opinion it meant a lot. That second opinion might still turn them down, but then they would be satisfied with the decision.

In my opinion this appeal is the best part of this Bill because it makes a person feel his case will be fully investigated. In the section that refers to that appeal, there is reference to another health board officer plus somebody appointed by the Minister. I would not be happy about the reference to the second health board officer. If another officer of the same board came in it would not be fair to the officer because he might be called upon to reverse the decision of his colleague. That would not be that easy. On the other hand, the applicant might feel that he was not getting a fair deal by virtue of the fact that the two people concerned were working for the same board. However, I am quite sure that the Parliamentary Secretary will look into that.

I am worried about training. Anybody who is called upon to deal with the public needs training, particularly with people who are in need. When people are in need they are frustrated, annoyed and upset, and therefore it is much more difficult to deal with such people.

There is another aspect of this Bill. I would like to know how long it will take to assess a claim. The health board will assess the applicant. From my experience of health board officers there can be delay. Even with an ordinary application for a medical card the delay can run into six weeks. Six weeks' delay in the issuing of a medical card would not be that bad because somebody would not die of hunger, but somebody waiting on this allowance for six weeks could be in a very bad financial position. For that reason I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to introduce some condition whereby the matter would be speeded up.

There is another condition which I really favour, that is, in regard to employment. From day to day, whether they are justified or not, we hear people speak about the abuses of the social welfare code. For that reason it is much better that all other channels of employments should have failed before home assistance is considered.

There is another part of the Bill that I think is very important, that is, that the health board can pay a welfare allowance in an urgent case. In the event of somebody being in dire distress it is well to know that the discretion is there for somebody to come out and pay it immediately if the applicant is in trouble. Waiting is not going to improve the position, and very often people become annoyed and upset if there is pressure on them for something they cannot meet.

Another thing is this substitute of goods and services instead of portion or all of the allowance. That is a good idea. I wonder if we could go a step further, but I am not too sure what the legal aspect would be. Very often with parents one of the two can be described as a spendthrift and, irrespective of the amount of money which will go into that house, poverty can exist. Poverty, through bad management, can exist in houses with an income of £60 or £80 a week. It would be desirable if the health board inspector could decide which of the two parents should receive the money, or it might be advisable to supply goods and services instead of money.

Section 5, subsection (1), refers to a trade union dispute. Does this refer to an official or an unofficial strike? Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would tell me how the person will qualify. Under section 5 a person will not qualify, but his dependants and family will. Is the qualified person one who is locked out or who refuses to pass a picket? This section should not act as an incentive to people to remain on strike. I am sure it would be the wish of every Member of the Oireachtas to keep the wheels of industry moving. I may be interpreting this wrongly and I should like to hear the Parliamentary Secretary's reply.

This is a Bill to alleviate and get rid of poverty. It is my belief that it will never get rid of poverty. My way of getting rid of poverty would be to give a poor man an existence allowance, not a bonanza, make him rely on his own resources and make him independent of this allowance.

A couple of years ago in my part of the county we received a direction to bring our public assistance payments up to the same level as Roscommon and Galway. This we did. It cost us about £114,000 a year. Last year we paid out £207,000 cash in public assistance. Our 1975 estimate will be over £280,000. This is an increase in one year of £91,000, and that does not include administration costs. Such bills may be all right in a county where only 40 or 50 people are on public assistance. In counties such as Mayo, where there is an average of 1,600 or 1,700 people on public assistance, rates will be increased by 15.5p: Our rate must be one of the highest, if not the highest, in Ireland. No county can afford that rate for public assistance.

The £4½ million being paid in public assistance will not raise the dignity of anybody. All that is involved is a change of name. Social welfare supplementary allowance is the same as public assistance. I can tell my neighbour to buy a cow for some poor man, but have I any authority to tell a man what to do with his own money? The Government are not justified in telling us in County Mayo to put a rate of 75.5p in the £ on the people of Mayo. Then they will go on the platforms at the next election and say: "We raised your public assistance. We raised your dignity by changing the name to social welfare supplementary allowance." In a couple of days we will have before us in the county council the legislation requiring every county council have proper pounds and maintain them. It was the same with the legislation concerning the waiver of rates. We have had too many of these Bills telling us what to do without money and to raise that money on the rates. We were faced this year with a county manager's estimate requiring a rate of £12.47p in the £. We spent five nights trying to reduce it and eventually struck a rate of £11.17p. This Bill will put a tremendous burden on the ratepayers in county Mayo. All the Government have done is change the name of the Bill from public assistance to social welfare supplementary grant. They are making the county councils collect the money and hand it over to the health boards.

The Government have not given us any money last year or this year. Why can the Government not give us an opportunity of living within our means? Why can they not take 1972 or 1973 as the base year? They are taking 1975, which is a year in which it is costing us £280,000 to meet our public assistance on payments to poor people. This idea of the county councils carrying £1.5 million for the poor people of Ireland is diabolical, particularly in view of all the preaching the Government make about looking after the poor and the unemployed. There will be more people on this public assistance and social welfare in another few weeks when this unemployment money runs out. Then the county councils will be paying them and the Government will not. They are making the county councils collect the money from the overburdened taxpayers and the overburdened ratepayers to pay these people the money.

We have no say in the matter. We must pay what the health board demands from us. The health charges were not brought down very much this year in Mayo. Our health board has a budget of £31½ million to cater for the demands of three counties. In previous times, when we were directly under the county council, our budget ran at about £3½ million. But if a demand is made on us we have to meet it. It is unjust and unfair to us. Eventually the day will come, not alone in Mayo but in many other places, when there will be a rebellion against the payment of rates. We have been told that there has been a reduction over the last 30 years from 75,000 to 30,000 in the number of people on public assistance. During the last few weeks various Ministers have told us that Fianna Fáil during their 30 years in office did nothing at all to help the poor. But this reduction is a good example of what Fianna Fáil did during their years in office. That was a considerable achievement.

I am not happy about the position in regard to students. They get nothing from this social welfare supplementary grant. Take a man in any part of the country who is receiving this social welfare supplementary grant who has a boy or girl who is clever enough to obtain a scholarship to a secondary school or a university. There is not the faintest hope that that father will be able to provide money for that student's upkeep. Such situations should be catered for. Students who have the ability to obtain these scholarships should not be hindered by lack of money. Perhaps we may have a better type of politician here in the future if some of these young people decide to make politics their career.

Even with a demand for £280,000 there were people in Mayo receiving public assistance as low as £1.75 to supplement their income. About three weeks ago a poor unfortunate person told me that she was getting £1 assistance. I knew what bills she had to meet and I asked an official if anything could be done to assist her. I was told that nothing could be done to help her. She will now be getting a little more under the provisions of this Bill. However, this will not come from Government funds; it will come from the ratepayers of Mayo. We cannot afford to increase this public assistance allowance next year no matter what demand is made on us. We will not qualify for the 60 per cent grant next year because we will not be able to give this increase.

Why does the Minister for Finance, as the Bill states, have to sanction the actions of the Minister for Social Welfare when it is the county councils who will collect the money? The county councils will pay the money collected over to the health boards and the health boards will then pay it out to the recipients. Why bring in the Minister for Finance to sanction this? He is not giving us any money? He has given us no money since public assistance came into operation. Why has the Minister for Finance to sanction the regulation of circumstances which would give rise to supplements and the amount to be paid or assistance in kind in the case of particular classes of payments?

I agree with Senator O'Brien when he says that in the case of persons receiving supplementary social welfare benefits the investigating officer should have the right to determine whether it be the father or the mother who would receive payment. We are all aware of the abuses attached to unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance and how in many cases none of this money is used for the upkeep of homes. Most of the recipients spend their money on a day out in the pub. But when people are entitled to these supplementary grants, at the discretion of the investigating officer the payments should be made either to the father or the mother. If the husband insists he is entitled to a certain amount of the money, the investigating officer should ensure that the wife gets the food vouchers to enable her to care for herself and her family.

I know a man who has 17 children and that man gets about £47 or £48 a week public assistance. Would anybody blame that man for not going out to seek work? He can grow potatoes and other vegetables. He can have some chickens and will not have to buy eggs. He may have a cow. He may have 20 or 30 acres of mountainy land where he raises sheep. He can kill a lamb to provide his family with meat. That man will never seek work when he can get £48 per week in public assistance. He can make £20 a week on extra jobs, on "nixers" helping out his neighbours.

I do not like to interrupt the Senator. The Senator is speaking about a specific case—a man who is receiving State aid in the form of public assistance and at the same time doing "nixers". Has the Senator reported the case?

No, I have not. I would never in my life be classified as a spy or an informer. Never in my life will that stigma be attached to me. There are plenty of such fellows knocking around this country and if they are not going to find it out I am not going to tell them. It is not my duty to tell them either.

A nice attitude for a public representative.

As a public representative nobody will ever attach the stigma of spy or informer to my name. It never was attached to the name of any of my family and it will not be attached to me. If you pay me to work as investigator I will do it, but I will not act as an informer for you.

Senator Garrett, on the Bill.

The Parliamentary Secretary said:

If each local authority had to bear the full costs of the new service in its area with its higher and standarised rates of payment, there would be a very substantial increase in the local rate in the poor counties where home assistance standards of payments are generally lowest.

That is true in Mayo, at any rate. The people there cannot afford the increase in the rates which this will involve.

The Parliamentary Secretary also said:

Accordingly, under the proposals of this Bill, each local authority's contribution to the total amount to be paid by all authorities will be determined by reference to what it is now spending on home assistance.

In a poor area a man will have to contribute a higher proportion to the total cost than at present. The council provides money for assistance to the Western Health Board, but has no say in how that money is spent. The poor counties cannot bear that cost. That cost should be borne by the Central Government and made a charge on the whole county. The rich and the middle classes as a whole should look after the poor of the country.

As well as paying the increases the council must also pay the administration costs. In addition the Western Health Board have estimated £18,000 as the cost of a free fuel scheme. The council could not object to it; we have to pay out. The council's total net expenditure on public assistance services for 1975-76, even without these increases at all, will be £340,350. A county such as Mayo cannot afford that.

I will not oppose the Bill, but there are few things in it I can support. It is not going to alleviate or abolish poverty. A man who is given £45, £46 or £47 a week in assistance will not work as a labourer for the county council for £33 a week. That is the standard rate in Mayo. Is there any sense in that situation? The families of such men are going to grow up and say "Well, my father had a hell of a fine time on £47 a week, sitting down watching us playing and gallivanting around the garden" and they are going to try to do the same thing. They will not be inclined to go to work.

The Bill is an answer to the Family Planning Bill, because the more children a man has the more money he will get and the less work he will do. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to try to alter the base year and give us some chance of existence in the west of Ireland.

I should like to welcome the principle of the Bill because it is a different kind of Bill from any of the social welfare legislation we have had in this House for a long time. It is a Bill which is not based on the concept of handouts but on the concept of entitlement. It will be a long time before we can give the poor in this country what they are entitled to. But this Bill, in so far as it declares an entitlement, puts a moral obligation on us all to meet it in some way. The way in which we meet it is of course inadequate, but now we are saying, unambiguously, without any possibility of being misunderstood, that persons who are not wealthy enough to meet their basic needs are entitled to all the help they need in order to bring them above the poverty threshold. The actual words are in section 2 of the Bill:

Subject to the provisions of this Act, every person in the State whose means are insufficient to meet his needs and the needs of any adult or child dependant of his shall be entitled to supplementary welfare allowance.

That is the core of the Bill. Without that, any amount of discretionary power granted to any authority, local authority, health board and so on, would be meaningless. There must be this fundamental provision in the Bill if the whole concept is to work.

It is a concept which is based on justice, not just on social justice but on the economic justice without which we will never have any type of social justice. We are a long way from social justice and we are a longer way again from economic justice. But this Bill is putting some of the priorities right. There may not be the money there to create the conditions which the Parliamentary Secretary would like to create but the legislation is now there and when the money is there the spirit of justice will become more and more of a reality.

I disagree with Senator Garrett when he said that all we had here was a change of words and that the words did not make any difference. If Senator Garrett believed that, he would not have spent so long on his feet abusing the Parliamentary Secretary for what he thought was in the Bill. Of course, words mean things. The fundamental change in this Bill is the change from the word "assistance" to the word "allowance". This is a good change. It is an important change. "Assistance" is one of these words that have value-laden connotations attached to it. It is something that might be given, something that might be withheld. Whether it is given or not depends on the goodwill of the donor, not on the rights of the recipient. "Allowance" is a much more neutral, a much more valid word, one which indicates that if a person is entitled to something there should be no doubt whatsoever but that he gets what he is entitled to. I might even prefer the word "entitlement". A supplementary welfare entitlement might even have been stronger. But, granted that the word in the Bill is "allowance" it is at least a change from the word "assistance", a change not just of terminology but a change that exemplifies the thinking behind this Bill.

Another reason why I am very much in favour of this Bill is that it is hugely discretionary. It gives to the chief officer of health boards, and the officers appointed by him for the purposes of the scheme, considerable latitude in all sorts of ways, for example, in terms of deciding whether social needs and the needs of individual people and their families should be met in terms of cash or in terms of kind. It gives them discretion to say when an award should be made. One thing I am more glad to see in this Bill than anything else is the statutory recognition of the concept of urgency. We are all familiar with the fact that the workings of a social welfare system, although substantial improvements have taken place in recent years, often are not rapid enough to meet the real needs of the recipients.

I came across a case the other day where a man was sacked by a firm, without notice, without redundancy, and immediately after that the firm went into voluntary liquidation to escape its obligations to its creditors, including the people who had worked for it. He was left high and dry. It took him eight weeks to get public assistance, and that was no more than ten miles from where I am standing today. If it took a well-educated working man eight weeks to get his entitlement, eight weeks of not knowing how much money he was entitled to, when he was going to get it, whether he would ever get it, the provision in this Bill for statutory recognition of the concept of urgency is long overdue. Again, we will never meet needs as quickly as they need to be met. Now we have a statutory responsibility being placed on the health boards to meet urgent needs in an urgent fashion. I have come across several cases like these and I am sure all public representatives in this House have. I am sure all public representatives share with me the annoyance and frustration that come from having to deal with a bureaucracy, even a wellintentioned hard-working bureaucracy such as frequently is found in our society.

I hope the provisions of this Bill will be taken to heart by the public service generally and, in particular, this provision for urgency. For public servants the important thing is precedent, the important thing is priority. Very often through no fault of their own they may lack this sense of urgency. This sense of urgency is now being enjoined on them. They have to pay attention to it. They have to meet, as I said, urgent needs in an urgent way.

It has been suggested from the other side of the House and, indeed, may be suggested on this side, that this Bill can be abused. Of course, this Bill can be abused. Of course the Bill will be abused. It is one of the surest things in life that this Bill will be abused. I would argue very strongly that the amount of abuse which may or may not creep into the workings of this Bill, monitored or not monitored by Senator Garrett and his friends, will be absolutely tiny compared to the huge volume of institutional, financial, economic and social abuse we have hurled at the poor throughout the generations of the working of the Poor Law Act.

Senator Garrett seemed to think this Bill was a retort to the Family Planning Bill, which I know the Parliamentary Secretary supports, because it implied that the more children you had the more money you got. I ask Senator Garrett would he have it the other way around? At the same time, there are some points which should be made on the question of financing. Certainly the rating system needs to be changed. I do not propose to go into it here. I do not think I am competent to do so. To argue against this Bill and the financing of it solely on the grounds that it will impose an additional charge on the rates in certain cases is cynical in the extreme.

Senator Garrett even went to the extent of threatening that, if this Bill became law, the county council of which he is a public representative would not be able or willing—the difference is really immaterial—to find the money which would release the extra State grants to help pay the improved benefits in this scheme. This is an extraordinary demonstration of priorities. I hope that if that happens Mayo will be the only county in which it happens. I hope that if it does happen in Mayo, Senator Garrett will get the answer he deserves, because he will then find out that, although you may take away everything from the poor, you cannot take away their votes.

There are a couple of small points of detail in the Bill which I should like to take up here. The first is the reference in section 3 to persons who are receiving full-time instruction at universities, colleges, schools, or other educational establishments. I agree, of course, that it is sound administrative practice, that these people by and large should be excluded from the working of the Bill. I am very glad to see in subsection (3) of this section there is a discretionary element introduced. It was referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary in his speech when he instanced the sort of situation that might arise in which somebody who was in full-time education would be entitled to a supplementary welfare allowance. In this he has put his finger on one of the greatest weaknesses in our social system, and one of the greatest opportunities that was missed when the free education scheme was introduced so many years ago.

Everybody agrees—and certainly it was—that the free education scheme was a good thing. It has taken people a long time to realise—and many people still have not realised—that the cost of education is far more than the cost of the school fees. It is far more than the cost of the school buses. It is far more than the cost of the schoolbooks. For many families in Ireland, far more than many people suspect, it is also the cost of not being able to go out to work.

Senator Brosnahan knows, I am sure, better than most of us of the many families in this city and in this country whose children are not able to complete primary education, let alone post-primary education, because of the urgent financial needs of their families which forced them out to work. This is a sad fact. It is a fact of life. It is a fact which was not recognised, unfortunately, in the O'Malley scheme. An opportunity was lost at that time, I believe, to introduce some form of income supplement for certain families to enable their children to continue in education. This Bill, in a very small way, goes a bit of the way towards plugging that gap which was left unplugged in our education system.

It is often said that this is not important, that the reason people do not participate to any great extent in education beyond a certain age is that they are not interested in it. The answer to that argument is, and always has been, that people should put their money where their mouths are. Let them offer people grants, real grants, to enable them to keep their children at school and they will find out how quickly these social attitudes change, these alleged social attitudes.

As things stand at the moment, the educational system is the greatest single offset to progressive taxation we have. It redistributes large portions of tax back to the people who paid it in the first place not, indeed, to the people for whose benefit it was designed, and very often gives them a surplus as well. I would refer the House to the recent report of the National Economic and Social Council on inequality of income distribution which points out that for a certain hypothetical family, very much in the upper income bracket, the education grants and subsidies are so large that such a person, earning over £6,000 a year, can actually be getting more from the State in benefits than he is paying to it in tax. I will not labour the point except to say that it should be made.

What is of even more fundamental importance in this Bill is that it tackles an even more basic problem than the educational one I have been speaking about, the distribution of resources in the educational system. It tackles the problems of family health and welfare and nutrition which are fundamental to the well being of society. However much educationalists may think and act as if the educational system can remedy all the ills of society, it is very true to say that without basic housing standards, nutritional standards, income standards in the lower socio-economic groups, all any educational system would be doing would be trying to patch up something that is as full of holes as a fishing net. This is the fundamental thrust of this Bill. It is something I am very pleased to welcome.

The second point of detail is the flexibility of the Bill with regard to distribution of benefits or allowances in cash or in kind. This echoes something in the policy document on social welfare adopted by the Labour Party Conference and which insisted that many people's problems are not ones that can be solved just by cash. Anybody can hand out cash, although we have seen, even in this Government, that not everybody can get the cash to give out. Everybody's problems are not always solved by this miraculous commodity. Very often people need services. Very often they need human relationships that can only be provided by sensitive people. In its discretionary aspects, this Bill lays substantial emphasis on these things. I am glad of that.

I have one minor quibble with the terminology in section 10 where we talk about the definition of an adult dependant in a way which, possibly, makes sense to a parliamentary draftsman but not to me. It refers to an adult dependant either as a married man or as a married woman. In the case of a married woman her husband is only regarded as an adult dependant if he is incapable of self-support by reason of some physical or mental infirmity. It seems to me, particularly since section 16 (1) (d) refers to the mutual responsibility of husbands and wives to maintain each other, that this kind of section could be telescoped quite comfortably into some sort of phrase like "adult dependant" means in the case of a married person, his or her spouse if he or she is living with him or her or is wholly or mainly maintained by him or her. I fail to see the need to drag in a man's physical incapacity to qualify him for the status of being maintained by his wife. There may be some men who would be quite happy to assume the role of a dependant in the household. I do not know if this Bill really takes them into account.

Finally, I should like to make a few brief remarks on the question of administration. This was referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary in his opening address when he expressed the hope that people who would be administering this scheme would do so sensitively and with every courtesy to the people concerned. I should like to stress that. I should like to add to what Senator O'Brien said about the importance of training. Whatever training procedures are adopted for the people who will administer this piece of legislation, they should be warned against treating the clients of the social welfare system as problems and encouraged to treat them as opportunities, basically, of course, as human beings, as people who have rights, and treat themselves as people whose job it is to make sure they get their rights. It is a splendid idea to do as has been done here, to build an appeal system into the administration of the Act.

With all the best will in the world, there is still too much mal-administration in our country, too much petty tyranny by people who are accountable to nobody. We must have administrative practices which allow people to appeal against decisions which they genuinely feel are bad. We must have administrative mechanisms which will allow people to break out of what can be a vicious circle of tyranny at the local and perhaps even at the village level. There must be an avenue of escape from such claustrophobic and humanly degrading situations.

I would urge on the Parliamentary Secretary that the greatest single reform that could be made in the public service in the administration of this or of any other social welfare legislation is to ensure that the positions dealing with the public are promotional posts, and not junior posts. There has been too much of a tendency in the past to regard the junior ranks of the civil service as the people best fitted to deal with the public. Accordingly, as you go up the grades in the civil service, you get further and further away from the problems with which you are supposed to be dealing. The actual responsibility of dealing directly with the public, on a face-to-face basis, should be the responsibility of a civil servant or public servant whose seniority is only just below that of the policymaking level. People who went from the position of dealing directly with the public directly into the policy-making level, would help our Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries to produce legislation much more attuned to the real needs of people than to the presumed needs of administrative systems.

In broad terms, I am delighted to see this Bill, not so much for the money it will hand out, although that is not by any means ungenerous, as for the fundamental principles it enunciates.

I welcome the Bill. It is on the record of the House that in January or February of 1970 I suggested that a Bill of this type should be introduced, although not really of this type because this Bill has not gone as far as it should go. It deals with people who are in the non-contributory section of the social welfare code. To date, very little has been done for them by the State. Everything has been done at local level. In his leftish jargon Senator Horgan said people should put their money where their mouths are. He even went on to say that they were not accountable to anybody for what they did. That is not so.

In County Galway, our county council spend practically £1 million every four years on people in need of social welfare who, for one reason or another, are not in the contributory section. No legislation worth talking about was ever brought into any House by any Government to try to help them. It was left to the county councils and to the local bodies to assist these people to the best of their ability. It was the local councils who came to the rescue of such people. They were accountable to the ratepayers who paid the money. Senator Horgan is not quite fair when he says they were not accountable. They were accountable to the ratepayers of the county. They did a job that was very hard to do, and tried to do it to the best of their ability. It is quite fair and true to say that. A long time before I was on it, our council played their part, and continue to do so. It is no mean feat for the people of County Galway to subscribe such an amount of money to a section of the community the State have, in fact, not recognised since its foundation.

This Bill is welcome for what it is worth. As I said previously, it has not gone as far as I would like it to go. The disabled persons' maintenance allowance scheme operates in every county. If a person tries to abuse this Bill he will probably drop the DPMA scheme and get into this one. That is not the proper way to do those things. A disabled person, whether he is a contributory subscriber to the social welfare code or a non-contributory subscriber, should have equal entitlement. That is a basic principle with which I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will agree.

For example, a man is working on a small farm of land of 20 or 25 acres, and his eldest son has to stay at home and rear his brothers and sisters and work hard to do it. Then he gets married himself. His wife's sister marries a neighbour down the road. She continues to work and so does her husband. The two couples are the same types of families. One couple is working and one couple is at home. The girl who has employment goes into hospital to give birth to her baby. She gets three months off with pay. Her sister who is married up the road goes into a crowded hospital and gives birth to her baby. She stays three days in the hospital and is then sent home. I do not think any government—and particularly this Government who claim to be social welfare heroes— can say that they have done everything for this class of people. I do not see anything in this Bill to help them.

We talk about second-class citizens but there are people who are now classed as third-class citizens who do not benefit under this Bill. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary understands exactly what I am trying to say. The DPMA is a payment made by the county council to the best of their ability. They are responsible to the ratepayers. In our county a person who was ill, disabled, or unable to work got a payment of approximately £9. We could not take into account whether he had one child, two, three or ten children, or no children. It was a flat payment of £9. We could give no more. What does this Bill do for that type of person? That payment is now taken into account in the assessment of a person making an application under Social Welfare (Supplementary Welfare Allowances) Bill. This is what I particularly dislike about this Bill.

Section 12 (2) (a) (i) provides that any sums received by way of allowance under the Social Welfare (Children's Allowances) Scheme shall not be taken into account. Section 12 (2) (a) (ii) provides that any sums received by way of allowance for domiciliary care of handicapped children shall not be taken into account. Any sums arising from the profitable use of property are not taken into account. Why is not any person receiving disabled person's maintenance allowance excluded? When it is not stated in the Bill, that will be used. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary understands what I mean when I say that. When it is not included here, it will be taken for granted in the criteria set out for the means test.

I still think that, in the assessment of the means test, the Government have taken into account something which is very unreal. Section 12 (2) (c) provides that the value of any advantage accruing to such person from the use or enjoyment of property, other than furniture and personal effects, which is personally used or enjoyed by the person will be taken into account in assessing the means of an individual for payment under this Bill. If a misfortunate man is living in a house with his wife and four or five children, if he does not qualify under any other part of the social welfare code, and applies for payment under this Bill, the house will be assessed on its cash value. We will have a new set of people assessing the value of the house. We will have all those misfortunate civil servants working for the health boards going around valuing houses. I am sure some of them will not do it correctly, not deliberately. It is ludicrous that, in the assessment, the slates, the timber and the bedroom will be taken into account. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government to delete forthwith section 12 (2) (c).

Debate adjourned.
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