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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 May 1978

Vol. 89 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Implementation of Equal Pay.

I welcome this opportunity to draw attention to the fact that the Irish Government have reported to the EEC Commission in Brussels on the progress in Ireland on the implementation of equal pay. I want to call for the publication of the contents of that report. I welcome the fact that the Minister for Labour is here to respond to the debate and I hope he will accept the importance of publicising and making available the contents of the report.

The material in the report is undoubtedly interesting to the EEC Commission. Indeed the Commission has a legal function under the EEC Treaty to ensure observance by member states of their obligations under the Treaty itself and under specific regulations and directives. However interesting and important it may be to the EEC Commission it is of even more interest to citizens here, and in particular to women workers, to know in what from and in what way the Government reports on the progress—or perhaps lack of progress—on implementation of equal pay. The obligation to file a report flows from the Directive 75/117/EEC on the approximation of the laws of the Member States relating to the application of the principle of equal pay for men and women. This Directive was passed on 10 February 1975 during the period of the Irish Presidency. Article 8 of the Directive provides as follows:

1. Member States shall put into force the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary in order to comply with this Directive within one year of its notification and shall immediately inform the Commission thereof.

2. Member States shall communicate to the Commission the texts of the laws, regulations and administrative provisions which they adopt and feel covered by this Directive.

Article 9 is the relevant provision here. It provides as follows:

Within two years of the expiry of the one-year period referred to in Article 8 Member States shall forward all necessary information to the Commission to enable it to draw up a report on the application of this Directive for submission to the Council.

Clearly the Commission intends at some stage in the near future to compile an overall comparative report for the Council, and that is the purpose of the questionnaire which was sent to Government Departments here and also to the social partners. That overall report is a very useful and important exercise for the Commission to carry out in fulfilling its obligations under the treaty to ensure observance of this Directive. However, the important thing from the point of view of Irish citizens, and in particular of women workers in this country, is to have immediate access to the Irish Government's evidence reporting on implementation of equal pay.

The Government are under a legal obligation to implement equal pay. They have compiled a report in response to the Commission's questionnaire, but the material contained in that report is not secret, is not something that the Government should be trying to hide or that the Government should in some way be trying to put under the table or disguise from citizens. It should be available for comment and reaction from women workers themselves, from women's organisations, from trade unions, from citizens generally. This is very important, to ensure that we have accountable and democratic procedures here, but also that we remove a sense of remoteness and unaccountability from the European Community process of operating.

The Minister in his reply may try to suggest that this report is in an internal document of the European Community and should not be available here. In fact, it is already very widely available here which is another of the anomalies in the situation. I have a copy to which I am going to refer. Also, it was commented on in an article in The Irish Times on 24 May under the heading “Progress Slow on Equal Pay” and I am going to indicate good ground for that particular heading because I think the report does show slow progress on equal pay and a considerable number of gaps in our knowledge.

So, the report is informally circulating in the country. My submission is that it should be published and available. The contents of the report should be set out together with the questions that were being responded to, because without the actual questions in the questionnaire the report is less valuable. It should be prepared in a form suitable for publication together with the material in the various annexes which are referred to in the report.

Whatever the attitude taken by other member states as to whether they will publish their particular reports in response to the Commission's questionnaire, there is a special case for publication in Ireland. We started off on a very bad footing here in January 1976, when the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act was to have come into effect, in that we sought a derogation from the principle of equal pay. The Coalition Government tabled an amending Bill and when it failed to get legal authority to derogate from the principle of equal pay that Bill was subsequently withdrawn. Undoubtedly the result was that there was a smokescreen of confusion, and advantage was taken of this by a number of employers and, indeed, in some instances by unions.

There was a great deal of understandable confusion among women workers as to whether or not they were entitled to equal pay. I have never endorsed that particular step of the then Government and I do not intend to now. The situation was that there was considerable confusion as a result. In June 1976 I tabled an Adjournment motion criticising the then Government for lack of publication of the right of equal pay, how it could be sought by women workers, the fact that it should be contained in any collective agreements and so on.

Therefore, in Ireland we have to redress a situation where confusion had already been created, and where in any case the position of women is more serious than in the other member states. These, I think, are very strong grounds for arguing the need to publicise a report of this sort so that it could be available for comment.

The report does not, I think, contain anything particularly new. It is a compilation of information from various sources. But the fact that it is the Government's attempt to discharge its legal obligations in the implementation of equal pay makes it particularly interesting and important that it be publicised as such. The question of whether the Government satisfy their legal obligations is matter that should be commented on both in debate in the Oireachtas and by Irish citizens generally and in reports in newspapers and articles and so on.

I would like to look at some interesting aspects of the report. For example, on page 4 there is a table of the number of cases referred to the equality officers in the years 1976, 1977, 1978—up to the 12 February—which is the final date on which the report is based. That is when the two-year period in the Directive is completed. It refers to the fact that:

...in 1976, 40 cases were referred to the equality officers. In 1977, it was 64 cases; in 1978 up to 12 February it was ten cases, making a total of 114 cases. In that period 32 cases were withdrawn or settled. The number of recommendations issued by equality officers was 25.

There are several striking questions that arise from this table. Why were there so few cases referred to the equality officers in 1976 and 1977, given the very wide prevalence of discrimination against women workers in the private sector, given the number of women workers who would have a claim if the claim were to be brought?

What happened to the 64 cases which were neither recommended upon by the equality officers nor withdrawn or settled? What kind of time-lag is there?

On a point of order, are we discussing the non-publication of the report or the contents of the report?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I was about to point out to the Senator speaking that we should be discussing the publication of the report and not the report itself and I would ask the Senator to relate all her remarks to the publication of the report.

I appreciate that. One of the arguments I am making for the publication of the report is that it is a report by the Irish Government purporting to satisfy the legal requirements of the directive, and I want to relate the question of the publication to the satisfying of that legal requirement. The point that I am making is that there is evidence in the report of a very small number of claims for equal pay and apparent evidence of a long delay in having these claims processed. The question arises as to whether that satisfies the provisions of Article 6 of the directive, which provides that member states shall introduce "effective means" to ensure that the principle is observed.

At a later stage the report goes on to consider the question of collective agreements and makes extraordinary comments about collective agreements which should be widely known and commented upon in this country. It should be realised what the Government's official attitude is because there seems to be an extraordinary attitude of laissez-faire and of not trying to fulfil their obligations under Article 4 of the directive which says:

Member States shall take the necessary measures to ensure that provisions appearing in collective agreements, wage scales, wage agreements or individual contracts with employment which are contrary to the principle of equal pay shall be or may be declared null and void or may be amended.

So, there is a legal requirement to ensure that collective agreements comply with the law yet the Government in their report appear to be satisfied to say that since at present there is no central agency responsible for the assembly, registration or analysis of collective agreements, it does not know——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Excuse me, Senator. I must again point out that the permission given by the Cathaoirleach does not allow the Senator to discuss the report or matters raised in the report; only the question of the publication of the report.

I appreciate that and I do not want to stray substantially into the substance of the report but if I am trying to make an argument for publicising it part of the argument for publicising the report is to draw attention to at least some general propositions in the report which do not seem to stand up to scrutiny. The fact that the Government can appear to say "We do not know how many collective agreements there are, or whether or not they refer to equal pay. We wash our hands of collective agreements."

There is a provision that collective agreements are null and void, but the Government seems to suggest it is no job of theirs to scrutinise them to ensure that there is observance of the principle of equal pay in collective agreements. I do not think that attitude does satisfy the requirements of Article 4 of the directive. However, I will not pursue the matter since the Leas-Chathaoirleach is anxious that I confine my remarks narrowly to this questions of publication.

Another important point about the need for publication of this report is that since the equal pay legislation became effective here—I include both the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act, 1974 and the Employment (Equality) Act, 1977—there has been too little research and publication of significant reports or analyses. We lack basic information and, in particular, we lack information about the Government's response to the implementation of equal pay. There is no Irish report by the Government to the Irish Parliament, or to any other Irish body, setting out the manner in which the Government believe that equal pay is being implemented or the progress on equal pay.

Or in any of the other countries.

I am not concerned about the other countries. I am concerned about what happens here.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator must be allowed to continue.

I think Senator Yeats is sympathetic to the need for accountability, the need for a progress report by the Government on implementation of equal pay.

We now have a progress report, not because the Government looked into its heart and decided to do it but because the EEC Commission requires it to file its report and because the directive puts on the Government a legal obligation to compile the report. It is all the more necessary that citizens in this country, and especially women workers, see this report and see what kind of accountability the Government can show on the implementation of equal pay. I do not think it satisfies that need that at some time in the future some officials in the Commission will compile an overall comparative analysis of the position in the nine Member States. Indeed, comparative analyses are often deceptive because in such a comparative analysis reference may be made to a statutory body like the Employment Equality Agency. Now by any standards the Employment Equality Agency as referred to in a report like this appears to be a very significant—and it is a very significant—statutory body. But the real point is how effective is it allowed to be? If an agency of that sort has an overall budget of only £80,000, and if a substantial part of that budget is necessarily tided up in staffing and administration so that the operational budget is somewhere between £20,000 and £25,000, then it does not have the capacity to publicise adequately rights of equal pay and opportunity and how you obtain it and so on. It does not have the capacity to review effectively the operation of the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act and of the Employment Equality Act. It does not have the capacity to reach out all round the country and fulfil its statutory functions of examining patterns of discrimination in particular sectors of the economy.

Starving of funds is one way to render what looks good on paper ineffective in practice. I believe that the fact that the Employment Equality Agency does not have adequate budgetary resources and does not have a separate establishment from the Department of Labour—I understand that the Minister stated at one stage that he was in favour of the Employment Equality Agency moving to a separate premises from the Department of Labour, I would be grateful if he would confirm that in his reply——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I must say that that does not seem to be relevant to the question of the publication of the Government's reply to the questionnaire.

It is relevant in the sense that the Government is reporting on the implementation here and progress on equal pay, and in its report it refers to the role and activity of the Employment Equality Agency. I accept that calling attention to the need to publish this report is different from going in detail into the substance of it. Nevertheless the force of my argument is that when the Government justifies progress in the implementation of equal pay here by drawing attention to a statutory body in this report, some attempt should be made to indicate the kind of resources and the kind of budgetary provisions that have been made for an agency of that sort.

On the various levels I have argued the need for publication. I have mentioned the fact that this is the only report that the Government has made; the fact that it is made in consultation with the social partners and therefore is perhaps all the more interesting for that reason because it is a tripartite report in that sense; it is the official Government accounting for the implementation—not of discretionary matters—but of legal rights and legal entitlements for Irish citizens. It is extremely important and vital that this report be published in appropriate form. I emphasise again that I am not suggesting publishing an exact copy, and I hope the Minister will not respond in a rather technical way that as it stands at the moment it is not suitable for publication. I agree with that. As it stands at the moment it is the responses to the questionnaire and references to various matters in the annexes. But the contents of the report (including the questions posed, the response to each of the questions and the material contained in the various annexes), should be put together as a report called the "Report by the Irish Government to the European Commission in Brussels" and then published and circulated widely in Ireland for discussion and analysis.

My time, I believe, is limited in the reply to this far ranging debate—ranging indeed much further than the terms of the motion as I had interpreted it. Senator Robinson spoke of a Government report and many times during her contribution referred to a report. I want to make it clear to Senator Robinson and to the House that there is no such report. Material has been submitted to Brussels in reply to a 42 item questionnaire on the application of the principles of equal pay between men and women as set down in Article 119 of the Treaty and in accordance with Article 9 of the Council Directive 75/117/EEC of 10 February 1973. This required that such information be submitted by member states by 12 February 1978 and this is the material that Senator Robinson is talking about here this evening.

I would like to say also that that questionnaire was addressed to the Government, to the trade unions and the employer organisations here as well as in the other member states. The material to be supplied in reply could be expressed as a common reply at national level or it could be transmitted separately by the parties to whom it was addressed. In fact, after consultation with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the FUE it was decided that in order to obviate the necessity to transmit three separate reports to the Commission it would be preferable to submit an agreed national report.

When coming in here tonight I thought this was a genuine motion on the publication of a report and I was disappointed to hear Senator Robinson extend the motion and obviously bring a political slant into it. I will return to that in a moment. When Senator Robinson was referring to the material supplied in the reply she was very selective in the excerpts she quoted from it. The material supplied by the member states was confidential. It is very lengthy in some of the big countries. For example, in the case of the German report I understand it is about 360 pages. That, after being examined and analysed, will be synthesised and sent to the Commissioners and thence to the Council and finally to Parliament.

Why is it confidential?

My time is very limited. In questions asked to date in the European Parliament the line has been taken that no information would be given as to the content and result of any member state's survey until such time as all the material supplied had been completed and laid before the Parliament. This is in the records of the debates in the Parliament and as far as I am aware no other member country has made the material available. Senator Robinson asked for a debate on a copy of replies that she has in here possession. That reply material on its own could not form the basis for a debate in this House or even in the other House because it should be coupled with the questionnaire, the appendices to the material and the working document complied from reports sent to the EEC in February 1976.

I understand that Mr. Jenkins has indicated in the Parliament that the report from the Community on the replies of member states will be available later this year and when that report is here I will be only too anxious to help and I am completely agreeable to having a discussion then on what will be a report, not what we are talking about here tonight, namely what Senator Robinson referred to, material from replies.

Senator Robinson departed quite a bit from the subject of the motion. I want to reply to some of the points she made. Before doing so I want to say that this reply material, because of the assistance received, was submitted to the FUE, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Department of the Public Service, the Employment Equality Agency, the Labour Court and the Department of Foreign Affairs. This was done because the Employment Equality Agency were helpful in providing that material. Because Senator Robinson referred to the budget of that agency I should tell the House that that agency was established in the interim period last year between the date of the election and the date that the new Government took office. It lacked the essentials at that time. It had no budget provided for it. It had no staff provided for it. It was left to the new Minister who took over on the 5 July and inherited the agency. I agreed entirely with the agency in my time in Opposition. It was left to me then to provide the finance and to provide the staff for that Employment Equality Agency.

Senator Robinson referred rather selectively to the reply material submitted. She did not refer to another part of the document which I will quote from now:

In reply to a parliamentary question about equal pay in the public sector on the 8 December 1976 the Minister for the Public Service stated that the position then obtaining complied, inter alia, with the EEC Directive on Equal Pay. A copy of the reply in contained in Annex II.

Before the change of Government in July 1977 the former Minister for the Public Service had already announced in June 1977 that arrangements were being made for the immediate payment back to 1 January of half the remaining difference between married and single rates under the marriage differentiated salary system in the public service. It was proposed to remove the remaining balance on 31 December 1977. The present Government eliminated the marriage differentiation system with effect from 1 July 1977 by the abolition of the rate applying to single personnel.

Would the Minister like to finish that paragraph?

The agency has been established. At present it has an advertising campaign on press and radio about its functions, about the provisions of the equal pay Act and the equality of treatment action. It is also monitoring the workings of the Act and will be including the results of that monitoring in its annual report to the Oireachtas. There is no requirement in the directive to bring in equal pay by way of collective agreements. It was rejected in the case of Denmark. The Commissioner insisted on their bringing in the legislation. Senator Robinson did not refer either to problems in other member states and she did not refer to a recent press cutting from The Irish Times of 22 May concerning the problem in Germany.

I thought that might be out of order.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Chair did call the Senator to order on two occasions when it was felt that she was straying beyond the limits that the Chair would normally allow. I have given wide latitude to the Minister so far but he has been even more disorderly than Senator Robinson was.

I want to emphasise that this is material supplied to Brussels. It will come back to us in the form of a report and I will then have no objection whatsoever to discussing equal pay, equal treatment, the contents of the report, the progress that has been made to date and our stand for the future. My Government can be proud of the stand they have taken.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 1 June 1978.

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