Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 May 1978

Vol. 89 No. 4

Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies: Motion.

Mr. E. Ryan

I move:

(1) That a Select Committee consisting of 4 members (none of whom shall be a member of the Government or a Minister of State) be appointed to be joined with a Select Committee appointed by Dáil Éireann to form a Joint Committee (which shall be called the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies) to examine the Reports and Accounts and overall operational results of State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities referred to in Schedule A hereto and the trading and/or commercial aspects of the Reports and Accounts and overall operational results of the State-sponsored body referred to in Schedule B hereto and to report thereon to both Houses of the Oireachtas and make recommendations where appropriate.

(2) That, after consultation with the Joint Committee, the Minister for the Public Service with the agreement of the Minister for Finance may include from time to time the names of further State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities in the Schedules and, with the consent of the Joint Committee and the Minister for Finance, may delete from the Schedules the names of any bodies which he considers no longer to be State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities.

(3) That, if so requested by a State-sponsored body, the Joint Committee shall refrain from publishing confidential information regarding the body's activities and plans.

(4) That the Joint Committee shall have power to send for persons, papers and records and, subject to the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist it for the purpose of particular enquiries.

(5) That the Joint Committee, previous to the commencement of business, shall elect one of its members to be Chairman, who shall have only one vote.

(6) That all questions in the Joint Committee shall be determined by a majority of votes of the members present and voting and in the event of there being an equality of votes the question shall be decided in the negative.

(7) That the Joint Committee shall have power to print and publish from time to time minutes of evidence taken before it together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

(8) That every report which the Joint Committee proposes to make under this Order shall on adoption by the Joint Committee be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas forthwith whereupon the Joint Committee shall be empowered to print and publish such report together with such related documents as it thinks fit.

(9) That 4 members of the Committee shall form a Quorum of whom at least 1 shall be a member of Dáil Éireann and at least 1 shall be a member of Seanad Éireann.

Schedule A

Aer Lingus, Teoranta

Aerlínte Éireann, Teoranta Aer Rianta, Teoranta

The Agricultural Credit Corporation, Limited

Arramara Teoranta

Bord na Móna

British & Irish Steam Packet Company Limited

Ceimici, Teoranta

Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, Teoranta

Córas Iompair Éireann

Electricity Supply Board

Fóir Teoranta

Industrial Credit Company, Limited

The Irish Gas Board

Irish Life Assurance Company Limited

The Irish National Stud Company, Limited

Irish Shipping Limited

Irish Steel Holdings Limited

Min Fhéir (1959) Teoranta

National Building Agency Limited

Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta

Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teoranta

Pigs and Bacon Commission

Radio Telefís Éireann

Voluntary Health Insurance Board.

Schedule B

Gaeltarra Éireann.

Dr. Martin

I wish to make a point on a matter that has been raised in relation to this order — the representation of the various groups in the Seanad involved. We have more or less accepted it as inevitable that there will not be a representative of the Independent Senators. At least, we got no reassurance that a Member of the Independent group would be allowed on to it. Last week, for instance, Senator Robinson made the point that she thought that an independent voice should be represented there but from neither House of the Oireachtas will there be an Independent representative on that very important body. I should like to appeal once again that an Independent Senator be allowed to sit on it. I realise it would be asking too much of the Labour Party to ask them to, perhaps, yield their seat, or to ask Fine Gael to yield their seat to an Independent Member.

To constitute that committee without having account of the Independent representatives here in the Seanad is to act in a manner contrary really to the spirit of the Constitution which set up the parliamentary system. That is one body which certainly would benefit from having an independent voice on it. Independent seats were created in the Seanad in order to have some voice represented other than those of the official political parties. To draw up a committee with a watchdog brief of this kind to look after the interests of the citizen in terms of semi-State bodies and have nobody on it but those who are already aligned with a political party is wrong and contrary to the spirit of the Constitution, the spirit in which the entire parliamentary system here was set up. This has been acknowledged on both sides of the House. I appeal to the Government in this case to investigate the possibility of co-opting somebody onto this committee.

In the last session up to the last minute it was agreed that Senator West should represent the Independents on this. I cannot think of anybody more admirable to do that job. He has made many admirable speeches on semi-State bodies and all his contributions have been models of informed relevance in this area and, indeed, concern. I do not see why he could not at this late juncture be co-opted. One way or the other that committee, if it is eventually set up and composed merely of those who are aligned with different parties, will literally be making a mockery of the entire purpose of the brief. The brief is that they be a watchdog over semi-State bodies to protect the rights of citizens in that connection. Everybody who has been in a political party and in Government over the last two sessions may have some reasons for occluding, winking at or ignoring irregularities in these bodies. An Independent Senator would be free from that stigma. I want to put on record again my extreme sense of disappointment that such a committee as this could be set up without a representative of the Independent Senators on it.

Mr. McGlinchey

Could Senator Martin give us the names of the Independent Senators in the House?

Dr. Martin

Yes.

Mr. McGlinchey

I should like to hear them.

Mrs. Robinson

As I said on the debate on this matter last week I support the view that there should be Independent representation from the Seanad on the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies. However, the matter I want to refer to now relates to the scope of the terms of reference of this Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies. Last week we debated the expediency of establishing such a committee and I think there was agreement on all sides of the House that it was a very necessary and useful parliamentary committee.

One matter which was not discussed at all, either in the Dáil or the Seanad debate last week, and which I would like to raise now, is the question whether the terms of reference of this Joint Committee—in that it can examine the reports and accounts and overall operational results of the State-sponsored bodies engaged in trading or commercial activities which are listed in Schedules A and B — whether these terms of reference enable the Joint Committee to examine the role and activities of DEVCO, the State agencies development co-operation organisation? DEVCO is not a separate legal entity in itself. It does not have a separate corporate identity. It is a co-ordinating unit which was formally established in September 1975. I understand there are now 28 members of DEVCO, 24 of them are State-sponsored bodies and the other four are institutes like the Irish Management Institute and the Institute of Public Administration which are substantially in receipt of State funds. Of the 24 State-sponsored bodies, 12 of them are on the list in Schedules A and B bringing them within the terms of reference of the Joint Committee. The reason why I think it is extremely important that the committee should be empowered to examine the role of these 12 State-sponsored bodies in the areas of development co-operation, and specifically their role in DEVCO as a co-ordinating unit for development aid to Third World Countries, is that the level of activity of DEVCO has grown very substantially and there appears to be some danger of a potential and unforeseen conflict between the trading and commercial aspect of the activities of DEVCO and what seemed, when they were established in 1975, to be the primary purpose, namely, to form part of the official development aid programme of the Irish State. The particular problem arises to some extent from the scale of operations of DEVCO at the moment. They appear to be expanding their operations but not to have easily ascertainable policy guidelines in their growth. For example, during 1977 22 DEVCO agencies, 22 of the 28 members, carried out projects in 73 developing countries. These projects involved the transfer of expertise through consultancy assignments, through training programmes, through seminars, conferences, study visits and so on. This is very worth-while activity, but the total revenue earned in this way was close to £12 million, which is more than double Ireland's official aid programme to the developing world. In other words, it would seem that although originally the primary motivation of the State-sponsored bodies was to assist in Ireland's developing programme in the Third World by providing this expertise, the danger is now that the commercial exploitation of its activities by DEVCO—which distributes part of the official bilateral aid of Foreign Affairs — in fact blur the distinction between commercial activities in Third World countries, which are perfectly legitimate in themselves, and the purpose of providing development aid and promoting development co-operation with these developing countries.

This is an area where a Joint Committee of the Oireachtas could fulfil a key role because it would be in a position to assess what should be the primary criteria and involvement of DEVCO. What is its primary purpose? It is to promote development co-operation in the less-developed countries and in doing so to give a lead and to carry out the basic moral imperative for the developed countries, to use our own unique experience as a State in order to provide special assistance and forge strong links? This should not be envisaged primarily in a profit making context. Unless clear guidelines are set there is a very real danger that the State-sponsored bodies having formed this co-ordinating unit and dispersing a proportion of our official bilateral aid — I think that during 1976 and 1977 more than half the official bilateral aid from Ireland was in fact channelled through DEVCO—could by this means, getting access to and contacts and links with the Third World countries, then be exploited commercially and bring in a revenue of around about £12 million. I do not think that commercial profit is the primary purpose of a State agency for co-operation development and it would be regrettable if DEVCO blurred the distinction between commercial activities with developing countries and the promotion of co-operation and development aid with the Third World.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair feels the Senator is straying slightly from the terms of this debate.

Mrs. Robinson

I am anxious to ascertain at this stage, a Chathaoirleach, whether the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies are broad enough to allow it to examine the role, the development and the activities of DEVCO given that 11 of the State-sponsored bodies in Schedule A and Gaeltarra Éireann in Schedule B are members of DEVCO, in order to lay down general policy guidelines because I think that should be one of the primary functions of the Joint Committee.

Dr. West

I should like to make two points on the establishment of this Committee. I should like to support what Senator Martin has said. If possible there should be Independent representation in the 4 Seanad Members of this Committee. I want to make another point about the importance of this Committee in its general overseeing, watchdog capacity as far as the semi-State bodies named in the Schedule are concerned. We are at a crucial stage in the development of semi-State bodies. We are at a rather dangerous stage.

I should like to refer to the implementation by the previous Government, apparently continued by this Government, of sections of the Devlin Report in relation to semi-State bodies. Many sections of that report are pernicious, particularly the section which Members of both sides have recently complained of, that concerning the salaries of the chief executives and linking them with secretaries of Departments. This is one example of a dangerous tendency.

An Cathaoirleach

Salaries are not relevant on this matter.

Dr. West

I am not going to pursue the matter but I wanted to give an example of what I believe to be a tendency which is definitely against the spirit in which semi-State bodies were set up. Semi-State bodies were set up to fill a wide gap in our economy. They were half-way between the private sector and the public sector and they embodied some of the better features of each sector. One important feature was a certain amount of autonomy vis-á-vis each civil service Department which was nominally connected with each body. This autonomy is slowly being whittled away. The spirit of private enterprise which was brought into semi-State bodies — it still is in a number of these bodies — by the appointment of chief executives——

An Cathaoirleach

That is not relevant on this motion.

Dr. West

I am trying to point out the importance of this committee. I really feel that the present overall tendency is a dangerous one. The civil service tentacles are stretching too far as far as semi-State bodies are concerned. This committee has a tremendously important job to do and it needs to have membership from the widest possible spectrum of political opinion. What is essential for a Committee faced with a great deal of technical detail is a proper back-up service and research facilities. I welcome the establishment of the Committee. It has a very difficult task to do and I hope it will not be hamstrung by lack of facilities and a very rigid interpretation of the framework in which it is established.

Mr. Mulcahy

I should like to comment again, as I did last week when the motion was before the House, that I have some sympathy with the previous speakers but we should keep in mind that the Seanad is set up around vocational panels. It would be just as important that the Independent nominations received from the vocational bodies to the Seanad be taken into account in selecting people to act on this Committee as it is to select the Independent elected members through the university system. What will be important for this committee will be that its Members be capable of analysing what is going on in fairly complex operations of the semi-State bodies. That might be lost sight of in discussions. I have a lot of sympathy with the suggestion that there should be some Independents in the Committee and maybe that would come through a proper representation of the panel interests.

Mr. McDonald

I should like to welcome the setting up of this Joint Committee and in doing so I must say I was interested in the points Senator Robinson made. From my own experience I would not agree with extending this Committee to look after the wonderful work that many of our semi-State organisations are carrying out in the Third World. I do not think we should be critical of that task. I visited those people on many occasions and saw how they are contributing to the development of the Third World. Those people are on secondment only and our contribution in the main is in expertise and manpower. I would like to see a foreign relations committee of this House based on what they have in the United States.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not in order on this debate.

Mr. McDonald

I mentioned that in passing because the point the Senator raised was an interesting one. With the very complex developments in the semi-State bodies, and many of them are expanding at a considerable rate, it is appropriate that the Oireachtas should be closely involved with the work of those semi-State organisations. I hope an opportunity will be afforded Members of the Oireachtas to look at the development in the work of the new Nítrigin Éireann operations in Cork. This is a timely opportunity to see the new development there. I welcome the setting up of the board and I wish my colleagues who serve on it success. I hope they will do a good job.

Mr. Donnelly

I welcome the setting up of this committee. It is a very important exercise economically in our democracy. The composition of the committee is extremely important. I sympathise with the comments of some of the previous speakers and if the point made was that it would be good to have an Independant Senator per se on this well then I would see that as one point. However, in the way it came across to me there is something unfair implied and stated.

First, an Independent, presumably, should be just as independent of other Independents as he is or she is of members of a political party, if the name is to mean anything. The idea that in some way a group of Independents should be represented as a block seems to be a little bit illogical. If it was a case as a matter of principle of having an Independent per se that would be a different matter but to the extent that the point has been made in that form it is a little bit illogical. Another point was a little unfair. The statement that members of political parties for one reason or another might be inclined to overlook some irregularities is less than fair. If they do that, and if they descend to that level, they are suffering from a defect of character. Frankly, I do not think there is any reason to assume that Independent Senators are more immune from that defect than any other member of the human race. The point possibly was meant in a different way and to that extent could be an acceptable one but as it has come across there are some unfair implications in what has been said.

Mr. Staunton

In the broadest terms this order is acceptable for the reasons stated in the debate, the necessity for greater public accountability where semi-State companies are concerned. I welcome to this House the Minister of State, Deputy MacSharry, and wish him a speedy recovery from his recent fairly lengthy illness. Because he is here I should like to say that the areas of dissatisfaction are going to exist around the scope of control. We are dealing here with those semi-State companies which are seen to have a trading or commercial basis rather than other types of objectives. As was stated in the debate, there is dissatisfaction at the inclusion of Gaeltarra Éireann in Schedule B. It is illogical and anomalous in the sense that it is in an entirely different category from the semi-State bodies in the commercial sector in Schedule A and is identical to other bodies such as the Industrial Development Authority, CTT and others which are not included in this charter. It seems that the ultimate objective of the Oireachtas and the Government should be control of all semi-State bodies, irrespective of whether or not they are trading and commercial or what could be described as development in character.

I should like to point out to the Minister that in the debate on the original motion introduced by the Coalition Government two years ago, a motion which was largely similar to that being introduced today, with the single proviso that Gaeltarra Éireann is included in this motion and was not in our one, Deputy Colley, now Minister for Finance, on behalf of the Opposition, stated that he saw no reason whatever why CTT and the Industrial Development Authority, for example, should be included in the motion. If Deputy Colley at that time saw no reason why CTT and the IDA should be included and they are now being included by the Government, consistency would suggest that they should not be included, especially in circumstances where Gaeltarra Éireann are being included for spurious reasons. I hope this is the first step. The Government should be consistent and recognise it as the first step to see how the modus operandi works. I hope it will be the Government's intention within a relatively short time to extend this system to include the totality of semi-State bodies for greater public accountability which the public seek.

Mr. E. Ryan

I should like to comment on what Senator Staunton and Senator Robinson said about extending the scope of this motion. Senator Staunton wants an extension of the scope of this kind of investigation. We should all bear in mind that there are already 26 semi-State bodies on the Schedule and a relatively small committee will have to try to investigate and examine the affairs of all those bodies. To be realistic, it will probably take two or three years for the committee to get around to every one of those bodies. It is far too early to talk about either extending the scope of this motion or extending the number of bodies that can be investigated by the committee.

Minister of State at the Department of the Public Service (Mr. MacSharry)

I should like to reply to a few points made. Senators Martin and West made a point about representation for Independent Senators but I do not think that is a matter for me. It is a matter for the Committee of Selection and I am sure the Independents are represented on that committee and will be able to make their view known there. A point was made by Senator Robinson, and others, about the terms of reference and the fact that the terms of reference would not cover the examination of the activities of DEVCO as such because DEVCO is not a company. It is a loose organisation made up of many companies, non-statutory and with no legal standing. In relation to the committee inquiring into their activities, it can easily do so by inquiring into the activities of the companies that make up DEVCO. The terms of reference can do what the Senator wants them to do in relation to the activities of DEVCO.

Senator Staunton made a point about Gaeltarra Éireann. That organisation was included in the committee's terms of reference by the previous Administration as a compromise during the debate in the Dáil.

Question put and agreed to.