Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 1978

Vol. 90 No. 6

Industrial Development Bill, 1978: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister of State at the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy (Mr. R. Burke)

This Bill amends the existing provisions governing grant expenditure by the Industrial Development Authority in that it is proposed to raise the limit on the aggregate amount of grants and payments of a capital nature which can be made by and to the authority and to raise the limits, which may not be exceeded without prior Government approval, on various grants which the authority may make to an individual undertaking. The Bill also provides for a minor technical amendment to empower the authority to operate a widows' and children's pension scheme.

The Industrial Development (No. 2) Act, 1975 raised to £400 million the limit on the aggregate amount of grants and payments of a capital nature which may be made by the authority, and the limit on the aggregate amount of grants which may be paid by the Minister to the authority for this purpose. The total amount of capital issued to the authority to the end of 1977 was almost £317 million and the authority's capital allocation for 1978 is £69.75 million. It is, therefore, again necessary to amend the statutory limits in order to enable the authority to continue to discharge their functions after the end of this year.

The IDA'S projected capital requirements for the three years 1978-81 amount to over £270 million in 1977 prices; this expenditure is based on the level of IDA activity as set out in the "IDA Industrial Plan 1977-80". Having regard to the fact that this figure is expressed in 1977 prices and that the revised industrial plan, to be published in the New Year, will incorporate higher job approval targets, actual capital expenditure will be significantly higher than the projected figure. Thus, to enable the authority to carry out their functions for a further three years or so, it is proposed to raise to £750 million the limit on the aggregate amount of grants and payments of a capital nature which can be made by and to the IDA.

Business suspended at 5.15 p.m. and resumed at 5.30 p.m.

Minister of State at the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy (Mr. R. Burke)

At present the limit, which may not be exceeded without the approval of the Government, on the total amount of grants which the Industrial Development Authority may make to a particular undertaking towards the cost of fixed assets purchased or leased and towards the cost of factory rents stands at £850,000. In order to keep pace with the increases in fixed asset costs that have taken place since the limit was set at its present level in 1975, and to avoid the submission of an increasing number of what are only small to medium-sized projects to the Government for approval, the Bill provides for the raising of this limit to £1,250,000.

The limit on the amount of grants which the authority may make, without prior Government approval, towards the cost of fixed assets purchased or leased by an industrial undertaking for re-equipment, modernisation or expansion also stands at £850,000 at the moment. It is proposed, for reasons similar to those which I have already outlined, to raise this limit also to £1,250,000.

The Industrial Development Act, 1977, provided for a limit of £850,000 on the amount of training grants the IDA might make, without prior Government approval, to any individual undertaking. Prior to the 1977 Act there was no legislative limit in respect of training grants. Training grants now constitute an important component in the authority's range of incentives, particularly with regard to the authority's efforts to encourage suitable service industries to locate here, and will continue to be important in the years ahead. It seems appropriate, therefore, that the limit on training grants should be kept at the same level as the limit applicable to capital grants. Thus the Bill provides that the limit on training grants which the authority may make without prior Government approval be raised to £1.25 million.

Section 27 of the Industrial Development Act, 1969, empowers the IDA to operate a staff superannuation scheme, subject to ministerial approval. As the provisions of this section may debar the IDA from operating a widows' and children's pension scheme, the Bill proposed to remove this limitation on the authority's powers by the amendment of section 27.

In the context of the present Bill, which raises the limit on financial allocations to the authority, the House will be pleased to note that on present indications it appears that the authority will exceed, by a significant margin, their job approvals target of 27,000 for 1978.

A welcome feature of the high level of job approvals secured in recent years is the share of these approvals coming from within Ireland; in 1977, for instance, over 50 per cent of total job approvals of more than 24,000 came from domestic industry. The authority's industrial plan, 1977-80, which aims at the negotiation during the plan period of projects with the potential to provide over 100,000 jobs at full production, also aims at maintaining the high level of job approvals coming from within Ireland. As I have mentioned already, the plan is currently being revised and the revised version, to be published in the New Year, will incorporate even more ambitious job approval targets.

A noteworthy feature of the IDA'S highly successful performance to date this year is the fact that the new powers afforded to the authority under the Industrial Development Act, 1977, have contributed significantly to this performance. Senators will recall that the provision in the 1977 Act with the most obvious potential for employment creation was that which provided for a new kind of incentive to encourage the establishment of new industrial projects by persons having the necessary qualifications and experience but who would be unable to raise the necessary finance to put the project on a sound commercial footing. The Enterprise Development Programme, as it is named, was launched by the IDA in January, 1978, and I am pleased to say that the response to date has been very encouraging. Nineteen projects with a total job creation potential of 850 have already been approved for grant assistance and worthwhile inquiries are continuing to be received at a steady rate.

The promoters of the projects already approved for grant assistance come from a variety of backgrounds—from university, banking, manufacturing and semi-State—and having individual skills and experience in such diverse areas as management, production, finance, research and marketing. From the response to this programme, it would appear that there are many enterprising people in this country who, with the assistance available under this programme, can set up successful manufacturing projects.

Before closing I would like to say something about one facet of the IDA'S activities that has become increasingly important in recent years, the authority's programme of advance factory construction. In the current atmosphere of severe international competition for projects the advance factory has become an important element in the authority's overall range of incentives. On 20 November the Minister announced details of the second phase of the authority's fourth programme of advance factory construction, which involves the construction of 31 advance factories and of four cluster units, at a cost of £9.25 million. This intensive construction drive is testimony of the Government's commitment to assist the IDA in meeting their job creation targets and, moreover, to advance the programme of regional industrialisation.

Having described the provisions of the Bill and mentioned some noteworthy facets of recent IDA activity, I accordingly recommend the Bill for the approval of the House.

Mr. Connaughton

I welcome the Bill. Its provisions are important for the industrial well being of the nation. As far as the financial assistance is concerned, it is only right and proper that, whatever else happens, the good work currently being carried out by the IDA is maintained and, indeed, accelerated wherever possible. There is no doubt that over the years one of the better types of State-sponsored bodies has been the IDA. They have been extremely successful over the years. However, I would like to take this opportunity of mentioning a couple of matters about which I am beginning to become seriously worried.

When one views the good work carried out by the IDA in the field of attracting foreign industrialists to this country, I would like to make it clear that, particularly in the past two years, an idea has got abroad that we should not go overboard about attracting foreign industrialists to this country. I do not know where this originated. Maybe the Ferenka business in Limerick had something to do with it. I believe it is very important to keep on attracting soundly based foreign firms to this country, because were one to take away the foreign industrialists who came in in the past five or six years our job situation would be far worse than it is now. The IDA are now coming to the stage where they are able to manage, on one hand, the large industrialists from foreign countries and, on the other, give suitable assistance to our own local industrialists, who for one reason or another are able to make a go of things. It does not necessarily follow in the context of what we are discussing that a firm can only be good if it is small. I often heard it said, particularly in relation to racehorses, that a good big one was always better than a small one. I would hope that the IDA would maintain their momentum in the foreign market place to ensure that we get the right type of foreign industrialist.

More effort could be put into the marketing of our industrial products abroad in so far as our offices throughout the world are concerned. We could, in fact, employ more salesmen. By that I mean we should be always in the market place because we are as good as the next from the point of view of attracting industry here. There is, however, one very serious fly in the ointment. I refer to the disastrous labour relations problem we have at the moment. I am very concerned about it. A tremendous number of industrialists might well want to come to Ireland to occupy the 31 advance factories now being built but, if our industrial relations problem remains, I am afraid we may have a very big problem on our hands. In view of what happened in Brussels last night it is imperative we should generate a good economic climate. Judging by what happened last night one cannot help feeling that the other countries do not think too much of us. Everything possible must be done to solve our labour problems within the next few months or this very ambitious programme by the IDA may well become unstuck.

There is another important factor in relation to this Bill. It is that many of our raw materials have not been utilised to the full. I will refer briefly here to a development in the west of Ireland at the moment concerning peat. I am amazed that the, IDA have not become involved in this particular project. Well and good, it is Bord na Móna that would have the overall responsibility for it, but down on the Galway-Roscommon border at the moment there is the possibility of a peat briquette factory being built with a total labour force of approximately 500 people. I have not heard any of the regional offices of the IDA or the county development teams say anything about it and I would take this opportunity to ask the Minister if the IDA have any plans for such a factory. Were it a foreign industrialist who arrived in this country with a promise to create 500 jobs we would have jet planes to get him here and red carpets laid down. There would be a great furore. We have over 20,000 acres of bogland in south Roscommon and north Galway and there has been no official announcement of any kind. It may well happen that we will not get a briquette factory but I would like to bring to the Minister's notice the fact that there is a fair amount of disquiet that the IDA is not involved more in the utilisation of our natural resources.

I am glad to see that the job approvals have topped the 27,000 mark. This is a magnificent achievement. I certainly hope that in the current year this figure will be maintained, if not surpassed. With the number of redundancies at the moment the IDA's figures will be slightly out but it is most important that the job creation programme goes ahead. As far as I can see we are certainly in for more redundancies and, if our job creation targets do not keep pace with them, we will have a net loss worse than what we are experiencing at the moment.

I was delighted to hear that the pilot project programme initiated earlier this year for the smaller type of industrialist has got off to a good start. I would like to know from the Minister if it is intended to inject more capital into this in the next year and what type of prospects are there for 1979? Usually with a scheme of this type you generally attract most of the people interested in the first or second year and thereafter it is likely to lag. There are several areas, particularly in the designated areas, where the IDA could be even more useful than they are from the point of view of grants. I take this opportunity to ask the Minister again why is it the IDA are so very slow to grant aid to concrete and allied products? We have a case in Moylough, in County Galway, where over 70 people are employed in a little village manufacturing cattle slats. The slats were patented and still the IDA do not see fit to grant aid despite the fact that this manufacture is certainly not cutting across any other company in the west. With that type of job creation in a rural areas it is hard to understand why there should not be some grant aid.

What is the relationship between the county development teams and the IDA at regional or local level? Sometimes I think there is a fair amount of duplication. I would like to know the demarcation line.

I certainly welcome the advance factory programme. I see there are four cluster units and 31 advance factories to be built right around the country. What I particularly like about it is that a great percentage of the 31 will be based in areas which are not very big. If we are to stabilise the population in the rural areas that will only be done with well-chosen and well-picked industries suited to the region and the particular area. I believe the advance factory project is a good one. It does not necessarily mean that if a small town has to qualify for an advance factory it automatically gets an industry, but it certainly is a fair bit ahead of a town that does not have an advance factory. Besides that the IDA are extremely lucky—I suppose there is really more to it than luck—in that most of the factory units built in the last five years are housing industries that are good for this nation. We will have failures. We will always have some failures as far as industrial projects are concerned.

It is very important that the regional offices of the IDA are given the type of autonomy necessary to enable them to carry out their duties properly. There was a rumour circulating not too long ago that many of the regional offices were under the thumb of the central office in Dublin to too great an extent. We asked the Minister to ensure that this was not over-emphasised because it is vitally important that the regional offices should have a fair amount of responsibility, a fair amount of control and are allowed to think and act in accordance with what is necessary in a particular region.

Finally, I welcome the Bill. I believe there is only one black cloud on the horizon and it is one which could upset the IDA in its efforts. I refer to our labour relations problem. I would stress on the Minister and the Government that everything should be done to ensure that this bugbear will not bring down the IDA as it has brought down many other things in the not too distant past.

Mr. Mulcahy

I welcome this Bill, and obviously I would want to support the extra powers in terms of borrowing and authority given to the IDA. It is very satisfying to see that the allocation for the authority's capital in 1978 of nearly £70 million was £10 million up on the previous year and, as we can see from the Minister's figures now, the three-year projection of £217 million in 1977 prices implies a capital investment for the authority of an average of £90 million per year. This, of course, is where we would like to see the money going into factories, because that is what produces the healthy jobs.

I am stimulated to draw attention as well to the comments of the NESC on full employment, the Green Paper, where they show the implied capital expenditure of the Government running from £691 million in 1977 to £790 million in the current year and going in 1979 to £930 million and then £1,053 million in 1980. Obviously they are not Government figures but they are figures in the National Economic Social Council Report in Table 251 which are drawn obviously from various statements and answers to questions in the Dáil. That, again, is very satisfying, because it shows a 14 per cent increase in 1978, 18 per cent in 1979 and a somewhat smaller increase in 1980. That shows that the Government are putting the money where the jobs are or can be. The projection is healthy. It is very satisfying to find that the Minister can say that the IDA expect to meet their job potential targets of 27,000 for 1978 and, when we hear all this talk about not creating jobs, we should highlight the duplicity of that. There are 27,000 potential jobs in the pipeline as a result of their efforts. A very happy omen is the fact that in 1977 50 per cent of the total job approvals of the 24,000 that we achieved in that year were in domestic industry.

Sometimes the impression seems to go abroad, as a previous speaker said, that we are filling the country with multinationals and that local industry is doing nothing. It is important to recognise that it is inevitable that we must have the multinationals. We cannot be the country that sits back and lets every other country look for the production units of the large multinationals. Some of these companies have a turnover which is greater than our GNP. If anything is going to be done about a restructuring of the power of multinationals it will have to be done on an EEC level and not at our level. Why has Ireland always got to be the holy Joe? If anything is going to be done in that regard let the larger units do something about it. God knows, we have learned over the last couple of days just how much power they wield. What we need are jobs. I was looking at the latest statistics recently. Our birth rate is running at 22 per thousand of the population and our death rate is 10. That means we are increasing at 12 per 1,000 and we have a great potential in terms of being able to employ people fully in producing goods that will develop our economy.

While saying some good things, I also have a few bad things to say, as the Minister no doubt is expecting, because, while I am very pleased to note in regard to the advance factories, which are a key arm of our industrial strategy and one which we have almost led the world on mainly through Britain and Shannon in the back end of the 1950s, that we have 31 advance factories and four cluster units under way. What bothers me, however, as a Senator operating in the inner city of Dublin where the major unemployment exists is that I still cannot see this cluster down there. I know that the clusters got under way in the Liberties. That is fine, but a year and a half has now gone by and I have yet to see one in north central. This is worrying because it is the area of high unemployment and, despite the fact that I recognise that there are difficulties in buying land and so on, I am afraid that I must here express my disappointment that we have not yet got that cluster in that area. It is badly needed, and all I can do is hope that the measures that I suspect are under way will come to fruition shortly and the Minister will be able to make some announcement about them.

The problems are unique and special. They can only be solved by some kind of priority treatment. The Industrial Development Authority are there to provide employment. We have the situation where there are up to 60 per cent unemployed in the north central area. We have the situation where industry will not even reply to applications from people who make applications from addresses in that area. Some of us have been trying to provide accommodation addresses in order to, at least, make sure that the applicant gets an interview. I will not go too far down that line but, when I have the Minister here in a captive position in front of me, I want to make the point as strongly as I can.

Irish industry tends to be divided into two kinds. We have the new type industry and the old. The old is still under competitive pressure and under pressure to increase productivity. I cannot let occasions like this go without drawing attention to the fact that there are many Irish workers working in the newer type industry who are producing goods at a productivity rate which is at least equivalent to similar workers operating in other countries. When we talk about the low productivity problems, it is important that every opportunity be taken to doff the cap to those workers who, with the right management and capital investment backup, produce at productivity levels which are equivalent to their counterparts in Germany and in the USA. There is nothing new about this. I said in this House before, when I was working in factories myself, particularly in the Shannon area, that we were achieving this all the time and took it for granted. Some of the comments which were made only came home to me when I took more interest in public life as such.

We have a growing new sector of industry which is as productive as its counterparts and, because that part is constituting a larger proportion of total industry, so productivity as a whole is growing. One of the difficulties, of course, is that all industrial workers look for the fruits of productivity increases. They want to get them across the board even though the productivity may only be coming from one section. This is a difficulty and must be faced. In fact, it may well be that bargaining at the level of the firm might be the answer to it, but this is not the place to cover that subject. Nevertheless, it is impossible to talk about industrial development without thinking about productivity.

During the year, we have all noticed, from the accounts in the media, the IDA is coming under a lot of competition, and the Minister mentioned this in his opening statement. It is coming under competition from similar bodies that have been set up recently in other countries and similar bodies that were there for some time but were not as active or as entrepreneurial as the IDA. It may well be that the IDA'S own success has taught other countries how to go about doing the same thing. We see them having greater competition. All I can do is to wish them well and to say that it is up to them to be ahead of the posse all the time and in that way reach their targets.

A somewhat disturbing trend which has already been referred to, is the differential aspect of the IDA offering packages of incentives which are now more or less similar across the country. There are problems, for instance, with companies like Gaeltarra Éireann where at one stage they had the differential and were able to have an edge in attracting firms to go far west. Some of that has got fudged, and I find myself a bit schizophrenic about it because, on the one hand, I want to see lots of incentives given for the inner city of Dublin and, on the other hand, I would like to make sure that the incentives to support the Gaeltacht would have a bit of edge to them on average. I do not know what the answer is, but the problem is there. I suppose it is something that can be changed over time depending on where the shoe is pinching. At the moment it is certainly pinching in the inner city, and we will have to do something about it.

Another concern that I have in looking at industrial development and particularly job creation—I just throw it out for the Minister's attention—is that we have been, as a result of various policies and strategies last year, pushing employment under different headings—the IDA, special youth employment schemes, the temporary employment scheme in the Department of Education, AnCO schemes and so on. I read the report recently issued by the National Youth Council of Ireland. It indicates that maybe some co-ordination might be helpful in relation to all these projects. Most of us want to see things tidy. I do not care about things being tidy if the targets are met and the objectives are achieved, in other words, effectiveness rather than efficiency. At the same time, maybe there is something in it and that some form of co-ordination of that effort is required, particularly given that maybe the youth employment operation at this stage is not as effective as we would like it to be. Maybe the IDA, because they have so much expertise in this area, might take a look at it.

I was jotting down a few figures under the heading of the temporary employment scheme regarding which I have been concerned in the inner city. There was £50,000 of support from the Department of Education for various youth employment projects involving rebuilding youth centres, community centres and getting small furniture shops going to repair broken down furniture and sell it at a higher price. The kind of money is only £16,000, £4,000, £6,000 per project, but it is very meaningful and it works. It gets people interested in something that they can see as their own. Maybe some of those projects are not getting enough recognition or attention. Something I have also learned from that is that it takes time. It is not something that will happen in six months. It takes time for people to grasp that they can do things themselves and can produce products of that kind themselves and there is support for them. I hope that next year these projects will really take off and instead of having a target of something like 400 jobs for a temporary employment scheme, we might have double or treble that amount. The IDA could have a look at that given all the expertise that they have.

I would like to refer to the apparent success of the entrepreneurial scheme which the Minister outlined in his introduction. It is very encouraging to see that 19 projects, with a total job creation of 850, have already been approved for grant assistance. I have been watching some of these and know some of the people who have decided to go into these projects, engineers who have so-called safe jobs in industry or in semi-State bodies who have that yen to do something themselves. It is very good to see even 19 getting under way. I hope that this is a natural lag in the beginning of a new scheme. It will take time for people to get to know about it, make application and break with whatever job they are in. I hope that it will be promoted a little more. Perhaps the IDA would put a few extra pounds into its promotion. I do not hear enough about their project identification unit at the moment. Perhaps the project identification unit might go into partnership with the entrepreneur development unit. If individuals with a yen to have a business of their own who are willing to back it with their courage and time knew of the existence of certain projects then one might be able to match a project with an individual. Perhaps a marriage bureau is needed between the project identification and the entrepreneur development scheme.

With those few critical but mostly supportive words, I would like to welcome this Bill and to wish the IDA all the best in spending the money that we support them with.

Mr. Kennedy

If neither the private nor the public sector can provide the means whereby Irish industry can be extended and expanded and job opportunities created, then we cannot very well complain if the IDA attempt to tackle these objectives mainly through offering financial and other inducements to the multinationals. Consequently I do not oppose this Bill. Most sections of our community would much prefer to see Irish industry completely controlled and owned by Irish interests, despite the fact that it is acknowledged that the motivation for investment, whether by multinationals, foreigners or Irish citizens is much the same, profit, and I do not use that word in the narrow class context. Of course, anybody who invests money in industry is entitled to a fair return but Irish interests, to give them their due, would have a deeper sympathy with Irish industrial conditions and with Irish workers than the multinationals. This is borne out by recent happenings. When all is said and done, the multinationals come in here—we do not complain about this—because they are offered financial and other concessions. They set up a plant and employ Irish workers in the main. They have their own way of doing things, and in the last analysis, if things go wrong or if they find that the profit motive is not coming to the fore quickly enough, they pull out.

Reference has been made to Ferenka. During the Ferenka dispute it was alleged that Ferenka closed as a result of an inter-union dispute. Subsequent events, especially the court proceedings, proved conclusively that Ferenka were pulling out anyway because of the financial position of the company. If Irish interests had been involved in Ferenka I doubt very much that the company would have closed down because the Government, the IDA and other interests would be concerned about the closing down of such an industry and the disemployment of hundreds of workers. Of course the best solution to this problem is not a battle between Irish investors or multinational investors, but the concept of the State taking over certain industries and expanding its sphere of influence in industrial matters.

A short while ago we had here a debate about Irish air companies, and while there were some differences of opinion on certain matters relating to that Bill, everybody agreed that our air companies have done a tremendous job through the years and should be congratulated. The same can be said about Bord na Mona, CIE, the Irish Sugar Company, Erin Foods and all the Irish State and semi-State bodies. There are very talented people working there in administration. There are very good and productive workers. Yet time and time again, the Government have refused to set up what the trade union movement would call a national development authority whereby they would be concerned at the expansion and extension of industry in the public sector. We feel, and many people agree, that our industrial problems and the expansion of industry in our country can be solved only by a much greater input by the State than exists at the moment. Many problems will be solved, not through the multinationals or private interests in Ireland but through State Governmental decisions. I suggest that the Minister should have another look at the possibility of creating a national industrial development authority which would examine the possibility and desirability of the State expanding and extending industry and job opportunities through the existing State and semi-State companies.

Mr. Lanigan

I welcome this Bill and I am delighted to see that the limits for the capital side of the IDA'S enterprise and their grant-aid side have been increased. There is no doubt that in today's society the amount of money that is needed to start off a business is huge. I do not feel at present that the IDA should be constricted by reason of the fact that they have not the proper facilities that they need in any particular case. There has been a raising from £850,000 to £1.25 million in the case of loans which may be given without consulting the Government.

I agree with Senator Connaughton when he said that not enough use is being made of our own raw materials. He instanced peat in the west. One of our problems is that we have a raw material which is not being utilised to its fullest and, because of this, many jobs are being lost. I refer to leather. It is an offshoot of one of our most important industries, the cattle industry, which is allied to the agriculture business but which is also allied to the shoe industry. We can produce the best leather in the world, yet we have a situation where this year more shoes will be imported than would fit every man, woman and child in the country with some left over. That is a fact. More shoes were imported than the population of the country this year, and that is a shame. We are able to produce some of the best leather wear in the world and yet we have a situation where people are losing jobs daily in this industry.

There is very little we can do, with regard to the EEC countries, to safeguard the jobs in this industry. It is very hard to prove, if 30,000 pairs of shoes come in from England, that they are being dumped here and are being sold off by a subsidiary of an English shoe company before anybody has even copped on to the fact that they have come in. Thirty thousand pairs of children's shoes came in this year and were sold before anybody copped on to the fact that they had come in. They were dumped in here. There is no question about that. We can do something about imports of shoes from countries outside the EEC. We should be doing what is done in other countries in which leather is an important by-product.

Mexico has an advantage over us on the North American market, which is a very important market for Irish shoe manufacturers. In Canada, up to this year, we had nearly 75 per cent of the market for men's shoes. This is in jeopardy at present because of the Mexican dollar being tied to the US dollar. We are at a disadvantage in monetary terms. Apart from the disadvantage we have in monetary terms, there is a disadvantage in the sense that Mexico will not allow one pair of shoes to be imported into Mexico. They will not allow one piece of leather to be imported and they give tax allowances to their exporters. This leaves the Irish shoe manufacturer in a very bad position. I know this because of the shoe industry based in Kilkenny. I know that they have done a tremendous job on the export field. They are probably one of the leading shoe exporters in the world. The quality of their shoes is unbelievable and they are quite reasonable by any standard. If we are going to operate in the world market let us try and operate on equal terms. Let us stop the importation of shoes from outside the EEC countries where possible—it may not be possible. If you want to send a pair of shoes into Taiwan you pay 90 per cent duty to get them in. Why can we not do the same with countries outside the EEC area?

Argentina is another big manufacturing leather producing country. Argentenian leather comes in here and the exporter of that leather gets a premium on his exports from his Government. He sends partly or fully finished shoes. He gets a better tax concession for the fully finished shoes than for the partly finished shoes or the leather, but still the concessions are there.

We must control imports in the leather and shoes industry. Jobs are being lost daily. The IDA need not get very involved in this if we put controls on. Possibly the Irish shoe manufacturers should be the ones to control the importation of shoes. If they were, they would know the price at which the shoe was coming in, they would know where it was coming from and they would know the numbers. In these three ways they would be well able to compete. They would know the price and they would know whether they were being dumped or whether they were coming in under normal conditions.

Acting Chairman (Séamus de Brún)

Import control does not arise in this. The Senator should confine his remarks to the IDA and matters arising therefrom.

Mr. Lanigan

We are discussing the IDA and, if we are discussing the IDA, the IDA'S job is to produce jobs for this country and the loss of jobs is something that the IDA should be very interested in. For every job lost it costs this country a hell of a lot of money to reproduce it. If we can produce jobs by controlling imports it is relevant to the Bill that we are discussing.

A point was made about regional development organisations, county development teams and the small industry division of the IDA not working in cohesion. There might be a lot of effort lost and the results of these efforts might not be too good because of the lack of cohesion. The idea of setting up the regional development offices was a very good one but sometimes they can be used by the people as political platforms for themselves rather than places to extend the value of their own region.

I have always believed that small is good and I am very interested in small industries. We can get hung on the major industry, but the backbone of this country, through the years, has been on the small industry, whether on the farm, in the workshop or in manufacturing. The small industry is one part of the industrial sector which has maintained its level of employment and has increased it. In some cases it has increased it by 100 per cent by one worker to one. It has increased it by 50 per cent by one to two. When somebody can produce 200 extra jobs in a major industry in which there are 4,000, it is supposed to be a marvellous thing, but the jump from one to two is the hardest for the Irish businessman. We should be giving the Irish small business man a lot more help than we are at present. The man who is working in his own backyard workshop is providing a service for his own area. He will never be out of work because, if bicycles go out of fashion, he will repair fuel pumps; if fuel pumps go out of fashion, he will change again. He will not be unemployed.

In country areas, the Government should be helping the IDA by giving that sector of the industry which is not being helped at present a helping hand and, that is, the backup industry—the small country workshop without which the farmers could not remain in business because they do not stop work at 6 o'clock in the evening or at 12 o'clock at night. They keep working while there is work to be done, whereas the big factory will close down at 6 o'clock, everybody goes home and nobody worries too much about it.

The service industries are totally inadequately supplied with capital in terms of grants which are available to manufacturing industries. They are also totally inadequately supplied with tax concessions. These are the industries which, throughout the years, have provided the bulk of the jobs in this country. We must have manufacturing industries and large scale industries, but we must look after the small ones. The Kilkenny Design Workshops were viewed with a degree of scepticism by the locals but now we have a number of very small industries set up right throughout County Kilkenny and they are very high quality craft industries. They are providing jobs in small villages in country areas. Not alone are they providing jobs but they are training people in crafts which possibly would have been lost but for the setting up of the design board services.

Have the IDA given enough thought to the use and the value of Irish emigrants in their search for jobs? Often the IDA people when they go abroad tend to move in circles far removed from the bulk of our Irish emigrants. They tend to move in the bigger industrial sectors. They do not move where the Irish are, in my opinion. I just saw a case in point recently where a very small industry involved in seamless guttering in County Kilkenny was set up by two boys who came back from the United States. They have two brothers in the United States who are helping them in their work here. They are helping them in the supply of material. They have now set up another company in England and they are sending material that is manufactured in County Kilkenny to England. The people who are importing into England are people who had emigrated from Kilkenny to Japan. There are many instances where use could be made by the IDA of the fantastic energy and expertise of our Irish emigrants. I hope that I am wrong when I say that I feel that our IDA representatives tend to go too much for the foreign person abroad—the native Americans rather than the Irish Americans, or the native British rather than the Irish in Britain or the native Canadian rather than the Irish Canadian. Similarly all over the world there is an untold wealth of expertise and energy to be tapped in these areas.

I wonder how many people in this Chamber have heard of the product identification unit. The first time that I saw it was when I happened to get the IDA monthly report. I noticed they had a small little paragraph in which the product identification unit was mentioned and it was stated that they had given a grant of £250,000 to a firm in Dublin to set up a manufacturing unit for a product that was already being manufactured in County Kilkenny. The firm in County Kilkenny was trying to get the money from them to increase their employment content, and here on the other hand there was a product identification unit giving a grant to an English company to go into competition with an Irish company. If the product identification unit is going to keep its identification to itself or to a select group it is not identifying, not doing the job for which it was set up. Why is there not an advertisement in the business magazines? I have not yet seen an advertisiment in business magazines from the product identification group. There are only two, I think, Irish Business and Business and Finance, and I have not seen any advertisement in those magazines that there is a product that has been identified that could be manufactured in Ireland and that there was potential in inviting people to come along and let them know it could be manufactured. That unit must bear looking into. I hope I am wrong in what I am saying: I am only giving my personal opinion on this.

I was delighted to hear Senator Mulcahy mention the productivity of the Irish worker. Too often we hear that the Irish worker is not productive. If you give the Irish worker the tools he will do the job. Too often when we hear complaints about productivity we are talking about people working in conditions that are not conducive to productivity and working with machinery which is possibly totally obsolete. If you work with totally obsolete machinery you cannot be productive. On this question I spoke to the German Ambassador and he said that after touring the German factories in Ireland he found that the productivity level in the general factories in Ireland was much higher than in any similar factories in the German area. The facts are that we will and can produce if we get the machinery to do it.

Since we are talking about jobs—and that is what the IDA are there for, the production of jobs—the loss of jobs worries me. One of the causes of loss of jobs in manufacturing industry and in shops all over the country at present is the advent of roadside traders who swoop in on a town, a village or a city and in two days are gone. You have very prominent people throughout the country renting dancehalls, hotels and large buildings to groups who are coming in and advertising cut-price goods, whether it be porcelain, leather jackets, electrical goods or whatever it is. They are using these halls to sell goods at what seem to be cheaper prices than are available in the market places. There is no way in which they can be tested for quality: nobody knows where they are coming from and they are creating a job loss situation throughout the country. It is estimated that every week £25,000 goes out of Kilkenny to these people. The public think they are getting bargains. They may be getting bargains in the short term but when the husbands of some of these wives lose their jobs because of the fact that they are using these roadside traders then the penny may start dropping. The sooner that legislation is brought in to deal with this matter the better.

I welcome the Bill and sincerely hope that with the extra amount of money that is being provided through the IDA our job creation problems will be solved, because if not we are all in trouble.

Mr. A. O'Brien

I should like to join with other speakers in welcoming this Bill. We are all aware of the part that the Industrial Development Authority have played in the industrial development of the country down the years. We are conscious of that and we wish the authority well in the years ahead.

The vast sums of money to be made available to the Industrial Development Authority should mean that we would be given a much more comprehensive account of the working of the authority since they were established. There have been some great successes and there have been some failures. I thought that the Minister's statement would have been more comprehensive in that regard. Seeing that so much public money is involved and seeing to what extent our plans for the future depend on the success of the Industrial Development Authority, we have reached the stage when we need a much deeper, more comprehensive and analytical examination of the activities of the authority down the years.

We have had reference to the number of jobs created during the year, and I compliment the authority on that. Against that success we must take the figure of redundancies. We should be in a position to examine whether these redundancies were due, in the first instance, to industries having been supported by an IDA grant, industries which even at the time of being set up here did not appear to be viable. We know the cases of textile industries established in various parts of the country—many of these have closed down. At the time they were established it was obvious, because of the trends and difficulties in countries that had a long tradition and a lot of expertise in this field, that there was not a bright future for that industry here.

These things have happened in the past, and we should be given an opportunity of examining them so that we would know exactly the rate of success in particular fields and the rate of failure in other fields. We should know when these redundancies are due to inadequate management, labour troubles and to what extent, they are due to obsolete machinery. Were there any cases of redundancies or closures because the particular industry had difficulty in getting a grant to equip it with modern plant and machinery? These are all matters that should be looked into.

I am glad to learn from the Minister's statement of the success that has attended domestic industry. It was felt at all times by a big number of people that in cases where an industry had been established here for a long time and had its roots in the country, where the management and the workers had proved their worth, the IDA should willingly help such an industry when it required further expansion. I am glad to see that particular activity is successful and I hope that the figures relating to it will be an inducement to the IDA to devote more attention to the further development of industries of that kind, industries that have proved their worth in various fields, and industries that are rooted in the area with management and work force taking pride in their work and their achievement and whose hopes are built on further expansion.

It is true, too, that we want greater co-operation between local authorities and the IDA with regard to the road network. In some areas there is great difficulty in having industry established because of inadequate roads. In Killeshandra, where two of the most flourishing industries in the country are based, the road from Cavan town to Killeshandra is in such a bad state that it is an added cost on the industries there. There are many areas like that, but this is especially true of parts of the country not served by the railway. There should be greater co-operation between the Department of the Environment, local authorities and the IDA regarding that matter.

I would like an assurance from the Minister that the regional development organisations which have done much useful work in assessing the capabilities and potential of industrial development in an area will not find their work restricted because of the lack of financial support from the Government. I am a member of the North-Eastern Regional Development Organisation and we have found from time to time that much useful work that could be done with a view to preparing the way for further in-dustrialisation of that area has to be greatly curtailed because of shortage of cash. The local authorities make their contribution and a further contribution is made from the Exchequer. Unfortunately that has been so meagre in the past that these organisations cannot make the contribution towards our development and towards assisting the IDA that they would otherwise do.

Mr. Hyland

Our national development programme is based on a plan to create the maximum number of jobs. All of these jobs will have to be created by the establishment of new industries or in the extension and improvement of existing industries. Any Bill which strengthens the resources of the agency responsible for this task at national level is to be welcomed. For this reason I join with the previous speakers in welcoming the Bill. This is the second piece of legislation within 12 months to come before the Dáil and Seanad which strengthens the power of the IDA and increases its flexibility in dealing with one of our most pressing national problems. It is an indication of the Government's concern in this particular area, and it is an indication of their determination to come to grips with the problem. It is also an indication of the Government's confidence in the agency which has been established, the IDA, to implement our national industrial development programme.

It is important that as much of our available resources as possible are channelled into this area of productive investment. If we are to make any real progress with national development our efforts must be in the area of production. The greatest amount possible of our national resources will in future have to be channelled into production. I believe that job creation, desirable and all as it is—and there is nobody in this country who would question the desirability of increasing jobs at the present time—for the sake of job creation alone, while it may be correct in the short-term, is not sufficient. In the long term job creation will have to be based on production, because that is the foundation on which the economy will have to be built if we are to make any real progress.

Very often I am disappointed when I see people in influencial positions making references to and very often encouraging and inciting situations at national level, which is not in the best national interest. References have been made here in this debate already to the very unfortunate labour relation situation which exists at present. I do not think anybody in a responsible position in the Dáil or Seanad would want to say anything that would aggravate such a situation. We have a position where those of us who are interested in national development must at least make a passing reference to this unsatisfactory situation. We are all serious in our attempts, and the Government are serious in their attempt; no doubt the Opposition parties are serious in their attempts to create jobs. We are doing our best to encourage foreign industrialists to come into the country but any foreign industrialist, looking at the labour situation at present would not be very encouraged by what they would see. For this reason I believe that in this area the future is very much in our hands; we must make a responsible decision as to whether or not we are going to play the game as far as our overall national development is concerned.

I believe a Chathaoirleach, that the establishment of new industries is something that is vitally important for us, and this point has been stressed by previous speakers. In the early days of the establishment of the new industry there is an urgency and a need for a certain amount of flexibility; a certain amount of give and take, both from the point of view of management and from the point of view of workers. The new industry needs to be nursed in its early years if it is to get the opportunity that it needs and deserves to get off the ground. For this reason all concerned—Government, trade unions, workers and management—need to have a commitment to ensure the success of our industrial programme.

I would like to refer briefly to a situation which may not be directly concerned with the Bill before the House but which is one of vital concern as far as the proucts of Irish industries are concerned, and this is an area in which the Minister of State himself has taken a particular interest. It is sad to go into some of the large stores in this city at present or to go into any of the chains of super-stores throughout the country and to find that some of them are stocking exclusively imported products. Perhaps unconsciously they are doing this, but if they have any sense of national commitment at all they should recognise the fact that the more goods we import and put on our shelves in our supermarkets and shops for sale the more we are reducing the demand for the produce of our own Irish labour force and we are in the long term contributing to the very serious unemployment situation which we have at present. It is short-sighted on the part of these stores to embark on such a programme. While they might be benefiting in the short term they are in the long term undermining our efforts here to create jobs and I believe they are, to a certain extent, undermining the progress of the industries in which they themselves are interested.

Many foreign industrialists are exploiting the efforts of our "Buy Irish" campaign here. I may quote, even by way of a lighthearted approach, something which happened to myself just a week ago: I went into a shop to buy a suit of clothes, and because I am conscious of the need to buy Irish goods and perhaps because I am conscious of the fact that I am a Member of the Oireachtas—and I certainly feel that Members of the Oireachtas should at all times set a good example—I looked quickly at the brand inside the coat and I saw the word "Ireland" and that left me happy enough. I bought the suit, took it home, and when I went to put it on I discovered that there was another label on the pants which stated that the suit had been manufactured from good English yarn in Britain. I had another look at the coat to see what had gone wrong and found that the label said the suit had been designed in Ireland. I immediately conjured up the picture of somebody at a drawing board drawing a suit, and that was the total input of labour as far as Irish workers were concerned into the manufacture of my suit. This is a dishonest approach on the part of some foreign clothing manufacturer who is conscious of our desire to buy the produce of Irish labour and who wanted to cash in on the situation by, in my opinion, misleading the Irish shopper who went into the shop.

Due to the efforts of the Irish Goods Council many people are now more conscious than ever they were before of the need to buy Irish. I would like to emphasise the word "quality" because due to the efforts of the Irish Goods Council and due to the introduction of the now easily recognisable Irish goods slogan, Irish purchasers can readily recognise——

Acting Chairman (Mr. Reynolds)

I fear the Senator is wandering from the Bill. However, he has made his point.

Mr. Hyland

I apologise if I am, but the point I am making is that if we are to expand Irish industries, if we are to give employment to Irish workers, we will have to become more conscious of the need to buy the products which they are producing. It is in that context that I refer to it.

No matter how much money we put into job creation, no matter how hard the Minister and the IDA may work in relation to the establishment of new industries, it will all be in vain if there is not a commitment on our part to make the programme work. I see it as being the challenge which is facing the country, and it is in our hands as to whether we accept this challenge or whether we allow the clock to be put backwards in relation to our much needed industrial development programme. Much credit has been given to the IDA for their success, and there is no question about it this credit is very well deserved indeed. Their record is there and their members are becoming more expert in relation to the tackling of the industrial development problem. They are certainly very courteous and very approachable as far as local authorities and various development associations throughout the country are concerned. For this reason any credit that has been given to them is deserved and merited.

It is encouraging to note from the Minister's speech that the enterprise development programme, which was launched here inside the past 12 months, has been successful, resulting in the establishment of 19 new projects and the creation of 850 new jobs. This bears out a view which I have personally held for a long time that we are not short of entrepreneurs provided the incentives and the encouragement are provided for them.

References were made by previous speakers to the need to maintain the small industries in our small rural areas. I certainly think that the IDA should give more thought and more consideration and greater encouragement to these small industries. I say this particularly in relation to the so-called sensitive industries. Reference has been made to concrete products, and I would like to include in that timber products as well. There are in every county projects which could be got off the ground and which would give local employment if some form of financial incentives were provided for them.

I have said that credit has been given to the IDA and I want to join in those tributes, but I want to be critical in one regard: I am not always happy in relation to the IDA's selection of areas for industrial projects. I say this particularly in reference to my county of Laois, where we have not got what I would consider our fair share of the projects which have been established all over this country by the IDA in recent years. I can never understand why a town like Portlaoise, situated as it is on two major road networks, Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Limerick, and which has one of the best possible industrial sites provided by the local authority has not attracted a major industry.

I want to pay a tribute to and say thanks to the Minister and the IDA for the fact that we have now been allocated one of the advance factories. From our point of view this is particularly welcome, but I do not see any real intent on the part of the IDA to locate in Portlaoise a major industry. When I refer to a major industry, I mean an industry capable of employing 700, 800 or 900 people; an industry similar to the industries which have recently been established in Newbridge such as the Polaroid industry, or the one recently established in Kilkenny. I want to state quite clearly that I have no objection to the industries which are being located in either of these two areas. But, Laois is one of the most underdeveloped counties in the country; facts and figures are there to bear out my case. It is interesting to note that the countries designated as underdeveloped a few years ago have a higher income per capita now than the County of Laois.

Many Senator colleagues listening to me, who drive rather quickly through the town of Portlaoise, may find it strange that I have to stand up here and make a statement to this effect. That is the reality of the situation. Despite the best efforts of Laois County Council and our county development team we have not attracted the kind of industries which other areas have attracted. I wonder what these other areas have got that we have not got and in which they have been so successful. If political muscle has been responsible for the progress in other areas we, in Laois, are now fast developing that political muscle. The people of Laois have been very patient in relation to the industrial neglect of their county, but I do not think they will be patient much longer. For this reason I would ask the Minister to give serious consideration to the case recently presented on three occasions to the IDA in relation to industrial development in that county.

I want to refer to another area of potential development as far as Laois, and perhaps part of Kilkenny, are concerned. Previous speakers referred to the need and the urgency to develop peat products and our boglands. I want to refer to another area of energy or fuel resource, that is, the coal deposits which we have in what is generally known as the Leinster coalfield area which takes in part of Counties Kilkenny and Laois. The Minister has in his Department a report which is not credible or reliable as far as the projected resources of the Leinster coalfield is concerned. Quite recently I accepted an invitation by a small group of workers in the Crettyard area of County Laois to see an operation there, when, at their own expense they bored or dug a shaft down to an extent of 50 feet. At 50 feet I saw they were mining a coal resource far in excess of that contained in the survey the Minister has in his Department in relation to the resources of that area, far in excess of the findings of that report. They have proven beyond a shadow of doubt—with the high cost of energy at present—that it is an economic proposition, even from their point of view with very make-shift equipment, to mine and bring to the surface quantities of coal lying beneath the ground in that area. This is an area at which the IDA, the Minister and the Government should take a serious look. We are not asking anybody to take a shot in the dark because these people have proven that it is not necessary to do so. They did so at their own expense. Great credit is due to them. Some of them were unemployed and they availed of their unemployment to endeavour to prove what they believed, because they had worked for years in those coalmines. They never accepted that coal resources did not exist there. Rather they embarked on that project which has been unquestionably successful. I urge the Minister to take a special interest in this development to ascertain whether, even through small grant assistance, these mines could be reopened even on a small scale from the point of view of providing local employment not to speak about the value of the fuel resource itself.

I fully support the Bill. I wish the IDA every success in their campaign for industrial development in the future. I hope the next time I speak here in relation to the Industrial Development Authority I will be able to give them credit for having corrected the imbalance as far as my own county of Laois is concerned from an industrial point of view.

Mr. Kilbride

I do not intend to detain the House very long in regard to this matter of industrial activity on the part of the Industrial Development Authority. In the recent past it appears that the Industrial Development Authority introduced a grant system and involved themselves in some commitment to industries which did not get off the ground successfully, which they had seen, over a number of years, to require further injections and into which they had reason to inject money for the purpose of maintaining employment. With hindsight it appears that the Industrial Development Authority had been reluctant to grant aid to industries which have since proved to be capable of expansion and of producing a higher standard product. I can bring the instances to which I refer to the notice of the IDA. Proof that the claims made by the promoters were genuine when they asked for grant aids and were refused still remains to be seen. When an industry is seen not to get off the ground, when a party or firm with more expertise comes on the scene and injects its finance, such an industry should be grant-aided, even after two or three years of independent existence. If proof of such a case is sought I can give it to the Minister.

In my county of Longford two major industries were sited there within the last two years since the initiation of the programme. This will have the effect of creating considerable employment. The circumstances of employment in Longford seem to be enhanced because there are good labour and management relations in regard to the operation of other industries at present, and, indeed, there have been such relations in the distant as well as the recent past. The reality of the success of industries must be accepted as lying in fair production, fair recognition by management and a humane approach in regard to the fact that whatever is produced must bear a relationship to what is paid, and the other way round; that not more can be expected by way of payment to the producer or the employee than that which carries fair recognition of profit to the industrialist who puts his money into it. I am happy to say that this sort of circumstance is recognised between the unions and industrialists in my county. It is one of the greatest incentives to attracting industry into any area.

I would suggest that the Industrial Development Authority give grants proportionate to and in relation to the application of a production scheme that would enable workers to see that the more they did the better they were paid and that that, in turn, would reap greater profit for workers, industrialists and management. That is the key to success in industry here. If the IDA have difficulties—and I am sure it is not unfair to say that they have—in various parts of the country, very often it can be traced to unfair approaches in regard to either the amount expected by way of production in recompense for work done, or vice versa. It is important that, as a nation, we learn the lesson that whatever is put into an effort must be respected and paid for, and that whatever comes out of it should not be begrudged to the people who had the genius and ability to create such employment and the opportunity to produce the particular goods involved. This is an aspect of our life here that has proved, in part, our greatest difficulty in the past.

The Industrial Development Authority give grants to people who have presented a good case. Such cases have been grant aided for industries with a potential which the IDA feel is proper. If the IDA do not give such grants, there is the CDC who are prepared to give a grant to somebody setting up an industry not grant-aided by the IDA.

In the matter of cluster factories, mentioned here, it is difficult to see to what extent one can reconcile the provision of accommodation in a cluster factory for a firm or a person who is grant-aided and entitled to get floor space at a certain price, with the case of somebody else doing it the other way who will be provided with such a different rate. This reconciliation as far as local authorities are concerned should be looked at by the Minister. We should not have two sets of circumstances or anomalies in relation to the same matter.

I welcome the Bill. I want to assure the Minister that whatever help and aid the IDA and he, as Minister, can give to industry in my county always will be welcomed. I welcome also the major industries now being established there. I hope that equal and perhaps larger industries will follow them in County Longford.

Minister of State at the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy (Mr. R. Burke)

I should like to express my gratitude to the Members of the Seanad who have contributed and to thank them also for the very warm welcome they have given to the Bill. The welcome is reflected in that passage of my introductory remarks which referred to the fact that the IDA this year will exceed, by a significant margin, its job approvals target of 27,000 for 1978. This is something that is obviously seen and been welcomed not only in the Seanad and Dáil but throughout the length and breadth of the country. The Senators who contributed made wide-ranging points. I shall try to cover as many of them as possible in the time at my disposal.

The question was raised by Senator Connaughton of the importance, when attracting foreign investment, of ensuring that it is soundly based, that the factory will be suitable to the Irish climate and to our labour climate generally. This has always been one of the cornerstones of the IDA's approach to potential foreign investors. I can assure Senator Connaughton that the IDA are very conscious of the need and do also examine very carefully any project suggested for Ireland.

The Senator mentioned also the question of suitable assistance to Irish industrialists. This assistance can be seen to be granted by the fact that over 50 per cent of the IDA's job approvals for last year were in home-based industry. Surely this is proof that the IDA consider domestic operators so important.

As far as the question of greater efforts throughout the world are concerned, the IDA, over the years, have expanded their chain of offices and are prepared continually to further expand it if the need arises. It is not merely a question of siting an office in a particular city. I know from my experience of travelling with the IDA on a number of promotional tours and from the amount of promotional work undertaken by the Minister on behalf of the IDA that it is not just a question of siting in a city; the whole world is the market place of the IDA and they take advantage of that market place.

Senator Connaughton, together with a number of other Senators, mentioned the industrial relations problem here. I do not want to dwell at any great length on it here. But it would be wrong to get the industrial relations problem out of context. In regard to foreign-based companies here, the record in subsidiaries of overseas firms in Ireland has been very good. The vast majority of foreign industrialists who set up here have never had a strike. That is not to say that there is not a problem. I could do no better than to quote the Minister in his reply on the Second Stage debate in the Dáil when he said at columns 207 and 208 of the Official Report of 29 November 1978:

Therefore it seems to me that when we have the opportunity, as we had today, to solve one of our greatest national problems we are a very foolish and shortsighted people if we do not avail of the opportunity, if we do not so regulate our affairs that the chance that we have will not be thrown away. If we throw away that chance by selfish or petty action on the part too often of small numbers of people for what too often would seem comparatively slight reasons, we will have a great deal to answer for to the up and coming generation.

This puts in context the problems of industrial relations, how people must face their own consciences in any industrial dispute and how they approach it.

As far as the good economic climate in the country is concerned, this Government were elected on a promise to improve the climate for industry, improving the situation, providing a climate for industry and for entrepreneurs generally to expand. Again through the figures of the IDA's approvals this year it can be seen that this climate has been created. I am very happy with the situation of IDA approvals for the year; it proves the type of economic climate that obtains.

Senator Connaughton also, together with a number of other Senators, mentioned the whole question of raw materials. For example Senator Lanigan mentioned the leather industry. I was glad that the materials were expanded, not just from mining, because so often debate on raw materials gets caught up merely in the mining sphere. There are many other raw materials—grass and so on; also coal and peat—where there is potential for expansion.

If I might mention the leather industry, I agree totally with Senator Lanigan on his remarks about the need for an expanded leather industry here. I should like to expand somewhat on the problems we face in the leather industry at present referred to by Senator Lanigan, that is those created by the actions of other governments, in particular in South and Middle America. Irish Leathers Limited have announced the proposed lay-off of about 400 workers because of problems created by the ban on the export of hides from Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay and the subsidy being paid by these governments to their tanning industries. The Government here have been very active at EEC level, to ensure that this unfair competition will be met by countervailing duties, by endeavouring to get the governments of the countries I have just mentioned to remove unfair subsidies and the unfair competition created for our leather industry. Senator Lanigan can rest assured that we are well aware of the problem and that it is being tackled as a matter of priority.

With regard to the peat briquette factory mentioned by Senator Connaughton, I am not familiar with the exact state of play on this project in the Roscommon-Galway area but I will have it examined. There is one thing that I would like to mention to Senator Connaughton—and perhaps for the information of other Senators also—I deduced from him that he seemed to be under the impression that the briquette factory would not get grant assistance from the IDA. That is not so. State companies are eligible for the full range of assistance available to private companies.

The question of redundancies and of job maintenance arose. It was raised by a number of Senators. Senators Mulcahy, Lanigan and Hyland mentioned it. It was introduced under a number of headings, under the Buy Irish campaign and so on. I could not agree more with Senators that obviously it must be a priority not only to produce extra jobs, but to maintain and preserve those existing at present. This is very much part of the Government's programme.

The enterprise programme was mentioned also by a number of Senators. I am delighted, as were they, that it has been such a success, that there are already 860 job approvals for this year from 19 projects. As far as the availability of extra finance is concerned, this will be made available, as required. The suggestion was made that the enterprise programme was merely a flash in the pan, that there would be many applicants in the first year but that subsequently would drop off. Experience will prove that the opposite will be the case.

As far as the concrete products and timber area are concerned with regard to the grant assistance policies of the IDA, I will have the IDA contact directly the Senators who mentioned these points.

I was very grateful for the welcome given by Senators to the advance and cluster factory programme. This has been, and continues to be, one of our greatest incentives for attracting industry into the country. One suggestion was made that the IDA were lucky to secure such a high occupancy rate in these advance factories. I can assure Senator Connaughton that there is no luck involved: it is a lot of hard work put in by the IDA, by the officers of the IDA, by the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy, by the Government and by all other agencies involved; it is pure hard work.

As far as co-operation between various authorities at regional and county development team level the IDA and so on is concerned this is a matter on which the Industrial Development Consortium have been working very successfully.

Senator Mulcahy referred to the fact that the Government were putting such considerable sums of money into our job target. As the Senator rightly said, the Government were elected on a commitment with regard to jobs. The Government are now involved in meeting this commitment. That is what this Bill is all about. Senator Mulcahy and Members of the Seanad generally can be assured that the Government will continue to make even more intensive efforts to see that this curse of unemployment is removed from the Irish scene.

Senator Mulcahy also mentioned that the multinationals must be welcomed in here. Of course they must be welcomed. While we would like to see all of our employment being created at local level, the facts of the situation are different; it cannot be done. By and large, the multinational companies that have come into this country have been of tremendous assistance to us, not just in the job situation but also in the increased technology they brought in, the training they have given to their workers and the spin-off effect in the supply industries to these multinationals.

Senator Mulcahy in particular mentioned the problem of advance factories in the centre city area. He welcomed the cluster going up in The Liberties. I want to assure him that the IDA are committed to the construction of cluster units in the north inner city and are at present negotiating the purchase of a suitable site which has been identified in the area. Small industry is seen as having a special role to play in the development of the inner city because of the difficulty and the cost of obtaining large sites. Therefore, the Senator can be assured that the IDA are doing everything possible to bring this factory to the north central area as soon as possible. It has been identified but has not been acquired as yet.

With regard to the very disturbing information Senator Mulcahy gave the House about industrialists who will not even reply to applicants from centre city addresses who apply for jobs, I would use this forum to appeal to all industrialists and all employers not to continue this bad practice. I have no doubt they will desist from this. It is an appalling practice and I hope it will stop.

The question of the productivity of Irish workers was mentioned by Senator Mulcahy and by a number of other Senators. The fact that the IDA have been so successful over the years is due to the fact that the economy is thriving. It is not just a question of management. It is also a question of the productivity of the workers, and I welcome the comments made by Senators about the level of productivity. This productivity, of course, can depend a great deal on good management and good equipment. As to the question of competition to the IDA from other countries which have a similar type of operation to the IDA— most countries have this, even the most developed such as Germany and America and this is an ever-increasing problem. The IDA have constantly to review their grant structure and the incentives they are providing. I can assure Senator Mulcahy and the other Senators that the whole grant structure is under constant review.

In regard to compartmentalisation of the job creation programme as between the IDA, youth projects, temporary employment projects, and so on, Senator Mulcahy seemed to infer a certain lack of co-ordination. I can assure the Senator that, on the contrary, there is total co-operation and co-ordination at the top in this whole matter. He also mentioned the success of the enterprise scheme and I thank him for his comments on that.

The project identification programme was referred to by Senator Mulcahy and also by Senator Lanigan. The object of this programme is to channel through Irish firms spin-off opportunities from major new industries and opportunities for the manufacture of substitute products for existing imports. As far as the spin-off from major new industries is concerned, it has not been necessary to advertise the possibilities as they have been identified. The IDA's approach has been to make direct approaches to the Irish companies which are known to have expertise in the various areas in question and, as far as the import substitution is concerned, the Irish Goods Council have been very active in the import substitution programme for the spin-off industries. A number of exhibitions have been held around the country. The AnCO exhibition was held last February. There was a similar project in Shannon, another in Athlone, and there are to be two further projects, one in the Sligo area and one in Cork. The whole question of project identification and import substitution is very much in hand.

Senator Kennedy mentioned the question of a national development authority. The Government in their election manifesto committed themselves to the setting up of an industrial development consortium, and one of the aims of the consortium was to co-ordinate the activities of the relevant State agencies in order to maximise the contribution of these agencies to industrial development. I know that the Congress of Trade Unions have made various representations to the Government at different departmental levels, including our own, but while the case has been made the need has not been accepted yet. The co-ordination and other work now being undertaken by the industrial development consortium are really what the national development authority, as envisaged by the trade union movement, would be involved in, and really by setting up a national development authority all you would be doing is setting up one more semi-State body further to complicate the co-ordination and co-operation system.

I have already referred to national resources, the raw materials, and the leather industry and so on and I agree totally with Senator Lanigan here. In regard to co-ordination between the regional development and the county development teams and the IDA this is something that is going on and, through the industrial development consortium, I hope this will improve even further. I could not agree more with the Senator when he says that small industry is good. This is a very important concept. The small industry is a very important sector of Irish industry generally and SFADCo have been given responsibility for a pilot project which is at present under way in the mid-west region. They have been given this pilot project responsibility to encourage the development of small industry, and, while it is a pilot project in the mid-west region, it is hoped that on the results—and the results so far have been very encouraging—it will be extended on a nationwide basis. Senator Lanigan can be assured that the Government are very conscious of the importance of small industry. A small industry, if it goes to the wall, will have an effective five, ten, 20 or 30 people out of employment, and the effect in an area will not be as great as it would be in one of the larger companies, for example Ferenka, where 1,400 people were put out of work with the appalling overall effect that has in an area.

The ideal situation would be a nucleus of small industries but experience has shown that an economy will not work like that. But the Senator can rest assured that the IDA and the Government are very anxious to help small industries to develop.

The service industry side was mentioned by Senator Lanigan. The IDA have a service industry programme, but it is aimed at services such as computer services, engineering design, and so on, and is mainly aimed at the export market. The type of service industries which Senator Lanigan was speaking about, garages and repair workshops, are not eligible for IDA grants at the moment. However, if any such projects involve an increase in employment they would be eligible for assistance under the employment incentive scheme which comes under the Department of Labour. This would be for additional workers.

I was glad Senator Lanigan mentioned the Kilkenny Design Workshop and the work being done there to help industry and, in particular, the fact that they have succeeded in having a spin-off effect in the setting up of small industries in the villages around Kilkenny, and I would take this opportunity to congratulate the Kilkenny Design Workshop on the tremendous work they are doing. I am glad it is appreciated.

As far as the IDA's programme abroad in contacting Irish emigrants who "have made it" abroad, I will bring this to the attention of the IDA. I am sure they are already very conscious of it but I will bring it to their particular attention.

Mention was made of the work of the Irish Goods Council, and I appreciate the compliments paid to the work of the Goods Council.

With regard to roadside traders and the use of halls for selling imported goods and the effect that is having on job losses, I could not agree more with Senator Lanigan on this, and the Government have approved the heads of a Bill designed to control roadside trading and, as an interim measure, I will be bringing in, I hope within a matter of a week to ten days, legislation on the type of trading that has been going on.

A number of other points were made by other Senators about industries in their own areas. I can assure the Senators that I will have every one of the matters mentioned examined by the Department and by the IDA. They can rest assured that every one of the problems will be examined and attended to. In so far as the case made by Senator Hyland about Laois is concerned, Laois has a very soft spot in my heart, because my mother was born in Laois. Senator Hyland can rest assured that I will have the case of Laois, in particular, examined fully.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.