It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 1, 2 and 3 and to take No. 2 at 6 p.m. if not reached before then; business to be resumed thereafter.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, I am disappointed that motion No. 22 is not being taken. It appeared on the Order Paper for the last two sitting days and we gave way by request to permit legislation to be brought forward and concluded. We understood it would be taken today and I would ask the Leader of the House to ensure that it will be taken next week.
On an entirely different matter, I should like to ask how we can possibly discuss item No. 2 when we do not have the debate from last week available to us. We spent the whole of last Wednesday discussing the Second Stage of the Prisons Bill. I consider that the efficiency of this House is totally impaired by this extraordinary inefficiency. I do not know which Minister is responsible, I gather it is the Minister for Finance, but the printed debate should be available to us by the Monday after a debate. This is ludicrous; I do not see how we can take item No. 2 today. The situation is absolutely appalling.
There has been some difficulty in this regard.
I am glad that Senator Hussey raised this point and I would agree with her. We spent many hours last Wednesday discussing the complex issues that arise out of this brief Bill. I asked today in the General Office for a copy of the report of last week's debate and was told that it was not available. I would ask that the Committee Stage of this Bill not be taken until the Official Report is available—at least for some hours. I understand and I appreciate that there may be some urgency as far as the Government are concerned, but could we take the Bill tomorrow? Could the House sit tomorrow for the Committee Stage of the Prisons Bill?
The debate will probably be available very soon today.
Will it be in time for us to consider it before 6 o'clock?
The Chair can only hope so.
As the business has been ordered as I understand it, we have the Report Stage of a Bill which probably will not take very long. The Bill has been very fully debated. There have been a number of amendments and there is a further Government one arising out of discussion on Committee Stage. The Bill is at the last stages of Report Stage. If that is the case and the Prisons Bill is ordered after that, we may not have an opportunity of looking at the Official Report.
We are now trying to confirm the exact time the debate will be available today.
Might we adjourn in the meantime?
There is other business ordered.
I agree with Senator Hussey. There should be a break in order to enable us to read the report of the Second Stage debate. There were very complex issues raised. The Minister made a very long replying speech in the context of the Bill itself and I should like an opportunity of reading what the Minister said before we take the Committee Stage.
As a compromise and as the Leader of the House envisages that the Bill might not be taken until 6 o'clock and even if the Report Stage of the Sale of Goods Bill finishes before that, perhaps the House could adjourn until 6 o'clock so that the point raised by Senators Robinson and Hussey could be met.
I should like to support what Senator Cooney has said with regard to motion No. 22. That was listed for last Wednesday and in order to facilitate the Minister for Justice we agreed that it be left over but I questioned the matter at the time and I thought the motion would be on the Order of Business for today. I should like to know when it is likely to be taken.
I think that motion No. 25 dealing with the proposed changes in school transport is a matter of great importance. It is a cause of great concern at the present time to parents and to principals of schools. It is a motion that should be discussed before the end of this session because the changed system of transport will be in operation from September on. I should like a promise from the Leader of the House that this motion will be taken before the end of this session.
The position is that as far as the motions are concerned, unfortunately the Minister is not available today for No. 22 but it is proposed to take it next week. In regard to the other motion that is mentioned, it would not be Fine Gael's turn again until the fourth next one so that unless we are sitting all through the summer I cannot hold out any possibility that it will reach Fine Gael's turn again during this session. All I can say is that No. 22 will, I hope, be taken next week and certainly if not next week the week after.
As far as the business for this afternoon is concerned, the Prisons Bill must be taken this afternoon. There is a time limit on it but I would not object if the House wished to alter the order and take No. 1 first, No. 3 second and No. 2 third but No. 2 to be taken not later than six o'clock.
Are we in a position to know whether the Official Report will be available in sufficient time before 6 p.m.? Would it not be possible to take the Prisons Bill tomorrow?
Confirmation is being sought as to when the report will be available.
I asked the Leader of the House would it be possible to take the Prisons Bill tomorrow. As I understand it, it will be in time if we take the Committee Stage tomorrow.
Last Wednesday the Senator was prepared to take all Stages of this Bill at 7.55 p.m. She had no report at that time so what is the reason for the change?
I was not prepared to take it then.
We always seek to have the report available before a Committee Stage.
I should like to support Senator Robinson's suggestion that time be given because there were quite a number of questions that I asked on Second Stage of the Prisons Bill and I would certainly like to have the opportunity to look back on some of those before we come to Committee Stage of the Bill. I also believe the Minister said on that occasion that he would reply to those points and I think it is best that in order to have a proper discussion we should at least ensure that the Bill be taken not before 6 p.m., given that the report is available to us, say, by 4 p.m. That would give us just two hours to look at it. That is an hour and twenty minutes away now.
I should like to make the more general point that I can remember a number of occasions in this and in the other House when the record has been hard to obtain within what should be considered a normal lapse of time. It seems to me that there are very many ways in which the servicing of the Houses of the Oireachtas is not serious and, in fact, is worse than being not serious. It proceeds on the basis that it looks as if the people responsible for the servicing of the Houses of the Oireachtas are not concerned that they should work efficiently. This is a pathetic and ridiculous situation as are many other aspects of the working of the Houses of the Oireachtas. I simply want to put it on the record—I do not want promises because I have got past the stage of believing them—that this is serious and is making the work of Senators more difficult than it ought to be and, in fact, is a disgraceful situation.
The printing contractors print the Dáil and Seanad Debates but the recent extension of Dáil sittings to four days and, indeed, unavoidable staff shortages recently, have more or less caused this deficiency.
Could I again ask the Leader of the House if it would be possible for us to take the Committee Stage tomorrow? As I understand it, the Bill would still be in time for the purposes of renewing the three-year extension which has been agreed on Second Stage. Is that not the position, that we would be in time if we sat tomorrow?
I also contributed to the Prisons Bill and I accept its importance but Senators who, in addition to having contributed were prepared to listen to the debate, should not be in any great difficulty now dealing with the Committee Stage. I make that point in addition to the point made by Senator Willie Ryan.
In reply to the observation of Senator Donnelly—I say this as someone who on this particular debate stayed with a lot of the debate—I was quite prepared to go beyond the Second Stage last week when matters were fresh in my mind. That applies to other Senators. If we were there we did know and we could proceed to the next Stage but a week later I think it quite normal that people do not recall the detail with the same precision and are therefore disadvantaged.
Could we accept the suggestion of the Leader of the House that No. 3 be taken secondly and see what the position later is in regard to the Official Report?
Yes, but No. 2 would have to be taken not later than 6 o'clock. As the House is well aware, I am not responsible for the printing of the Official Report. I am only responsible for proposing how the Order of Business should be managed and I do that particularly at this time of year knowing that there are going to be a great many Bills coming within the next few weeks and if the Seanad wants to rise in or around the middle of July it is imperative that we use every Wednesday at least and use the full time available. Consequently it would be most undesirable that we should adjourn early this afternoon without completing the business on the Order Paper. My purpose is to ensure that we get through the business as quickly as is reasonably possible.
In general terms, whereas I appreciate that a point can be made that it is difficult to discuss the Committee Stage without having the report of the Second Stage before us, this has never been a rule of the House. There have been many Bills over the years where all Stages were taken the same day. Usually if there is a gap between the Second Stage and the Committee Stage it is a question of one week and the point that the report was not available may have been made now and again but there is no rule of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and neither is there any precedent for saying that a Committee Stage cannot be taken because the report of the Second Stage is not available. If the House thinks this is a matter of importance it is something which should be referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. On this Bill I could not, in the light of the pressure of business, agree to adjourning this Bill until tomorrow.
I have been informed that the debates will be available in half an hour.
Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.