It is proposed to take Nos. 1 and 2 in that order.
Order of Business.
I appreciate that this week we are to devote most of our time to the Finance Bill. I had hoped that item No. 8 on the Order Paper would have appeared on the Order of Business to-day. This would be purely to designate a date for the Second Stage of the Sexual Offences Bill, 1980, which was printed and circulated a week ago. All Senators are acutely aware that the summer recess is approaching. I had hoped—and all of us involved in the presentation of this Bill had hoped—that we would be able to take the Second Stage next week.
Obviously I do not intend to say anything about the content of the Sexual Offences Bill. Senators are aware that we spent a considerable time, 15 months ago, debating a motion on the same lines. Everybody was unanimous in their consideration that there was great urgency about this matter. For these reasons it is unthinkable that we should delay until after the summer recess to take the Second Stage of this Bill.
This is the first time this new Standing Order has been used. All the Independent Senators in the House have nominated me to present this Bill. The spirit of this Standing Order is that a Second Reading should be given speedily to such a Bill. I will conclude by saying I do not wish to be troublesome or obstructive in any way. I would very much like to ask the Leader of the House, since we are sitting all this week, if he would put item No. 8 on the Order of Business for tomorrow so that we may fix a date for the Second Stage of this Bill.
I should like to support Senator Hussey in her plea that this Bill should be put on the Order of Business for tomorrow so that a date for Second Stage may be fixed. She has given all the reasons for this. In a matter of this urgency to leave it over until October would be a very great shame and would be wrong in the circumstances of the matters that are dealt with. Who knows how many human beings may suffer between now and next October? The point of putting it on the Order of Business tomorrow would be that we could get some date fixed at any rate before the summer recess in July. I should like to support Senator Hussey very strongly.
I should like to draw the attention of the Leader of the House to motion No. 20 on the Order Paper: "That Seanad Éireann, noting the continuing impasse in Northern Ireland, calls for constructive attitudes and constructive policies which will lead to a resolution of the problem.” I believe there would be considerable support on all sides of the House, coming from all groups, for a discussion on Northern Ireland and particularly at present before the summer recess. It would be an appropriate time considering the policies now being discussed. I hope the Leader of the House will find it possible to arrange to debate the motion on Northern Ireland before we adjourn for the summer.
I see no reason why the wishes on the one hand of Senator Hussey and Senator McGuinness and, on the other, of Senator West, should not be accommodated and I strongly support the pleas of each of them.
I should like to acknowledge most enthusiastically the claims of Senator Hussey's Bill. It is a Bill to which I put my name and to which all the Independent Senators in the House put their names. When an allied issue was raised for discussion last year while I cannot speak for everybody certainly I remember speaking very strenuously in favour of the necessity for dealing with this very serious issue which Senator Hussey raises on Item No. 8.
The Bill is entitled "an Act to amend the law in relation to sexual offences." I agree with Senator Murphy that the two issues are not in any sense incompatible. On the other hand, if either issue is raised the opportunity for a debate immediately ensues in the House and, as the House is moving towards a recess, it is necessary to balance the relative urgencies in the Bill and the motion.
Without prejudice to my extreme concern about Item No. 8, Senator Hussey's Bill to which I have given my absolutely unqualified support, and Motion No. 20 which is signed by myself and Senator West and Senator Hussey, I would have to come down in favour of the latter. Senator McGuinness asked how many human beings might suffer between now and the end of the recess. One cannot help immediately being stimulated to think about the number of people who have suffered over the past 12 years of increasing daily traumata in Northern Ireland. There seems to be an imminent initiative of some kind from Britain on the matter and our Government seem to have a policy with regard to Northern Ireland.
The Senator is going a little too far. We are on the Order of Business. We are not discussing Motion No. 20 or any other motion.
It is the priority of concern as between these two matters that I am concerned with. With due respect, I do not want to cross you on the matter. It is the question as to which of the two would——
It is not necessary to go into the merits of either matter.
The priorities are in order. At this moment before we go into recess, in terms of political priority, many people are thinking about the Northern Ireland situation. Many people are wondering how we feel in the South on that subject. The Seanad has been the body that has pronounced on it most often and has debated it most fruitfully. This is a most opportune time to find out what the feeling of the nation as reflected in the House is.
Therefore, I would tend to say that at a moment when various solutions are being floated in the public press, from the notion of direct rule to the notion of Ian Paisley becoming the new Prime Minister of Northern Ireland——
I would ask the Senator to be brief on this.
I will take your direction. I apologise for being long-winded. This seems to be an absolutely opportune moment for this House to rehearse our attitudes towards this extremely important, very long-standing and extraordinarily agonising problem which faces our nation. The major issue which faces our nation today is the problem of Northern Ireland and that is the one which should take priority.
It is certain that we will not be able to discuss both matters before the summer recess. Even the Independent Senators seem to be in some dilemma as to which item should take priority.
There is an urgent need to amend the law relating to sexual offences. I should like to congratulate Senator Hussey on tabling this Bill. It does not really matter whether we discuss it in this House this week or next week. The Dáil is going into recess at the end of next week. Even if the Bill were to pass all Stages in this House, it would not be possible for the legislation to go through before the end of the summer. For that reason, there is not really much point in this House upsetting the Order of Business suggested by the Leader of the House and debating a Bill that cannot be passed in all its Stages in the Houses of the Oireachtas before the end of the summer. For that reason we should support the Order of Business as outlined by the Cathaoirleach.
Having listened to this discussion I would be inclined to order my priorities in the order suggested by Senator Martin, that is, the more worthwhile subject for debate, in terms of any effect that might be produced by a debate, would be a debate on Northern Ireland. We all know that even if the Sexual Offences Bill gets a Second Reading, it will be voted down by the Government party. The Minister is on record as saying he will be proposing a Bill to deal with this problem. Quite obviously the arrival of this Bill on the Order Paper will do what I have no doubt the proposers want, that is, to speed up the Minister's hand and try to force his hand in bringing forward his legislation. It has been a feature of this Government that many Bills are introduced only in the aftermath of a Private Members' Bill. Tabling the Bill will probably achieve what its proposers want to achieve, that is to bring forth a Bill from the Minister quickly. Consequently I would be inclined to think that a debate on Northern Ireland would be of greater immediacy as far as the House is concerned and would be of more value nationally.
I should like to express my sympathy with the pleas for an early discussion on both item No. 8 and Motion No. 20. I do so without wishing to upset the Order of Business proposed for today.
It seems to be the case that the Minister is preparing a Bill like the Bill mentioned in item No. 8 on the Order Paper. Since I have noted rather regretfully the unwillingness of the present administration to listen to amendments after a Bill has been tabled, it seems to me a good thing that this House should be able to express its opinion before that Bill reaches the stage of printing and circulation. There is a very strong argument for debating this Bill, both on the basis that it will speed up a tardy Minister and also on the basis that it will enable us to express our opinions here. We had remarkable unanimity the last time this subject was discussed 15 months ago. It will enable our opinions to be taken note of in the drafting of the Bill, which is a better mechanism than trying to get them into a Bill after it has been printed and circulated. I am strongly in favour of taking item No. 8 on the Order Paper as quickly as possible. Senator Hussey has suggested that it might be taken tomorrow.
The situation about the North is this, that we know a British initiative is pending. We know it is substantially decided on, though we do not know what is in it. We understand the Taoiseach knows what is in it, but the rest of the country does not. After decisions had been taken but not made public or implemented I would find myself in something of a difficulty. I would be rather hung up discussing the North now, not knowing what the current British initiative is, but knowing that it is definitely decided on. We will be sitting for another few weeks. We will know very quickly what is in the Northern initiative. We might take item No. 8 on the agenda—the Sexual Offences Bill—tomorrow and we might keep open the option of a debate on Northern Ireland before we rise. I wanted to add my voice to those who have said that both matters are urgent. I do not see any reason why they should not both be discussed before the Seanad rises.
The idea of legislative reform must be supported in all fields. The subject which Senator Hussey's Bill proposes to deal with is of the greatest importance having regard to the increase in the incidence of the crime with which it deals and for other reasons. We must be very careful to ensure that any legislative proposals should be effective. I do not think the proposals in Senator Hussey's Bill are effective. Therefore, I see no point in discussing it. I think they are naive, immature and, above all, impractical.
The Senator should not comment on the proposals.
In deference to Senator Hussey whose sincerity in the matter I do not doubt, I have sent to her a detailed analysis of and my comments on the Bill. I would support the motion that we should discuss Northern Ireland before the recess. That is a matter of even more importance.
I should like to make a number of comments on the matters raised. First of all, in relation to the Sexual Offences Bill, 1980, I should like to support very strongly the House giving time for a Second Reading of this Bill before the summer recess. I am not in the least persuaded by the matters that have been raised by other Senators, not going into the merits of it, but saying that since there is a Government Bill being discussed, or being thought about, there is no point in giving time to debate this Bill. I do not accept that.
It is time that we broadened our approach to legislative initiatives. This is a Bill that is before the House. In my view it incorporates a number of important reforms in the law relating to rape. It is broad enough to encompass any amendments that might be proposed.
We cannot discuss the Bill at this stage.
I am not discussing the merits or contents of the Bill. What we are discussing is whether or not we take this Bill before the summer recess. I would argue very strongly that the Oireachtas is impoverished if the only legislation we discuss and pass has to come from a narrow Government source. I say that with great emphasis. We are impoverished if we will not take important, serious and thoughtful initiatives from the source from which they come, whether it is an independent source or an Opposition party source, allow them to be discussed, make progress, and make important reforms on that basis.
It is a pity that we adopted so much of the Westminster model of a parliament and left out the importance of backbencher initiative, the importance of the role of an elected representative of the people in putting forward legislation and having it discussed and passed, with or without amendments. The title and content are broad enough for any amendment in the law relating to rape to be in order. Therefore, I do not accept that the Government cannot make their imprint on this Bill but, nevertheless, let it go forward. If we did that, then the Seanad would have already discussed, debated and passed this Bill. It would speed up the process for the Bill——
The Senator is far outside the Order of Business.
I have made the point on that particular item. I will turn now to the other motion which has received a lot of support—the motion on Northern Ireland. I would welcome an opportunity for a debate on Northern Ireland before the summer recess, although I share some of the reservations expressed by Senator Keating. It is, nevertheless, an extremely important and vital area, and we do not have enough opportunities for serious discussion. We ought to make our views known on the record at an early opportunity.
Since we seem to be discussing our business and our potential business over the next few weeks, I should like to raise another important motion to add to the check list. I would hope that there might be an opportunity for a discussion on Motion No. 18, which is a motion noting "the significance of the report and recommendations of the Brandt Commission contained in the ‘North-South: a programme for survival, 1980'". This is not North-South in a Northern Ireland context but North-South in a world context. That report has extremely important proposals and urgent recommendations in relation to the Third World.
We cannot discuss that report on the Order of Business.
I do not intend to. On 26 March 1980, in the Seanad, during a debate on foreign policy in relation to Iran and Afghanistan, I mentioned that I was going to table the report which has now been tabled for debate as a motion and that, in my view, it was one of the most important documents to have come on the world scene. This is from the Official Report of the Seanad Debates, Volume 93, No. 13 of 26 March 1980. The Minister for Foreign Affairs who was in the House that day intervened to say: "I agree with the Senator." Then I went on: "I hope the Minister will be available at a relatively early date for a debate on that report". The Minister appeared to nod when I said that. The nod obviously is not recorded. I have the impression that the Minister for Foreign Affairs does accept the importance of the Brandt Report, the urgency of discussing it, and that he might be prepared——
The Senator has made her point sufficiently.
I would ask the Leader of the House, therefore, to ascertain whether the Minister for Foreign Affairs would be available for a debate on this issue before the Seanad rises. It has not been debated in the Dáil. It will be a matter for a United Nations conference at the end of September, a major United Nations conference. It would be important to have a debate in the Oireachtas on the record of our views and our attitudes towards the Government's possible initiative in that area and, if we are counting heads, it is probably the area which is of most significance in human terms of all the motions on the list.
Ó thaobh an Bhille seo—An Bille um Chionta Gnéis—ba mhaith liom mo chomhgháirdeas a ghabháil don Seanadóir as ucht gur thug sí an Bille seo isteach. Ag an am chéanna ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil a fhios againn go léir gur phléamar an cheist seo le déanaí agus do theaspáin an taobh seo den Teach go rabhadar i bprionsabal i bhfábhar Bille den tsaghas seo a bheith ar fáil. Tá a fhios againn go bhfuil an Bille seo ins an píoblíne agus mar gheall ar sin táimse ag rá go mba cheart fanúint go dtí go dtabharfaidh an tAire a Bhille féin isteach.
The Order of Business I proposed will probably take us the rest of this week, so it is unrealistic to think we can take anything else today. All I can say about the various propositions made by Senators as to things we should discuss between now and the end of this session is that I will bear them in mind.
Order of Business agreed to.