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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Dec 1981

Vol. 96 No. 14

Adjournment Matter. - Legal Aid Centres.

I thank you, Sir, for allowing me the opportunity of raising on the Adjournment a matter that has come to my attention with some regularity during a number of years. I refer to the question of free legal aid. I am sure most people here would agree that it was a pity the provision of civil legal aid, which is what I am talking about here, was not really conceded by this country but was extracted out of us by the European Court on Human Rights. As a citizen of this country I found that embarrassing since it relates to something that was obviously of fundamental importance. However, a legal aid board was set up. Criticisms were made at the time about the means test being inadequate and the initial number of centres was criticised as were the restrictions on the service.

The report of the Legal Aid Board for 1980 was issued last week and, to my great concern, the chairman of the board announced that three out of the seven centres are currently closed to new clients except for emergencies. Unfortunately, I searched the report but could not find in it any definition of an emergency. Therefore, I cannot be too precise about how many emergencies they deal with. But what clearly comes across is that the present extremely limited service is grossly overloaded, so much so that they have had to close these centres. They mention that, as things stand, with the present level of service, the present level of staffing and the present number of centres, this pattern of intermittent closures to new applicants until the backlog is dealt with will be a feature of the board's activities in the future.

The law, they say, is open to all; but so are the doors of the Shelbourne Hotel so long as one can pay. The law is supposed to be open to all and I understood that was the function of the Legal Aid Board. The history, as outlined by the board, is that they proposed an extension to 21 centres last year, because that was their assessment of the minimum number of centres that could give proper coverage, and they sought £1.9 million from the Government of the day to do so. The Government allowed only about half that sum, £0.95 million and, therefore, the plans for an extension to 21 centres had to be put in abeyance. I have come to learn already that, in parliamentary terms, nothing is ever decided against; it is just put on the long finger, and the finger gets longer or shorter depending on the state of public finances. In other words, nothing worthy is ever decided against. The proposal to extend the service to 21 centres was put on the long finger.

More ironic from my point of view was the fact that the board then conscientiously made further plans on the basis of the funds allocated to them. They advertised for further staff and they say in their report that they were satisfied with the number and quality of applicants for positions. Then they were told that, because of the embargo on public service recruitment, they could not fill the posts they had advertised. It all adds up to a fairly sorry history. Nobody can put it better than the board themselves have put it in the concluding paragraph of their report, where they say, in relation to the future, that if the funds provided for 1982 are insufficient to allow for a reasonable level of expansion, the consequences for this completely new service will be extremely serious. They say that seven law centres are simply not enough to provide a nationwide service, that the pressures now being experienced by the staff in some centres are such that, unless the board can open additional centres and recruit more staff, they will have to close centres to the public temporarily from time to time to alleviate those pressures and to enable arrears to be cleared. They go on to say that this will mean the denial of legal advice or aid to persons for whom the scheme was intended, because in many cases delay in dealing with applicants means just that and that, if the scheme continues with the low degree of priority that apparently is being allocated to it, with restrictions on recruitment and on funding, they will not be providing even a minimum legal aid service.

It is important, since it would appear that the service of the Legal Aid Board is being cut back, to identify where they are working. The overwhelming number of cases dealt with were in the area of matrimonial and family law. In the short period from August to December 1980 they dealt with 391 matrimonial and family law problems. That introduced unique arrangements where both sides of a matrimonial problem were involved, whereby solicitors from two different centres had to be utilised in order to avoid any embarrassment. The centres are so enormously scattered that there were solicitors travelling from Galway to Sligo or from Sligo to Galway in order to provide this kind of minimum privacy and to avoid embarrassment. The obvious waste of Exchequer funds in this sort of anomalous arrangement needs no further comment. It will continue for as long as the centres are so scarce. Apart from the obvious injustice that is apparent in the board's report, it would bother me if this was an indication of the general approach to restrictions and cutbacks in the public service generally. We have a number of very eloquent assurances from the Taoiseach and from various Government members that, whatever changes, cutbacks, additional taxation and so on that are needed to rectify the crisis in public finances, they will not be at the expense of the most vulnerable, the least articulate and the poor in our society.

At this stage everybody is aware of matrimonial problems. If one considers the fact that in seven centres, which had only limited publicity, almost 400 matrimonial problems were dealt with in the very early stages of these law centres, one gets some idea of the extent of this problem. The text of the board's report makes it clear that the number of applicants was rapidly building up as the law centres became known. This has had to be stopped. There is obviously a huge area of human misery which at least was beginning to be alleviated by the limited service that these boards provided. This appears to have stopped, if it has not actually started to contract. What bothers me is that those concerned are obviously an inarticulate group who do not complain if they do not get legal aid. They are probably the sort of people who are least capable of looking after their own interests, who are least capable of speaking up for themselves. It is, therefore, an area in which cutbacks could be made in a politically painless fashion because there will not be any real retort from those who are deprived of the service. The Legal Aid Board obviously will speak up but those who are suffering from those cutbacks will just carry on, enduring hopeless marriages and hopeless family violence situations, irrespective of what we do or say in this House.

It is not just a question of cutbacks. They were never adequately funded. That point should be brought out.

I could not disagree with Senator Robinson. I was just talking about the Legal Aid Board's report, but of course she is right. They were never adequately funded. They are inadequate. The board wanted a trebling of the number of centres to provide at least the minimum service. This was not granted. The public service recruitment embargo has been imposed on a service that never really got off the ground. It would appear that there is no intent to extend this service. It would appear that the victims of this cutback are going to be the most vulnerable, are going to be the least articulate, are going to be the poor. It would appear to me that that contradicts the Government's assurance that this group in society will not be a victim of our present economic circumstances. I am very glad the Minister is here.

I would appeal to the Minister and to the Government to ensure that we get a a properly funded legal aid system.

The board apparently are talking about £2 million to £3 million to fund 21 centres and, presumably, to staff them reasonably adequately. That would not be completely adequate. The means test seems to me to be unrealistically low and some of the other provisions of the scheme seem to be a bit hair-raising in spots. Some other controversies that have arisen are a bit hair-raising, also. Nevertheless, 21 centres would be at least a major step forward. They would not be enormously expensive and they would help to alleviate a huge amount of human misery in an area where we tend to be very coy, that is in the area of matrimonial disputes and family problems. We tend not to want to face up to those problems in our society. It is very easy to ignore them and I think they will be ignored and will continue to cause enormous suffering, enormous pain and agony because of what appears to be a decision not to expand, extend and support properly the Legal Aid Board. I appeal to the Minister and to the Government to reconsider this apparent policy decision.

I should like to point out to Senator Ryan and to other Senators that when it is stated that three of the Legal Aid Board's seven centres are actually closed at the moment the exact position is that the two Dublin centres and the Cork centre are unable at this point to take on new cases other than emergency cases which I will clarify for Senator Ryan. He seemed in some doubt as to the exact meaning of the emergency situation. It would appear that where there are cases involving physical violence, where an immediate court action is required to prevent the development of an irretrievable situation, the law centre will facilitate the very unfortunate person in that predicament.

The existing clients at the law centres are being dealt with and new clients at this moment are being informed that the law centres cannot deal with their cases and cannot take on new cases. However, the Legal Aid Board estimate that they have found it necessary to turn away about 100 new clients from the Dublin centres in a period of a week. The board estimate that the temporary restrictions on taking new cases will continue until the beginning of January in the case of the Cork centre, and until the middle or the end of January in the case of the Dublin centres. A similar situation arose around this time last year when the Legal Aid Board found it necessary to restrict taking on new clients other than emergency cases for some weeks from about the end of November.

I am concerned that most of the new clients of the Legal Aid Board in Dublin and Cork will have to wait until January or February before their cases can be taken on. I can assure the Senator that the Government are concerned that there should be delays in dealing with clients at any of the Legal Aid Board's law centres. The Government are acutely aware of the need to provide adequate services to the public from these centres and also to expand the existing level of services in so far as is economically possible. I share the Senator's concern about this matter and I take this opportunity to stress my own personal commitment to the provision of an adequate legal aid service. It has been said already that the legal aid service as set up has been shown to be inadequate.

I have taken it on myself to review the legal aid scheme. In fact, I was waiting for the Legal Aid Board report as a basis for reviewing this scheme. I am aware of the complaints which have been made pertaining to the means testing, to the inadequacy of the number of law centres and also to the restrictions imposed by the scheme in relation to the type of actions which may be taken on. The Legal Aid Board in their annual report for 1980 remarked that the pressures now being experienced by the staff in some centres are such that unless the board can open additional centres and recruit more staff they will have to close centres to the public temporarily from time to time to alleviate those pressures and to enable arrears to be cleared. Personally I find that situation unacceptable. I can assure the Senator that from the Government's point of view we will take every step to ensure that there will be no recurrence of this situation.

At this very time the position is being examined by the Government in the context of the 1982 Estimates and I am optimistic that there will be an expansion of the service. I am hoping that as a result of the review of the service we can look at the faults within the system and examine them to see what remedies are necessary. I will certainly be recommending those remedies to the Government in the hope of an early implementation. It has to be accepted that the scheme, like any scheme which has been in existence for a short time, will have growing pains and the difficult task facing me at this point is to identify the areas where those growing pains are manifesting themselves at the moment so as to eliminate them as quickly as possible and thereby have a proper legal aid scheme, a scheme which, as Senator Ryan has fairly remarked, was imposed upon us by the European Court.

I can say with a certain degree of optimism and in deference to Senator Ryan's possible understanding of the Government's approach to the cutbacks and having regard to the economic climate which we are experiencing, that there will not be cutbacks in the service and that we will have expansion where necessary. In the general review of the legal aid scheme I would hope for an early implementation of any recommendations which are put to me.

I have one question and it is in relation to the review of the scheme. It is extremely important that this review should take place as a matter of urgency but I would ask the Minister to consult with a number of other bodies, with FLAC for example, who have very valuable experience, with legal practitioners and with many organisations like Cherish, AIM and Women's Aid, who have experience of the difficulties that people have encountered, difficulties in relation to the means test and to the nature of proceedings. Although the report of the legal aid body is important it is only one view and one perception of the problem. It would be very valuable to get an input from other individuals and bodies.

To reply briefly — lest Senator Robinson should have misunderstood me — I waited until the Legal Aid Board presented their report as I felt that would be the correct procedure. I have had meetings already with people from FLAC, with various professional bodies, with Cherish and with other organisations involved in the type of work which the Legal Aid Board are doing. Now that we have the collective comments I hope to be able to go ahead, carry out this review and look at the weaknesses of the scheme.

The Seanad adjourned at 4.45 p.m. until 12 noon on Wednesday, 16 December 1981.

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