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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jul 1982

Vol. 98 No. 12

Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1982: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

There are four general areas covered by this Bill. The first and most substantive area is the ESB's powers and duties in relation to financial matters, and, specifically, expenditure and borrowing for general or capital purposes. There is a limit on capital expenditure by the board under the legislation as it stands. This is extended, by amending Acts, from time to time. The present limit, which was set in the Act of 1981, is fixed at £1,400 million.

This limitation will be reached in the latter part of this year on the basis of expenditure on approved capital projects now in hands. An increase in the statutory limit is, therefore, necessary. However, I am proposing also in the Bill to change the nature of the limit from one based on expenditure to one based on borrowings.

There are a number of reasons for doing this. A large proportion of the board's capital expenditure must now be financed by borrowings. Currently, the proportion stands at about 80 per cent. A change to a borrowings limit will, therefore, more accurately reflect this commercial reality. In the same way as an increase in the expenditure limits came before the Oireachtas as a Bill, so will any change in borrowing limits, thus continuing the practice of a regular review of the ESB in both Houses. The change to a borrowing limit will also bring the ESB legislation into line with more recent legislation affecting other semi-State bodies such as the Gas Act, 1976 which covers Bord Gáis Éireann.

The limit which is specified in the Bill is £1,600 million, in aggregate, of borrowings which have not been repaid by the board. At present the level of the board's unrepaid borrowings stands at £840 million. After taking account of money, which can be allocated from internal resources, it is estimated that the amount of new borrowings required to meet the capital programme up to 1985 will be £735 million which will bring the total to just under £1,600 million.

The board's capital operations up to the early part of 1985 will be provided for in the limit set by the Bill. At that stage it will be necessary to review again the financial requirements of the board and, if necessary, to seek the approval of the Oireachtas for a further increase in the limitation on borrowings.

The statutory requirements relating to guarantee of ESB borrowings by the Minister for Finance are also being updated in the Bill. Again, the objective is to bring them into line with more modern practice. A limitation of £1,600 million is proposed to the total amount of such guarantees to coincide with the limitation on the board's total borrowings.

Even with the foregoing provisions on borrowing limits, I consider it is desirable to formalise the arrangements for ministerial control over the capital expenditure programmes of the board. It has been the administrative practice that the board submit for ministerial approval their proposals for the construction of new generating capacity and the estimated capital outlay thereon. In the annual budgetary context, the annual capital programme of the ESB is included in the capital budget. The capital expenditure programmes of the ESB are very substantial indeed and they impact on the economy both in specific and general ways. Therefore, I believe the principle of ministerial review of such programmes should be formally covered in the statutes governing the board's operations.

Senators may feel that the provision proposed in subsection (1) of section 2 of the Bill is too all-embracing. However, the provision as it stands has the merit of simplicity. Senators will be aware that the capital expenditure programmes of the board in relation to new generating plant cover a period of many years. In certain cases it may be necessary to give broad approval in principle tied to a provision for a review of the project in the light of changes in demand for electricity. A substantial element of flexibility would, therefore, be necessary in relation to the giving of ministerial approvals. It will also be necessary to look at the board's capital expenditure proposals on an annual basis, and in the context of general economic policy. Furthermore, there may be relatively short-term proposals for capital expenditure by the board which would need to be considered on an ad hoc basis. Senators will appreciate that if an attempt were made to draft legislation which would comprehend the variety of circumstances which I have mentioned the result would be unduly complex.

I have discussed the matter with the ESB and we are satisfied that arrangements can be settled between us and with the Minister for Finance which will enable the provision in the Bill to be operated satisfactorily without inhibiting in any significant way the day-to-day activities of the board in regard to capital projects and expenditures.

These are the principal elements in the financial provisions of the Bill. In addition a number of minor, technical financial amendments to existing legislation are also proposed. These will improve administrative efficiency, from the viewpoint of both the board and the Minister for Finance. For instance, the requirement on the board, under the Act of 1954, to create a "form of security" when borrowing is being removed. Delays in the negotiation of loan agreements have been caused by differences of legal opinion over the interpretation of this obligation on the board. It is proposed to remove the obligation on the board to create a form of security, although the option of doing so will remain open to the board if lenders insist on it.

The second area covered by the Bill relates to annual payments to be made by the board to the Minister for the Environment in lieu of rates on the board's generation and distribution plant. The board are exempt from the payment of rates on such plant under existing legislation. In their consideration last year of departmental Estimates for 1982, the previous Government decided that the ESB should pay £10 million this year as a contribution in lieu of rates. Accordingly, provision for the receipt of this sum was made in the Estimates for the Department of the Environment. This was to be regarded as a temporary arrangement for 1982, pending official valuation and rating of the board's exempted property.

The Government have, however, decided that in the special circumstances of the ESB there are arguments in favour of the concept of a payment, fixed by the Government, to be paid annually by the board in lieu of rates. This Bill provides accordingly.

The third area covered by the Bill relates to amendment of certain provisions in the Electricity Supply Board (Superannuation) Act, 1942. The objectives here are two fold — firstly to remove any doubts which might exist about the powers of the trustees of the board's superannuation committee to invest in real or personal property and, secondly, to provide for the removal of the existing requirement on the board to consult with the Minister for Finance before investing funds in securities already authorised by law. This brings the relevant ESB superannuation provisions into line with those applicable to other State bodies.

The final area dealt with in the Bill is the involvement of the board in fisheries activities. These activities stem directly from the generation of electricity from hydro-electric stations on rivers which are the habitat of migratory fish such as salmon and eels. Legislation in the past has given the board the authority and responsibility to acquire, manage and preserve fisheries affected by their hydro-electric schemes.

At first, the ESB carried out this responsibility by the construction of salmon hatcheries. At present the ESB produce over 80 per cent of artificially reared young salmon in the country. At the beginning of last year in response to a Government request the board agreed to increase their overall salmon smolt production with the aim of producing two million smolts annually. These fish will be released into salmon rivers in need of restocking on an annual basis and will contribute significantly to the salmon catch. To do this the ESB require the freedom provided in the legislation, and the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, encouraged by the success of the ESB to date in their fishery activities, supports the Bill.

The board operate two salmon hatcheries, one at Parteen on the River Shannon and the other at Carrigadrohid on the River Lee. These two hatcheries are being expanded and a further hatchery is being constructed on the River Erne. This development on the River Erne follows a recommendation of the Erne Catchment Study on Cross-Border Cooperation and is receiving financial support from the EEC.

It has been recognised for some years that farming of salmon in the sea would be of benefit nationally. Work to date has shown the need for a breeding programme, disease control and integration of fresh-water hatchery activity with the rearing of the caged fish in the sea. This important work is carried out in conjunction with the Department of Fisheries and Forestry, NBST and the universities.

In addition, the ESB intend to support the mariculture industry around the coast by making salmon smolts available to the industry in order to boost salmon production. Currently the ESB are supplying salmon smolts to Bradán Mara for their commercial salmon farming in Connemara and on an experimental basis to Comhar Cumann na nOileán in Lettermore and to a private fish farmer in Kilmacillogue, County Kerry.

The board propose to bring their own farmed salmon production initially to 100 tons per annum. This will be done as rapidly as possible giving direct employent to ten people with a revenue, principally in foreign currency, of over £300,000. The main outlets for this salmon are France and Britain. Other markets are being explored. The success of this operation will be followed by further expansion by the ESB in their own right and/or in conjunction with co-operatives and other salmon farming interests. Of course, these developments would be subject to the consent of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry.

The ESB are the prime eel exporter of the country assisting the State and other eel fishery owners in marketing their catches with their own. The board, in the last season themselves produced 41 tons of eels and exported almost 80 tons to Germany and Holland. The total value of these exports was £¼ million. There are eight full-time employees of the board involved in eel fishing. An intensive study on the use of warm water from power stations in eel culture is being carried out. The objective of this study is to develop a profitable eel farming enterprise by shortening the time taken to bring the eels to maturity.

The ESB have ownership of extensive areas of freshwater, including fishing rights. They are aware of the social benefits in making these available as amenities to the public in general and anglers in particular. They have, apart from providing other amenities, successfully carried out cage culture of brown trout in reservoirs for release for angling, greatly enhancing the quality of the fishing. Some 120,000 fish up to one lb. in weight were released in Pollaphuca in the last year. The board currently employ 50 fisheries staff and envisage employing 12 extra staff in the next year as a result of the development programme already outlined.

The legislation which I an now moving is intended to enable the ESB to carry on and expand their work in aquaculture. It also takes cognisance of the ESB's decision to expand, with Government support, their production of young salmon by threefold over the next few years. This will benefit national salmon stocks, the netting industry, salmon angling, and assist the emerging salmon farming industry.

The ESB occupy a position of very considerable importance among public sector institutions. Their operations and the service they provide affect the entire economy and every citizen. They are a major source of employment and their expenditure budgets are very substantial by any standards. For example, in 1982 the total expected capital expenditure by the board is estimated at over £230 million of which some £125 millions will be spent on generating plant and about £87 million on transmission and distribution networks.

It is, therefore, right and reasonable that this House, and I as responsible Minister, should be concerned with reviewing the overall activities and the trend of policies of the ESB, without inhibiting the board's freedom to pursue their day-to-day business. Before concluding, I should like to refer to two broad policy issues which are related and which I know are of as much concern to Senators as they are certainly to me. Firstly, the fuel mix of the ESB's generating capacity is of vital importance because it affects our balance of payments and the use of certain valuable indigenous resources. It also has a major effect in the second area to which I would like to refer, namely, the level of ESB charges to consumers.

A main element of strategy on ESB fuel use must be to diversify away from oil as a primary energy source. Apart from the volatility of oil costs, the risk of major disruption of international markets is always present. In this context the coming on stream of the new coal burning facility at Moneypoint will be a major diversification. The proportion of our installed generating capacity that depends on oil has been decreasing in recent years. This trend will be maintained. The oil generating capacity, which stood at 54 per cent a year ago, now stands at 51 per cent. By the end of the decade it will be about 35 per cent.

The other element of our fuel strategy is to maximise the proportion of native fuel used by the ESB. 1,362 megawatt capacity has been approved for commissioning between now and the end of the decade. Of this 88 megawatt will be fired by peat, including extensions to Shannonbridge and Lanesboro generating stations. A further 45 megawatt station will be constructed at Arigna using local low grade coal. Native natural gas is already being used by the ESB in some of their power stations and while the premium domestic market is building up for natural gas its use by the ESB is helping to stabilise electricity prices to the consumer. It is also creating savings on oil imports which assist the balance of payments.

Electricity tariffs have been in the news lately. Over the past two years or so these have increased quite substantially. These increases were granted on the basis of allowable cost increases incurred by the board, including fuels, salaries and other unavoidable increases in overheads. However, the level of increases has been disturbing, not only for domestic consumers but also, and especially, for industry. The most recent increase granted to the board has been limited to 5 per cent which is the most moderate for some years. I was also glad to announce that, while allowing this increase for general purposes, there would be a reduction in the night-time electricity tariffs which would be of benefit to industry. Furthermore, the fuel variation charge on ESB bills, which had become a source of confusion — and, indeed, some annoyance — to electricity consumers, has been removed.

I will be concentrating my efforts to ensure that this desirable moderation in electricity increases will be maintained in the immediate future at least. Recently the Government decided that the position on electricity prices generally should be fully reviewed. The proposals for this review are well advanced in my Department. The outcome of the review will, it is hoped, help to throw light on recent allegations that our electricity prices compare unfavourably with prices elsewhere.

Finally I should like to take this opportunity to state clearly that I have a high regard for the professional and technical competence of the ESB which has served the nation well over the years. I would emphasise, however, that I consider the broad policy objectives of the board and the means of achieving these as major areas of direct concern to me. I have a very satisfactory working relationship with the board and senior executives of the ESB and have every confidence that I will have their full co-operation in seeking to achieve the paramount objective of providing all consumers with a safe and continuous supply of electricity at the absolute minimum cost to them and to the economy.

I recommend this Bill to the House.

I should like to welcome the Bill and I do not propose to delay the House with my contribution. When the ESB is mentioned one automatically thinks of it as being one of the most successful State or semi-State organisations. In fact, it could be said the ESB is the most successful enterprise. When such organisations are being discussed in the House it is a pleasure to talk about one that has been as successful as the ESB. There are a number of areas where the ESB over the years have blazed a trail and proved that their proposals to diversify were well-founded. They have shown that the diversification has also been profitable, which is essential if, for instance, a firm is to diversify and as a result try to bolster its finances from another source. Then, obviously, there would be a grave danger that in regard to a company such as the ESB, which has interests abroad as well as at home, we could find ourselves supporting diversification abroad with cash from the home market. This is not happening with the ESB and I hope it will never happen. I mention that particularly because at some stage in the future there might be a danger, with fluctuations in the economy and in marketing generally, that home consumers would cast a very suspicious eye on diversification if they felt they were in some way subsidising that diversification. The bottom line must be that all aspects of the board's diversification must be seen to be profitable, particularly those abroad.

I would also refer briefly to something which the Minister has no control over, and that is that capital expenditure must be greatly financed from borrowing. Interest rates have a great effect on the cost to the board in this sense and we can only hope that interest rates will be sufficiently acceptable to allow the board to continue to make a profit and to give the consumer the kind of service that he has enjoyed over the years.

I understand that something has been done to try to resolve the one or two areas that have caused concern to domestic consumers, and I would suggest that the Minister might mention them to the board. In rural areas when connections are being made to individual consumers, punitive charges are being placed on them. This particularly affects young couples building houses for the first time, who have striven to provide the finance to build their homes. They are then lumbered with a charge of £2,000 or £3,000 to lay on electricity. This, coupled with the provision of other services, creates very severe and serious difficulties for them. I understand that moves are afoot to bring about some type of resolution of this. It is essential that there would be, because a great deal of hardship has been caused to young couples by that charge. I am aware that the ESB have to operate on the basis of profit and that it is also essential they be able to recoup the expenses incurred by them in laying on power to houses. At the same time, the charge should not be so punitive as to make it almost impossible for those concerned to meet the charge.

I should like to compliment the board for their encouragement to the fishing industry and the very important part they have played in assisting in particular salmon fisheries and in later years eel fishing. I mentioned on a number of occasions in the past that all enterprises, whether State or in the private sector, which at this time are flourishing and are in a position to expand and to take on more employees, should be given every encouragement. I was delighted to hear that the Minister seems to be proceeding to do that in another area. It is absolutely essential that those firms, of whom the ESB is one, who have been operating efficiently and satisfactorily and have been showing a profit and providing good service should, in these times of recession, be encouraged to expand, to take on more employees. At least we will be assured that when this is done we will not be throwing good money after bad. Our investment will be secure and the return from that investment will be enhanced, as in the past.

I should like to refer to replacement of generating plant. I am aware that it has not been the policy of the board to ensure that as much home produced plant as possible is used. I accept that a great deal of generating plant, for obvious reasons, has to be imported, but I should like an assurance that in the future, wherever possible, generating plant that is home produced will be used in any up-dating that the board undertake.

The use of fuel requires greater attention in the future. I should not like to see a relatively cheap fuel being used to produce power, for the Electricity Supply Board or any other State or semi-State company, to such an extent that efficiency would be decreased as a result. I am thinking in terms of natural gas and other resources. There is no danger of this at present but there could well be in the future. A lot depends on the efficiency of all the companies involved in the production of power.

The Minister, as far as I am aware, did not refer to the other sources of fuel that the board propose to use. He spoke of coal and peat burning but he did not refer to wood burning. That is one area that requires more attention than it has been getting. Many people are extremely worried at the amount of timber being exported which is suitable for use as a fuel in electricity generation.

I am extremely concerned by reports I have heard that some native wood is being exported at the ridiculously low price of £1 per tonne. Admittedly, a considerable amount of employment is given in the carriage of the product to the port and so on, but it would be counter-productive if we were to approve of a policy to export a very valuable fuel which at some later stage would be re-imported, processed, at a considerably higher cost. It would be ridiculous to allow this to happen and I would ask the Minister to pay particular attention to exports of wood which would be suitable for use as a raw material for electricity generation in wood burning generating plants. This aspect has worried me for some time and I have had a number of people in touch with me who are very concerned about the exports that are at present allegedly taking place.

In conclusion, I welcome the elimination of the fuel variation charge which has been in operation for the past couple of years. In many cases the fuel variation charge matched the charge for consumption of electricity within the two month period. It seems ridiculous to have a fuel variation charge when ink could have been spared by including this in the charge for units used. With the removal of the fuel variation charge also came a price increase. But we cannot expect semi-State bodies to operate efficiently and give a good service without giving them the opportunity of paying their way. The ESB have had a very good record. They have been seen to be a healthy company over a long number of years. They have shown by their diversification that they have picked the right areas and shown that they are profitable and have also given considerable assistance to fishing and various other sporting areas and helped in various other promotions. It is my great pleasure to welcome this Bill and I would now like the Minister to reply to the various issues that I raised.

I would like to welcome this Bill. I have a feeling that in some way I should make a small contribution. I have lived with the ESB from a very early date. My father was one of those who pioneered the ESB and, indeed, our house in those early days was very much an ESB house. The people who worked in the ESB at the start of the campaign stayed with us in Athlone and they travelled from Athlone to Longford, to Roscommon and to Borrisokane by bicycle. These were great men of the past who built the ESB and made them what they are today, a great organisation and a great employer and in many ways one of the finest organisations that we have in this country. I would like to congratulate them for the work they have done down the years for the people of Ireland. We are now living in a changing world. They have diversified in the past. They will continue to diversify in the future to meet the changing demands of the future. That is where the ESB have shown much of their competence down the years. As employers they are excellent giving excellent salaries and good conditions.

Generally the professionalism of the ESB is to be totally and absolutely praised in this House and anywhere else. That is not to say that from time to time we should not criticise them. Certainly we should do so because they have a monopoly situation and if they are doing wrong or if their charges are too high then it is right that they should come in for some level of criticism, and they do from time to time. I would like, as the previous speaker did, to welcome the fact that the Minister has removed the fuel variation clause. As he said himself, it was a cause of annoyance. I think perhaps he is being very nice there. It is certainly something that many people felt should not be there and I am glad it has been removed.

On the question of connection fees, I would like to appeal to the Minister that where there is an old person, a pensioner who has not yet got electricity — and there cannot be too many such people around — every consideration should be given to giving that person a reduced rate or perhaps making no charge. It is something the Minister should examine.

There is also the question of high rise flats that are totally dependent on the ESB. We have schemes here in Dublin, in Athlone and in other towns. As far as the Athlone scheme is concerned the ESB sought the business, they got the business and they informed us that it would cost no more than 15 shillings a week at that time. I accept that conditions have changed, that oil prices have gone out of all proportion to what was expected and that is the reason for the increases. I would hope that in an area like this a special rate would apply and that great consideration will be given to those people who are now paying colossal rates. Monthly or two monthly bills of well over £100 are usual. Certainly we should not allow that situation to continue if we can stop it.

Overall I welcome the Bill. The Minister said that the objective is to provide consumers with a safe and continuous supply of electricity at the absolute minimum cost to them and to the economy. This is a clear and real objective that has to be pursued, it is admirable and it is something that we should all work towards. I welcome the Bill.

I would like to make a few points on the question of the fuel variation charge. Like my colleague, Senator Durkan, I do not agree that the charge should be removed from the bill. It has been readily admitted that the charge has been added to the bill. There is going to be no difference in the bill. There could be extra increases that nobody would know about. But perhaps I should say why I think it should be left as a fuel variation charge. The reason is that the ESB are using a fair amount of natural gas now. I understand that they use 125 million cubic feet per day, or they were to use that in the Cork plant. It is now nearer to 200 million cubic feet per day. The gas line is on its way to Dublin and I understand that the Ringsend station will use gas as well.

As we all know, gas is going to the ESB at a very low charge. Nobody has denied that. More and more of our natural gas will be used by the ESB yet people will not know what their variation charges are. For example, if £60 million is saved by the company in the buying of oil, how can we indicate to people that the ESB are now charging the right price? I feel that we are giving them the go-ahead to do what they want to do. The Minister has rightly said that people throughout the country are annoyed. People are seriously concerned at the way the ESB are treating them. ESB increases have been higher than the consumer index rate. We will allow for that because of oil prices. But, at the same time, in comparison with everything else, ESB charges have been much higher. Yet nobody can honestly and sincerely explain why. The only thing they said they would do is take away the fuel variation charge. But this has been added to the bill. The bill will not be less at the end of two months. It can be increased now and nobody will know the reason for it. I will give an example. The Post Office have now come out with a good bill which specifies the details exactly. I see no reason why this type of bill could not be issued by the ESB. The Minister must agree that the removal of the fuel variation charge is not the answer. It is still in the bill. Nobody has said that the Bill is going to be less. In fact it could be more and we will not know why. In 12 months time the ESB will be using more gas because it is now on the way to Dublin. Will the bills be less because of that, and if so, how is this to be indicated on the bill? Are they going to come to the National Prices Commission every month and say they used so much this month so they will charge less? It is a very serious matter.

I do not know why the fuel variation charges are being removed while the amounts are still being included in bills. The ESB are to be given more gas but it might to better used elsewhere.

The ESB are now prepared to give night consumption at a lower rate. The vast majority of our factories are closing earlier every night now because there is no work available for them.

Since gas has been provided to the ESB in Cork, I understand that something in the region of 60 per cent of the heat thus generated has been wasted. Why was some project not set up by the ESB so that the heat from that gas could be used elsewhere to heat something else? Perhaps heating could be provided at a lesser charge for people living in flats. That is a lot of wastage. Is the same thing to happen in Ringsend? I hope the ESB are planning now that the heat which is being wasted can be used elsewhere. These wastages should not happen.

I get afraid at times that our semi-State bodies are inclined to do these kinds of things without any concern at all for anybody within the State. Yet it is the people's money. I feel that the semi-State bodies at times are not responsible to the people. A perfect example of that is the annoyance caused to the public by the so-called "removal" of fuel variation charges. The charges will still be included in the ESB bills but the public will not be told about it. That is a very serious thing.

On a point of clarification relating to something said by Senator Cregan, I was not suggesting that the fuel variation charge should not be removed. In fact, I agree with its removal entirely. The point I was making was that although it was removed, which is a good thing, the unfortunate part of it was that there was a subsequent price increase which will erode the benefit.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator may not make a second speech. The Minister to conclude the debate.

I thank the Senators who contributed to this debate. I share the concern of both Senator Cregan and Senator Durkan and I can understand the case being made by Senator Cregan, but I think we have to appreciate what the reality of the situation is. We would all welcome the removal of the fuel variation charge which in effect means that the ESB cannot now seek sanction for price increases from the National Prices Commission every quarter as they have been doing. It is now a once-off application in the year. While we would all like to think that there would be no price increase in any particular year, we all fully realise that that is not possible, not realistic. We must put in context the price increase of 5 per cent this year as against the consumer price index and the inflation rate. The ESB have their share of increases in cost inputs.

Taking all aspects into consideration, including the input of natural gas into the ESB system, a price increase of only 5 per cent this year is reasonable and that increase has not been imposed on night tariff users. The reduction to industrial users who are on the night tariff is an effective 16 per cent which, when one looks at the comparisons of energy cost that have been made in recent times with competitors in the EEC, does give a measure of relief, and hopefully that measure of relief can be sustained and improved over the period.

It is precisely for some of the reasons raised here that the Government have instigated a review of the total pricing policy and of the reasons why certain aspects of the ESB costings appear or are alleged to be out of line with others. Nevertheless one has to compare like with like. There is no point in comparing our energy costs with those in a specific region in France where all their energy is supplied by hydro-electric power stations or looking at a region in Germany where all their electricity is supplied by nuclear stations. We have to compare like with like. It is precisely to get the matter into proper perspective that this review will be carried out and I hope it will be informative.

A question was raised by Senator Cregan in regard to the use of natural gas by the ESB. That should also be taken in the proper perspective. If the ESB were not a customer for natural gas then the building of a gas pipeline from Cork to Dublin would not have been a viable proposition. We can produce various arguments as to whether the most effective use is being made of it, but when we get down to the finer points, the difference is not great.

The pipeline project from Cork to Dublin can make an impact on the balance of payments and on the total economic development of the country and I believe the right decision is to use it to the maximum national economic benefit.

There were other points made in the debate in relation to the cost of connecting new consumers to the electricity supply. The present position is that the ESB now pay 50 per cent of the connection charge. The other 50 per cent can be paid on a deferred payment basis over a period of up to five years. For people in the 12 western counties who can take advantage of the FEOGA scheme, the only contribution would be 20 per cent, the balance of 80 per cent being made up between the EEC and the Government.

I note the compliments that have been paid to the ESB and I want to voice my appreciation of the people who pioneered this great national project, worked on it in the thirties and brought it to the present level of success. The diversification in which the ESB have engaged right through the 1970s and up to today has been very successful. As Senator Durkan rightly commented, it is companies like this, whether in the private or semi-State areas, that should be encouraged in these difficult times to diversify. The ESB are successfully doing so. They have engaged in consultancy work, both in the Third World and elsewhere. Last year they had 40 full-time engineers employed in projects that they have developed in countries like Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and Bahrain. At the same time they are providing training facilities here for technicians. They are good earners of foreign currency and have shown profits on these projects. The expansion and diversification that have taken place is to be commended and perhaps expanded in the future.

In relation to wood burning, this is an area in which the ESB have engaged and they have sown something in the region of 125,000 acres in Offaly and other midland counties. They are burning a certain amount of wood mixed with anthracite in various places. Senator Durkan was probably referring to thinnings from the forests. If more of the wood-anthracite mixture can be used it certainly will be done because as the Irish forests develop through the eighties there will be much more of it coming on stream. We must also bear in mind that there is a new plant being built in Clonmel which is already stock-piling the waste from the forest and they will be ready to go into production in about 18 months' time.

Senator Cregan raised the question of the wastage of heat. I helped to pioneer a project in Lanesboro some years ago related to hot water pouring out of the ESB station into the Shannon. While it did help the local anglers to some extent, nevertheless better use could have been made of it, and several acres of glass-houses have been built beside the ESB station. Young entrepreneurs have become involved in market gardening. The energy cost for the production of vegetables and potted plants has been halved. That is an area the ESB should look at in the light of the development at the Lanesboro power station and see where it can be developed further. I agree totally with the sentiments expressed by him that energy must be conserved and better use made of it. In fairness to the ESB they have conducted many pilot schemes in relation to the consumption of energy. They are in control of a pilot scheme which has been sponsored by the EEC and delivery vans around the city of Dublin are being run on batteries instead of either petrol or diesel over a three-year period. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the ESB and a few other semi-State bodies are involved in piloting many areas of conservation and in the development of biomass. I am sure every Member of the House would like to see them continue to do so.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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