Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 1984

Vol. 103 No. 2

National Social Service Board Bill, 1983: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

In page 4, between lines 37 and 38, to insert the following new paragraph:—

"(g) to foster, assist and aid projects of community involvement and activity, and to facilitate the mobilisation of self-help particularly in communities in which there is a high degree of poverty and social deprivation.".

—(Senator Fallon.)

Mr. Lanigan

Before we develop the point raised by Senator Fallon, there is a point I should like to raise, a Chathaoirligh. Having disagreed with your ruling, I hope I will not have any further disagreements with you this afternoon. This seems to me the only place I can raise this matter. I do not see in this section any co-ordination of the educational aspects of the social services. There are many aspects which come within the ambit of social services but we have not got the proper means of training the people involved. In our universities we have a social science degree. Once people get their degree they are foisted on the public as being experts in a particular area. I have come across cases of marital breakdown where young people were giving advice to married couples on what they should do, whether they should break up, or whether they should stay together, and giving advice which in some cases resulted in the actual breaking up of the marriage.

In Kilkenny we have a very good and well-established voluntary social service centre. We get people to follow up their training in social science but, unfortunately, there is no co-ordination in the educational process. The best social service workers are people who have been working on a voluntary basis in the deprived areas of our cities, towns and in the countryside. After many years of looking at the problems and seeing how they were resolved they know what is needed. Will the board co-ordinate whatever training is available for social service workers, and how does the Minister foresee the social service board improving the type of advice given at present by social service workers?

Minister for Health (Mr. B. Desmond)

Sections have been quite deliberately framed in the broadest possible context to enable that kind of training to be given. We have inserted the words "to promote, develop, encourage and assist, whether by means of the provision of financial or material aid, personnel or services or otherwise, the development of services and schemes in local communities for the dissemination of information and advice in relation to social services...the establishment and development of voluntary social services for those communities... co-operation in relation to social services between boards...work in relation to social services..."

By and large the prospect of direct training schemes being organised and serviced by the National Social Service Board would be encompassed in that particular function. I certainly take careful note of what Senator Lanigan has said, and I hope the National Social Service Board, together with the academic authorities, who provide the formal professional qualifications in the area, will co-ordinate their activities and deliver the kind of services envisaged by the Senator.

Mr. Lanigan

I am glad the Minister has said that. When you qualify theoretically as an engineer, it does not make any difference if a bridge falls down unless somebody is killed, but if you are dealing with people, as social workers are, it is totally important that not only is their theoretical training up to standard but that they are not foisted on the public as trained social workers whereas, in actual fact, they have just been trained in the theory of social work.

Mr. O'Leary

Hear, hear.

Mr. Lanigan

We have seen academics operating in the area of social work and they are more at home in Academe than they are in the homes of the poor. Unfortunately when they pontificate to people who are in trouble, the impression given by them is that they are there for their own good, that they get personal satisfaction out of helping the underprivileged. It should be the other way around. They should be giving to the people what is necessary for them to solve their problems.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the amendment withdrawn?

Mr. Fallon

No.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 17; Níl, 29.

Tá

• Cassidy, Donie.
• de Brún, Séamus.
• Ellis, John.
• Fallon, Seán.
• Fitzsimons, Jack.
• Hillery, Brian.
• Honan, Tras.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kiely, Rory.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Lanigan, Mick.
• Lynch, Michael.
• Mullooly, Brian.
• O'Toole, Martin J.
• Ross, Shane P.N.
• Ryan, William.
• Smith, Michael.

Níl

• Belton, Luke.
• Browne, John.
• Bulbulia, Katharine.
• Burke, Ulick.
• Connor, John.
• Conway, Timmy.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durcan, Patrick.
• Ferris, Michael.
• FitzGerald, Alexis J. G.
• Fleming, Brian.
• Harte, John.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hourigan, Richard V.
• Howard, Michael.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kelleher, Peter.
• Lennon, Joseph.
• Loughrey, Joachim.
• McDonald, Charlie.
• McMahon, Larry.
• Magner, Pat.
• O'Brien, Andy.
• O'Leary, Seán
• O'Mahony, Flor.
• Quealy, Michael A.
• Robb, John D.A.
• Robinson, Mary, T.W.

Tellers: Tá; Senators de Brún and W. Ryan; Níl; Senators Harte and Belton.

Amendment declared lost.

Section 4 agreed to.

Section 5 agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Fallon

Can the Minister give any indication at this stage of the composition of the new board?

Mr. B. Desmond

As I have indicated, the board will consist of between eight and ten members including a chairman and a vice-chairman. I have not given any consideration to who the members of the board will be. The board will be appointed by the Government. I will recommend the members to the Government.

Mr. Fallon

And will the board have a country-wide base?

Mr. B. Desmond

Certainly, I would hope that it would be a broadly based nationally-based board, and that I will reach agreement with my colleagues in Government as to who should be on it.

Mr. O'Leary

When the Bill states that the Minister will appoint; does that mean at the Minister's own and absolute discretion or in consultation with his colleagues?

Mr. B. Desmond

No, the current process is that I will bring between eight and ten names only to the Government, as a matter of Government procedure. But the members will be appointed by me subject to the approval of the Government on an informed basis.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 7 to 22, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 23.

Question proposed: "That section 23 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Fallon

I want to make a small point on section 23. Senator McGuinness made the point regarding this section and the Minister replied to it. Senator McGuinness is an example of where an Oireachtas member could usefully be and has proved to be valuable in the past. I am not certain that we should stick rigidly with this provision in this Bill or for future Bills. If there is a good person in the Oireachtas, a Member with an interest at heart and if he or she is suitable for a board, I feel that that person should be entitled to go on it. The Government should waive that particular section in the various Bills. As Senator McGuinness said, it is becoming part and parcel of every Bill that comes before the two Houses. I hold the view that if there is a Member well and truly qualified and with the interest of the particular project at heart, recognition should be given to that person and this particular section might be waived.

Mr. O'Leary

I would like to support what Senator Fallon has said. We cannot complain too strongly against the Minister himself on this. This is a general policy decision which successive Governments have pursued and is one which I think should be re-examined. You have to strike a balance between the necessity and the wisdom of not permitting the quangos which arise out of legislation to become the plaything of party politicians on the one hand — and there is a great danger that this might happen — and on the other hand, the very desirable encouragement which will be given to people to become Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas without changing too much their contacts and lifestyle and their contribution to the community.

Membership of Seanad Éireann should be developed in as non-political or apolitical a fashion as is possible under the system. I ask the Minister to consider for the future in the case of any similar Bills which may go through his Department whether Members of Seanad Éireann, recognising that they are, or should be, less politically motivated than Members of the Dáil might not as a first step be excluded from disqualification of this type. Increasingly in public life we have the situation where even expressing a desire to be a Member of Seanad Éireann is disqualifying people from a large range of activities. This situation is not good and it is not healthy: it would be a factor influencing whether a particularly worth while person would decide to be a candidate or not. Similarly, in private institutions, directors of private institutions are being increasingly subjected to the same restrictions. For example, as I understand it, a director of any one of the major banks in Ireland will be expected to cease to be a director in the event of standing for political office — standing for political office, not actually succeeding. This is only an extension of what we are doing here.

Is it a good thing that the direction of these bodies which we set up should be totally removed from the political process? You have on the one hand the problem of the domination of these bodies by political activists, but on the other hand you have the equally serious danger of these bodies being controlled by rather directionless people who are not in touch with the realities of the administration of Government or not in touch with the realities of representative politics. There appears to be a general view on both sides of the Seanad that this matter should be re-examined. I ask the Minister to give the matter very serious consideration for any future legislation which may go through his Department.

Mr. Ferris

In echoing those sentiments may I say that this House has at all stages of legislation on the formation of boards, expressed reservations about this section. I know that it would not be the Minister's wish to have this kind of bar on people running for public office because we know from our own experience, particularly in my party, where a member who was working in a post office and allowed himself to be nominated for an election, lost his job forthwith. He was not elected to the Dáil at that time; it was a by-election, but by going forward as a public representative for his party he lost his job. I think it is discrimination that people are not allowed even to be nominated for the European Parliament or for either House of the Oireachtas. We have consistently said that in this House. I am saying to the Minister that we feel that this is almost automatic parliamentary draftsman's language that appears in all Bills. We are asking again on this occasion that the views of this House be taken into consideration by parliamentary draftsmen. It can be communicated to them by the Minister that we have the gravest reservations about this provision particularly in the area of nominating people: if they want to be nominated it should not debar them from membership of a board or they should not lose membership of a board.

Having said that, I think there is a special degree of sense in Senator O'Leary's contribution about Members of the Seanad. Quite a lot of people who have spoken on this section, including Senator McGuinness, are elected here vocationally and they have an expertise and could contribute much to running a board of this nature without any political influences that people like me might be subjected to, or somebody on the other side of the House. There are people here who have an expertise that we admire. They are elected here through a different kind of process, and it is not the political process. We should certainly look at that particular area. Legislators here are unhappy that in all these pieces of legislation we are, it seems, automatically treated as second class citizens, that we have not a useful contribution to make since by allowing your name to go forward for nomination you automatically lose a seat on a board like this. I am asking the Minister to communicate those views to the people who prepare the legislation for us.

Mrs. McGuinness

I hesitate in a way to add to this again, having said my say on the Second Stage, but first I would like to thank the people who have said such kind things about me personally and reiterate that this is not a personal plea on my own behalf. I do feel in relation to what Senators O'Leary and Ferris have said about Seanad Éireann that it is a particular case in which the Members of this House generally are elected on a vocational basis or elected because they have particular expertise in a certain field. It does seem to be a waste of their abilities then to turn around and say well, if we are setting up a Government board that deals with that particular field we must exclude the Members of Seanad Éireann because they are Members of the Oireachtas.

Secondly, it is just a way of dealing with politicians as a whole. We have enough people in this country and indeed in other countries describing politicians pejoratively as a general brood of people that are not particularly admirable. If we go in this way saying that politicians or anybody who aspires to be a politician should not be allowed to be a member of any kind of State board or whatever, I think we fuel this fire. We tend to make it easier for people to say "Ah well, they want to keep those horrible politicians out of it at any rate". I do not think that is necessarily a very good idea. Therefore, I would like the Minister to have another think about this.

Mr. B. Desmond

I will certainly consider in relation to future legislation and in relation to my work in the health area, the particular point made by Senators in relation to Seanad Éireann itself. I might indicate that in relation to the setting up of the National Health Council, a body which was languished since 1978-79 — earlier in fact — the body has not been re-established at all although I am required to consult with the body under the Health Act before enacting any legislation including this legislation; the body has not been in existence. In that regard, I did go to the Government and I did suggest that three Members of the Oireachtas should serve on that body, and the Government accepted that argument and the three Members of the Oireachtas concerned have now been asked and all three have accepted membership of the National Health Council for the next three years. The composition will be announced in the near future. To that extent, there is a development in that direction. I would have difficulty in accepting it as a matter of general provision. Admittedly, there are those rather rare, unique unaffiliated souls in Seanad Éireann who possess personal, unique objectivity but that, I fear, would not apply to the generality of Senators. Some Senators have a propensity to collect offices of various bodies like fellows I knew when I was going to school who were collecting minor hurling championship medals, "lashings" of trophies for membership of this, that and the other, so many memberships and so many bodies that one wonders when one looks at some of the curriculae vitae how they managed to get through a day at all without going around with agendas stuffed into their pockets for different meetings at every hour of the day.

It is essential that Members of the Oireachtas, including Seanad Éireann, in particular Seanad Éireann, if I may digress for a minute, should be so deeply immersed in the legislative process and in a great deal of work within the context of their membership of the Houses of the Oireachtas that they should not have any other time available to spend in servicing, administering and being involved in other bodies. They could perhaps be involved in the National Social Service Board which would be a very busy board, perhaps meeting at a minimum every three or four weeks and doing a lot of subcommittee work and so on. To that extent I would have some reservations, but I will certainly bear in mind what Senators have said in relation to this House of the Oireachtas. I might add that that standard provision, if it is any consolation to the Seanad, was put in a standard form; it was not discussed at Government because it has become an established part of so much legislation now that perhaps it is time that we had more flexibility. At least there is the consolation that in respect of the National Health Council I have not excluded Members of the Oireachtas. I think in relation to other boards, like the National Planning Board and so on, Members of the Oireachtas have not per se been excluded although in fact they were, but not in terms of the terms of reference.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 24 to 28, inclusive agreed to.

SECTION 29.

Question proposed: "That section 29 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. O'Leary

There is just one matter here. In the copy of the Bill with which Members have been circulated, it is described as the National Social Service Board Bill, 1983. I would like to ask the Minister if that has been amended in the Dáil or is amendment here necessary?

Mr. B. Desmond

I will just clarify the matter. I was personally using the Bill as initiated. As passed by Dáil Éireann it has been amended to "1984", so it is coming to the Seanad as "1984".

Mr. O'Leary

Was that printed again?

Mr. B. Desmond

The National Social Service Board Bill, 1984, is the one currently before the Seanad.

Mr. O'Leary

Thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

Mr. B. Desmond

May I thank the Seanad and yourself, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for the co-operation I received in having this Bill enacted so expeditiously this afternoon?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I wonder if the Acting Leader of the House would indicate to me if the Order of Business stands as agreed?

Mr. Ferris

As agreed. We adjourn for tea from 6 p.m. until 7 p.m. and then we will complete the motion on neutrality from 7 p.m. until 8.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.