Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Feb 1984

Vol. 103 No. 3

Joint Committee on Building Land: Motion.

Mr. Ferris

I move:

That the orders of reference of the Joint Committee on Building Land constituted pursuant to the Order of Dáil Éireann of 3rd March, 1983 and the Order of Seanad Éireann of 9th March, 1983, be amended as follows:—

The insertion in paragraph (2) after ‘records' of the following:—

‘and, subject to the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, the Joint Committee shall have power to engage the services of persons with specialist or technical knowledge to assist it'.

For the information of the House, we made that decision on 1 February following consideration of written submissions and many discussions that we had with various interested bodies. The committee were greatly influenced in their decision to seek this extension to Standing Orders by the complexity of the written submissions received from many professional and technical bodies having an interest in building land.

For the record of the House, the committee have received 63 separate submissions. The members of the committee do not consider that they possess the expertise necessary to sift and evaluate correctly the massive amount of technical material before them, given that the committee wish to produce a detailed and properly thought-out report.

In the interests of bringing a proper level of skill and expertise to the consideration of the policy options open to them, the committee decided that outside assistance of a technical and specialised nature would be required. In making this decision to request specialist assistance the committee were aware of the commitment given by the former Minister, Deputy Raphael Burke, in July 1982 — and endorsed by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment — that the services of all Departments would be available to the committee. The committee wish to acknowledge the generous assistance and co-operation they have received at all times from the Department of the Environment. Nevertheless, the committee are concerned to maintain their independence of thought and action in the matter and have concluded that it would serve the best interests of the orders of reference if they were capable of drawing, when necessary, on a wide range of specialist, technical and professional expertise.

Therefore, at a meeting of the committee on 8 February, they decided they should seek the services, on a part-time basis, of An Foras Forbartha, a specialist public agency with expertise in the area of building land, to assist the committee in the examination and evaluation of the documentation submitted to them and to assist in the completion of their final report. An Foras Forbartha have indicated informally to the committee that they would be pleased and willing to assist them in this matter.

The question of cost has not yet been examined in detail but there is provision already, in the Vote for the Houses of the Oireachtas, under the subhead for Expenditure on Consultancy Services for Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is on that basis that the committee are seeking the permission of this House for the addition to their terms of reference.

Mr. Fallon

I second the motion proposed by Senator Ferris. As a member of that committee it has become painfully obvious to me that we require the services of specialist or technical personnel. Looking back, one could argue that perhaps we should have done it at the beginning. But we did not and now it is required. It is right and proper that we agree to the motion proposed by Senator Ferris.

Mrs. Robinson

It is obvious that the committee should be afforded the expertise that they have requested in amending their terms of reference to include the possibility of looking for this specialist help. Apart from the kind of expertise to which Senator Ferris has referred — the assistance of An Foras Forbartha — it is clear that this important committee, on the control of building land, will also have to tackle very difficult and indeed fundamental constitutional and legal problems. I was concerned some time ago to read a report in the media of an attempt by the committee to obtain the full opinion which the Attorney General had submitted to the Government on this issue. It appears that the opinion, in full, was not available to the committee. I wondered whether, in looking for the additional expertise, the committee had considered the possibility of obtaining further legal expertise for the committee. I say that because, apart from the opinion of the Attorney General on an issue such as this — which would obviously carry very real weight — it is such a difficult and complex issue, one which is not just a straightforward legal issue, it has also social implications and it is an area where legal opinions can differ, where there can be different views as to what the constitutional position would be. I would have thought that just as the committee, quite properly, require expert assistance in the technical areas to examine, understand and develop their thinking in the light of the submissions made to them, they should also have the capacity to look for the necessary legal expertise and to seek, if necessary, for the committee itself, its own opinion from senior counsel on the constitutional legal issues which arise. I should like to know, first of all, whether that has been considered and if that is intended to be furthered by this motion.

The other question I wished to ask is whether there is any danger that the need for this expertise will delay the report of the committee. The time for submitting the report has been extended — we extended it quite recently. Because of the gravity and importance of the subject matter, and the urgent necessity to control building land, it is vital that the committee act now within the time which has been further granted to them and that there be no further delay. I should like clarification of that point.

Mr. Ferris

I will take Senator Robinson's last point first. Particularly because of the time constraint on this committee they saw the necessity for having their terms of reference extended so that they could make the fullest use of the expertise that would be necessary to try to comply with the derogation of time that this House gave them to submit their report. It is for that very reason that we are looking for this technical assistance from An Foras Forbartha. The actual wording used in extending their terms of reference does not, in fact, rule out the committee — if they decide by consensus that they need any other specialist or professional expertise — from availing of such even if it is of a legal nature.

I did say in my earlier remarks that we acknowledged already the generous assistance and co-operation we have received from the Department of the Environment. I want to put it on record that they have made legal opinion available to the committee. If the committee feel that they require any other legal opinion, naturally that would be a matter for them. This extension of their terms of reference would not rule out legal expertise as well as technical expertise. As a committee we have requested certain opinions from the Attorney General. We recognise that his brief is to advise the Government and not sub-committees or Joint Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas. We feel that these revised terms of reference will give us the permission of this House to seek such legal opinions if so required.

Question put and agreed to.