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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1984

Vol. 104 No. 6

Postal and Telecommunications Services (Amendment) Bill, 1984: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

This is a very short technical Bill which has two purposes. The main purpose is to amend section 56 and 57 of the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983, so as to give the full effect of the original intentions of the sections to transfer certain legal liabilities from the Minister, the Minister for Finance and the State to the newly established statutory companies. That amendment is required to have effect from 1 January 1984.

Sections 56 and 57 of the 1983 Act were intended to transfer to An Post and Bord Telecom Éireann, as appropriate, all liabilities attaching to the national postal and telecommunications services in respect of claims and court proceedings arising from events that occurred before 1 January 1984 but which had not been settled before that date. As Senators will be aware, the two companies took over the operation of those services on 1 January 1984. Similarly, the benefits of claims being made or actions being taken on behalf of the services and which had not been settled by 1 January 1984 were intended to pass to the companies. The purpose was to provide for continuity of these claims and proceedings, and as from that date all the necessary staff and records were transferred to the companies to deal with those cases as well as with all cases arising after 1 January 1984 from their own operation of the services. That was accepted by the interim boards, An Bord Poist and An Bord Telecom. It is a perfectly routine and logical section in the Bill.

However, I am advised that as worded, sections 56 and 57 transferred liability to the bodies only in cases in which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was a party. The effect of this was that, contrary to the intention of the legislation, the sections did not transfer liability in cases which arose before 1 January 1984, in which the State itself, or the Minister for Finance, was a party. Two principal classes of claims are involved. The main example of the first is where negligence had been attributed to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in relation to road works arising from cabling operations. The second class relates mainly to cases in which negligence arising out of the driving of departmentally-owned motor vehicles had been attributed to employees of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Sections 2 and 3 correct the defect in the 1983 Act by transferring liability — and benefit, where it arises — in all such cases to the appropriate company with effect from 1 January 1984. Section 2 also makes provision for the cost of any settlements made in such cases since 1 January 1984 to be borne by the appropriate company. Cases are in progress in regard to that period.

It is estimated that some £1.3 million could be involved in these cases, of which about £1 million would be in respect of the telecommunications service, the balance affecting the postal service. In the nature of things, many claims are not made or cases do not come to attention until quite some time after the event and this obviously makes it very difficult to forecast the costs involved. The general estimate is that it is of the nature of £1.3 million.

Because of the defect in sections 56 and 57, the Chief State Solicitor and his staff have had to deal with cases since 1 January 1984 in which the State, or the Minister for Finance, was a party. They will continue to do so until this Bill is enacted. It is, therefore, necessary to recover the expense involved in those cases from An Post and Bord Telecom Éireann, as appropriate, and section 4 of the Bill provides accordingly. Again, straightforward compensation for the Chief State Solicitor and his staff for work on these cases since 1 January 1984.

Section 4 also provides for the Minister for Finance meeting certain claims covered by this Act in the highly unlikely event of either company failing to pay up on foot of a judgment against it. That is a routine precaution.

The second purpose of the Bill is simply to empower the Minister for Communications, as successor to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, to repair any errors and omissions in the list of staff designated by him in December 1983 under section 45 (1) of the same Act, for employment by An Post or Bord Telecom Éireann as from 1 January 1984. Section 5 deals with that and amends section 45 (1) to enable the Minister to make any necessary corrections. In an exercise involving some 30,000 staff, spread over very many locations around the State, it was perhaps inevitable that errors and omissions would arise. Thus, section 5 is simply a technical provision. In other words, under the existing legislation it was found that we could not amend the list. In many cases there were just typing errors of one sort or another involved. In smaller post offices people were not certain whether they were employed by An Post or Bord Telecom Éireann. I can assure the House — this assurance I want to give very strongly because it is something that was involved very much as this was going through the Dáil — that all the safeguards and guarantees provided for the transfer of staff in the 1983 Act are not interfered with in the slightest. They are all existing. I understand that the boards have been in contact with the trade unions with this explanation. The point was raised in the Lower House but no difficulties arise in that respect. I can assure the House absolutely on that. It is merely enabling corrections to be made in a list of staff, involving about 30,000.

As will be clear from what I have said, the Bill is a technical one which is required to make to the 1983 Act certain modifications which have been found to be necessary. Naturally there is a certain amount of urgency about the Bill to get the whole thing on a proper basis and I am most desirable to have it enacted at an early date. I commend the Bill to the Seanad.

Had the Act been properly prepared at the start this legislation would not be before us today. However, it is a short, technical amending Bill and our party are 100 per cent behind it. I was glad to hear the Minister reiterate that all the safeguards that were discussed at some length in 1983 in both Houses will not be tampered with in any way. The Bill gives the House an opportunity to have another look at the posts and telecommunications services since the legislation was enacted in 1983. Fianna Fáil take great pride in the fact that they initiated the Postal and Telecommunications Services Bill in 1982, which was the first step in setting up these two bodies. I must, however, point out the great need for improvements in the services. With regard to Telecom Éireann, I should like to know what progress has been made in reducing the long waiting period between the submission of application forms for services and the actual installation of apparatus and commencement of services.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not like to interrupt the Senator but we have to remember the Minister's appeal a few moments ago. He referred to the other House as the Lower House and we should bear in mind that we are in the Upper House. We will deal with this legislation before us only.

I should like to remind the Leas-Chathaoirleach that I am the only speaker representing my party and that my contribution will not be for any more than four minutes. Surely we are entitled to that amount of time on this side of the House?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am amazed at your attitude Senator Cassidy.

I apologise. We are 100 per cent behind the Bill. I was putting a few simple queries to the Minister about matters that came to my notice particularly on my recent election trail. I am referring to the postal service and the telephone billing services. It is a disgrace that if people who lodge a complaint do not accept the reply from the relevant authority they are disconnected. I am not talking about private houses.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That does not have anything at all to do with the legislation. As Leas-Chathaoirleach I have to rule that the Senator should confine his remarks to the legislation before us.

If the Leas-Chathaoirleach is not going to allow me to speak on those few points I welcome the Bill and recommend it as the Minister has done.

I will be exemplary in my performance. I would love to go along the trail that Senator Cassidy followed but this Bill does not allow for that. There will be another day when we will have the opportunity.

I am agreeing with the technicalities that are involved. It shows that in spite of all the effort we put into considering the original legislation we still miss little words which are so important. I am pleased that the Minister of State has given assurances in connection with section 5 which deals with staff. Senator Cassidy claimed responsibility and credit for initiating the Bill but I should like to say that my party claim all the credit for ensuring that the Bill was properly amended so that the staff in An Post and Bord Telecom Éireann are looked after properly. I accept the Minister's assurance that this technical amendment does not in any way interfere with the safeguards and guarantees we rightly put into the legislation. I am more than pleased we did that and I am glad we had the co-operation of the Opposition in doing so. It is very important when people who are involved in the public sector suddenly have their terms of employment changed and find themselves in semi-State organisation that every benefit they enjoyed continues after they are transferred. Otherwise we would have had an industrial revolution. I am glad that there has been consultation with the trade union movement on this, and, because of that, I have no reservations about commending the Bill to the House. I know the House will give the Minister all Stages of the Bill today.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an leasú seo, ní amháin roimh an leasú féin ach roimh an dréacht nua seo a thug an tAire isteach chugainn nuair a bhí fadhbanna ins an mBille. Cé go bhfuil sé anóg ar fad, tá áthas orm nár fhan sé amuigh go dtí go raibh gach éinne ar fud na tíre ag gearán go raibh fadhbanna ann agus gan aon rud á dhéanamh futhu.

Since it looks as if the Bill has been brought in by two parties already, I should like to put it on the record of the House that it seems to have been a political Bill that was taken up by two or three different Governments in a short space of time and handled very well by a Fine Gael Minister in the Government. We should be very broadminded and give credit to everybody. I should like to compliment the Minister on coming in with the amendments when they were needed and not waiting until everybody had problems. I welcome the Bill.

I am very conscious of the recent ruling of the Chair and I can assure the Chair that I will abide by it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Abide by it Senator.

I want to strike an unusual note. There is a total welcome for this measure which the Minister said will give effect to the original intentions of the sections of the earlier Act. I am concerned at this stage because of a particular problem that has come to my intention and I believe that the Minister should pause at this stage to be absolutely sure of what will develop or may take place once this transaction is fully in order according to law. We must ensure it will not inflict injustice on anyone.

Perhaps the Minister should pause at this point and consider the possibility that as a result of the completion of this an injustice will not be inflicted on an individual or individuals. Perhaps when the Minister is replying he will satisfy me that such a risk does not exist. With the permission of the Chair I will give one example that will cover the ground I am concerned about. It relates to a prosecution initiated by the Minister's Department before this hand-over took place. In an effort to get a telecommunication service into a new industry a newly appointed manager, not a director, signed the required documentation. Subsequently, that company went into liquidation and that person lost his job. He was served with proceedings by the Minister's Department but the matter had been almost resolved before the change took place. After the change the attitude of Bord Telecom could best be described as being on a par with the reception that was accorded to some of our colleagues on a recent visit to their headquarters.

I should like to say to the Minister that I am not prepared to see a man who has lost his job and who may well be deprived of his home because of a sincere interest on his part to see that an industry he was the manager of get off the ground being thrown to the sharks. When I made representations to the Minister's Department I got a good response but that response has gone out the window. I am not prepared to allow this man be thrown to the sharks. That may well be the outcome of this. I am saying to the Minister that unless we have some assurance that that type of approach and ruthlessness which this man endured ceases — it may be inflicted on a wider scale unless a brake is put on it — I am happy to sanction the powers to the board to pursue the course they pursue with that person.

While it has been necessary to come back pretty early in the life of a new Act with amendments I do not think they should be allowed to take away from the original work which was a monumental task and an excellent piece of work. As Senator Cassidy said it was inaugurated by one Government and carried through by another Government. It still remains a monumental task and these slight flaws should not take away from the overall impact and the work that went into it by an enormous amount of people.

I thank Senators for their helpful and co-operative manner and I have a feeling that I know the lines along which Senator Cassidy, and Senators Ferris and Browne might have gone had the Leas-Chathaoirleach not confined the debate strictly to the Bill. I will reciprocate by saying that a number of points were brought up in the Dáil when this Bill was going through and arising out of what I said I would get replies to the Deputies who raised various questions. If I duplicate that by sending the same replies to the Senators who spoke here, that may cover the area to the satisfaction of everybody.

Senators Howard's point is one that concerns us all. This is an area where big rolling machines can produce results that none of us likes. Bord Telecom and An Post are now semi-State bodies and we do not like to be looking over their shoulders. I do not think it would be very good if we did that. This issue has already been brought to the attention of the Minister. I will examine it and again bring it to the attention of the Minister with the very strong warning that the Senator has issued here. I will be in contact with the Senator on that. I again thank the Seanad for their very good reception given to the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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