It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 2 and 3, with a break from 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m., No. 3 to be taken at 6.30. For the information of Senators, I might indicate that it is proposed to sit tomorrow in order to take No. 4 and if that does not occupy us beyond lunch time, to take No. 5 after lunch.
Order of Business.
I do not want to be excessively combative. I suppose I have reason to be grateful that No. 2 appears as high on the Order of Business as it does but we may be unduly optimistic in thinking that it will arise this afternoon. It always seems to come high on the agenda on days when there is something which will take an enormous amount of time to be discussed and it slips further down the Order Paper on days when there might be a possibility of it slipping in. It was on 13 December last year that the Deputy Leader of the House said that while he would do his best he could not give a commitment before Christmas. At this stage I have to wonder which Christmas he was talking about, whether it was Christmas 1984 or 1985. The reason I am so concerned is because I wonder whether the Leader of the House knows anything about a report in today's Irish Press which suggests that the Government Bill on homelessness will be published tomorrow, or is it perhaps the case that the newspapers know more about the Government's business?
Finally, in my desperation to see if the Government did perhaps give some indication I came across a reference to grants in respect of homes and shelters which have been increased by 25 per cent. The trouble is that they are grants for homes and shelters for stray animals, which seem to come higher in Government priorities since the actual grant is bigger than the assistance given to those dealing with people who are homeless. Therefore I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business, that item No. 2 be taken at 4 o'clock or earlier if item No. 1 is completed.
I second the amendment. I do not see any reason for not being combative about this and I make no apologies whatsoever for asking the Government why time is not provided for these pieces of legislation which have been on the Order Paper for a long time and which are very important.
I, too, should like to support the plea made by Senator Brendan Ryan that this Bill should be taken today at a definite time because otherwise I can see it retreating to the horizon yet again and I feel it is a matter which should have been dealt with long ago and should be dealt with today at a specific time.
On another matter on the Order Paper, I would just like to ask — in a non-combative fashion — the Leader of the House if he has any notion in regard to when we will be proceeding with the Second Stage of the National Archives Bill. We have been waiting for this Bill for very many years and it is a matter of urgency as far as the records of the State are concerned. I am anxious that the Bill should not be allowed to sit around for ever and ever.
I would like to support Senator Ryan in seeking time to continue the debate on the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill. Indeed, I have been waiting for some time, as I know other Members of the House have been, to contribute to the debate on that important measure. Equally, I am anxious that we would continue and possibly even conclude the Second Stage of the Combat Poverty Agency Bill this afternoon. I am anxious that that Bill, as a Government Bill, would be processed rapidly and that the agency would be fully established. Instead of seeking to change the order for this afternoon, and although agreeing with Senator Ryan that it seems unlikely that item No. 2 will be reached as the business is ordered at the moment — I think he is right to raise the matter — it seems to me that it would be more appropriate that item No. 2 should be ordered for this afternoon and if not reached then ordered for tomorrow, because if the House is sitting tomorrow and taking a motion on disadvantaged areas followed by a motion on small businesses, it seems that it would be an appropriate day on which to continue the debate and perhaps conclude the Second Stage of this important Bill on housing the homeless. I would see that as a preferable course. I would not be able, in fact, to support the proposal to take the other Bill at a particular time because I think this Government Bill should get priority today. However, the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill if it is not reached today should be taken tomorrow.
I would like to ask your advice, in your capacity as Leas-Chathaoirleach, on how I might properly raise in the House the matter of unwarranted intrusion into the privacy of my telephone in Donegal. The reason I ask is that since the setting up of Bord Telecom I realise that it might not be within the ambit of the Department of Communications.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Loughrey, that is not appropriate to the Order of Business and you can see me in the afternoon.
Would you advise me on how I might raise the matter of the intrusion into the privacy of my telephone by political opponents in Donegal?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will talk to you in the afternoon about your phone in Donegal. It is not relevant to the Order of Business of the Seanad.
Then how may I raise it in the House? It is a very serious matter that one cannot have a private telephone conversation without having it listened into.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will talk to you.
It seems to me that both pieces of legislation before us are attempting to deal with deprived people in our society and it would seem that priority should not be given to either one or the other of them. When we take them is a matter of irrelevance in a sense. The sooner we get both pieces of legislation on the Statute Book the better.
On the Order of Business, I would like to ask the Leader of the House when is it intended to take the report of the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries, which is No. 11 on the Order Paper and which is something that we should be discussing before that report is out of date? The other matter that I think we should be dealing with as a matter of urgency, and I think it is something on which the Leader of the House would have a particular input, is motion No. 15 on the Order Paper. This is an item that has been discussed on a regular basis in the newspapers and on television over the past number of weeks and both Houses of the Oireachtas are coming in for a lot of stick because we have not discussed the question of European Union in either House. I think this item should be discussed as soon as possible. It would allay many fears that the public have as to what might or might not happen in regard to our continuing participation in the European Communities.
Before I sit down I would like to send word to the Cathaoirleach to wish him a speedy recovery from his illness.
I want to concur with the last remark before I make my comment about Senator Ryan's suggestion about changing the Order of Business. It puts Members of the House in an unfortunate situation in that they are now being asked to choose by way of a vote on the Order of Business between what are two very important pieces of legislation. It goes without saying that all of us want to ensure that the Combat Poverty Agency is set up as a matter of urgency in view of the level of poverty throughout the country. There would be no doubt in any of our minds that that is a Government Bill and it is of paramount importance that it be taken as the first item on the agenda.
As regards the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill, we have agreed that that is also very important legislation. The fact that it has remained on the Order Paper in spite of being ordered on numerous occasions has not been deliberate, certainly from the time when I was dealing with the Order of Business. It has not been a deliberate ploy as has been insinuated by Senator Ryan. I know that irrespective of whether Senator Ryan had a Private Members' Bill down on this subject, Deputy Liam Kavanagh, the Minister responsible in this area, has legislation which he informs me about every week, because I ask him, that is almost complete. I have no worry whatsoever about Senator Ryan's Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill because I know there is a Minister prepared to legislate in this area in any case. To anybody who worries about making choices or worries because we do not take this at 4 o'clock, or tomorrow, or next week, or whenever we take it, I say the matter is being dealt with expeditiously and efficiently by the Minister. This is a very complex area of legislation. Senators who are members of local authorities will know it is complex. We have housing lists of people and families who are technically homeless because they are living in mobile homes, etc. I have already made a contribution on the Bill but I want Members to see which is the more important piece of legislation to take as a first item on the agenda today.
In regard to the questions that have been raised, I would suggest that it is appropriate that we should finish the Second Stage of the Combat Poverty Agency Bill. Many Senators made the presumption that this would occupy us between now and 5.30 p.m. I am not so sure about that. It might conclude before then, in which case we would be able to take up the debate of the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill.
In regard to the suggestion of taking this Private Member's Bill tomorrow, I would be against that. We have made a general arrangement that for the next few months we will deal with legislation on Wednesday and that we will endeavour to clear the backlog of the reports of joint committees on Thursdays. I am, however, prepared to say that I see no reason why there should not be at least two hours of next Wednesday's sitting devoted to the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill. There may be some short motions that will have to be dealt with next week in Government Business, but in view of the extremely long delay I would be prepared to recommend the allocation of two hours of Government time on Wednesday next to this Bill. I would like to say that there has been Government approval for the proposals of the Minister for the Environment in regard to a comprehensive housing Bill which will deal with this among other matters. It is only a question of the length of time it will take to complete the legal drafting of that Bill before it is published and circulated. To think it would be circulated tomorrow would be a reflection of a speed in the parliamentary draftsman's office that would be something of a record. But the Government's decisions in regard to this Bill are made and the legislation is in the final stages of drafting. I see no reason why there should not be two hours of Government time given next week and I am prepared to give that undertaking.
In regard to suggestions made in relation to No. 11, on development co-operation, this is a very important report. It is one the Seanad would like to discuss and I suggest that we have discussions to see which Thursday during this month would be the most suitable for taking it. I think it would occupy the whole of one day.
In regard to item No. 15, which is the report of the joint committee dealing with the draft Treaty on European Union, I understand that the Dáil intends to discuss that in a few weeks time. There are very few occasions on which I am prepared to give way to the Dáil as having a right to priority in debate but I think this is such a vital issue that it would be more appropriate if the initial debate took place in the Dáil. I understand that will take place in a few weeks time and we could easily arrange then to debate it in this House one or two weeks following the Dáil debate. I see no difficulty in regard to that. So, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, I suggest to Senator Ryan that he withdraw his amendment on the understanding that there will be at least two hours devoted to this Bill on Wednesday, 8 May.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is the amendment withdrawn?
Yes.
I am sorry, I did ask the Leader of the House a question about the——
I am sorry, Senator McGuinness, but so many matters have been raised that I forgot the Senator's question. With regard to the National Archives Bill, Senators will remember that the Taoiseach, who has taken a great interest in this legislation, was prevented by illness from introducing the legislation to the House. He is extremely anxious to be here when the debate is resumed and to be able to reply to the debate. As Senators will know, the Taoiseach is now out of the country and will not be back for about two weeks but I can assure the House that I am pressing him to make himself available for the debate in the Seanad as soon as possible after his return.
In relation to item No. 15, I can see the point the Leader of the House is making as regards the Dáil debating this motion, that is a very important motion and that, therefore, he possibly would give way on this occasion. I cannot see why, on this occasion, both Houses should not deal with the matter simultaneously. It is not a Bill but it is something of extreme importance. It is something about which a lot of rubbish has been expressed and a lot of fears have been raised and the sooner we debate it in this House, irrespective of what the other House does, the better. I hope the Leader of the House will see his way to going along with my thinking on this.
I can agree with the Leader of the Opposition that a certain amount of rubbish has been expressed on certain areas of European Union. I think there is a difficulty of timing here, and perhaps it is as well to mention it. It is necessary for the Seanad to dispose of the Finance Bill before the end of May. We might well be in the difficulty, if we did want to discuss European Union simultaneously with the Dáil, that at the time when the Dáil would be discussing it, having despatched the Finance Bill, would be the time when we would have to deal with the Finance Bill. That is why I said we could discuss it very shortly afterwards. I agree that simultaneous discussion — or the Dáil discussing it on a Wednesday and the Seanad discussing it on a Thursday — would be desirable but the difficulty over the Finance Bill may hamper us somewhat there.
Order of Business agreed to.