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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 May 1985

Vol. 108 No. 4

Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries—1984 Report: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann takes note of the Report of the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries: Report for 1984.

It gives me great pleasure to move this motion as a member of the committee. The report covers, in a wide and comprehensive way, much important work that has been carried out by Members of the Dáil and Seanad over the last year. To come straight to the point, and I want to be as economical as I can with my time, I would like to begin by saying that those who look at the report will notice — in doing so I want to compliment everybody who worked in the preparation of this report, the Minister and his staff and in particular, Mr. Martin Greene — that it opens up page 4 with a printed photograph of refugees from famine under the title "1984 will be remembered as the Year of the African Famine". This asks us to assess our development co-operation programme against a wider context. I do not intend to deal with this in depth this morning. I want to raise some principles that arise.

First of all, at this time, when we look at the report now before us, Assistance to Developing Countries, Report for the Year 1984, we are reviewing our total overseas development aid programme which, of course, falls into two sections, our bilateral programme, which is directed towards four countries that have been selected, Lesotho, Tanzania, Sudan and Zambia. These four countries, which take up a very special amount of the programme have recently been visited by members of the co-operation committee including myself. I will turn to those in a moment.

The other programme, which is approximately the other part of our development assistance, some 60 per cent, is accounted for by our commitment in general development assistance and transmitted primarily through institutions of the European Community in modern times. On previous occasions I have commented upon this. There are two interpretations which can be put on it. The hostile cynic would suggest that we give over 60 per cent of our aid because we have to give it as we are members of the European Community. Others would say that this is not so and it underestimates the generosity of the people who designed the programme and the commitment of Government.

The appropriate way of striking a middle way in that evaluation is to look, for example, to countries like Denmark and Ireland and make the comparison which I think is not unfair. You will find immediately that as the total proportion of gross national product which a country gives rises over the proportion over which it has direct control and can exercise indicators in fact it begins to increase proportionately. It brings me to my first and most fundamental recommendation on this occasion as in previous years, that I want to repeat on behalf of the Labour Party and on behalf of the vast majority of the people in this country the commitment to the Minister that he will be supported in restoring the target of achieving the United Nations target in relation to the proportion of gross national product as is mentioned in the joint programme for Government. It is very wrong to slide away from that commitment and it is something that is not justified by economic circumstances. It tends to call into question the depth of the commitment in the first place.

I would like to clear a point. There seems to be some confusion as to the basis of calculation of our commitment. The joint programme was absolutely unambiguous. It suggested that we would reach the United Nations target by a specific date. The appropriate way to measure whether we are achieving our target or not is to go to that date and measure our progress from today towards it. The idea, for example, of recalculating the actual increase of last year, adding it to this year and then going on to some kind of geometric progression, if it were not the fact that I have the highest respect for those who involve themselves in that, is close to casuistry.

I want to unambiguously state that the commitment in Government is very clear. It is contained in the following words which I quote:

The Government will adhere to the commitment to increase development aid by .05 per cent of the gross national product each year until the United Nations target of 0.7 per cent is reached.

That is the commitment and it is no more or no less. I appeal that there be no confusion as to what that commitment is. I appeal for the political support for the commitment to achieve the target. I promise the Minister, on behalf of the Labour Party, support should he decide to embark on that road.

There is need for a coherent set of principles to guide Irish development assistance. I have made this point so often now as to be close to driving some people demented. I would like to put on record that the White Paper on development principles has not appeared yet. In the years when the people of Galway West conferred the honour of sending me to the other House I made this point as spokesman on foreign affairs, and on my returning here, due to the enormous generosity of the graduates of the National University, I continued to make the point that there is need for a White Paper, not for the sake of having one but providing (a) a political framework in which the development aid programme can be assessed and (b) a coherent set of principles which can guide our general development aid programme both in its multilateral form and in its bilateral form.

It is far more urgent than it has ever been. Having made those two general points, there is a need for a coherent set of principles. On the occasion of the tenth anniversary of Trócaire at an international seminar in Galway, the proceedings of which are now published in the book Ten Years of Action for Justice for World Development by the Communications Centre just a few weeks ago, I said that there were six essential elements in true development. I said:

Justice must prevail in the distribution of goods and services and inequality must be eliminated and the needs of future generations must be considered.

If I might move that principle of equality on from its ethical language, it is very clear that we must, in terms of debt, trade and the structure of aid, look at the impact of programmes from both the recipient and the donor perspective.

There is no doubt, if I begin with the third dimension, the question, for example, of aid that concern has been expressed very much more particularly about other countries' aid to the developing world more than the Irish one, that aid is very often a form of disguised exports, it makes very little attempt to link itself into the development needs of the communities towards which it is directed, that it is very often staffed and administered by people who are not sensitive to the immediate or long term needs of the place to which it is directed and so forth. Equally, in relation to trade, it seems to me that there are massive contradictions very often in directing aid with one hand and at the same time participating with a different voice in the international trade institutions.

For example, I had been worried about discussions which have frequently taken place even within the general agreement on trade and tariffs where derogations from particular developments have been sought which have the effect of frustrating not only aid proposals but have created vast inequities. A typical example has been the attempt by the United States Government to achieve, through derogations within the GATT, the establishment of its Caribbean Base Initiative which had many exclusive principles which excluded Nicaragua from assistance and allowed other countries within the ambit of the CBI to benefit. This is, as I said, an operation by stealth and it raises a point, to which I will come in a moment, that is, the necessity for there being the characteristic of integrity in Irish foreign policy.

Having returned recently from Africa, I must say that one of the problems which struck me both going and coming was the fact that, while one saw the effects of shortages and, in its extreme sense, the whole effect of children with distended stomachs from different parasitical related illnesses, the fact of the matter is that at the end of the day there is a framework which locks many of the African countries into what can only be regarded as the politics and economics of starvation and death. That is the manner in which the structure of international debt, exacerbated very much by the strong dollar, has increased both the absolute and the interest component of these countries' capacity to survive, not only now, but should they survive past their present difficulties, in future generations.

If we take the principle of equity then in relation to both debt, trade and aid, as I have been describing it, curiously this is a good week to discuss this, because the whole world was moved, I believe, when the last of the concentration camps were opened at the end of World War II and it was a powerful impetus to the establishment of the human rights movement which gave us various principles of human rights, including the charter and a number of other specific directives, on the principle that humanity should never again fall to the depth to which it had fallen.

It is unfortunate that the regular experience of famine has not had the same effect on the world's population, but very particularly on the world's political leadership, to achieve the same result. It is as if in fact, in its own condemnation, philosophically, morally and politically on the world, there has been a complete failure to develop a moral institutional response to the regular effects of famine, All anybody might need to do to think about that, to test that suggestion, is to ask what is happening in relation to some of the more general fora addressing themselves to the problem of famine. There is at the moment the very terrible reality that commitments that had been made in relation medium term commitments to African food shortages by many of the countries in Europe are not being met.

There is the total failure, effectively, of the IMF to restructure itself and there is the whole question in relation to the structure of trade. In the last couple of years we have seen a rise in the cost of imports of most of the developing countries, particularly the least developing countries. They benefited slightly in the early seventies. You have this relative collapse of many of the prices of their major exports. This is exercising a stran-glehold before you arrive in these countries. We have, for example, the disgraceful attempt by the International Monetary Fund, to bring countries like Tanzania to its knees, to bring it through hunger to its knees.

It is very interesting that the two countries in the world which have sought an independent path to development, Tanzania in Africa and Nicaragua in Central America, are both countries which under their present regime are not now receiving, despite their immense problems, one penny from the International Monetary Fund. The price of receiving aid was that they would abandon the integrity of their own independent policy towards development and, coupled with that fact, which is disgraceful in itself, has been the politicisation of United States overseas aid. There has been the suggestion that such aid as will be given now, to quote the United States Foreign Office, will be given where the private sector is encouraged and developed. What right have we to say that aid given like that is development aid at all? This is rather like giving beans to slaves. It is saying that if you work the way we say, you will eat. That is what, effectively, these international institutions are saying.

It raises my second principle that I believe is important in relation to international overseas development aid, that is freedom. The principle of freedom really refers to the integrity and right to self-determination of nations, that individuals must be respected and that their basic rights, provided for in the declaration of human rights, be assured for society and within societies. Most importantly, aid in itself cannot be used and should not be used as a principle for undermining the sovereignty of nations. Their sovereignty includes the right to establish separate development aid strategies.

I will be returning in just a moment to the specific detail of the report before us which contains much good news. This report comes to us in a context that it is very important to understand. Nationally, we are in a very dangerous frame of mind. It is important that I make this point before the local elections. There is, if you like, in this country at present, a perceptible weariness of compassion rather like the person who said to me, "Do not mention Ethiopia to me again". The people of Africa are not dying to suit the whims of Irish charity or compassion. We have, in fact, distinguished ourselves in Europe and in the world by giving an enormous amount of money in response to hunger. We should rightly feel good about doing something that is morally correct. It is something of which we can be proud. It is extremely important that we translate that compassion into some acceptance of commitment towards justice in the international institutions in relation to our overall political strategy in the international foray in which we operate and in the acceptance of a set of principles to guide our development.

That brings me to the importance of the White Paper. Now the argument is, should it be a short White Paper that moves from a description of what we have done towards an indication of what we might do in the future? I believe not. That would be to sacrifice the development education dimension of the White Paper. It is important for young people, middle aged people and anyone who is interested, or the people who elect us, to know the way that we are thinking and the political principles which guide us and let us differ as to the emphasis we might give to one principle over another. That should be stated so that we can adjudge our actions within some kind of coherent framework.

A third principle in international development aid policy should be the principle of democracy. This raises an enormous question because it almost contradicts the second one at points, a point which came up in the negotiations of the latest Lomé. If you want, for example, to avoid wasting money in countries on vast prestigious projects, if you want to get people-to-people aid, and you want to get to areas where it will be diffused most and use local technology, if you are saying that are you not interfering with the freedom of the particular countries, are you not intervening past the point of sovereignty? It is best to realise that the democratic principle when we speak about it, is that we are using it with a major content of participation, that is that at the end of the day it is the impact across the widest spectrum of people within a recipient country that must be the test.

A fourth principle, a principle of solidarity, is that we have had the interesting situation — I have said earlier and I want to be very clear about it — that the IMS give no money at the moment to Nicaragua. Lest people think that it never did, in the six weeks before the Somoza dictator left Managua it gave $6 million despite being in treaties with 17 member countries not to give any more money. It knew, when it gave it, that out of $1.6 billion given to Nicaragua in aid, $.8 billion never reached Nicaragua and is lodged today in different banks, including the United States banking system in Florida, and elsewhere. In full knowledge of that the IMF went ahead and gave $6 million to prop up the last days of a dictator. It was later to look on and suggest that only on the condition of Nicaragua reversing its economic plan of reconstruction, expanding the private sector, would it consider any relationships with Nicaragua.

On our visit to Africa, it was most impressive that in both Tanzania and Lesotho there was a wide acceptance by Irish volunteers, by and large, of the importance of respecting the culture and integrity of the countries to which they went. This is not always so. The general principle of culture is diversity and the acceptance within that of the integrity of recipient cultures is an extremely important point. There is in the development industry a breed of people called the "when we's" who keep talking about "when we were in Africa", "when we were in Asia", "when we were in Latin America" and "when we were in Sri Lanka" who in fact are bringing with them their pride of aspirations, which is a kind of tarted up tourism, whose development principles can be called into question. In fairness to the Irish people who work abroad in many of these different countries, it must be said that they have gone out with a very high level of motivation. They have been practising a great respect for the culture and integrity of the settings in which they find themselves.

The final point which became clearer to me when we visited Tanzania is that in programmes there has to be a great consideration for environmental integrity, that is the whole question of reversing processes of diversification and to try to intervene in the manner of producing substitute fuels for wood. In some of the districts in Africa their reliance on some woods as a source of energy is over 90 per cent with all the implications that has in relation to the future state of soils and so forth.

I have said two main things. The first is we need to increase the volume of our assistance by restoring the United Nations target. The second thing that I have said is that you cannot operate what is called pragmatically simply operating one year after another without losing something unless you have the overall direction of a White Paper. I strongly recommend that. I know that work is at an advanced stage. That White Paper could provide us with political framework, the necessity for which has been indicated by recent world developments that come to bear on undeveloped countries. Within that political framework certain clear principles can and should become a matter of debate. The reason why I said that they can and should become a matter of debate is that I believe it would be a very important contribution to development education.

It is very important that a most urgent accomplishment of such a programme would be to try to locate the attitude of the Irish public towards the task of development in a harder way. The fact of the matter is that in the Brandt report, North-South, A Programme for Survival, a summary of which was published in 1980, the following quotations occur:

In many African countries food output has grown more slowly than population. The expansion of food production and agricultural employment in the low-income countries is crucial. ...Agriculture provides 44 per cent of the poorest countries' GNP and 83 per cent of their employment. Yet they are not growing enough to feed their people, and projections indicate that they will encounter a food gap of at least 20 million metric tons by 1990. The most fundamental difficulty is control and management of water... especially the Sahel zone as well as Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia and Tanzania. An action programme must be launched comprising emergency and longer-term measures, to assist the poverty belts of Africa and Asia and particularly the least developed countries. Such a programme would require additional financial assistance of at least £4 billion per year for the next two decades, at grant or special concessional terms, assured over long periods and available in flexibly usable forms. Estimates by the International Food Policy Research Institute, the FAO and the World Bank indicate needs for additional assistance to agriculture up to 1990 from $4 billion to over $8 billion a year, matched by very considerable additional investment and recurrent expenditures by the countries themselves.

My main reason for saying this is that the African crisis, which is represented on the inside cover of the report which is before the Seanad this morning, was predicted by experts again and again. It was studied. It was commented upon by the international institutions that had within them the specialist knowledge of identifying the scale of the crisis and that could predict it. Perhaps it is that incidents in particular areas and in particular years could not have been predicted in the exact detail in which they happened. It makes my point, why should children have to die before the television cameras to move populations, when the political and institutional structures are themselves not willing to be moved in structural principles?

I will finish this section by saying this. The structure of the development needs of the world are located within a specific structure of resources, within a structure of politics and within a structure of economics. Each of these has an institutional expression in all of the major international institutions. I am not simplifying the case because one has only to turn specifically to this document that is before us. I paid a compliment to Mr. Green earlier and I do so again, but we have had very valuable documents submitted to us during the year including one taking up the question of the capacity of regions of African countries and African countries individually to feed their population, trying to get beyond this question of reductionism, of suggesting that the problems of African food production are simply ones related to climate or simply ones related to the organisation of agricultural production in a single country.

There are problems of food transfers within the African country to which we made reference. Equally, there is the question if you take up the argument about the United States aid. May I say that the Soviet aid in the last ten years has been disgracefully tied? There may be more and more of it linked to military aid. It has not grown. In fact, the two great super powers have increased their spending on armaments and they have been declining in relation to overall aid. The reason why this House in the last few years has occasionally felt it necessary to vote additional supplements of aid has been to make good the gaps left by the major powers.

The work of the committee has been invaluably aided by looking more closely at these questions. I want to mention one example, that is the transition from subsistence economy to cash economy. On this question there is a great deal of prejudice and little less than that. There is an assumption almost of what we now call natural law theory within development economics, that where you have a private sector and a mixed economy automatically you will have communities who will rise to the top and start circulating commodities through the underdeveloped countries and that if you interfere with these in any way through forms of State production, you will automatically destroy your natural capacity to feed your people and give your country the commodities that it requires.

This is a gross assumption. It is important to realise that if you move to a system of State led production in agricultural and other commodities and at the same time, walls much higher in economic terms than the Berlin wall so much central to the present administration in the United States, are placed around a country, then obviously you are creating special circumstances within the country so that it will experience shortfall. In many ways you end up with the worst of all worlds as countries are forced to fall within a mixed economic model, that is having some aspects of State led agricultural production and at the same time trying to sustain a parallel economy. These are matters, by the way, which I believe should be more thoroughly discussed in the work of the committee during 1985 and 1986.

The Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries are interested not only in detail. We have all agreed now among ourselves that we want to move on to talk about philosophy and the economics of undevelopment in a more thorough way, taking on issues like the question of parallel economy, the question of development economics, the politics of development and so forth.

To move to the concluding section of my remarks I just want, lest any of these general principles should be seen as an alternative to recognising the work that has been carried out by the programme, to point out that I have paid tribute already to those who designed the programme. I am worried about a couple of points. Perhaps it would be arrogant of me to speak for all of the committee but I am only talking about the informal conversations which I had with them and we tend to operate not in a partisan way but in a way of much agreement. We have seen ourselves running up against issues of principle both in terms of politics and economics and social structures. I feel that in many cases there are delicate political contexts which have to be taken into account. Of the four countries of the bilateral aid programme one is Lesotho and a question must be asked about the elections which are due to take place there.

Obviously, we cannot talk about our bilateral programme of which Lesotho is at the top. We have to bear in mind the political structures of that country, which are quite complex. Having developed an interest in elections and election watching in recent times, not as an academic study but because of their implications, I would express grave doubts about the elections that are to take place in terms of the requirement which is necessary both in cash terms and the requirement in nomination terms. I cannot recall the details accurately but I think a sum of 1,000 rand is necessary as a deposit to stand, which is not the most significant obstacle but the one that each candidate be nominated by 500 persons certainly is. We have to watch the political context and the manner in which the BCP behaves with its South African connection. It is clear as day in my mind that it has direct connections with the Lesotho Liberation Army and its funds are being provided indirectly by South Africa. Perhaps it is an impression. We will have to delicately watch the conditions which prevail in the country towards which we give aid.

Within that country are people who are working far beyond the level of dedication that I have seen anywhere else, doing wonderful programmes. For example, the Basotho pony project which has been assisted by people from Bord na gCapall and some others from Ireland is a marvellous project. Equally, I think that the two workers who have between them enabled 1,000 women to acquire knitting skills which will enable them to export their products into world markets where they can sell them have accomplished tasks that are not easily seen here. Again, there are questions in relation to the whole modernisation of the economy but particularly in relation to the provision of educational skills, structures, administration and so forth. It is our money that is involved and I do not want there to be any doubt about it. I have no doubt that we are getting value for every pound we spend in our bilateral programme in that country, Lesotho.

How do we say that we are getting value? I believe that it is being spent in a more integrated way. It is establishing more linkages with the indigenous development potential of the economy and it is also, in relation to the personnel component of it, being wedded much better to the personnel of the recipient countries than many other programmes, programmes that are bigger and wider.

In relation to Tanzania I must express the gravest doubts. The country has, exercising its sovereignty, done something which will be, in history, respected by trying to carve a separate path between two separate systems of politics and economics. I recall very well, when the first hopes began to appear about the Julius Nyerere villagisation project and built around the concept of Ujamaa.

I remember well the theoretical people who moved in at that stage and said it was very interesting. Today you have the cleverest form of imperialism of all time within the media in relation to the international press. It is to suggest that Julius Nyerere was a saint who understood nothing about economics or politics. The idea was that he will be remembered for his saintliness and his personal integrity and the lack of corruption in his personal life but that he failed to develop his country. Then you look at who is saying this, the mouthpieces of the international banks, the people who want to have a private sector restored as in Kenya on the Kenyan model and so forth.

The villagisation programme which serves as a background to our work in Tanzania is in fact very interesting. Perhaps, as in anything else, it had an element of coercion in it which was resented in the early stages. However, it has provided an organisational base for development which is unique in Africa in many ways. That is a process of consultation that exists in villages and, of course, this varies as in anything else but no more than from one local authority in Ireland to another — and they do differ. There is a differential capacity to respond to projects. Our workers, again, have found that there are people to go to and that there are people who can debate as to what the real needs of the village and the district are. They have found that to be enormously valuable. What is of course bringing the country to its knees are the external conditions which are being imposed upon it. There is at the minute an attempt to try to bring back the trade unions that were there before villagisation and also to restore some of the co-operative models. This is an acknowledgement of errors but it is not an argument in principle against the system that prevails in Tanzania. I am very glad to say that I do not recall meeting among any of the workers in Africa such criticisms of the system in its general principles but there is an awareness of the difficulties which the country faced in relation to development projects and so forth.

Again, among the arguments of that international migratory tribe, the "when we's" there was the suggestion automatically that they have shortages of soap and they cannot get deodorants and they have great difficulties about these things. They go to Nairobi and the shops are full of these things. We are all accustomed to that crude, vulgar argument. To turn to Kenya, which is not one of the countries mentioned in this report and I will not delay on it, you could report a slightly better average income. It is equally one which has bigger gaps in relation to income, gaps that are indicated not only by income but by social and housing conditions and health conditions.

I hope this report opens the way for discussion. I often wonder, when it gets locked up in either the Dáil or the Seanad, as to what extent the debate widens out. There are encouraging things, there is more interest now in development education and there is every evidence that there is a desire among teachers for materials which they can use in the classroom. That debt will be of benefit.

It would be very wrong if I did not pay tribute, not to the Government's programme, but to the many non-governmental organisations — the NGOs — with which the Government co-operate, particularly the many voluntary agencies, differing among themselves as they do in philosophy, some concentrating on satisfying the immediate needs of aid and others interested in investing in structures. I want to clear a point here that could be unnecessarily divisive. Those people who say, for example, that to create the capacity to feed yourself or to invest in the short term in projects which will enable people to sustain themselves, are not necessarily in contradiction with those who are addressing themselves to the immediate needs of survival today. Neither is this to say that those who bring in quick and instant famine relief are in any tension with those who are involved in more structural-oriented programmes. All the programmes which have been assisted enormously by the Irish people, Trócaire, Concern, goal and all of those who are sending medical assistance, even those who are sending specialist assistance, are to be assisted.

Members of the Seanad will note that there is a discussion on the special disaster relief which was sent this year. I compliment the Minister both on achieving this in Cabinet and I also want to compliment him and the officials of his Department for the influence that they exerted within the European Community in achieving a more developed view — to use an unfortunate word — in relation to disaster and development assistance.

It is a small point but important one. I think in the history of Central America the San José meeting which was referred to in this report, which was under the Irish Presidency, will go down as a very important meeting. That was an attempt that was made by the United States Government, which is referred to at page 40 of the report, to exclude Nicaragua from the aid which the Community might give towards the Caribbean basin. That suggestion was facilitated by the conservative administrations of Britain and Germany — the current conservative administrations, I emphasise. It was rejected and the Community achieved a certain amount of respect for its own integrity in resisting the suggestion of the infamous Schultz letter. There is no doubt that in these matters small countries can exert great influence.

I welcome this report. I move it before the House, not for its adoption formally, but hoping that it will spark off a debate here and in the other House and throughout the Community that will address these issues in the fullness of their complexity. I want to repeat my plea for the support that the Minister should get in developing these issues.

On the occasion when the Minister of State was first appointed and when it was decided to have a special emphasis in what is still today a totally understaffed Department, it was felt that this was a great development. I think it was. It was an education of an urgent specialism but I would not like to think that the moral issues being pursued in development aid policy and the foreign policy positions that are being developed should ever be overlooked. There are principles generically developing and evolving within the development aid programmes. I would like to see these moving to the heart of foreign policy. It should be at the core of our foreign policy. There should be no suggestion of any of the achievements we make in this area being contradicted by other considerations. Considerations of trade can influence foreign policy. It is better to be wide open about this. If we are looking for the character of integrity within foreign policy I have no doubt that this Government, the Minister and the Opposition will support the idea that the development needs and the needs that we have been discussing be moved to the core of foreign policy, and I believe that we would be thanked for it rather than for trimming our sails towards other considerations.

People who are concentrating on other aspects of foreign policy exclusively would do well to move their attention to include development aid. This is a very important matter. Language in tough times is one of the first casualties. There is nothing pragmatic about managing a structure of trade that is part of a system of oppression that produces hunger, but there is something very pragmatic about saving lives today and in the next few years. There is something extremely moral about committing ourselves to a progressive policy to develop different structures. I propose and recommend this report to the House. It would be appropriate at this stage——

Could I intervene here to say that there is a division in the other House?

I would just like to say thanks to all the members of the committee who worked hard and to all the people who assisted us in every way, particularly those who gave evidence, both oral and written.

Acting Chairman

Senator Lanigan is next. Does he want to suspend the sitting until the Minister returns?

It will be only a few minutes.

I think we will continue. I am not too sure how I can start after listening to the excellent contribution made by Senator Higgins. After his contribution I do not think we could place him in the tribe of "when we's" nor do I think you could place him in the area of the tarted-up tourists who head off to Africa on occasions to listen to the harrowing tales of that continent. In a serious vein, we must get back to what is down here on paper, that the Seanad takes note of the report of the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries. It does not actually give the story behind the report. It is not often realised that what we are talking about here is a tragic story of billions of people. We are talking about the tragic story of over three-quarters of the world's population.

When you see it in a sentence, it is not easy to convey the problems that are associated with this report. We are talking about mass poverty on a scale that is incomprehensible to people in Ireland. It is a story of social strains and political instability in the majority of the countries we are discussing. It is an area which, to anyone who looks at the situation, is a potential danger to world peace. It is a story of land hunger on a massive scale and a story of exploding cities on a massive scale. It is a story of overpopulation on a massive scale; it is a story of malnutrition and disease that are incomprehensible to any one of us who lives in the western world.

It is extremely difficult in a short debate to go into the problems associated with developing countries and to assess the value of the programmes which are contained in the report by the Department of Foreign Affairs and the report of the Joint Committee. Having said that it is difficult, we have to attempt to analyse the problems and see if we in Ireland are dealing with them as best we can. When we read through the reports we cannot but be impressed by the list of excellent projects being carried out by the various organisations involved in assistance here, whether the organisations are State-sponsored or are private groups or educational or industrial groups.

In reading both reports we can gain the impression that everything in our aid programme is successful, necessary and the type of aid that is needed in Third World countries. Irish people have shuddered at the harrowing scenes described by radio commentators, news media reporters and TV reports. We have heard the despairing cries of people of all ages, but of course we will not really get the story in Ireland until we get another element into our reportage, and that is the other sense that is not conveyed by the media at present. We can see and hear but we cannot smell; it is only when people can smell deprivation, can smell poverty, can smell death, that they will really begin to realise the problems involved.

Senator Higgins mentioned that the scenes from Buchenwald and Auschwitz conveyed over the past week to many people the degradation, murder and horrific power of a Government, but they did not give us the one sense that the first people who went into those camps had, which turned them off, and that was the smell of those camps. Until we have a medium whereby smell can be conveyed we are not going to be able to assess the major problems.

We have heard of the vain attempts of aid groups to make certain that aid in famine areas is properly distributed and that food and medical supplies get to the areas of greatest need. We are well acquainted with the political and military battles being fought in many of the countries which have problems in feeding the huge population of these often very barren areas without proper systems of communication. What we have not addressed ourselves to are the reasons for poverty in the Third World, the politics at international and national level which affect the poorer countries. We have not properly addressed ourselves to the politics of aid at international level, nor indeed the effect of multinational companies in the area of the Third World.

The reports before us to do not address themselves to anything except to list the areas which are getting aid, except in the introduction by Minister O'Keeffe, in which he states that the economic crisis in Africa has raised many questions about the effectiveness of the aid effort by the international community during the past two decades. There is no attempt to analyse the effect of our aid efforts on the broad spectrum. It is acknowledged that as our own contribution to the Third World is small, it is only possible to assess the effects of small and excellent projects in a very narrow perspective. When we discuss the Third World we can often confine ourselves to the corruption involved in some Third World countries, to the riots, to the disasters and to the international conflicts over who controls these barren, inhospitable and huge land masses and the maps that separate these from the ongoing problems of the poor areas or indeed of the international implications of the growth of poverty.

Before going into details on the report, with some comments, I feel that it should be pointed out that the countries covered contain the areas of most disastrous climates in the world, the greatest areas of earthquake and seismic belts, tropical cyclones, with the greatest area of desert and dry steppe. Before colonisation it had the greatest amount of nomadic pastural agriculture and hoe culture. The most significant statistic to emerge, which has had major effects on the Third World countries, has been the fact that it was mainly colonised by Europeans, by the Spanish, Portuguese, British, French, the Belgians and the Germans. It is very significant that these colonialist countries left behind the areas of greatest deprivation while themselves becoming very wealthy. We note that the temperate world or the developed world has the greatest wealth while the hot world has the greatest poverty. This difference between riches and poverty produces income differences of over 30 times.

The areas under consideration have the greatest population growth rates in the world, which is a major consideration when we discuss the countries. It has to be said that the areas have two major religious groups, Moslems and Roman Catholics, with the Moslems now having the greatest growth rate. It is this very high population growth rate which is causing the major change in the balance of nature and has caused changes in farming methods which are detrimental to the development of the people in these areas. Originally, we had what was called the slash and burn type of farming in these areas. They slashed the bush; they slashed the trees and then they burned them out but they left the roots in place. It was not the most efficient type of farming but at least it meant that the trunks were left in the ground and erosion did not take place. Planting took place between the bush roots and the tree trunks. Mixed crops were planted, of varying heights and of different types. Cultivation could only take place for a maximum of three years in these areas because of the type of hoe culture that went on. Then the farmers moved on to a different area and the worked-out land was left fallow, the roots developed and in a number of years farming could take place again by way of the slash and burn method. But as the population of these areas grew the fallow period became shorter and erosion had taken place. Fertility had shrunk and the yields had fallen and the soil had become exhausted.

When we discuss these two reports we must attempt to bring up-to-date agricultural methods to these lands which are now exhausted but could be brought back. We must ensure that deeper ploughing methods are used and that adequate fertilisers are sent in to keep the land in good condition. In this context it is good to note that our aid is comprised of very many good agricultural projects and that our educational programme is geared towards the agricultural sector, where we see the greatest hope of reclaiming more land and thereby ensuring that, even though for other economic reasons there will still be poverty in these regions, at least there will not be the great tragedy of hunger and death from lack of food, or the great problems associated with malnutrition, even where some food is available.

One of the problems which colonisation brought in particular to Africa was the breakdown of the traditional form of land tenure, which gave everybody rights to use land but never to own it. After colonisation, private holdings of property emerged, which should have improved the system of farming but it did not as the colonists did not leave behind them the necessary means of production either in cash or materials.

We in Ireland and in the rest of the Western world have the technical means to help the Third World agriculture to become more productive, but we need to transfer both the technological means and also cash to make continuing investments. The poverty trap in the Third World increases daily, and the West is not doing enough to bridge the gap between poverty and reasonable standards.

The world is losing agricultural land at twice the rate that new land is being cultivated. This is something we cannot understand or comprehend in this country. An area as big as Great Britain is disappearing every year and soil is being exhausted and eroded at the rate of 2½ billion tonnes per annum. If present rates of shrinking of arable land continues there will be, according to the United Nations, only .15 hectares of land per person by the year 2000, half of the 1975 level. Productivity would have to double to allow people to get the same amount of food as today.

In 1975 there were 1,240 million hectares under cultivation and over the next 25 years another 30 million hectares may be opened up but 600 million hectares will be lost. At least half the erosion will take place in developing countries where 700 million people live, apart from the 80 million who are living in the area under desertification at present. As an instance we note that in the Sudan, an area which is under considerable strain at present, the southern edge of the Sahara has moved south by 100 kilometres between 1958 and 1978. When one considers that that means an area of land from Dublin to Kilkenny has disappeared into desert in that period it is a horrific thought. The Thaar desert in Ragasthan is expanding by a half mile per year, again a horrific figure. There is a leprosy called man which is eroding the soil. Leprosy as a disease erodes the person but man is eroding the soil by population increase. The number of people in the Sahel is doubling every 25 to 30 years. We see the consequence of this where even the pastoral nomads, the Bedouins, are increasing. Bedouins are not increasing at the same rate as other people but they are increasing too fast to be able to sustain themselves in the very difficult area in which they live. As the population increases they need more animals to sustain themselves and these animals need more land on which to feed. There is continuing pressure on available arable land.

One of the major problems in the world in attempting to solve the problems of poverty has been the progressive destruction of the Third World stock of trees. This has accelerated the decay of soil and has reduced the capacity of land to feed and employ people. It has led to reduced rainfalls and drought.

Between 1900 and 1965 half the forest areas in developing countries were cleared for cultivation. The 935 million acres of closed tropical forest still left is disappearing at the rate of 1.5 per cent to 2 per cent a year. In Panama more than two-fifths of the forest was cut between 1954 and 1972. In Brazil in 1975 the forests were being cleared at the rate of 62,500 square miles per year. It is difficult to comprehend that 62,500 square miles of forest were being cleared per year. That 62,500 square miles was producing a quarter of the world's oxygen. Not alone is the forest disappearing but when the creation of oxygen is being eliminated at that rate people should be worried. Deforestation speeds up desertification and even now crop residues and stubble are being burned as fuel. Because of the lack of shrubs now topsoil is being washed away. In India 75 per cent of domestic fuel consumption comes from dung because they do not have any other means of firing. As a result of the topsoil being washed away because of the lack of trees salinisation and silting have become problems. In India 15 per cent of all irrigated land has been damaged by salinity, one-fifth of the land in Pakistan and one-quarter of the land in Iraq has been damaged by salinisation.

There will have to be radical changes in land management and ownership in Third World countries. We must provide co-ops giving those who live on the land access to the land and produce, by channelling investment towards subsistent farmers whereby they will be able to stay on their land and give them proper availability of Government services, credit and advice. We must ensure a control of the spread of mechanisation and make job-creating, labour intensive methods of agriculture more attractive. Land is essential for food and work, and what are not wanted are model pilot projects with prosperous workers, which are useful to show to visitors, probably the tarted up tourists which were described by Senator Higgins, who will go there and come back to the West and suggest that the West is doing a great job because they have looked at pilot projects in which people are prosperous, when outside the barrier there are people who are hungry and who have no hope of ever living in the conditions that prevail in these tarted up tourist spots. The lucky few get the benefits and the many get none.

The rural areas of developing countries are being totally starved for funds, and one of the problems of developing countries has been the expansion of cities by people who have no realisation of what urban poverty is. We in the West tend to associate dirt with lack of personal hygiene and think that these people do not care. The relativity between what dirt is and what it is seen to be can best be illustrated by the dirt of an egg. The shell may be filthy but inside there can be a perfect growing organism, it may be a developing chicken or a beautiful piece of food. People tend to think that because in the developing world people are dirty it is because they do not care. They care but they have not got the means to clean themselves. They have the same capacity to feel as we have. We have to do something about the urban poor in developing countries, and we have to ensure that the massive sprawls of urbanisation in Third World countries do not continue.

In the Third World countries even though there has been a small drop in birth rates, it is growing at a faster rate than in developing countries. We often hear it said here that a young population is a big bonus. In the western world this is often true because the young people are well educated and well fed and can look forward to a reasonable future even though at times we might despair of what is in store for our children. In comparison with what is in store for children in the Third World our children can reasonably look forward to being well fed and to a reasonable future.

During this time of great hunger in the Third World the size of the young population is a great cause of concern. Under 15s makes up 44 per cent of the African population, 42 per cent of the population of Latin America and over 40 per cent in most parts of Asia. We claim that we have a very young population, but it is nothing by comparison with the young population in these areas of deprivation. Approximately 24 per cent of the population in Europe is under 15 and approximately 26 per cent in North America is under 15. This generation in the Third World is bigger than the older generation, and the rise in population is continuing. The population of the Third World will be twice as big in a few years' time. For a number of reasons the Third World cannot sufficiently feed itself at present and the western world is not willing to help or is incapable of comprehending the magnitude of the problem. Only a massive world programme of education, aid and information can give any hope that we will have world order in which poverty will not continue. The word "hunger" has different connotations for different people, and hunger in Ireland is different from hunger in the Third World. Sometimes it can be seen at starvation levels, limbs projecting from broken skin, deep hollowed eyes and begging bowls but it is only in extreme conditions that one sees people who are nothing but skin and bone.

Hunger to most people is a reality of continuing fatigue and being vulnerable to illness. It is estimated that in the early seventies there were 455 million getting less than the minimum intake of food required to keep body and soul together. Protein energy malnutrition is widespread in developing countries. Children suffer greatly because of it. Rarely do they live long enough to have what we consider to be a normal life. Unfortunately we see the spread of disease in the Third World because of the worldwide change over from breast fed babies to bottled milk. Mother's milk is the cheapest and the best food available to babies in the Third World because of the exposure to polluted water on weaning babies and this polluted water spreads canned milk bacillus. The western method of baby feeding is detrimental to children in the Third World.

There is no such thing as world hunger, but only the hunger of particular areas and particular social groups. The total food resources available in the world would be adequate to feed everyone properly if fairly distributed among nations and social groups. We in Europe with our huge food mountains must increasingly play a significant part in seeing that this distribution takes place.

In the west the average calorie intake is 3,340 calories per day, or 31 per cent more than needed. We can see the results in collective fat, overweight and obese people and their attempts to get rid of it by jogging and playing squash. In the Third World the calorie intake is approximately 2,000 per day on average, but there is a large number who would be totally under that figure and suffer from malnutrition. Malnutrition is not the result of inadequate world food production, it is the result of poverty, of gross inequality in the distribution of income and land, of Government bias against the poor and the provision of clean water and sanitation which could prevent much malnutrition. The major killers in the west are the diseases of affluence, cancer and circulatory diseases, whereas in the developing countries the diseases are infectious, parasitic diseases mainly caused by unclean water and poor sanitation. In Ireland people crib about paying approximately 65p a week to get sanitation and water. In the Third World if people could get clean water, three-quarters of the problems of disease and hunger could be overcome. We in the west must ensure that before we embark on huge programmes for the provision of doctors and hospitals we must embark on a massive programme for the provision of clean water.

I was pleased that Senator Higgins raised the question of the political, ethical and moral connotations of aid, because he brought in the politics of aid. There is absolutely no doubt but that politics play a major part in what we consider to be aid to developing countries. The dictionary defines "aid" as "help", but to many people it means charity and makes the giver feel self righteous because of his generosity to these poor starving people whom he has never met, never seen, will never encounter and has no comprehension of. He thinks that the receivers should feel grateful for this charity. Because of the current international economic order much is taken from Third World countries in the form of interest on borrowings and profit on sales of machines and so on. Senator Higgins placed great emphasis on the question of borrowings and sales. He mentioned that as a proportion of GNP the western world is dropping its aid to the Third World in real terms. This can be seen from the percentage of GNP going in aid from developed countries to the Third World.

The only countries which have significantly increased their percentage GNP to the Third World are the OPEC countries. People may say that is because they have oil resources but as a proportion of GNP they are giving away a non-renewable source of income. The countries in the oil bearing areas which are self-sufficient are very few, and the majority of countries in the Middle East are not self-sufficient, they depend on aid from the world outside even though a few of these countries have significant oil resources. It must be remembered that these oil resources are non-renewable, and because of this if one just takes the figure of GNP that is given to Third World countries, the significance of their contribution is much greater than it is in the west.

The 1975 figure for American aid was $4 billion dollars. The Americans in that particular year spent $4.3 billion on barber shops, on hair stylists and bath services. How significant is world aid when one considers that they spent $.3 billion more in having their hair styled, in having their faces lifted and having bathroom fittings? It shows the priorities of the Americans in terms of their aid to developing countries. The level of aid stems not from the ability to pay a loan but from political attitudes. America has cut its multilateral aid programmes enormously and has now started to use the bilateral system of aid. By using that system they help the countries which are politically satisfying to them and do not look at the problems in the world. They look to their friends. If I say I will be a friend of America, I will get aid. If I am not a friend of America I will not get aid.

We had a debate in this House last year on the International Development Association when, thankfully, and because of the input of Minister O'Keeffe, Ireland increased its funding to the International Development Association, when the United States had gone away from its commitment. Senator Higgins mentioned this in his speech. He did not mention the fact that commitment rather than the outturn is of no relevance, it is the outturn that is of relevance. The two IDAs have significant parallels in this situation. The International Development Association got commitments from various people in terms of the moneys spent. The IDA in Ireland speaks about job commitment but does not speak about job outturn. It is the outturn that is relevant and important.

Political considerations play a major part in bilateral aid programmes. We must get away from bilateral aid programmes as far as is possible and get involved in multilateral aid programmes where there is proper control. In general, multilateral aid programmes are best. I do feel that the programmes that Ireland, on a bilateral basis has gone into in Lesotho and other places have been important. I still feel that we should not be tied into aid programmes which have a political economic connotation. Generally speaking multilateral schemes have impartiality and expertise to affect these programmes. Aid should be given in the interests of the receiver and not the giver. The aid should not be tied to the purchasing of goods from the donor country. That prevents the recipient from getting the best bargain for his money and reinforces his trade dependance on the donor. This is happening to a large degree throughout the world at present.

Aid should be given, generally speaking, in the terms of an outright grant and not as a loan. An enormous amount of the problems of Third World countries has arisen because of aid being given in terms of loans which because of the strengthening of the dollar, as Senator Higgins, again, said, has meant that the recipient countries have not been able to pay back even the interest on their loans. In the past repayment of loans took over 23 per cent of the total aid, and this is a continuum. The worst offenders in the giving of aid through the sale of goods were the United States, Britain and France. All but 60 per cent of their aid was tied to economic transfers. Belgium, Canada and the Netherlands were the next in line in terms of their "aid" which was tied to the transfer of goods and the crop taking and the loans which were associated with giving these goods. Tied aid is little better than a disguised subsidy. It is an instrument for furtherance of national self-interest, and this has to be taken into account.

It is not proper within the confines of this debate to develop on the political makeup of the varying countries and the effect that this has on the economy of these countries. It is necessary to say that economic reform is difficult without political reform and political reform is difficult without economic reform. The two must go forward hand in hand in the same way that political and economic privilege have done. Often the Third World government is unstable and liable towards civil strife, and sometimes the deprivation of liberty is added to other deprivations. The problem of instability caused by outside interference has been immense and the damage done by colonialists has been enormous.

As an instance, the Spanish and the Portuguese divided up Latin America between them, roughly following a line fixed by a Pope who had never set foot on the continent. Arbitrary carve-ups like that have been made right throughout Asia, Africa and the Latin Americas. The problem that is closest to us is the problem of the Middle East. Even this problem was bequeathed to us by the British. When they were ruling Palestine under a League of Nations mandate they decided that they would provide a national home for the Jewish people who were hounded out of Europe by Europeans. The Palestinians were hounded out of Palestine by the imposed people from Europe, and this imposition of people from outside has been the cause of much of the world's disorder.

The scope of this debate is enormous and could not be encompassed into a very short period of time. We have to try to get across to people that the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries is an important committee. The problems of developing countries have widespread connotations in our search for world peace, world order, and in our efforts to get some reality into what is considered to be a hopeful life for a hopeful people.

The report by the Minister for Foreign Affairs should be weighed up against the report from the Oireachtas Joint Committee. I cannot see why we get a glossy from the Department of Foreign Affairs. It is no more than a report. It must have cost a lot more than the report of the joint committee, and we may be splitting hairs when we relate the two. The report from the joint committee is of as much importance as the report from the Department of Foreign Affairs. I cannot see why we have a glossy from one and a stapled copy from the other. A stapled copy would be sufficient, and it gets back to the tarting up job. There is no need for tarting up if we are talking about assistance, if we are talking about our recognition that there are problems in the world. The words and the pictures do themselves justice without the tarting up that unfortunately many semi-State and State bodies get involved in. When one looks at the productions of semi-State and State bodies in terms of their annual reports they would seem to be the reports of companies which were making millions of pounds and not taking from the taxpayer. The Department of Foreign Affairs should not allow itself in future to do this sort of thing.

I would like to pay a compliment to Minister O'Keeffe. Yesterday I was not very complimentary to Ministers in this House but we must pay a compliment to him for the diligence with which he has worked with the NGOs, with the various agencies and voluntary bodies which are involved in assisting people who are in trouble. The people in his Department are attempting to bring us into the mainstream of aid in the best sense of the word. I would like to pay a compliment to himself and to those people.

This is a wideranging discussion, and I have listened with interest to the other speakers who have addressed themselves in one way or another to the motion before the House this morning. I welcome the report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries. It has addressed itself to a subject which is the most important single issue facing the international community, that is the issue of development aid. Now having listened to Senator Lanigan and Senator Higgins it is obvious that it is a wide subject, and one could speak forever on the various aspects of development co-operation.

Having listened to Senator Lanigan and Senator Higgins it is obvious that this is a wide subject. One could speak forever on various aspects of development co-operation. The committee in its deliberations made a very wise decision. It decided to confine itself to the discussion of three particular topics, namely, Irish official development assistance, European surpluses and Third World deficits and the interests of returned development workers. In a very cogent and pertinent manner it dealt with the three topics. Broadly speaking, in my contribution this morning, I intend to confine myself to consideration of each of these three matters covered in the report.

While these three themes predominated, the committee members during the year under consideration — 1984 — did not solely confine themselves to them. They also raised questions of a more specific, current or topical interest in their deliberations. Such areas were not, in fact, excluded. Yesterday I was very pleased to be invited by members of the committee to attend a meeting with the Dunnes Stores' strikers. The committee felt that since these young people bravely and courageously had decided to protest on a matter of principle concerning the Third World, namely, the struggle against apartheid it should meet them. These young people bravely and courageously took a stand on a matter of conscience in relation to their work place. The committee felt it was important that they should meet those young people and discuss with them the whole issue of apartheid and the issue of principle in relation to the right of conscience in the work place. The committee has an important function on a day-to-day basis in relation to current events and it demonstrated that at its meeting yesterday.

The committee was reconstituted in 1983 and went about its business in the way that many committees do. It sought submissions from the general public by way of placing public advertisements in major newspapers. This resulted in obtaining some 22 submissions. A summary of them is contained in Annex III of the report. They made very interesting reading. There were so many subjects raised by those who made submissions that it was very tempting to follow them up and not concentrate on the job in hand, that of considering the report.

Virtually all the submissions were unanimous in agreeing on the importance of the joint committee and, indeed, on the significance of having designated a Minister of State with special responsibility in the area of development co-operation. I must contrast that with the attitude of the then Taoiseach in 1982 who abolished this Ministry, called it superfluous and supernumerary and was also responsible for the withering of the all-party committee. That was a mistake, and I was very pleased to have heard Senator Lanigan in his contribution this morning speak about the value of the Ministry.

If we are going to speak about this report and have a reasonable debate on the problems in Third World countries we should not get into political acrimony.

I do not intend to get into the area of political acrimony, but these are facts. If Senator Lanigan does not like these facts. I am sorry but it will not deter me from referring to them in my speech. The fact is that the Ministry was declared to be superfluous and supernumerary and the fact is that the all-party committee which was lavishly praised this morning by Senator Lanigan was abolished. It is a great pity that happened and, in the light of public interest in development matters, I do not think such a lamentable decision will be made again if the opportunity is ever given to the person who made that decision to so make it on another occasion.

The submissions were also unanimous in agreeing that there was value in having development matters debated in both Houses of the Oireachtas as a measure of drawing public attention to development matters. That is a point with which I absolutely concur. Although there are quite a number of empty seats here this morning, nevertheless, we are grateful to the press who I hope will report this debate at great length in order to enable the public to continue focussing on these matters. That is necessary and important. I am sure today's debate will be a further contribution to that end. Indeed, I look forward to hearing other speakers make their contributions.

I must be a little carping on the matter of submissions. There was something rather curious about the way in which they were presented in the report. They were all sent in by individuals or groups but, unfortunately, a decision appears to have been made not to specifically credit them to the individuals or groups who took the trouble to send submissions to the committee. In Annex III references are made to a political party and there follows what that party said. References are made to "a State-sponsored body" or "three NGOs" said this or "eight NGOs" said the other. On reading the report I found this mildly irritating. It is a rather coy approach to have adopted. I could quite understand it in the area of the all-party Committee on Marital Breakdown of which the Leas-Chathaoirleach and myself were members. There was a reason for anonymity by the very nature of the subject matter which we were discussing, but in the area of development co-operation I fail to understand why this quasi-anonymous approach should have been adopted. I wanted to know which State-sponsored body had expressed a particular view. It was not too difficult for me to ascertain which political party had expressed a particular view. I also wanted to know which of the NGOs felt this way and which of the NGOs felt the other way. It may not be possible for the Minister, who, perhaps, was not directly connected with the report to reply on that matter but may be he can be advised as to why that decision was taken. I found it of interest. I imagine that those who sent in submissions did not seek anonymity and I see no reason why they should have. It would have been more comprehensive had they been credited with their particular contributions. Despite that small criticism I found the section as I have stated, thought provoking.

The first element in the report covered official development assistance. My own preference, I must admit, in the context of the Irish contribution would be for a far faster rate of growth on ODA but it is very necessary to give credit where credit is due for what has been achieved to date and also to take note of the very real constraints that operate now and, most likely, will continue to operate in this area.

Since the programme of official development assistance was established in 1974, the increase in real inflation-adjusted terms was five-fold. The increase in the share of ODA in Government expenditure has also been impressive. This improving trend may be contrasted with the trend in the main donor countries versus those in the development assistance committee of the OECD. In 1974, Irish official development assistance, expressed as a percentage of GNP, was only 14 per cent of the performance of DAC countries generally. By 1984, this figure had risen to 64 per cent. It is churlish to deny the progress and achievements implied by this figure.

In the context of the national plan, Building on Reality, it is necessary to recognise the very positive aspects of the provisions which are contained therein. There is a commitment, for the first time ever, of a guaranteed level of funding for a number of years into the future, and this has the effect of providing a very stable framework for planning. It is vital in the context of development work that there should be such a stable framework. Projects in the past have suffered from stop-start funding, and those who have been in charge of them have been overwhelmed by the insecurity of not knowing whether the funding was going to come on stream. All those concerned with development co-operation matters will appreciate this point. For the first time ever they can actually plan their activities for three years ahead in the very certain knowledge that a known level of finance will be forthcoming. The importance of this is appreciated by those with an interest in the efficiency of the programmes concerned, if not by those concerned about spending for its own sake and about targeting for the sake of targeting. I should like to add that the rate of growth planned for ODA is three and a half times faster than that planned for public spending generally. I have no hesitation in predicting that at the end of the planned period, in 1987, Ireland will have further closed this gap in donor countries generally.

It is necessary to state — Senator Lanigan may not like it but I will state it nevertheless — that a constructive approach by Ireland is possible because the Government in office have taken the decision set out in the plan, even if some of us would have wished to have seen provision made for a faster rate of growth in official development assistance. I subscribe to the view expressed in the report under consideration this morning, that the relatively slow rate of growth achieved to date under various Governments is a matter for regret and that it would have been preferable to have implemented the target rate of growth accepted by all political parties here, 0.05 per cent of GNP per year.

However, it is necessary, at the same time, not to close our eyes to the constraints which exist and which have made Ireland both a late and a relatively slow starter as regards the provision of aid to developing countries. We must not ignore the fact that Ireland is a poor country compared to other aid donors. For example, the income per head in Ireland is only about one-third that of Switzerland and, in addition, we all know that the burden on the Irish taxpayer is particularly high because of the unusually high dependency ratio we have and the very narrow tax base. Yet, Ireland gives about the same proportion of GNP as ODA as does Switzerland. Moreover, the absence of historical links, and the limited commercial links, have made for a limited constituency within Ireland in favour of increased aid. Furthermore, the public attitude towards aid is ambivalent and uncertain. If one views it in isolation most people seem to wish to give more and wish to feel that the level of our ODA should be increased but, at the same time, people are constantly clamouring for increased resources and for increased expenditure on social purposes within Ireland. They want job creation or they want increased private consumption via restricted taxation.

A recent Europe-wide survey of public opinion found that Irish people favour assistance to developing countries but they also give a higher priority to other concerns. While we may reach a conclusion based on the outpouring of generosity and concern expressed by the Irish people in the context of the Ethiopian famine, nevertheless, on closer examination it appears that we wish at the same time to have so many other things for ourselves. Of course, anybody who analyses this situation knows that it really is not possible, given our limited resources, to deliver on two fronts. I am sure many politicians would agree on this analysis and assessment based on what is said to them by their constituents.

However, notwithstanding these considerations I share the view expressed in this report by the all-party committee, that public support would be forthcoming for increased relative priority for development assistance in public spending I will do all in my power to see that this is so. In this regard it may be that the public are ahead of the politicians in this area. Perhaps we, as politicians, should place the challenge of the choice before the public so that their feeling is not purely an emotive one but that it is based on a valid assessment of the situation. It is true to say that there has been a great upwelling of public emotion over the past year because of the televising of the most pitiful pictures from Ethiopia. Reports indicate that this famine is getting under way again and that we are going to be faced with further horror and deprivation and suffering coming from the sub-Saharan area of Africa as the months go on.

It is necessary to build here a constituency for development, but to do that it is not much good merely preaching to the converted. It is necessary to adopt the approach I have suggested of putting the issues fairly and squarely before the people in order to broaden the base of support for this constituency. Commitment, which is vital if we are to make progress in this area, must be based on a real knowledge of the problem and on a most realistic appraisal of what may be possible to achieve. Advertising campaigns which offer miracle solutions, and the type of shock-horror exposes to which we are subjected, rather do a disservice in the long term to the goal of development aid while they may in the short term increase the flow of finance to alleviate the hunger. What, in fact, is needed is an increasingly sophisticated attitude on the part of the public and we, as politicians, have a duty to inform the public and assist all the groups and organisations who have concern and interest in this area.

The second part of the report deals with developing countries' food deficit and EC food surpluses. The attention of the world was focused on this dilemma during the Ethiopian famine. It happened that we held the Presidency of the EC at that time and so, correctly, pressure was brought to bear on the Government, and all politicians, to see what could be done to share what we had by way of food, butter mountains, milk lakes, the largess and the bounty we had in the West, with those who were starving in Africa.

Many people who had barely considered this whole matter before were struck by this very obvious anomaly in the distinction between the haves and the have nots. The question was raised as to how it would be possible to transfer resources. That was talked about and debated. The whole problem was seen to have moral as well as political dimensions. The moral dimensions of it were at once clear and obvious but the political dimensions of the transfer of resources and equity were where the difficulties lay. People, in general, had a more simplistic approach towards it, and they felt that it should be possible to get the act together, to get things right and to ensure a bit more equity and a bit more sharing.

A very significant amount of food aid is given to developing countries by the European Community. It has been explained that there are limits to what can be done because of the budgetary constraints which operate within the Community. Even though intervention stocks belong to the Community, the arrangement is that the money to buy them in the first instance is provided by the intervention agencies in the various member states. This is not reimbursed until the stocks are eventually disposed of out of intervention. Thus, if additional food aid was to be provided, it would be necessary to increase the Community budget for this purpose. This did not seem to be possible on an extensive scale because the limit to the Community's own resources had been reached and it would be necessary for member states to agree increased rates of VAT transfers if it was desired to increase the available own resources. The only conceivable way of evading this difficulty would be to change the rules so that either the intervention agency would forego payment when releasing the stocks from intervention — this would require additional funding from national budgets to the intervention agencies — or for the producers to make the products available at no charge. Neither of these approaches was thought to be feasible or practical.

Proposals have been made, one in particular by Deputy Nora Owen who so ably chaired this committee, that consideration should be given to financing the purchase of stocks from intervention by the imposition of a special levy for this purpose on the production of the products concerned. No scheme is without flaws, and this is no exception. It could, perhaps, be found on examination that in the case of this proposal the benefits outweigh the difficulties and that ways could be found of containing the difficulties.

It is true to say that despite all the controversy which surrounds food aid and milk products — food aid in particular — all competent analyses conclude that it can be integrated satisfactorily into development programmes, and that the potential disincentive effect to local production can be avoided provided it is properly handled, and that in the case of famines it is useful. I found this section of the report thought provoking and I feel, indeed, that there is subject there for a whole debate in this House on another occasion.

The third element in the report was one which I feel strongly about. It dealt with the protection of development workers. I am glad that the committee, in selecting its items for consideration, choose to pay attention to the interests of development workers. It is true to say that in the last decade or so there has been a marked increase in the numbers of people who have wished to work overseas on assignments either as volunteers or as skilled technical advisors in an employment capacity. The effectiveness of using highly motivated volunteers is without question and it is, as the report correctly states, a distinctively and wholly Irish commitment. Indeed, it is one of which we should be justifiably proud.

It is reasonable to assume that given the underlying aid of expansion in the bilateral aid programme during the period of the plan, 1985-87, there will be a marked increase in the numbers of people who will wish to work overseas as development workers. They may be connected to voluntary agencies, they may be sent out through APSO, which does most valuable work, or through the bilateral aid programme. I should like to express my profound admiration and respect for such people, particularly I have a soft spot for the volunteers who give what is perhaps the most difficult gift of all to give, they give the gift of self to those who are most in need. I must enter a caveat here, because we must be very careful in times of high unemployment in the Western world that we do not have people presenting themselves who, while technically or professionally qualified, lack the essential ingredients of correct motivation and sincere commitment to the task in hand, the sort of “when we 's” of Senator Higgins's contribution and the strange migratory tribe of the tarted-up tourist to which he referred. There is a risk at a time of deep recession and high unemployment here that that body of people could swell. Knowing something about their impact or, indeed, lack of it in a Third World context I feel it is a danger we should be aware of.

However, I am at the same time confident that experienced agencies such as Concern, Trócaire or APSO, for example, will bear this in mind, are aware that this is a likely pitfall and that they will allow their already most effective screening programmes to reflect this difficulty and this possible development. In former times it was true to say that our development workers were in the main religious, priests, nuns and brothers, and when their stint or tour of duty in a developing country came to an end and they returned to Ireland they were very cushioned against the realities of life. In a sense they fell back into a safety net, one of the community to which they belonged, one of secure employment, emotional security. They had a continuity in their lives. They had a friendship and a shared experience with those other members of their community who had, perhaps, also served in Third World countries. We must contrast this with today's development workers who return to this country having spent two or three years working on a project overseas. These people generally suffer from what can only be described as a sort of reverse culture shock when they re-enter this orbit. They suffer from cultural, social, emotional and, more practically I suppose, financial and job difficulties.

These are all elements which tend to come together at a time when they are perhaps most vulnerable. The resettlement allowance is generally fairly quickly sucked up by the demands of day to day living. A volunteer who returns to this country at the moment — I think the situation is about to change — is not entitled to unemployment benefit but the person is means tested for unemployment assistance. That is assessed on the value of benefit attached to living with family, relatives or friends. There are no clear-cut guidelines and the discretion of the local welfare officer is, at the end of the day, very often the deciding factor. This upheaval and trauma in people's lives can cause great unhappiness and alienation. It has generally been recognised that much of a supportive nature needs to be done in this area. In fact, Comhlámh, the association of returned development workers, has published a comprehensive study and made some very cogent recommendations in relation to the protection of the interests of development workers. The Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries took this report of Comhlámh, read it, studied it, analysed it and discussed it. In fact, it acted on a number of the recommendations contained in the report.

Having served on an all-party committee, perhaps a more contentious one, I am aware that these committees are viewed by the public as being toothless wonders, talk-shops, ones which, in fact, very rarely manage to achieve anything, but in the case of the committee which is the one under discussion — I am prepared to defend the marital committee any time, any place, any day — the criticism is not justified because I have been given to understand that regulations crediting contributions for a period spent abroad to cover unemployment, sickness, dental and optical benefits are expected to be signed shortly by the Minister for Social Welfare. The slight delay and the hiccup in the proceedings is caused by a difficulty in relation to a small legal or technical difficulty. It is anticipated that this will be cleared up shortly and that these regulations, which will give statutory protection to development workers, will be in force. It is to the credit of this committee, which pushed this issue and brought it to its almost conclusion. I congratulate and commend the committee for this development.

A regulation applying occupational injury benefit inclusive of parasitic and infectious diseases and diseases non-endemic in Ireland to the working period abroad was put into effect on 9 April 1985, that is regulation 102 of 1985. That is another feather in the cap of this committee, who pushed for this recommendation to be brought into legislative force.

APSO are co-operating with the Department in tracing returned volunteers so that these benefits can be applied to them. That is a very necessary and very practical step. It would be no harm if this aspect of the debate was highlighted so that volunteers who were not aware of their entitlements were made so aware.

The committee took upon itself to examine the attitude of employers in both the public and private sectors regarding the assignment and release of personnel to undertake development work in the Third World countries. The committee found that considerable constraints applied in both the public and the private sectors despite a growing awareness and a general feeling of goodwill in this area. Difficulties were encountered in obtaining leave of absence, and the conditions attached to this often made it difficult for individuals to take up posts overseas. The main issues which the committee examined were special leave of absence, and tenure of employment, social welfare provisions, pension rights and incremental credit and provisions for health and personal insurance.

In the Public Service it was found that the one in three embargo was a disincentive. However, I note with considerable satisfaction that the Minister for the Public Service has decided to regard posts vacated by civil servants taking up development assignments overseas as fillable vacancies. This is a tremendous fillip in the area of encouraging civil servants to go overseas, to enlarge their range of experience and to make contributions to Third World projects. This has the net effect of facilitating departments to release people and it generally encourages civil servants to consider this option.

The private sector is more difficult to get mobile in this area. It should be encouraged to maintain a positive approach to the leave applications which may come before it from time to time from employees. I feel that exchange approaches could be explored. These would be mutually beneficial, they would be culturally enriching and professionally rewarding. It is an area that groups in the private sector could take up and explore.

The Minister for Labour has stated to the committee that a draft Community instrument was being prepared on the subject of increasing the level of protection to volunteer development workers. I notice in The Irish Times of 22 April in a report by Denis Kennedy that a Euro MEP, Mrs. Mary Banotti, has taken up this whole area in the European Parliament. The proposal is that volunteer workers in development overseas will be granted all social security and health benefits available to workers at home. It is at present in the form of a recommendation and not, as some people would wish to see, as a binding directive. Nevertheless there is movement in the European forum on this area. It is rather nice to see that for once we are somewhat ahead in the proposals and regulations which I have spoken of, that we are not waiting for Europe to issue a recommendation to us, that because we have so many development workers overseas we have taken the initiative and we have introduced regulations which will afford them protection as a result of their taking work up overseas.

The draft recommendation which is due to go before the Council of Ministers in Europe urges that all volunteer development workers and their families will be covered by the social security legislation of their home countries during their preparation for service overseas and their time abroad. They will qualify for the whole range of benefits, health care, sickness, maternity, invalidity right down to unemployment pay after their return. The recommendations from Europe also want tropical diseases, to which volunteers are understandably exposed, to be regarded as occupational diseases allowing volunteers who fall victim to them to qualify for compensation under occupational disease legislation at home. It has been the experience of returned development workers to find themselves excluded from unemployment and health benefits. It is important to back this type of recommendation and to give every encouragement to the regulations which we are implementing at home because it gives practical acknowledgment to the valuable work being done by volunteers in the field.

I will conclude by saying that this report is to be welcomed. It will provide a further stimulus for education in development matters and for continuing debate and discussion. I compliment Mr. Martin Greene, clerk to the committee, for all that he has done. I congratulate committee members who have spent hours of painstaking work examining the issues, compiling and collating this report and bringing it to our attention. I am pleased to see that the Minister of State with special responsibility for this area is with us and I look forward to his comments in the matter. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for the opportunity of adding my few words to this subject.

I may have my occasional disagreements with the Minister of State on issues of policy but I have ample evidence of his commitment and efforts and of progress being made. I can testify that his visits in at least one of the priority countries were well received by the volunteers and the Irish workers who were there and people were impressed with his efforts, with his commitment and with the knowledge that both himself and his wife brought to it. They were convinced that his presence there was of value to them and would be reflected in a greater understanding of their commitment and work there. That was in Tanzania where I had the good fortune to be relatively soon after the Minister's visit. I congratulate him on surviving what I understand was a rather hair-raising take off from a landing strip in Tanzania. I am very glad he survived it. I do not know how it would go down in west Cork if a Deputy from west Cork was known to have been lost aborad a plane in the middle of Tanzania. Whether it would have produced a sympathy vote for the subsequent candidate I do not know. I know the Minister's commitment is intense and extensive and I congratulate him on it.

I want to make it clear that I am a member of this committee but the report of the committee is, as the nature of any report on such an enormous issue would have to be, selective on the issues that it chooses. It is written into our terms of reference that the committee choose such aspects of the area of development co-operation as they think fit.

That is only right because we could not really address, with any success or to any useful purpose, the global problem of underdevelopment in its entirety in a way which would not either produce a report which would probably be 2,000 pages long or else would be couched in such generalities as to be entirely useless.

The report is a credit to all the members of different political groups, political organisations and political parties. The report raises in fairly blunt terms the issue of the scale of our overseas development aid, particularly the vulnerability of our bilateral aid programme to any changes in Government policy on the issue of overseas aid. This is something I did not appreciate until I became a member of the committee and began to read up on the fact that it is the bilateral element of our aid programme which is most vulnerable to changes in Government policy because the multilateral element is not susceptible to change and, therefore, if there is a change or a reduction in the level of overseas development aid, the bilateral aid programme suffers. I had some eloquent testimony from a number of people who have been involved in development aid about the rather difficult position when Governments decided to cut back on aid and the bilateral aid programme was reduced to a trickle of small sums of money.

The committee were quite right in emphasising the value of long term commitments in the area of overseas development aid. I am glad that, whatever about the level of development aid, that the national plan gives a commitment at least until 1987. It will be very helpful if the possible alternative Government would commit themselves, in the event of coming to power to maintain at least that level of overseas development aid in the future, whatever about commitments to increase it. It would be very reassuring, it would enable planning to be made on the sort of timescale that is necessary. It is obvious that given the difficulties of communication, the difficulties of proper planning and the difficulties of the scale of the problem, solutions to the problem of underdevelopment are, of their nature, long term and, therefore, the resources that are required to implement those plans must confidently be expected to be available in the long term.

A form of bi-partisanship on the issue of overseas development aid, where we could be sure, irrespective of changes in Government in the next election or the election after that, would at least guarantee that the existing level of development aid would be preserved in any change in Government priorities which might result from a change of Government. Otherwise we have this looming gap, post 1987, where people working in the field in particular are stuck with a question mark as to whether they can plan beyond 1987 with any confidence that resources will be available. Things can become very difficult if a programme is half developed and then funds dry up. Therefore it would be very useful and it would be an easy commitment for the major Opposition party to make.

The issue of the scale of our overseas development aid is an entirely separate matter. There is nobody in either the Government parties or the Opposition party who would suggest that the scale of our overseas development aid is acceptable. Everybody accepts that it is too small. The issue is whether we can afford to increase it to any significant degree, beyond the commitment in the Government national plan. It would not be unexpected if I were to say that I believe it could be expanded beyond the present level of commitment. For somebody on this side of the House it would be rather naive to say otherwise.

Rather than just say that it can be done it is worth contrasting a few areas of expenditure. I identify in particular, because it relates to a world scandal, our level of expenditure in the area of what is called security, in other words, the two areas of justice and defence, which have increased in the order of 100 per cent in the last four years. I do not want to say that we do not need either a defence force or a security service. In the area of development aid, I believe, if a decision is to be made that we are not to achieve the minimal target set by international organisations, then all aspects of Government expenditure need to be critically scrutinised.

I identify defence because I think we are liable not because we need it, not because we have to do it, but because there is an escalation level of armaments production in the world, which is inflationary, highly expensive and which most senior officers of most defence forces will argue with great conviction is necessary for them to be effective. Because of that we can walk in to being part of the greatest scandal in the world today, which is the scandal of the frightening spiral in the arms race. Therefore, if we are to address ourselves to the question of whether we can afford an increased level of development aid then we must also address ourselves to the other side of the development question, the question of the world armaments race, in which we are, albeit unwittingly, a participant because there are many aspects of our defence expenditure, which are definitely unrelated to any threat, either internal or immediate external threat, which need to be scrutinised very carefully. I am preparing a detailed paper for the Committee on Public Expenditure on the whole area of defence expenditure and I will elaborate on these things in that.

I believe there is an obligation on us to look at every area of public expenditure. It is conceivable and arguable that there are a number of areas of expenditure which should be lower in our priorities than the question of development aid and which could enable us to move towards the target that we have on a number of occasions set for ourselves but which we have never really set in the context of a particular time to achieve the target. The deadline to achieve the target seems to be permanently in the less than immediate future.

Our committee can contribute to this question of what is the acceptable level of overseas development aid by increasing the awareness of the public at large about the appallingly low level of aid we have at present, by suggesting — this is where it becomes controversial and perhaps very difficult for an all party committee — alternative fundings or choices that could be made or, at least, beginning to start a debate about priorities in public expenditure and the relatively low priority given to development aid in terms of other areas of expenditure. It is a fact that expenditure in the area of justice will increase by 23 per cent over the period of the plan.

I do not believe that our expenditure on overseas development aid will expand by anything like the same percentage. Even if it did it would be a pathetically small sum by comparison with the actual absolute value of that sort of a scale of increase in a major spending Department. If we are to be really in earnest — the report makes this clear — about development then the real touchstone of our commitment is the scale of our expenditure on the issue. I would not like to suggest for one second that expenditure alone is a measure of aid, because there are complications associated with expenditure to do with tying expenditure to particular countries' projects.

It is one of the inequalities of Irish overseas development aid that we have not become involved to any great extent in attempting to tie our aid to the purchase of Irish products. It is a very worth-while and a very worldly decision and one that we should sustain. There are examples in many Third World countries of many areas of technology and equipment having to be bought from a donor country at a price which might be once or twice the price that could be paid by buying them from the cheapest possible source. Our committee have an obligation and a role to play in the level of heightening public awareness on the issue of the level of development aid that we are prepared to commit ourselves to. The committee have a great need to be heard on the issue and to be part of the development education programme.

The report goes on to talk about the problem of food deficits in certain areas in the world and it is not necessary for me to repeat the arguments here. It identifies the complexity of the argument. It presents a rational analysis of the difficulties involved in dealing with food deficits and the problems of the wrong sort of aid producing a further reduction in the scale of food production in many countries. It identifies the difficulties in increasing food aid from within the European Community. All of that is logical and rational, but let it be said that Irish public opinion is singularly unimpressed with some of the rational arguments about the reasons why larger food aid cannot be provided by the EC.

That could present a problem, because public generosity will not be sustained indefinitely if they believe that political leadership lacks the will or the commitment to use the existing resources to deal with the problem of starvation world wide. Rational analysis, as conducted in our report, can be seen either as a step towards the solution of the problem or as an excuse for inertia. Many people would suspect, particularly in the EC with Ministers who do not have a commitment to development aid, that the sort of logistical, financial and budgetary problems outlined in our report are not the real problems. The real problem is the lack of political will to deal with the other problems.

On the issue of dealing with food problems and the production of staple food internally in the countries where there are food deficits, the role of international financial institutions needs to be identified. There are emphases on the production of cash crops in order to improve the balance of payments difficulties of some countries, the almost sacrosant myth being perpetuated by certain international institutions that there are some kind of immutable economic laws that exist independent of humanity and which must be conformed to if any economy is to be brought into order, the unquestioned political role that many international financial institutions play, the countries that are targeted for the greatest pressures and the greatest criticisms. There can be questions about whether they are targeted because they have the greatest problems or because the structures of economic and social policy within the country are least acceptable in the eyes of international monetary funds.

Tanzania, which in terms of the ideology and the political perceptions which dominate the International Monetary Fund, is clearly unacceptable, is being put under the most enormous pressure, as the IMF would see it, to conform to acceptable principles or policies before support will be provided. I do not believe that the issue between the IMF and Tanzania is a matter of good housekeeping. If Tanzania had a different political and economic system, if it were not seen to be the symbol of resistance to the economic orthodoxies of the western world the pressures being imposed upon it would be quite different. It is very important that Ireland, as a member of the International Monetary Fund, does not get swept along in the crusade of economic orthodoxy which is extremely fashionable in the world today.

Economics is a servant of people, it is not some sort of blind force to which people conform or are crushed beneath it. The international financial institutions need to be reformed, as many of the structures and procedures for production of food in Third World countries need to be.

On the question of our returned development workers, as Senator Bulbulia said, the committee and the Government have moved quickly to deal with many of the legitimate grievances that they have had in the past. There is no doubt but that they had serious grievances. There seemed to be an inert resistance to the necessary regulatory and legislative changes to normalise their situation. The Government have acted quickly and are to be congratulated on it. I am happy that our committee had a role in helping to bring that about.

I hope their problems will be solved so that for people going from here to countries for development work and returning it will be part of a very smooth transition so that the idea of moving to developing countries and returning will be a normal part of Irish life where employers, public and private, and various other agencies, will accept this as a normal part of Irish life. Once that is done it would be a pity to assume that was the end of our concern for returned development workers.

They are one of the greatest resources we have in terms of policy development, education and of an independent feedback from outside the structures of aid. We should develop more and more formalised structures to hear the feedback from our development workers because they have a different role from the officials who are directly involved, however good they may be. They are an independent voice. They are separate from the structure of development aid and they have a lot of constructive comments to make. Some of them are quite distressed at the fact that after a few years in a developing country they come home full of ideas and constructive criticism and there is no formalised structure in many cases for them to transfer that information or those ideas back into the system.

There should be an organised systematic debriefing of anybody who has worked in a developing country in order to clarify perceptions, in order to clarify recruitment facilities in the future and in order to identify deficits in training for people working overseas. I am interested in advocating the principle of using what will be an expanding resource in this country, using the talents, skills and knowledge of returned development workers.

The report is, of necessity, selective but running through it are symptoms of the basic problem of under-development. The basic problem is not that people are rich and poor but that people are rich because other people are poor. There is a fundamental difference. We do not work for development because we are rich and they are poor. We work for development because it is just to work for development. Because the present structure of the world economic order is inherently unjust, we work for development. It is not charity; it is justice that is the motivating force for world development. We are rich because they are poor. There is a direct relationship between the relative wealth of the developed countries and the appalling poverty of the undeveloped countries. There is a structural injustice in the world which needs to be faced up to, which needs to be tackled. It will either be tackled because we choose to respond to it or it will be tackled because those who have nothing take from us that which we unjustly have. We have a chance to respond. It may take 50 years; it may take 100 years, but injustice is never perpetual, is never eternal; sooner or later it is dealt with. We are the beneficiaries of probably the most scandalous of all injustices, the injustice of a most inequitable world economic order.

I must say, because it would not represent the views of our committee, but it needs to be said, that part of the structural injustice is the economic system in which the western world has based itself and is apparently still basing its future, the concept of free enterprise in a market economy, usually described as capitalism, because that tends to concentrate resources in a minority at the expense of those who have no resources. Therefore, I would suggest that we face up to the basic fact that it is impossible to have a just world if the world is based on the idea of free market economic systems. At the end of it all, development is not just about letting people have a bit of food and a little education and clean water, though all those are important. As an aside on this slightly too political theme, on the whole area of development, the work of UNICEF — something of which I was unaware until recently — in dealing with infant mortality in the world at large is one of the most inspiring pieces of work I am aware of that is being done by an international agency. The simplicity of what they have done and yet the scale of the effectiveness of what they have done in reducing infant mortality is something that should be recognised much more widely. The ideals which they have should be propagated much more widely. A simple four point programme which is implementable with very little cost can have dramatic effect on infant mortality, simple things which have much more to do with education and with very limited resources than with huge commitments to enormous funds.

Nevertheless, all those things are most welcome. But at the end of it all, real development is synonymous with liberation, liberation from injustice, liberation from inequality, liberation from oppression. Development can only be successful when viewed in the context of liberation. There are extreme examples of the need for liberation, like South Africa, in which case our Government have an extremely good record. I welcome the Government's decision to recognise education on apartheid as part of the whole process of development education at home. It is a very worth-while extension of the concept of development in a very necessary area. It is patently true that in one of our priority countries, Lesotho, there cannot be real development until South Africa itself is liberated. The simple example put to us when we were there was the fact that however much you train native Lesotho people to take over areas of responsibility, all their business dealings will be with South Africa. Because they are black, if they deal with South Africa they are inevitably at such a profound disadvantage that they will never be able to deal as equals. Therefore, if a small country like that is to develop the first pre-requisite is liberation in South Africa. But that is also true globally. That is why our support for a small country such as Nicaragua is so important.

Nicaragua has identified and demonstrated the value of liberation in the development process. They demonstrated how much can be done, even with limited resources, once a people are liberated and perceive themselves to be liberated. That is why Nicaragua has become such an inspiration to so many other countries, because their liberation has been so successful. That is why Nicaragua is detested in certain areas, because they are a symbol of liberation, not because they are a symbol of communism or of Marxism or anything else. That is what development is about. Development, however, cannot wait, and this is where I share very little with many of the people on the Left in politics, nationally and internationally. Development is not something that you can postpone until after the glorious day of liberation. Development is something immediate to do with the relief of human misery. What we are doing in this country and what we have done and the little bit that I have had the opportunity to see, is enormously impressive. The work being done by individuals is enormously impressive. I would have my criticisms of them in various areas. I would have reservations about some things; I would have comments to make. This is not the place to make them. We will make them as a group when we get down to talk about the whole issue. But what we are doing is worthwhile. The major regret is the inadequacy of the scale of our commitment, and that is a political decision which we as politicians must address ourselves to. It is also a question of public opinion.

The second theme of our development education has to be educating people to the scandal of armaments, because the thing most difficult to deal with in the world is the issue that, of course, we are all in favour of development but the world cannot afford it; we are in a recession. The one area of expenditure that has carried on merrily irrespective of recession or of any other problem has been the scandal of armaments expenditure. It will not be long until the world is spending approximately $1,000 billion a year on armaments. We will spend about 5 per cent of that on development. It is that fundamental issue that will determine whether development happens peacefully or, as will happen inevitably if it does not happen peacefully, violently.

I am not saying that the armaments scandal is simply a characteristic of the developed world; it is equally a characteristic of the under-developed world. If the world is prepared to shift resources out of weapons of death into instruments of life, then development can be achieved peacefully. If it is not achieved peacefully, then inevitably the structural injustices in the world would provide their own impetus, and that would be quite explosive.

I have enjoyed this debate hugely. The discussion today indicates that the debate on overseas aid and development has reached a new plain. I would not agree fully with all the views expressed. It is very healthy indeed that we do have this diversity of view. What is important is that fundamental issues in relation to aid and development are being addressed and that the Oireachtas is assuming its rightful role in contributing to the development of policy. I am further pleased that in this House and in the joint committee individual policy views are being expressed unconstrained by party political affiliation.

The aim which I had when I originally conceived the idea of the joint committee is in the process of being achieved. I want to see informed Oireachtas discussion and all-party commitment to Ireland's increasing aid programme. I would regard such an achievement as a major legacy of my tenure in office as Minister of State with special responsibility in this area.

There have been a number of expressions of regard and compliment for the staff of the joint committee and the officials in my Department. I acknowledge those and indicate that I share fully the high expressions of regard which have been offered in regard to the very small number at official level who have responsibility in this area and who have commitment and dedication which is an example to the rest of the public service.

While I am paying compliments I may also mention the members of the joint committee. I am pleased at the way in which they tackled the job and the developing commitment which is there on the part of the members of that committee. I would urge them to continue with that commitment and I have every confidence that the very valuable work they have been doing will, with a continuation of that commitment, have even greater impact in the development policy in this area in the future.

I am glad to have the opportunity once again of addressing this House on the important question of the situation of developing countries and the response of Ireland to that situation. The occasion of today's proceedings is the publication of the Report for 1984 of the Joint Committee on Co-operation with Developing Countries. The report represents a valuable contribution to public understanding and discussion of these questions and to the formulation of public policy. The members of the committee are to be congratulated for their good work. A particular strength of the report is that it is thoughtful, careful and balanced. These characteristics are most important to public discussion of issues concerned. Indeed the need for informed and balanced analysis of these issues will be a recurring theme in the remarks I intend to make today.

The report focuses on a number of important aspects of the situation of developing countries and of the way in which Ireland is involved in these matters. The particular questions examined are: first, the problems of developing countries because of insufficient food production and the possibility of using European surpluses to meet the shortfall; second, the financial aspects of Irish aid to developing countries; and, third, the need to remove disincentives to service in developing countries by Irish people. But the committee also outlined a general analysis of the background against which these particular questions must be viewed. This is a useful format. In addition to explaining the context in which the findings of its 1984 report should be considered, it also suggests worthwhile lines of inquiry for the committee's continuing work and provides an overall intellectual framework for the pursuit of those inquiries. My own remarks today will conform to the same pattern, by starting with certain aspects of the background situation and then proceeding to the particular issues highlighted by the committee.

The basic objective of development policy is quite simply that the people of the developing countries should not continue to be so miserably poor as they now are. The principle underlying this is that it is unacceptable, in terms of our common humanity, that huge numbers of people should have to endure abject poverty while others of us are more than adequately catered for, and while the means are available for improving the lot of the disadvantaged. Since compassion does not stop at national boundaries, those of us who live in relatively rich countries do what we can to support the people of the developing countries in their attempts to overcome their poverty. This is the purpose of international development co-operation.

Thus, the basis of development co-operation policy is philosophical. At the same time, its modus operandi must be exceedingly practical. This is because the intention is to bring about change in the real world for the benefit of ordinary women and men. In these circumstances, our compassionate intentions must be put into effect through a cool headed appraisal of the circumstance of developing countries, of the way in which national and international factors influence the prospects for improvement, and of the capacity and will of people in Ireland and other developed countries to contribute to the search for improvement.

The starting point must be an accurate assessment of the circumstances of developing countries. This must include the internal social and economic factors that influence the generation and distribution of income. It must also assess the influence of international economic factors. It must attempt to attach the correct weight to each factor, and to understand the dynamics. If we get the balance wrong, or if we fail to understand the dynamics properly, our interventions will be poorly designed.

It is understandable that those of us who live in developed countries will tend to concentrate our attention on international economic factors, and in particular on those aspects of them in which we ourselves are involved, since this is the level at which we can hope to exert some influence. But it is important that we should not exaggerate their importance. It would be ironic if, despite being basically motivated by the desire to help others, our analysis was lop-sided because of a tendency to see ourselves — or at any rate, developed countries generally — at the centre of events at all times.

We must be realistic also about our own capacity to influence events, and about the limits of our own selflessness. It is only by understanding the limitations that we can maximise the effectiveness of our policy and interventions.

In so far as the internal factors within developing countries are concerned, it is imperative that the analysis should be balanced. We must bring the same careful judgment to the problems of developing countries as we do to those in our own society. In general, when addressing issues in our own society, we are prepared to accept the need to accommodate a variety of views and interests. We are prepared to accept that the search for improvement must in some respects be a long-haul one; and that risks must not be lightly taken. We are prepared to accept second best solutions in the short term when first best ones cannot be achieved; and we learn to value incremental, gradual change. However strongly-held our own convictions are, we do not adopt an "all or nothing" approach; we are careful, as the cliché has it, not to "throw out the baby with the bath water".

In the case of the circumstances of developing countries, however, one sometimes gets the impression that much of the analysis made in developed countries is not based on a similarly careful approach. Such a tendency is perhaps understandable if it is based on impatience to bring about change for the better. But we must ask ourselves whether extreme analysis and excessively radical proposals for action are not likely, in reality, to do more harm than good. If we feel tempted to adopt extreme positions, we must ask ourselves whether our approach is based on a careful appraisal of what is likely to bring about real improvement in the actual conditions of developing countries, or whether we are indulging in a desire to engage in social experimentation of a sort that we would not dare to propose in relation to our own society — experimentation that may, moreover, be based on theories that may in some cases be personal ones that have little enough to do with the reality of life in developing countries. In this respect, it would be ironic if our approach towards the developing countries, though basically motivated by the instinctive sympathy for their poverty-stricken people, were to become, in reality, both condescending and inconsiderate towards those people, by analysing their situation in terms of our own personal theories, and by expecting them to take risks that would be thought unacceptable in our own society. In short, we must ask ourselves whether we are not being selfindulgent or arrogant.

As against this, it may be felt that when informing public opinion in developed countries about developing countries, their circumstances must be, if not quite subjected to extremist analysis, at least sharply drawn, if the interest of the general public is to be attracted, and if support is to be generated for policies and actions in support of developing countries. I believe that this view is mistaken. In the first place, it underestimates the ability of the Irish public to take a sophisticated view of the way the world works. In my opinion, public opinion can be persuaded to support policies and actions that are supportive of development on the basis of a purely factual description of the situation in developing countries, and on the basis of compassionate considerations, together with arguments to do with the benefits that Ireland and other developed countries will derive from the contribution to international stability and trade that will result from development in the Third World. This is not to say that a widespread and strong commitment will be built up quickly. After all, the Irish people are both remote from circumstances of the Third World and best by problems of their own. For this reason, the building up of a constituency for development in this country may be a gradual process. But I believe that an extensive and strong commitment can be built up if the job is approached sensibly on the basis of a balanced analysis of circumstances in the Third World. A commitment developed in this way will be soundly based and will endure. On the other hand, if an attempt is made to establish a commitment on the basis of a caricatured description of the circumstances of developing countries, it will not be soundly based and surely will not endure.

Persons whose interest is attracted on this basis may not understand or be supportive of measures to achieve gradual improvement; and they may lose interest altogether when it becomes clear that dramatic improvement in the short term is simply not achievable. Moreover, many people of moderate views are alienated by extremist analysis, with the result that any constituency based on that approach would be narrow and uninfluential — even though it might be a pleasant place to be for persons of that mind. Taking the long term view, it is important that the constituency in favour of development should be both broadly based and capable of being maintained over the long term while gradual improvement is brought about.

The foregoing invites consideration of what analysis of development underpins the Government's development co-operation policy. This cannot be dealt with comprehensively today because of time constraints. What I would propose to do instead is to discuss briefly one particular aspect of that analysis which is of interest in the present context. The aspect I have in mind is the nature and implications of the relationship between donor government and recipient government in the provision of development aid.

First, however, it should be said that there is not — and there could not be — any one analysis that could be accepted as being definitively "right" for all cases and in all circumstances. In the first place, present and past circumstances in any particular country are capable of being interpreted in different ways, even by people with a basically sympathetic attitude towards developing countries. Moreover, in so far as strategies for change are concerned, these depend on assumptions about how people and institutions will react to future events; and even reasonable and well-informed people may be disposed to make different assumptions. Furthermore, in view of the great disparities in conditions among developing countries, local social and economic conditions must always be taken into account; and elements of various schools of analysis may well have application in any one case. Thus, while it is important that the dynamics of economic and social change in all countries should be studied and compared so that one's general approach is as well informed as it is possible to be, it is vital that one's general approach should be based on actual observation rather than preconceived ideas, and that particular prescriptions should be based on particular examinations rather than on ideology of any variety.

Turning now to the role of aid, it is interesting to recall that one of the old over-simplifications postulated a paternalistic role for people of goodwill in developed countries vis-a-vis those in developing countries. It was assumed that assistance from outside represented a missing ingredient, the provision of which would facilitate development. The social and economic dynamic within the developing countries — including the role of governments — scarcely entered into the consideration. This was, of course, a gross misrepresentation of the forces at work. The subsequent falling from fashion of this view is therefore to be regarded as a positive development. At the same time, care must be taken that the movement away from this view does not itself fly off on a tangent, resulting in the acceptance of a new — and equally wrong — over-simplification. One sometimes thinks there is a danger that this could happen. The impression is sometimes given that pervasive social injustice is always and everywhere in the Third World the binding constraint to development. In particular, governments are pilloried as being self-serving and repressive and unconcerned about the welfare of their people.

The truth, of course, is less sensational, not to say less newsworthy. In many cases, governments are struggling to manage social and economic circumstances that are well-nigh unmanageable. They may have difficulty in acting against powerful interest groups even if it would be in the national interest to do so — a circumstance that is not unknown in developed countries also. They may be obliged to compromise, or to proceed by stealth. They may feel they cannot allow "the best to be the enemy of the good"; that second-best solutions must be accepted if that is all that realistically can be achieved. They may have to accept the necessity of taking one step backwards in order to take two forward. And, in such circumstances, such a government may be very well equipped to achieve worthwhile progress, whereas a head-on approach based on an "all-or-nothing" attitude might achieve nothing at all.

If the objective of development co-operation is to effect change in the real world for the benefit of ordinary people, it may make sense to assist such a government in their efforts. That may be the case even if one could not agree with all aspects of the policy of that government and even if the system by which governments are appointed to office in the country concerned is not similar to the one inherited by this State at independence. Similarly, it may make sense for the government of that country to accept assistance from a donor government even if they could not agree with some of the policies of the donor government and if they had reservations or doubts about the motivation of the donor government in offering the assistance.

In such circumstances, it may be perfectly possible to develop a worth-while and effective development co-operation policy between the two governments even if neither side would wish to endorse all the policies and practices of the other. Of course, there must be a certain minimum level of mutual approval at a general level in the case of such co-operation. It is not difficult to think of circumstances in which one government would be unwilling to do business at all with another. But this degree of antipathy is unlikely to exist in many cases; the more common experience is that governments will feel able to do business with one another even if neither one would wish to endorse all the policies of the other.

In the case of development aid, it is also necessary for the governments concerned to agree on the specific areas of co-operation, or projects. In this regard, the recipient government will wish to ensure that any project decided upon fits in with their development strategy; and this concern will usually be shared by the donor government. For their part, the donor government will wish to ensure that the project concerned is efficient in the sense that it earns a return on the investment. The donor will also wish to assess the distributional effects, both direct and indirect, of the intervention. Usually, the donor will wish to establish that the benefits, direct and indirect, accrue to less well-off people, and that the intervention is part of a general strategy that also benefits mainly less well-off people.

However, it is not necessarily easy to assess the complex interactions that arise in the case of even a straightforward project. On the one hand, the prospects of any project succeeding are strongly influenced by the general environment in which it exists, including in particular the effectiveness of the recipient government's policies and the efficiency of their services. On the other hand, if the project succeeds and national output increases as a consequence, it may be difficult to determine precisely the distribution of benefits. It will usually be possible to identify the direct beneficiaries — those who benefit by employment opportunities or enhanced earning power. The government will usually also benefit directly from increased tax revenue or a balance of payments improvement. Even in exceptional cases, however, the benefits accruing to the recipient government will not be of any strategic value to the government concerned. In addition, indirect effects may be more important, and these can be exceptionally difficult to trace. For example, the ultimate effect of increased tax revenue will depend on how the government concerned use the money. The fact that aid finance is available for a particular type of project may attract the recipient government's resources into the same sector for complementary activities; or it may equally well permit the recipient government to divert some of their own resources from that particular sector to some other purpose. And the ultimate effect of enhanced earning power for a particular group depends on the pattern of consumption and saving of that particular group — and so on. Further, many projects — for example, in the infrastructure sector — are essentially intermediate inputs to the general development process.

I have thought it worth-while to go into the mechanics of the aid relationship not because there is anything extraordinary about it but because it is often misunderstood. It is sometimes said, for example that "aid only benefits the rich" or that "aid should be directed only to the poorest". Another comment that is sometimes made is that aid had the effect of sustaining the recipient government in office; and such governments are sometimes described as "repressive". While most people would agree that the poor should benefit most from aid, and while this is certainly the aim in the case of aid from Ireland, I hope I have shown that the process involved should not be oversimplified, but that it is usually possible to establish a satisfactory basis for providing aid.

I hope particularly that I have shown that the role of governments in developing countries should be considered in a balanced way. In particular, there is a need to ensure that the old over-simplification which ignored the role of power relations within developing countries is not replaced by a new over-simplification, the effect of which is to convince people that gradualist solutions are not possible in developing countries because of unjust power structures. The main difficulty about this new over-simplification is that it could undermine support in developed countries for measures which involve the governments of developing countries. To the extent that this resulted in more contributions from the public to non-governmental organisations (NGOs), this might not matter. But to the extent that it undermined support for official measures — in terms both of official development aid and trade concessions — this would be most unfortunate given that NGOs have limited implementation capacity, that certain kinds of essential development projects can only be implemented at the level of central government, and that an improved trade position is essential if developing countries are to make progress towards sustainable economic improvement.

I hope that these general remarks about the aid relationship will be of interest to the committee in the context of their work programme for the current year which, I understand, focuses on the Irish aid programme. But of course aid is only one aspect of development co-operation. Before concluding, therefore, I should like to say some words on the Irish approach to development co-operation generally, albeit with the emphasis on aid and other matters dealt with in the joint committee's report.

Both developed and developing countries participate in the world economy. All countries exert some influence on the international economic environment and are themselves influenced by it. As a group, the developing countries exert only quite limited influence over the international environment; but they are themselves powerfully influenced by it. The external environment has in general been inimical to the interests of many developing countries in recent years with declining terms of trade, high real interest rates, and volatile exchange rates. Of course, one should not exaggerate the influence of the external environment or suggest that the developing countries are powerless to help themselves because of external factors over which the developed countries have all the influence: developing countries with efficiently functioning internal economies, and which have responded to changes in the external environment, have fared well. Nevertheless, many countries have in the past few years taken steps — often quite painful ones — to improve the functioning of their internal economies but have gained little or nothing because of external factors over which they have no control. In these circumstances, it is to be regretted that the results of attempts to modify the international economic environment in the interests of developing countries have been relatively meagre. In addition, quite apart from positive interventions in the interests of developing countries, attempts to ensure that the developed countries, when determining their own economic policies, should check out those policies for possible unintended harmful side effects on developing countries, with the intention of avoiding such side effects, have met with only limited success.

Time does not allow these issues to be gone into in any depth today. The only point I would like to make is that this question, like those discussed earlier, should be approached in a balanced way. The image that is sometimes projected of governments of developed countries and international institutions acting with no regard for the interests of developing countries, or even in an intentionally hostile way, is unbalanced. I am sure everybody would agree with me on that. As in the case of the other examples of extremist analysis discussed earlier, the main trouble caused by this distorted image is that it may undermine public support for limited but achievable international initiatives. In circumstances in which the developing countries would gain significantly from an increase in the resources of the International Monetary Fund, for example, public opinion in developed countries — even on the part of those sections of opinion sympathetic to developing countries — may see no reason to support such a development if they have been told often that that organisation is unhelpful towards developing countries. In these circumstances, the statement that developing countries are bound to suffer because of unhelpful international institutions can take on the characteristics of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The governments of developed countries and the international institutions are, of course, not beyond criticism, but it is important that the criticism should be responsible and constructive; otherwise, it may be counter-productive.

Ireland's involvement in development co-operation in so far as trade and traderelated questions are concerned is determined in the context of our membership of the European Community: trade arrangements are made on behalf of the Community as a whole and individual member states cannot make their own arrangements with countries outside the Community, thus, our attitude is reflected in the direction of the influence that we exert on Community policy rather than in any direct initiatives. I would like to think that our influence has generally been in the direction of making the Community's trade policy more responsive to the interests of developing countries. However, the attitude to be adopted in any particular case must weigh not only the benefits to developing countries but also the costs to Ireland. The Joint Committee have rightly pointed out that the cost of trade concessions to developing countries falls to be met by a small section of the Community which is asked to pay a high price, as their jobs are put at risk. It is also the case that compared to other European countries Ireland depends heavily on jobs in industries that are threatened by low-cost imports from developing countries. Since this is the case, it might be thought that we have reason to exert a restrictive influence on Community policy-making in this area. On the other hand, protectionism imposes a cost on consumers in this country and on the economy generally. In addition, it can be questioned whether it is in our own interest in the long run to try to maintain jobs in particular industries that have ceased to be cost competitive by a costly policy of protectionism. Thus, there is scope for interpretation as to where our own interests lie. The question of how unselfish we would wish to be in terms of concessions to developing countries is a still more difficult question to assess. But public policy-making can only benefit from informed debate on the topic. The committee's report is a useful contribution in this respect, and is appreciated.

In so far as trade in agricultural products is concerned — and this is a topic to which the report gives detailed attention — it would appear that restricted access to the European market is not very important as few developing countries are in a position to export the products concerned and the developing countries as a whole are net importers of them. It is the effect of Community production on world markets that matters most. The joint committee's report shows that the developing countries benefit from the availability of cheap food for import because of their status as importers. Moreover, this situation is likely to persist for the foreseeable future. Offsetting this, however, there is the risk that imports, if they are released on local markets at low prices may undermine local farmers, and that governments may feel tempted to neglect the domestic agricultural sector. These factors are difficult to assess. The balance of probability would seem to suggest, however, that developing countries benefit from the European production policy provided they avail of the opportunities for cheap imports in a discriminating way and with due regard to the requirements of their domestic agricultural sector.

The report correctly points out that many of the difficulties of the food sector in developing countries are purely internal ones. These involved in particular Government policies which favour the urban sector at the expense of the rural, dysfunctional market regulation, and poor input, credit, extension and marketing services, together with insufficient technological advance, particularly in the case of the crops and farming systems that matter in the poorest countries.

Difficulties caused by increasing population density on the land have also been a problem. However, there now appears to be a trend in many countries towards improving the environment in which agriculture operates, despite the real hardship that this can impose on the urban sector, including poor people in the urban sector. Developing countries deserve encouragement and support in these efforts. It is also reasonable to hope that additional outside support will be made available in the context of these efforts, as donor governments may feel that investment is likely to be more productive as a result of the changed approach. If this happens, it will help to redress another difficulty that has applied up to now — insufficient investment in agriculture, including insufficient development aid. Ireland has shown its support for increasing priority for agriculture in developing countries in recent months by joining those developed countries that agreed to contribute to the World Bank's special facility for sub-Saharan Africa and to make an advance payment to the International Fund for Agricultural Development; the amounts concerned were £1½ million and just over £200,000, respectively. In addition, the third Lomé Convention, which has significantly increased emphasis on agriculture, was concluded under the Irish Presidency of the Community last year; development aid funds to be transferred under the convention amount to approximately IR£6 billion. This would be over a five year period.

A particular aspect of agricultural production in developing countries considered by the committee was the possibility of competition between food crops and export crops such as coffee and tea. This is naturally of interest to people in developed countries as it appears to involve themselves. There will inevitably be a degree of competition as land and other resources must be devoted to one sector or the other. It seems to me, however, that this is unlikely to be a significant factor in the food security situation of the developing countries, especially in so far as the poorer countries and people are concerned. It seems more likely that the policy and other factors will generally have most influence thus making it likely that both sectors will perform well, or badly, depending on those factors, rather than having a situation of one sector performing well at the expense of the other because of competition for resources.

Despite certain hopeful developments, however, it is ominous that the current trend is still towards increasing food deficits, and the committee are right to warn that, unless the situation improves very significantly, food crises will be a recurring phenomenon.

The committee surely have the balance just right when they say that for a fundamental solution to the food problems of developing countries local production must be relied upon for the most part but that, for so long as food crises exists, food aid must be provided. The committee's discussion of the potentially harmful side-effects of food aid is useful. I take the point that one should not succumb to the "seductive simplicity" of thinking that the surplus food situation in Europe can be married to the deficit situation in Africa, thereby solving two problems at once. The correct analysis is that the European food surpluses are a particular manifestation of Europe's wealth, and the famine in Africa is a particular result of that continent's poverty. The inescapable moral conclusion to be drawn from this is that the wealthy continent must help the poverty-stricken one. But it does not follow logically that the most appropriate means of helping is by transferring the particular products that happen to be in surplus in the Community. Rather, the nature of the problems in Africa must be studied and appropriate forms of assistance designed. Nevertheless, I agree with the committee's conclusion that the potentially harmful side-effects of food aid can be avoided thus permitting a valuable role for this form of assistance; and that, in any case, these possible side-effects cannot be a consideration at time of famine when the alternative to food aid is allowing people to starve.

In so far as emergency food aid is concerned, the House will be aware that, following initiatives of the Irish Presidency, culminating in the Dublin Castle European Council last December, the Community and its member states decided on a significant increase in food aid by agreeing to provide 1.2 million tonnes of cereals between then and the next harvest in the countries concerned, later this year. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that it now seems likely that this target will be achieved and, indeed, exceeded. As part of Ireland's participation in this exercise, the Government have in recent months sent more than 4,000 tonnes of cereals to Ethiopia and Sudan, and several hundred tonnes of milk powder to Mozambique.

The other main policy question addressed in the joint committee's report is the financial provision for Irish development aid. The committee have performed a useful service by discussing the quality of aid as well as the quantity, and by referring to the constraints that exist as regards increasing the quantity. This is not to suggest for a moment that attempting to improve the quality of aid can be a substitute for increasing the quantity, or that the constraints to growth are such that significant increases are not possible. On the contrary, I believe that the constraints are in practice being overcome, and that the increases in the level of aid over a number of years are such that successive Governments can feel they have made a worthwhile contribution. But it is a fact that over-concentration on the question of quantity in public discussion has sometimes meant that quality has been overlooked or, perhaps worse, dealt with in a superficial way. In the circumstances, I welcome the committee's indication that they intend during the current year to examine the aid programme in some depth. I would like to assure the committee of my full co-operation in this regard.

At the same time, I accept the committee's argument that the quantity of aid provided is commonly taken to be an indicator of a developed country's commitment to helping less-developed countries. For this reason, the Government accept the United Nations target of aiming to provide 0.7 per cent of national income as aid; and efforts will continue to be made to progress as fast as possible towards the achievement of this target. Starting from a small base, the level of Irish aid has increased steadily as compared with that of other donors. In 1983, which is the last year for which full statistics are available, the level of Irish aid, as a proportion of national income, was equivalent to 61 per cent of the level of the main donor countries; in 1974, it had been only 15 per cent. The story told by these figures is that the level of Irish aid had continued to increase steadily throughout the recession although that of other donors has levelled off. Moreover, it is assured that this increasing trend will be continued in the coming years, thanks to the provisions of the national economic plan, Building on Reality. In accordance with the plan, our aid will increase from about £38 million this year to £50 million in 1987. This rate of increase is substantially faster than that projected for public expenditure generally, almost four times. This is the first time ever that a guaranteed level of funding has been committed for a number of years into the future. In addition to facilitating the continued expansion of our aid programme, this provides an orderly framework for planning and management. This aspect of the matter is much appreciated by the practitioners involved in implementing the programme.

I quite take the committee's point that it would be desirable if funding could be guaranteed for an even longer period into the future. Efforts will continue to be made to achieve this although, as the House will appreciate, there are obstacles to be overcome. I hope to be in a position to give an assurance in this regard in the future on the situation that hopefully will arise in the continuation in office of the Government after the next election. I agree completely with the committee's comments about the need to continue to support the multilateral aid agencies. These agencies are enormously important to the developing countries, although the Irish contribution to them is the element of our aid programme in which there is least public interest at home. In this connection, the House will be interested to learn that the Government hope to finalise arrangements soon for a contribution of some £2.7 million by Ireland to an increase in the capital resources of the World Bank. This is in addition to the contribution of £1.5 million, mentioned earlier, to the bank's facility for sub-Saharan Africa. The Government intend to continue to pursue a positive attitude towards attempts to increase the resources of the multilateral agencies; and we are ready to pay our share of such increases. Thanks to the provisions of the national plan, it should be possible to do this whilst simultaneously increasing the share of the total aid programme allocated to the bilateral aid programme.

To sum up in relation to the level of our development aid, I accept completely the committee's argument that it would be preferable to achieve faster progress. I have not in the past tried to conceal the fact that my own preference would have been for greater increases. This will continue to be my approach in the future as well, but it should be recognised also that creditable progress has in fact been made.

The final matter dealt with in the committee's report, the need to reduce disincentives to service by Irish people in developing countries in the matter of social welfare entitlement and so on, gives rise to no disagreement at all. Efforts are continuing in this regard. The House will be aware, for example, that some further progress was announced in the context of the recent budget. I am confident that the various difficulties involved will be solved in time even though, because of the administrative complexities involved, it is not possible to make dramatic progress in the short run.

In conclusion I should like once again to compliment the committee, their able chairperson, Deputy Nora Owen, and, particularly on this occasion, the members of the committee from this House, on the valuable contribution their work is making to the level of understanding and debate of these important questions. The level of interest shown by this House in development questions is also gratifying. Any support or encouragement it is in my power to provide will certainly be available to the committee at all times. In my opinion it is vital that Members of the Oireachtas are well informed about these matters, not least because the Oireachtas has given its approval to the provision of £158 million over the last ten years as aid to developing countries, in the course of approving departmental Estimates and relevant legislation.

In this connection, I was pleased recently to assist in facilitating a fact finding visit by members of the committee to our aid programmes in Lesotho and Tanzania. I hope that this can become a regular and frequent aspect of the committee's work as there is no substitute for first-hand knowledge. I look forward now to hearing the contributions of Senators to this debate.

I do not intend to speak at any great length on this but I will make a few observations. The ground has been well covered by the various speakers and there is very little left to be said. I welcome the report and I congratulate the Minister on his statement. It struck me while he was speaking that it might be a good idea from time to time that information concerning these matters, especially aid, be communicated in some way to the schools. It should become part of our school children's education to try to get them to understand that we are internationally concerned and that we are doing something about the problems that confront the deprived or disadvantaged areas in the world. We are not neglecting our responsibilities.

I agree with Senator Brendan Ryan when he said it is not a question of charity but one fundamentally of satisfying justice. We have not shirked our responsibility. The Minister has pointed out how our aid programme — financially that is — has gone up while other countries have levelled off. Since 1974 it has gone up from 15 to 61 per cent. It is with justifiable pride that I listen to statements like that and it was with pride that I read the committee's report. The report is meticulous, thorough and well thought out. A great deal of energy and work must have been put into it and I congratulate the people who worked on it.

The process is an ongoing one. I gather that there is no political vetting or political yardstick by which a recipient government can be measured. That is as it should be. I also got a clear and definite impression that we are aiming to help the poor through the channels of whatever government is receiving the aid. Aid on a long term basis is a very complicated business. It must be done pragmatically. It takes two forms. As Senator Michael Higgins asked, did we have to wait until there was a famine in Ethiopia to get concerned? We did not have to wait; we should not have to wait. Anybody who knew anything about Ethiopia could have foretold what would happen. It was known that the famine was going to happen. Responsibility for the neglect in Ethiopia lies at the door of the former rulers of that country. They had lorries and they had food that was not sent to the stricken areas because they did not have proper roads. There was no infrastructure or communication system. Those things should have been remedied years ago either by the Government in Ethiopia or by the pressure of international opinion on them. Italy was there one time but it did not do very much in that field.

The colonial exploitation period of time in history can also be held responsible for the situation. The most notorious example is the Belgian Congo. That is enough about that because we are talking about something we are welcoming. We are proud of what is being done. Aid takes two forms. One is the short term aid. We meet that in an emergency situation. We reacted properly, as did the other countries, when the Ethiopian famine arose and problems surfaced in Sudan and so on. The long term form of aid is the important one. This is the area where the underlying structures have to be tackled so that famine does not occur again. It involves education, training and retraining. It involves assistance to build hospitals, technical and technological colleges, universities, the whole process of proper husbandry and diligent and intelligent farming. This process will take years to produce the desired result and we know that. I am glad to see that referred to in the report.

In 1962 I was a member of a trade union lobbying committee at the United Nations, seeking an amendment to a human rights proposition. We discussed with American and French trade unionists in Washington and New York the question of how best to assist developing countries. The view I took then from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to the American AFFLCIO was that the best way would be long term plans for assistance in the educational and farming fields and other areas towards producing a properly balanced economic position in underdeveloped areas. Quick aid is important when it is required but long term planning is what is required to assist these countries in the proper manner.

Our response has been good. I am satisfied that the Government are doing their best and the figures reveal that the percentage of aid has climbed from 74 to 83 per cent. The whole question of interrelationship between nations assisting one another should absorb more time and energy. It is nearly an obscenity to consider that the two biggest powers in the world in the arms race are preparing for a nuclear war. If one-quarter of the money being spent in the arms race was spent in the form of aid we are talking about it would be better. It would be a wonderful idea if these two powerful influences would stop this obscene war mongering. They should not keep fighting their ideological war in places like Nicaragua and Afghanistan and keep their ideological pursuits to words. It is not so bad to the Americans and the Russians, but to the people in Central America and Afghanistan it is a bad thing. Those countries are exporting their ideological differences. They will have to be told to stop this. It is not a responsible attitude. This conflict of good and evil in the world is there to be seen.

What we are doing in aid programmes is good; what they are doing is evil. There is a tremendous conflict between what we are doing in the aid programmes — they are doing their bit also although the Russians are not doing so much — and this war mongering. They should stop the war risk and pay attention to the developing countries. They should aid them in whatever way they wish.

On the question of political vetting and scrutiny as to what kind of governments these people have it is not our business. It is quite right to say that we should try to assist those countries to help their poor. We should help them uplift their standard of living and satisfy our own moral responsibility in the field of aid programmes.

I am glad to have the opportunity to speak on the report which covers 1984. At the outset of this debate I should like to compliment the Taoiseach for taking the decision when first appointed to assign one of his Ministers of State to have special responsibility for development and aid. I want to compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, on the great momentum and progress he has achieved in bringing about a greater awareness of our responsibility as a supposedly civilised sovereign State to help the less developed countries and the people who are suffering famine and drought. Indeed, the Minister's concerted effort has brought about a greater measure of visible support from the public. That was very evident last year when the horrors of the famine in 14 African countries were starkly brought to our notice

Much is being done as is obvious when one looks at the amount of money and food aid that is being produced by the world food programme, the FAO and by the European Community. In terms of both public aid and trade, the European Community is the single largest economic partner of Third World countries. Besides its overall activities to encourage development the Community has established special relationships with a range of countries in the Third World. Eight countries in the southern Mediterranean and the Middle East, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, signed trade, technical, financial and industrial co-operation agreements, between 1976 and 1977, providing, among other things, for free access for their manufactured goods to the Community market, with customs concessions for certain agricultural products, and financial aid, including grants and European Investment Bank loans, totalling some 1,015 million ECUs.

There are at least 65 African, Caribbean and Pacific countries. Those regions signed the Lomé convention in 1975. That convention was renewed in 1979 and in December 1984. The convention frees the signatories from customs duties on 99.5 per cent of their exports to the Community. Technical and financial aid will be given by the Community for a three year period of almost 6 billion ECUs in the form of grants and loans under special conditions from the European Investment Bank.

In Asia, from 1974 to 1976, the Community concluded non-preferential trade co-operation agreements with countries of the Indian sub-continent, from Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. This shows the great commitment of the Community of which we are very much a part. In Latin America, mentioned already in the course of this debate, the European Commission has recently proposed a substantial strengthening of relations between the Community and ten Latin American countries. In 1982 the sum set aside for co-operation with Central America was increased to more than 100 million ECUs through new programmes for rural development and restructuring. The fundamental principles of the Community's external policy are the preservation of free trade and the development of the Third World. Its aim is to promote the broader interests of the Community's citizens in a troubled world where the Community, if given the means, can speak with a louder voice than any individual member state.

I should like to compliment the joint committee on the excellence of their report and the work they have put into their tasks. I should like to quote a paragraph, entitled Development Education, from the report:

The importance of development education is self-evident, for Governments can pursue appropriate policies towards developing countries only if the public appreciate what is involved. Yet it is difficult to impart such an appreciation to Irish people because of their great remoteness from conditions in the Third World. The matter is also technically complex involving as it does decisions on the message one wishes to convey, the means of conveying it to an audience that is interested but, only up to a point, the selection of target groups, the need to avoid preaching to the converted and so on. The committee believes that this area merits priority not only as regards money but also, and perhaps more importantly, as regards an appraisal of the possible approaches. It is also thought to be self-evident that public representatives have a special responsibility in regard to development education.

To quote my genial colleague Michael D. Higgins, as a frequent or tarted-up tourist, or more often than not a browned-off delegate, I was glad to see the joint committee send out a deputation to visit some of the many Irish development aid programmes. By their visit they will strengthen the resolve of the committee to fight for and secure a greater budgetary commitment for the aims of the committee and Ireland's role in the development of the Third World.

I was disappointed at the media's treatment of Members who gave their time and energy to see the problems for themselves. No matter what one reads, or is told, or what one learns about the Third World, the problems of deprivation, under-development and starvation it does not sink in until one sees it for oneself. With some Oireachtas colleagues I attended the annual IPU conference in Togo whose capital city, Lomé, is better known because it lends its name to the great convention signed in 1975. In 1987 the centenary year of the Inter-Parliamentary Union will be celebrated. When I had time after returning to read the misinformed statements in the media and hear some of the comments on radio it clearly demonstrated to me a tremendous lack of information by a very professional Irish media, the national press, television and radio. They zoomed in on a mythical £20,000 expense account. I do not know where the figure came from and I do not know what the trip cost. Without knowing what was going on, it obviously had escaped them that the Oireachtas has been represented at these meetings for over 60 years. My first reaction was, do the Irish media think that we should not go to an under-developed or poor African country to attend a meeting which was discussing world famine and debt repayments? Those topics are very important and crucial to the problem the House is discussing today.

The media may feel that we should resort to a policy of self-sufficiency and reactivate an isolationist policy here. I would not agree with that, because it is evident from the response of the Irish people who contributed more than £20 million to Concern, Trócaire and other organisations that the Irish people care and wish to play their part to ease the burden on the people in the developing countries. The fact that the meeting was in a poor African country is no reason why the Oireachtas should not have contributed to the proceedings on world hunger and debt repayments. It was a busy conference and the warm weather did not make it any easier to put in the long hours of work. We made many important and lasting contacts which will be of benefit to the countries. We made contacts not only with parliamentarians but with missionaries, youth corps volunteers and students.

The visit of the joint committee's delegation to see at first hand the ODAs projects, especially in Lesotho is of critical importance. It means a greater commitment from committee members and will lead to greater support for the Minister in his budget requirements in the years ahead. I want to compliment the committee for their wide view. I agree with their assessment, as I have quoted.

The big problem with many Europeans is that when we look at African or Third World developing problems we are inclined to assess the situation and suggest European or Irish type solutions, very often forgetting the ethnic and cultural considerations. Senator Lanigan dealt at length with aspects of crop husbandry. Ghana, a relatively prosperous and well developed former UK colony, have legislated against farmers burning the grass and have imposed fairly strict penalties for that. They also encourage through the process of education every person to plant at least one tree per year. That is important and it must be borne in mind with the food aid programme that is necessary. The two great problems in assisting the African sub-continent to feed its growing population are to halt or slow down the march southwards of the Sahara desert and to reactivate the hydrological cycle which is so important. Part and parcel of the natural phenomenon is the reintroduction of afforestation. That takes a certain amount of finance and education and the provision of the wherewithal to do it. If we are going to expect African peasants to change their traditional husbandry and their modus operandi then it must be replaced by something that is available to them and something that they can afford.

The idea would be to supply, perhaps through co-operatives, a modern tractor with a rotavator, which would possibly be the fastest and perhaps the best way of clearing and cultivating the land, but that begs the problem of importing to some remoter areas the fuel necessary. Later the problem of spare parts would arise, and the mechanics and the expertise to keep the machines in working order. If the cheapest possible type of tractor, a Ford or the old TE or diesel Ferguson, a very simple type of machine, which could easily be maintained could be incorporated into those remote areas the village population would be in a position to grow sufficient food for themselves more easily and perhaps more profitably.

The importance of replacing the ancient and damaging cultivation process is very fundamental. Rather than as one sees there fairly large and expensive modern tractors, which have five or six times more horse power than is needed to do the task that these machines I observed were performing, some of the multinational machinery producers might design a machine more suitable to their needs.

Special grant aid for co-op projects should be more readily available. We ought to remind the missionaries and our voluntary workers that some grants would be made available through the Department of Foreign Affairs for those special co-operative efforts. For many years the missionary fathers, sisters and brothers have been doing exactly this kind of work in their own way and with tremendous results. The size of the area to be tackled, even with their resources, makes it mind boggling to see how the aid can be brought to so many parts of Africa at one time. We read that food aid is being distributed this year to 17 different African countries. There are 52 African countries altogether and 17 of them need an input of food aid from the world food programme, from the EC or from the bilateral aid programmes of so many other countries.

Famine is the short term problem, but is inside the long term and super problem of equipping the indigenous population to once again be able to provide for themselves and to tackle the underlying causes of under-development. When we consider external trade and the balance of payments difficulties that all of these countries experience we must bear in mind that the vast majority of these countries external tradewise would be single commodity countries, or single crop countries. That is an added complication, more especially if the market for that single crop is open to the law of supply and demand and the fluctuations that come from year to year.

It is of tremendous importance that in relation to countries in those categories of either single crop or single commodity economies that GATT, the EC or whatever trade bodies are doing the negotiations should make a special concession, write in some kind of a guaranteed price structure for them. I know that that is easier said than done. Nevertheless, if we are serious about assisting these countries and setting them free and with as much independence as possible on the international trade market, then we must take into account fully the disadvantages they must surmount.

We admire the great work done over many years by the large body of dedicated priests, brothers and sisters, especially from Ireland, who have experienced great difficulties and hardships. Last month I met two Divine Word missionaries who were purchasing a couple of jeeps for their development project. One would think that when these people were working for nothing in a foreign country there would be special concessions for them. Even to buy something like that, the red tape they have to go through is absolutely unbelievable.

One has to sympathise with the frustrations of these people in trying to assist the local population, without any great appreciation. I know, from speaking to the people from the American volunteer corps whom we met on a couple of occasions out there, that they also experienced the same frustrations. It is a slow process but it is certainly one of education, patience and understanding. Very special measures should be adopted, by the Community especially, to assist the poorest countries. Even though there are many under-developed countries, nevertheless there has to be someone at the bottom of the table.

The Minister should take an interest in Chad, which is very under-developed and is not afforded much sympathy from the countries surrounding it. It has not any great infrastructures. I hope that the European Community will take a special look at Chad. I note in the monthly World Food Programme News that the problem of Chad appears to be greater than anywhere else. We do not hear so much about it because we have not any missionaries there and since they are more French orientated they do not come into our sphere of influence or interest. I would like the Minister at EC level to support any special measures that may be brought up because they are the worst off at present.

Greater efforts should be made to encourage more modest budgets on armaments in all of those developing countries. Looking at the budget in a London publication, which is an encyclopaedia of African economies, it is sad to see where many of these countries, with huge problems that they are tackling or not tackling in feeding their populations, find it necessary to allocate up to 50 per cent of their budgets to maintain armies and armaments. This is difficult to understand, but they feel they must have the wherewithal to defend themselves.

There must be a greater transfer of technology and a greater provision of technical education facilities. The stabilisation of commodity prices especially for those countries with one crop or one commodity economies is of the utmost urgency. We need special measures to lighten the debt burden and stabilise the exchange rates. When one advocates something like that one leaves oneself open to the insinuation that we are asking for all the debts to be wiped off. I am not saying that many of the loans and the borrowings of those poorest countries should be renegotiated and should be so structured as to bring them within the capacity of the developing countries not only to borrow but to repay as well. If those people who control international finances find that many countries who have either starvation problems, famine problems or problems of under-development are not able to meet their loan repayments, and the people in charge will not provide them with the facilities, this would be greatly regrettable.

We would want to aim at ensuring that the International Monetary Fund divides its basket of loan facilities yet again for those poorest countries, the 14 African countries who are in the greatest and most dire need. There should be a special category opened for them so that they can be encouraged to borrow for long term productive purposes and grant aid put in with it, so that they will be able to borrow on an equal basis with more fortunate countries.

It is important that all these countries should be encouraged to get into the ordinary systems of working and they should not feel they are the recipients of charity. That is not the way to do business with any business partner. It ought to be possible to bring up an ordinary commercial deal with very preferential terms to assist and to encourage those countries. While we must at all times recognise and bear in mind the different cultures of all those countries the criteria and the conditions we lay down should not impinge on those but only strive to introduce such new practices as will be very clearly of great benefit to their communities.

We express great sympathy and concern for the citizens of those under-developed countries especially those in the famine stricken regions. We should, when thinking of the mass of suffering humanity that we read about so often, spare a special thought for the physically and mentally disadvantaged in those countries. I want to pay a special tribute to the Cheshire foundation and the Ryder foundation, in which I am happy to make a very small and humble contribution, for their trojan work in 14 or 15 African countries, especially for the last two years in Ethiopia. The volunteers who work for the disabled in those most difficult circumstances make a great sacrifice and their contribution to humanity is all the greater. The inspiration that Mother Theresa of Calcutta, Lady Sue Ryder, Group Captain Leonard Cheshire and so many other trojan workers give to the Concern people and to the volunteer forces is of crucial importance.

It is easy to say to the Minister that we ought to meet our UN target in the budget. I compliment him on the commitment that he has written into the national plan, Building on Reality. Are we prepared to meet the resultant increase in taxation? I believe we are but maybe many would prefer to see some saving under some other heading. The point I should like to get across is the fact that we do our best, everybody tries to get on and we all complain about the taxation we have to pay. When we see people who have absolutely nothing but the sun to keep them warm we realise how well off we are. They are lucky if they have a piece of cardboard to stretch their bones on at night time.

We, by world standards are in the top 30 or 40, expressed in incomes per head of the population. The Minister corrects me and says we are the 26th wealthiest nation in the world. When you look at statistics such as the percentage of houses in the Republic of Ireland that have services such as water and sewerage then we are either first or second in the world. We are a well off country. We have accepted a Christian way of life and we have had the benefit of good education and facilities. We must be prepared to share and contribute. A great way would be to encourage people to go as volunteers for a definite one or two years tour of duty to those countries to give of their expertise. In saying that and in asking people to go we do not treat the returned people so well. It is very sad, when one finds a boy or girl in the prime of life giving one or two years voluntary service working and helping people to equip themselves to obtain a much better living standard, when they come back, unless they are on secondment to these countries, it is difficult for them to find jobs and they must join the queue. Very often they do not get any credit for being away.

The Minister should address himself to this problem. It is good experience for people to work amongst people who have so little and yet remain so cheerful. If they come back after devoting perhaps the most fruitful and best years of their lives in such a charitable and Christian way, the least we can do is to provide for them and recognise their contribution to humanity. I hope the Minister will be able to tackle that matter with his colleagues in the Departments of Social Welfare, Labour, Health and Education. Many of the people going abroad are doctors, nurses, paramedics and when they come back they are much better people after their experience.

The Minister should endeavour to have a greater percentage of Irish aid being expended through Irish missionaries and volunteers, all of whom can have co-operative projects designed to make the population more independent and selfsufficient. I would like to remind the House of the huge amount of aid and finance being made available not just through the European Community. The resources available to the world food programme since its inception, including pledges for the period 1985-86 stood at $5,959,500 million. There was $4,480,600 million spent on commodities, $1,478 million in cash and services and a further $592 million worth of food and grain was made available to the programme by the signatories of the food aid convention. Contributions to a total value of $1,108 million were made available to the programme under the International Emergency Food Reserve. When one looks at those mind-boggling amounts of money and food aid and knows that one tenth of the world population are under-nourished it gives one a better idea of the huge problem of deprivation in the world. We are talking here of quite a modest contribution. I would like to compliment the Minister on providing £44 million this year. It is a sizeable contribution in Irish terms but in tackling the world problem in the underdeveloped regions is only a drop in the ocean. I wish the Minister every success in what he is doing.

I welcome the opportunity to say a few words on this committee's report. I am a member of the committee and I would like to put on the record my satisfaction in having worked over the last year and a half and discussing the whole problem of development co-operation and world hunger. We always had a very varied and interesting agenda. In the latter part of 1984 we started working on our report which is today before the House. I would like also to put on the record my appreciation and that of the other members, of the work of the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, who is with us today and Mr. Martin Greene who during the formative period of our report was Clerk to our committee.

The general purpose of the committee was to examine Ireland's role in the area of overseas development aid and look at aspects of that. We had a very comprehensive brief. We looked at Ireland's role going back to 1974, after Lomé, when we established official assistance overseas. In 1974 our contribution in that year, just before the Lomé Convention, was £1.5 million. This had risen to £34 million last year and our direct ODA contribution this year amounts to something like £38 million. I am also delighted to see in Building on Reality that by the end of 1987 the figure will have reached £50 million. This represented about 0.23 per cent of GNP in 1984 and compared with expenditure in the OECD countries generally it represents 0.36 per cent. One could make the argument that, generally speaking, most OECD countries are better than we are, but in a sense it is regrettable that our contribution is not as great as theirs is on average generally. Indeed it is to be regretted that we have not been able to meet the UN target of .01 per cent. However, one must always be aware of the constraints which the Government have to work within.

The expenditure of £38 million on overseas development aid directly is a very large sum of money. Of course, looked at in the only relevant context in which it can be looked at, in terms of what it represents as part of our gross national product, it is a mere pittance.

The committee found one of our major roles was to make people aware of the part Ireland must morally play in overseas development aid to countries inflicted with famine and so on. There is a dearth of information in this country about what our role is. I hope that in the long term the major effects of this committee and our work will be a greater awareness among the Irish public at large about what this country is doing and should be doing. We must bear in mind that the good reputation of Ireland abroad very often has been brought about by the work of our missionaries, both lay and religious. Strangely, throughout the country at large, there is not a great awareness of what these people do and, there is not an awareness that the Government should have a role to play in development co-operation especially with poor countries.

Many people would say, "Why should we spend, say £38 million this year on poverty overseas when there is so much deprivation in society here?" The committee, I am glad to say, go above that. It is stated boldly that we have a moral responsibility to concern ourselves with the predicament of so many relatively newly independent countries in Africa and elsewhere who have large proportions of their population on the verge of disaster and in some places on the verge of catastrophe due to famine.

I know many people would blame African leaders for the situation within their own boundaries, for the complete lack of any agricultural food production strategy or policy. To some extent this is true. Too many recently independent countries are spending far too much of their available resources on urban development and pay little attention to rural and agricultural development. One might, I suppose, attempt to understand the policies of this direction because as the cities overcrowded and spilled over and while the country depopulated governments came to take the soft option by directing available funds to city development, very often to allay the possibility of civil unrest in cities. I would submit that housing people in these situations in these countries, housing them in situations where they have no productive work, no productive role, usually in a new and very often in an alien environment, is no answer and is certainly no substitute when most of those people are migrants from the bush of the countryside. They have no tradition really of urbanised life and their only tradition is of the rural life. They have experience of farming at least at subsistence level. It would be far better if the political nettles could be grasped and those people sustained in their rural situations by incentives given by market supports and other measures to establish them as food producers.

The comment is made in our report and it is quoting an FAO report named "Potential Population Supporting Capacity in Land in the Developed World" that the Third World has the technical capacity to feed populations very much greater than those now there. That is a comment on the capacity now there. Can you imagine what it would be like if only a little of the technology, of the know-how and the scientific applications etc. that nowadays are so commonplace at the level of primary agriculture throughout the developed world by some means could be transferred to the most afflicted countries? This country and indeed all donor countries must continue to impress upon all governments where food shortages and famines are occurring and likely to recur that they must undertake policies rather like India had to undertake — very courageously — in the late sixties or in the early seventies, and that was to shift a greater measure of their resources away from urban spending to rural development, specifically in the area of food production. So, we must impress upon them the need to reorientate their development towards agricultural production. This can only be done — and the report states it — in tandem with those countries in the northern hemisphere who are now over-producing food at an enormous rate. We are keeping it in storage very often while it decays and deteriorates. It is an essential plank of what we call the North-South dialogue.

A greater transfer of financial resources, a greater transfer of technical resources and of scientific resources, must be made to these under-developed countries. Africa alone has enough natural resources and enough comparative advantages to feed a continental population three times its present size. This takes into account its natural disadvantages of drought, which will always be there, flooding and, indeed, poor soil types. Long term policy, may I repeat, has to be directed to this aim of helping each country in a food-deficit situation into developing their own comparative advantages through education, through resource transfer and perhaps through adjustments in the terms of trade to the extent that barring some absolute catastrophe, they will be able to reach a level of development sufficient either directly or indirectly to feed themselves.

However, those few remarks are all directed towards the hoped-for long term, and I now return to the situation on the ground in many countries at present because that is the urgent problem facing them and facing us at this time. The situation in at least six major African countries along the central belt — by and large — of Africa at the present time is absolutely chilling. This is despite an awakening in the world's conscience about the situation there and what is happening now and indeed what has been happening there for years. Despite all the sympathy and all the pledges of support, of food aid etc., and despite a world-wide discussion and debate on the problem — and that has come at least a decade late; it began really last summer as a result of reports of famine in Ethiopia — the situation in countries worst afflicted by emergencies becomes more and more chilling every day.

I should like to quote from a report recently published by the Food and Agricultural Organisation of the United Nations. It is entitled "Food Situation in African Countries Affected by Emergencies" and it was published in April of this year. While it is very comprehensive in the way it deals with problems within the boundaries of 21 countries in trouble, it points out the particularly acute problems which exist in six of the worst affected countries, and, with your permission, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, I will quote from the report on one country, Chad, about which my colleague Senator McDonald expressed some views in an earlier address. It says:

In Chad, the food supply situation in both the Sahelian and Sudanian zones remains critical, due principally to the lack of trucks, limited transit capacity of Douala port, and the protracted discharge and transit problems in Apapa, (Nigeria). Of the estimated 1.5 million people (out of the total population of 4.3 million) reported to be in need of food and, only 470,000 persons are presently being assisted. The victims consist of displaced persons, including not only those who have migrated because of the drought and civil strife, but also those who remain on site but have exhausted their food resources, and persons recently relocated in wadis which have some agricultural production potential. A rapidly deteriorating nutritional situation among these groups can be arrested only by exceptional measures by the international community in the weeks to come.

In Ethiopia, the serious food supply situation continues especially in the northern regions where an estimated 5 million people are at risk. The logistic problems remain acute; the offtake from the ports is constrained by the lack of vehicles, while distribution in the interior is impeded by security problems. Measures currently in operation, including the supply of port offloading equipment to increase the capacity of the port of Assab and the delivery of long-haul trucks and spare parts, may succeed in increasing the logistic capacity to 1.3 million tons in 1985, compared to the cereal import requirement of 1.7 million tons and the estimated food aid requirements of 1.5 million tons. But the major problem facing Ethiopia today is that of 961,000 tons of cereals already pledged by donors for 1985, less than half will have been received by the end of April, and the shortage of long-haul trucks threatens delivery of the remainder on schedule. Shortage of seeds and other inputs are likely to adversely affect the planting of the 1985 main season crop.

The report goes on:

In Mali the food supply situation remains critical due primarily to logistic constraints, including lack of trucking capacity between Abidjan and Bamako. Substantial southward migration of affected people and livestock is reported. Against the total food aid need of 375,000 tons, pledges so far amount to 254,000 tons. However, only 92,000 tons had been scheduled for delivery by the end of April, leaving 162,000 tons of the pledged amount to be delivered in May and June before the rainy season begins and an uncovered requirement of 121,000 tons. Again, there is an urgent need to expedite the deliveries of the aid already pledged, taking due account of logistic constraints. The present seed supply is precarious and replenishment of seed stock is badly needed for the planting of the 1985 crop in June.

The food supply position in Niger continues to deteriorate. Nomadic herds in the Departments of Agadez, Zinder, Diffa, Dosso, Tahout and Niamey have been badly affected by drought, sometimes decimated, and have migrated southwards to escape the threat of famine. An estimated 400,000 persons are displaced. The closure of the Nigerian port of Apapa for transit cargo destined for Niger has disrupted the otherwise carefully planned import programme. There is an urgent need to find alternative means to expedite the delivery of pledges already made and to meet the shortages of seeds required for planting in June.

Mozambique is another country where the food supply situation remains critical, especially in the southern and central provinces which were affected by heavy rains and floods in February. An estimated 2.5 million people are affected by food shortages, mostly in rural areas, of which 1.7 million persons are considered to be critically affected. Although weather conditions have been generally favourable for crop development, farming operations have been disrupted by lack of inputs and the effects of civil strife; it is now clear that exceptional food shortages will continue in Mozambique during 1985-86 for which further external assistance will be required.

Finally, the food supply position is extremely serious and deteriorating rapidly in Sudan. Although at the end of April, donors had allocated 1.1 million tons against the food aid requirement of 1.4 million tons, a major cause for concern is the fact that over 80 per cent of these pledges have not yet been received. Exceptional measures to deliver the pledged amounts are needed before the onset of rains in June if widespread deaths and starvation are to be avoided.

That is a pretty chilling report on just six countries in Africa, worst afflicted by this awful curse of famine, food shortage etc. It also points to the logistic problems within each country, bottlenecks in ports, no roads to deliver food and all kinds of bureaucratic problems. Speaking from a bench in a parliament so far from them, one wonders can one do anything. I might say to the Minister with direct responsibility in this Government that he might continue to bring the situation to the attention of relevant authorities, whether they are in those countries or whether they be the donor countries who may not be doing as much as they might to ensure that their foods are delivered to the proper destinations. I ask the Minister to do everything possible to ensure that the problems commented upon in that report do not remain as constraints preventing some of the most wretched people in the world from getting just basic food aid.

I would like, in concluding, to pay tribute to all the Senators who have remained here this afternoon and to all those who have spoken and, indeed, to the Minister for what has now become his usual commitment to debate on development issues. I should like to refer very briefly to some of the comments that have been made.

I must, in the first instance, apologise for introducing an element of confusion by quoting from the Minister's report on development co-operation and the joint committee's report. I would like to address myself to the point made by Senator Lanigan and to tell him that it is the hope of the members of the committee that when this report with the blue cover, which, as he pointed out to us is a document with a staple, is processed by the Houses of the Oireachtas it will end up with, perhaps, if not the same elegant appearance as the Minister's report, something approaching it.

Senator Lanigan made reference to the background to the whole context of hunger and he very graphically drew attention to the failure within our methods of assessing the effects of hunger. He said it was difficult to envisage from the reports of the people who were drugged coming out of the camps at the end of World War II what the effects were. I agree with him that we could not graphically enough describe the effects that hunger is having on populations. I recall meeting some people — there is a member of my own family in Ethiopia at the present time — describing the responses that one has to develop in oneself in deciding who will be fed or who will be admitted for treatment and so on.

Senator Lanigan is correct in emphasising that problem. In relation to his emphasis on the structural basis of the problem, I note his point. He supported the recommendations in the report that had come from Comhlámh. I would just like to say that I find it difficult to go with him in relation to the allocation of proportionately more of our resources to multilateral agencies over which we might have a lesser policy influence rather than an increased one.

Senator Bulbulia addressed herself specifically to the report which was before the House, concentrating on its three main aims of financial aspects of Irish official development assistance. The discussion that the committee has had during the year is reflected in the report on the food question, very particularly the question of world deficits occurring concurrently with surpluses at the European level and the difficulties that arose and suggestions that she had to make for the transfer of food surpluses to areas of deficit. She correctly emphasised its importance and that the committee included in its report its response to some of the recommendations which were made to it in relation to the condition of returned development workers.

I want to explain to Senator Bulbulia the reason for the unanimity of the people who made submissions in the appendix to the report. Perhaps it is that in this report the committee have fallen between two stools. On the one hand, if one were to list the people who made submissions exactly as they were, one would then be perhaps required to give the fullness of their submissions, whereas I think it is probably fairer to this House to try to abstract the sense of several submissions which dealt with generic concepts of the same kind. Senator Bulbulia paid tribute, and I do also, to all those who are working abroad. In my own remarks I concentrated on the development workers and on the volunteers, for example that we recently visited in Lesotho. Lest it be thought exclusive I would like to mention how much we learned from the workers we visited in Iringa. The Minister also visited those areas. The workers emphasised to us how much they appreciated the Minister's very helpful visits in recent times.

Senator Bulbulia referred — and it is a point which was taken up by another speaker — to the attitude in the public service towards making it possible for people to serve abroad and the attitude of the private sector. In relation to the response of the public sector in regard to circumstances of special leave and tenure and increments I think that one may hope to see more gains made in the short term than in the private sector.

Looking through the newsletters of the Confederation of Irish Industry for some time, I must confess to being disappointed at their overall approach towards the whole question of development. The Confederation of Irish Industry newsletter, for example, of July 1981 had as its leading article "The role of Irish Industry in Development Co-operation". It was an extraordinary document. On the one hand, it suggested the appropriateness of using our development aid programme to sell Irish commodities abroad, but in the same document it said that;

Ways must be found to minimise damage to those sectors likely to bear the brunt of increased competition from exports from developing countries.

On 30 August 1981, following that, an article in The Sunday Tribune took up the theme and it said “imports of clothes from developing countries have caused chaos in the Irish manufacturing sector”. In the “Comhlámh” news, commenting on these two documents in their report No. 10, September 1981, they had this to say:

In 1978 the top eight developing countries, mostly the newly-industrial countries such as Taiwan, Korea, Brazil, Hong Kong, etc. supplied only 4 per cent of all our textile imports and 5 per cent of all our clothing imports.

I very much hope that the Minister's suggestion that we should not have hysteria and that we respect facts will be brought home even to such august bodies as the Confederation of Irish Industry, because certainly the development of a constituency for development aid is not assisted by inaccurate remarks which are amplified by hysterical commentary on an insufficient basis of fact. You could summarise that newsletter, to which I make reference, as saying indeed that the Confederation saw nothing wrong at all with placing restrictions on the products of developing countries and at the same time wanting to move in on development aid, if it assisted products from this country. One can, without comment from me, draw one's own conclusions as to what that policy constitutes. That was some three or four years ago and I hope — although I have not seen as a regular reader of newsletters of the Confederation of Irish Industry any significant evolution in their thinking.

Senator Bulbulia made an important point also in relation to the contribution that education in development matters will make. That touches on an aspect of the Minister's speech in which he spoke about the development of a constituency to support development assistance in Ireland.

Senator Brendan Ryan spoke about the more global context and said something that I had at the outset stressed myself correctly, and that was the enormous contrast between the escalation in expenditure on defence, both in a global sense and in the internal sense even in recipient countries, and expenditure on development. He spoke too about the forms of aid and raised issues that went far beyond the content of aid. He spoke about the necessity — which is reasonable — of inquiring what the alternative Government would do by way of a development programme. I felt that we did not benefit from the cross exchange in response to Senator Bulbulia's comment, correctly, that the committee had been abolished in 1982. Not only is it important that we have the committee and that we have a policy and that we have a White Paper but it is important also that we have some commitment in relation to future funding at least for a few years ahead.

This brings me to the Minister's speech, which was an unusual policyoriented speech. His contribution as usual was a relatively thoughtful one. I do agree with the main three points which he made, on the questions which the committee on development co-operation have taken up, the question of insufficient food production and the transfer of European surpluses; the second issue of the financial aspects of Irish aid and the third, our need to remove disincentives to service in developing countries by Irish people on their return. We welcome the Minister's co-operation in all of these three matters. He decided, and I commend him on it, to make a contribution to what I hope will be a developing debate in relation to the overall intellectual framework for the pursuit of questions like these.

I will take this speech for the challenge that it is and disagree with him fundamentally on a number of points in it. I do agree with him that our own common humanity means nothing if side by side with comfort and relative affluence in the world we have appalling cases not only of death, poverty but degradation as well. I do share that and I do agree that the basis of development co-operation involves a philosophical commitment of that common humanity. However, I refuse to accept the idea that economics and the social sciences and political practice — in other words the usual content of the bag that is called pragmatism today — are separate from philosophy. I agree with the Minister in one part of his rejection of simplistic approaches. He and I would agree on that. Simplistic approaches lead to extremist models and extremist suggestions.

I had the experience of going through a university system here and of going through university systems in the United States and in Britain in which the common simplistic models of economics, politics and social sciences were all cast in the one mould. Indeed, one Brazilian whom I had the honour to share years of study with, Orlando Fals Borda, wrote about it afterwards when he went back to Latin America, spending half of his time in Bolivia in jail and the other half teaching in a university, that it was the "ideological spectacles" of North America studying Latin America, for example. Most of all, in the post-clericalist phase in our universities — rather its most extreme post-clericalist phase — it meant that people went to the United States and to Britain to be trained in social sciences and they came back with a bag of studies that usefully is called "modernisation theory". It had a number of assumptions that were culturally unacceptable; they were economically inaccurate and historically totally not justified at all, the idea being that you could look at countries more or less in a continuum of development with the western countries at the top and argue what were the obstacles towards the other undeveloped countries reaching this same level of development.

We were reared in the National University on a diet of Benjamin Higgins and Walt Rostaio who, more or less, had a simple analogy of the gears of a motor car. He spoke about the other countries not being able to get into "third gear" while we were cruising in over-drive. This crude intellectual property is indeed, as the Minister correctly said, an extremism, but it is an extremism of orthodoxy and an extremism of the Right which very much reflected the social class composition of the university. It also reflected the fact that they were not in touch with the countries that they were describing and that they had imposed themselves, often as visitors, on many of the countries that they were using as material for their studies.

Indeed, when I visited Latin America for the first time at the end of the sixties I saw what the effects were in the design of Mexico city, for example, where western urban planners had imposed urban planning models on that city which are responsible today for the deaths of tens of thousands of people when catastrophe strikes the city. There was no attempt made to understand urbanisation from the perspective of indigenous scholarship. There are today — thankfully — a new group of scholars, economists from Nigeria, economists and social scientists from Latin America and Asia who are writing about their own countries through their own eyes rather than through the ideological glasses of the modernisation theorists who saw it differently. I support the Minister in what I hope will be the debate for an appreciation of the complexity of things, because it is when things are made over-simple that distortions and errors arise. I would say that the greatest simplification we have had and the greatest ideological distortion we have had, have been by those who ran the third level system in the countries that trained and taught the people who look at development.

It is very interesting to look today at the structure of these courses; it is extremely important, it is something that our committee will look at because it is coming up again and again — the kind of questions arising in the coming year about what training is available, what kind of literature is available and so on. There are a number of international institutes of immense international respect that have now decided to take on these issues. The Institute of Social Studies at the Hague is one, and there are a number of others, and we must look at their training for our development workers. It is very interesting that when we were in the field a number of our development workers said that they would appreciate an orientation course that not only dealt with the language and culture but also dealt with alternative economic approaches towards the situations in which they found themselves, ones who could understand the linkages etc.

One part of the Minister's speech which is very interesting is where he spoke about a moderate view. I support him in the appropriateness of moderate views. He may have misconstrued my comments on the International Monetary Fund. None of us has any objection to the increased allocation of further resources to the international monetary and financial institutions. We powerfully argue for their restructuring and we argue against the forms of politicisation that they have taken. The House will notice I did not argue against their politicisation. It would have been an advantage if they had been politicised in the direction of being of more benefit to the least developed recipient countries. They have, in fact, been politicised in the opposite direction. They have been politicised by those who would attach conditions to their contributions as they exist and would use this to argue against increased contributions. My comments on the International Monetary Fund in relation to Tanzania and in relation to Nicaragua I would repeat. It is little less than a scandal that the straitjacket of international financial consideration in terms of debt and trade and aid are placed on these countries' logical development. When I spoke about the "when we's" I was using a caricature too.

The caricature of the needs of the developing countries is of long standing. There is an unbroken tradition in Britain from the middle of the nineteenth century to the London Evening Standard of today which caricatures the Irish as, and I quote from the cartoons of the period “the apeheaded simple Irish” and so on. The attitude against the Irish at that time was one of attributing to them undeveloped characteristics. There is a less obviously offensive set of characteristics directed against the people of the undeveloped world today. I could not but reject absolutely a new fashionable view.

The Minister spoke about the importance of not giving over one simplistic orthodoxy and replacing it by another. To suggest that the poverty of undeveloped countries of Africa is unconnected to the affluence and riches of the existing western world is to my mind markedly unsustainable. If one looks at the historic development of commodity prices, is it not one of the major ways in which not only Britain's general class but even its working classes lived on the backs of the undeveloped nations in relation to the price of primary commodities? If you look at the history of mining and the structure of international copper prices, if you look at the whole introduction of the coffee crop, for example the development by the great corporations of the movement of cattle economy from one Central American country to another, you can see that the poverty while not explainable in total terms by the industrial and commercial practices of the developed world is, in fact, the other side of the coin. I hope I put it unemotively and objectively by saying that the patterns of trade, the patterns of debt and financial relationship of the developed world to the undeveloped world have set up the necessary conditions for the poverty of the undeveloped world even if they do not explain in a sufficient sense the totality of causes of poverty at present. I want to be absolutely clear in my response, and it is a position I will argue in the committee, that any suggestion that there is no structural connection between the relative affluence and consumer level of the developed world and the underdeveloped world will, I hope, be rejected.

The Minister has helped us by asking us to rely for our models on observation rather than on preconceived ideas. The test of what I have just said will be history and the test of it will be observed fact today and that is what should guide the committee. It is the position which I will urge on the committee. It is important that we should not, because we have not a perfect system of justice in the recipient countries, hold back any aid. I agree with him on that. I think that you can fall in the other direction and do as he suggests and throw out the baby with the bathwater. If you suggest, for example, that social injustice in its structural form in terms of its access to literacy, its access to shelter, access to food, access to participation in the wider sense of the society is not at the heart of the undevelopment problem of these countries, you can minimise social injustice and distort the picture much more than you can by saying that social injustice explains all of the undevelopment problem.

In the end, the real world of ordinary people is a real world of starvation and hunger. The ordinary people in many of the countries are people who do not participate in the society. In many of the societies that are undeveloped their society is characterised by different structures and forms and compositions of elites. That is something our committee will have to look at. We are not simply a committee rattling a moneybox to see where the pennies fall out.

We have to discuss these issues and we will discuss them and we will be encouraged by the Minister's invitation to a broadbased debate. I am serving notice here unequivocally that these notions will be ones that initiate a debate rather than being the final outcome of a debate or anything like the principles that would be welcome in a White Paper. The Minister is absolutely right to concentrate on the distributional effects of aid. That is an important emphasis he has made.

I have touched on a number of other contextual factors to which he made reference. He made reference to the features of the world economy and its constraint on development. There is an argument here of immense epistemological significance, it is the question of what is the world economy. Our view is to see the world economy as an unpeopled reality, another view is to see the economy as a peopled entity in which economic instruments serve social purposes, political purposes and so on. We can debate that again. The view in the Minister's report which I quoted this morning has a contribution by Professor McAleese. Professor McAleese's views are only one view, it is not a neutral view. It is rather like saying that if you knew a firm was going to the wall you concentrated on the submitted books of two or three years earlier and you did an analysis based on the balance sheet without looking at the activity of the profit and loss sheet in financial terms or without looking at the employment record or the productive capacity of the entity in managerial or in labour terms.

This kind of view of the world economy is valuable but limited, it is not neutral in so far as it views aggregate features of world trade, world debt and international financial fluctuations in currency as if they were separate from the overall structure of the economy. From a very elegant scholar, whom I admire, it is an eloquent statement on the paucity of thought in conventional economics within the Irish university system at present, an inability to develop an economics that can take the development needs of the world within its pure view, something that reflects the collapse and decline of economics from the time when it was known as political economy. It is an example of the post Keynsian shabbiness of economics.

In relation to a number of other points in the Minister's speech which I welcome very much I think he correctly lists for our consideration the particular problems that arise when a country is at once trying to feed itself and, at the same time, trying to earn foreign exchange to purchase commodities and the manner in which these two aspects of economy can contradict each other. This provokes a question to which I made reference earlier. If the State is paying internally at a later deferred rate for its food production and people are instantly buying commodities at an inflated rate in the parallel economy, it means that the commodities within the economy get locked into the black market and you have widespread scarcities with all sorts of difficulties, some political, internally. This is not a refutation of the political system or its economy, it is a problem that can be addressed.

I am glad that Senator Connor from Roscommon correctly pointed out what is an interesting argument about the United Nations target. The Minister knows my view on it, he will have my assistance in achieving what is the joint programme, the achievement of the United Nations target by the stated year, which is 0.7 per cent of national income. Senator Connor was correctly making the point that if you take the group of countries to which the Minister made reference, and if their average is about 3.6 per cent, we were achieving 61 per cent of the 3.6 per cent which is the average. We should be glad that we are able to sustain growth in many ways, but we should be careful not to fall into the classical disease of modern econometrics, that is to use the calculation procedures as an alternative for the substance of the argument or use it to mask the fact that we are moving back from the joint programme.

I believe there is a popular assistance in this country, and perhaps this is where the Minister and I might differ. I think the Minister believes that we should nudge the constituency in favour of development aid into existence by not contradicting too many of the structural injustices which the people have brought into their own psyche. I respect that viewpoint, I differ from it. I believe it is one of the great advantages of the technology of television which reminds us that we live in a whole world that brings war and brings hunger and brings international fora before our eyes every day that we may be moved to take a quantum leap from compassion and from the comfort of our own circumstances towards broader conceptions of justice. Certainly the great shifts in history, the abolition of slavery, the emancipation of women, the widening of the franchise, were all accomplished by significant shifts rather than by gradual amendments. I welcome very much the Minister's thoughtful contribution here as providing an interesting agenda for the work of the committee in the coming year.

Senator McGonagle spoke of the scandal — it is that — of the major super powers' expenditure on armaments at a time of such great hunger and need for development expenditure. He spoke too of the tied aid and the ease with which the gift of death, the military intervention of the major powers in countries can be brought about which is in contrast to their achievements.

Senator McDonald, in a very interesting contribution, not only defended the right of legislators to live in the wide world and to contribute to international fora and develop contacts and opinions on world hunger and debt repayment, but he also raised a number of very important questions in relation to the African countries in particular. He raised something that had not been raised so far in the debate but which is present in most discussions and was present in our own discussions constantly, the question of appropriate technology and trying to develop products which would suit the indigenous needs particularly of agriculture. He spoke movingly and correctly about the fact that while we talk as if we were speaking about a homogeneous population at the receiving end of our development aid, there are differences even within the poorest, for example differences shared by the handicapped. If I were to stretch that a bit further I would say that it is probably women and children, as UNICEF reports, one after the other show, who carry the greatest burdens of undevelopment. It is they who carry the greatest burdens of hardship.

Senator Connor's contribution would have been valuable if it was only for the figures he put on record from the Food and Agriculture Organisation's report of April, which specified — so that we know and are forewarned — the magnitude of the problem that faces a number of countries. He listed six in particular. He mentioned also that the more these discussions take place the more it will contribute to public education on the development issue.

As a result of this debate I hope some mechanisms will be found and that when the curriculum reforms take place in the schools that allow political and social studies to be introduced there will be no better component of the curriculum for that subject than one section to deal with issues in development so that a whole new generation of young Irish people will start at a point very much further on than our own concerns began. I thank all the people who contributed to the debate on the motion that we note the Report of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Co-Operation with Developing Countries, 1984.

Question put and agreed to.
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